Gas now, solar later?
March 4, 2021 8:49 AM Subscribe
We are in the process of converting what we can in our home to a more friendly energy sources. Currently we have an oil boiler for heating and local utility for electric. The previous owners had a natural gas line run to the house, but no meter has been installed.
We are in process on having a solar estimate done, we have great roof exposure and feel it will likely be a good plan for the electrical side of things. The boiler is a bit more complicated. We have a relatively new boiler that can be converted to Natural Gas. Initially we thought why not get a electric boiler, but so far I have been told that the technology is not there yet and it would be smarter to convert to natural gas until an all electric solution is established.
We would also love to have natural gas for cooking, but that is a luxury in this scenario.
I just wanted some feedback on the idea of installing an electric boiler? Or something that we may not be considering?
Thanks
We are in process on having a solar estimate done, we have great roof exposure and feel it will likely be a good plan for the electrical side of things. The boiler is a bit more complicated. We have a relatively new boiler that can be converted to Natural Gas. Initially we thought why not get a electric boiler, but so far I have been told that the technology is not there yet and it would be smarter to convert to natural gas until an all electric solution is established.
We would also love to have natural gas for cooking, but that is a luxury in this scenario.
I just wanted some feedback on the idea of installing an electric boiler? Or something that we may not be considering?
Thanks
Gas is a fossil fuel, though a bit more efficient. Gas for cooking generates significant indoor air pollution. It sounds like you may be in California? Location matters quite a bit for these issues.
All states and many municipalities have energy efficiency offices; start there. Find some contractors who care about sustainability and efficiency; ask them. I'm in Maine, heat pumps(mini-splits) are the current choice for energy-efficiency, and they do cooling as well as heating.
posted by theora55 at 9:08 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
All states and many municipalities have energy efficiency offices; start there. Find some contractors who care about sustainability and efficiency; ask them. I'm in Maine, heat pumps(mini-splits) are the current choice for energy-efficiency, and they do cooling as well as heating.
posted by theora55 at 9:08 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
A previous question says southern Maine, which might make the mini split option less useful.
posted by straw at 10:13 AM on March 4, 2021
posted by straw at 10:13 AM on March 4, 2021
One option for cooking with gas is biogas: https://www.homebiogas.com/ (I haven't tried it, don't know how good that company's system really is.)
posted by sibilatorix at 10:22 AM on March 4, 2021
posted by sibilatorix at 10:22 AM on March 4, 2021
A standard electric boiler would greatly increase your heating costs because electric heating is more expensive than oil or gas heating. They are starting to make air-source heat pumps combined with a boiler, but that doesn't sound ideal for a Maine setting, and they are expensive to install.
So I would suggest you go with your first inclination. You have got a gas line and a convertible furnace already, so just hook that up. Gas will save money over oil. But it depends on the cost of the gas conversion.
Then you can consider solar as an independent decision. Maine has net metering so you can sell any excess solar electricity back to the grid, which is good for the environment. You reduce your own use of fossil fuels and for others as well if you have a surplus.
posted by JackFlash at 10:37 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
So I would suggest you go with your first inclination. You have got a gas line and a convertible furnace already, so just hook that up. Gas will save money over oil. But it depends on the cost of the gas conversion.
Then you can consider solar as an independent decision. Maine has net metering so you can sell any excess solar electricity back to the grid, which is good for the environment. You reduce your own use of fossil fuels and for others as well if you have a surplus.
posted by JackFlash at 10:37 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Many municipalities, including mine in Massachusetts, are moving to disallow gas hookups in new construction or in buildings undergoing significant renovation. We are in an urban area, and air source heat pumps are promoted as the alternative. For cooking the alternatives are electric or induction.
The climate change movement has shifted hard against natural gas in recent years; it is no longer considered part of the solution. Take that as you will.
In your place I would research the most efficient electric heating options, and then save up until I could afford one. If you have enough space, a ground source heat pump could be a good option. I know someone in the Berkshires who heats his home this way and is quite happy with it.
I would not put money into a conversion from oil to gas. That's a big investment to put into a short-term solution with limited benefits.
posted by alms at 10:51 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
The climate change movement has shifted hard against natural gas in recent years; it is no longer considered part of the solution. Take that as you will.
In your place I would research the most efficient electric heating options, and then save up until I could afford one. If you have enough space, a ground source heat pump could be a good option. I know someone in the Berkshires who heats his home this way and is quite happy with it.
I would not put money into a conversion from oil to gas. That's a big investment to put into a short-term solution with limited benefits.
posted by alms at 10:51 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
If you live in an area with a lot of snow, if you go solar, they'll end up covered during the winter. If you go all-in with electric, you need to make sure that you have enough of a connection to the grid to keep heat going during an extended period when your solar is offline or performing poorly.
posted by Candleman at 10:58 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Candleman at 10:58 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Sorry, should have stated that I am in Maine. We had someone come out to evaluate for heat pumps, but it really would benefit us in anyway.
Solar is going to work out I have a feeling, but the boiler is the main issue we will have then.
Henry
posted by silsurf at 11:17 AM on March 4, 2021
Solar is going to work out I have a feeling, but the boiler is the main issue we will have then.
Henry
posted by silsurf at 11:17 AM on March 4, 2021
Having a continuous gas supply means never being at the mercy of the oil delivery truck. By that measure alone gas should be more convenient than oil, as long as the gas infrastructure is well enough insulated that it doesn't freeze up. A large part of the problem recently in Texas was that their gas infrastructure is above ground and uninsulated, but I would hope that Maine's gas infrastructure is designed to withstand the cold.
I can't speak to the efficacy or expense of electric boilers but if you're hearing that they're not really practical, they're probably not really practical. How much of your annual electric use are you targeting with your solar installation? Do you have an estimate of how much your solar energy production would drop off in winter? Are you trying to go off grid, or just reduce your summer bills enough to offset increased winter use if you switch to all electric appliances?
posted by fedward at 11:40 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't speak to the efficacy or expense of electric boilers but if you're hearing that they're not really practical, they're probably not really practical. How much of your annual electric use are you targeting with your solar installation? Do you have an estimate of how much your solar energy production would drop off in winter? Are you trying to go off grid, or just reduce your summer bills enough to offset increased winter use if you switch to all electric appliances?
posted by fedward at 11:40 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's been a fair while since I considered the matter (~5yrs?) but iirc, an electric boiler will practically bankrupt you unless you've locked in a super-low electricity rate, even in the short term (ie., pre-solar).
Were it me, I'd go with gas boiler (possibly one that supplies domestic hot water also, like the Energy Kinetics brand), and then I'd go with induction for cooking rather than gas, counting on my eventual solar system to offset that usage.
I was a strongly pro-gas person (like, it affected my choice of which condo to buy) until I installed an induction cooktop in my current house (because the existing kitchen was electric and I didn't want the expense of running new lines). Now I [expletive] love induction, and would never go back.
posted by aramaic at 11:51 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Were it me, I'd go with gas boiler (possibly one that supplies domestic hot water also, like the Energy Kinetics brand), and then I'd go with induction for cooking rather than gas, counting on my eventual solar system to offset that usage.
I was a strongly pro-gas person (like, it affected my choice of which condo to buy) until I installed an induction cooktop in my current house (because the existing kitchen was electric and I didn't want the expense of running new lines). Now I [expletive] love induction, and would never go back.
posted by aramaic at 11:51 AM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Get an energy audit, and a plan for all your energy needs.
posted by theora55 at 12:21 PM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 12:21 PM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
A gas boiler requires very little maintenance. Pretty much none, actually, but make sure you know how to relight the pilot.
Induction for cooktops is the first and only technology to be better than gas, unless someone involved has a pacemaker. My pacemaker manual says keep 2 ft from the stove which can be done, but not by the chef.
The ultra-efficient gas boilers come with a bunch of caveats. They are very complicated, maintenance and parts can be expensive. You get the desired savings only if the engineering and installation are done properly.
posted by SemiSalt at 12:59 PM on March 4, 2021
Induction for cooktops is the first and only technology to be better than gas, unless someone involved has a pacemaker. My pacemaker manual says keep 2 ft from the stove which can be done, but not by the chef.
The ultra-efficient gas boilers come with a bunch of caveats. They are very complicated, maintenance and parts can be expensive. You get the desired savings only if the engineering and installation are done properly.
posted by SemiSalt at 12:59 PM on March 4, 2021
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. I have never heard so much about induction. We cook a LOT and do a lot of specialty cooking with unique pots and pans. Is it still true that you have to use induction made pots and pans?
We are never going to get off the grid in our current setup. We bought a house and probably in it for th elong haul, but it was previously owned by someone that wasn't really thinking about future proofing. So ours is a combination of minimizing our foot print, but accepting what we have already purchased.
The conversion is not too expensive, (and they remove the oil tank!), so it seems it is the right way to go.)
posted by silsurf at 2:22 PM on March 4, 2021
We are never going to get off the grid in our current setup. We bought a house and probably in it for th elong haul, but it was previously owned by someone that wasn't really thinking about future proofing. So ours is a combination of minimizing our foot print, but accepting what we have already purchased.
The conversion is not too expensive, (and they remove the oil tank!), so it seems it is the right way to go.)
posted by silsurf at 2:22 PM on March 4, 2021
Re: special pans for induction: many but not all existing pans will work. You can test a pan by seeing if a magnet will stick to the bottom; if it does you’re good to go. We have two objects that are aluminum and don’t work with the induction, and we manage by just putting them on top of a frying pan. (These are our whirly-pop popcorn maker and a Turkish coffee maker. I wouldn’t use this workaround for significant cooking.)
posted by wyzewoman at 2:36 PM on March 4, 2021
posted by wyzewoman at 2:36 PM on March 4, 2021
You have to use magnetic pans, and it works by heating the flat surface of the pan in contact with the hob, so woks are no good. They are as responsive as gas and as flexible as gas and not like other kinds of electric hobs at all. I can believe that there will be better solutions in 10-15 years, your gas boiler would probably last longer but you might also be in a good position to replace it then anyway.
posted by plonkee at 3:50 PM on March 4, 2021
posted by plonkee at 3:50 PM on March 4, 2021
Around me (Philly), there is an energy supplier cooperative that is doing renewable electric. They also offer renewable natural gas (RNG). Because of our infrastructure, I can directly purchase the electric, but the RNG is a more complicated "offset" thing with me still burning dinosaurs, but an industrial user consumes my purchased RNG instead of dinosaurs. I haven't done this yet because it feels like a game of three card monte, but in theory it at least reduces dinosaur extraction by the amount of my household consumption. Anyway, yay coops for fighting the good fight! Maybe there's a similar option by you.
posted by sockshaveholes at 5:57 PM on March 4, 2021
posted by sockshaveholes at 5:57 PM on March 4, 2021
Just chiming in on the induction cooktop side of the question in case it helps with your overall decision - yeah you will need induction pots and pans we had to give away some of our collection when we switched to full electric and ditched the gas connection.
The typical home gas stove has a maximum "wok burner" which outputs about 13MJ/Hour or 13,000 BTU, which is roughly equivalent to a 2kW induction hob. I say "roughly" because there's some efficiency factor there to account for the fact that a lot of heat from the gas combustion escapes into the air, while an induction stove transfers most of the energy direct into the pot itself.
My current induction stove wok burner maxes out at 4kW, and the total stove has a max output of 7.4kW (pretty much running 3 induction sites simultaneously). They get ferociously hot at the top end, especially in "boost" mode which is like overclocking one core in a quad core processor, yet they give a lot of fine control at the low end - on the dial of 1 to 15, a setting of about 7 will maintain "just" barely boiling, I rather suspect that with food thermometer I could probably get it to do sous vide as well lol. It's also got useful functions: it's got temperature sensors in the glass, so it instantly turns off if it detects overboil spillage, it turns off if the temperature gets too hot (water in the pot boils dry)... it visually warns you if the glass is hot so you don't burn yourself wiping it down... it has a simmer mode where it tries to maintain just barely boiling temps... I guess best of all, because the surface itself doesn't ever get very hot compared to a natural gas flame, you never get carbonized / dried food residue from spillage on your cooktop, the glass wipes clean easily like the surface of your smartphone, and your pots continue to look super shiny.
posted by xdvesper at 7:24 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
The typical home gas stove has a maximum "wok burner" which outputs about 13MJ/Hour or 13,000 BTU, which is roughly equivalent to a 2kW induction hob. I say "roughly" because there's some efficiency factor there to account for the fact that a lot of heat from the gas combustion escapes into the air, while an induction stove transfers most of the energy direct into the pot itself.
My current induction stove wok burner maxes out at 4kW, and the total stove has a max output of 7.4kW (pretty much running 3 induction sites simultaneously). They get ferociously hot at the top end, especially in "boost" mode which is like overclocking one core in a quad core processor, yet they give a lot of fine control at the low end - on the dial of 1 to 15, a setting of about 7 will maintain "just" barely boiling, I rather suspect that with food thermometer I could probably get it to do sous vide as well lol. It's also got useful functions: it's got temperature sensors in the glass, so it instantly turns off if it detects overboil spillage, it turns off if the temperature gets too hot (water in the pot boils dry)... it visually warns you if the glass is hot so you don't burn yourself wiping it down... it has a simmer mode where it tries to maintain just barely boiling temps... I guess best of all, because the surface itself doesn't ever get very hot compared to a natural gas flame, you never get carbonized / dried food residue from spillage on your cooktop, the glass wipes clean easily like the surface of your smartphone, and your pots continue to look super shiny.
posted by xdvesper at 7:24 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Gas for cooking will be obsolete old dirty tech soon. Go electric now; everyone else will be there sooner or later (and admire your prescience).
posted by notyou at 7:31 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by notyou at 7:31 PM on March 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nice Atlantic explainer of the situation, from the POV of city planner types.
posted by notyou at 5:05 AM on March 5, 2021
posted by notyou at 5:05 AM on March 5, 2021
I spend my working life looking at energy transition to net-zero and have a particular interest in buildings / heating related emissions.
First, consider that if you already have a gas line installed and your oil boiler can be cheaply converted, that is a 30% emissions intensity reduction that you can make immediately.
The technologies that I would typically look at for domestic heating are:
Gas boiler
Oil boiler
Solid fuel boiler
Air source heat pump
Ground source heat pump
Electric boiler
Electric boiler (with storage heater and time of use)
A heat pump system will do the most over the long term to decarbonise your heating but air source is not compatible with older radiator or forced air systems (I think New England has more forced air than we have here in the Old England). Ground source is a better fit for older houses but very expensive. The challenge with HPs is that they are most efficient with low output temperatures which means either a lot of radiant surface, a lot of air flow in a forced air system, and/or a house with outstanding thermal properties.
Electric boilers will cost you a fortune in electricity costs, only somewhat made up for by using storage heaters and a time-of-use electricity tariff.
In your situation I would probably go for the gas conversion to get the emissions reductions now but not switch to gas cooking - not so much because of emissions but to avoid lock-in for a later conversion to a HP system.
posted by atrazine at 7:46 AM on March 5, 2021
First, consider that if you already have a gas line installed and your oil boiler can be cheaply converted, that is a 30% emissions intensity reduction that you can make immediately.
The technologies that I would typically look at for domestic heating are:
Gas boiler
Oil boiler
Solid fuel boiler
Air source heat pump
Ground source heat pump
Electric boiler
Electric boiler (with storage heater and time of use)
A heat pump system will do the most over the long term to decarbonise your heating but air source is not compatible with older radiator or forced air systems (I think New England has more forced air than we have here in the Old England). Ground source is a better fit for older houses but very expensive. The challenge with HPs is that they are most efficient with low output temperatures which means either a lot of radiant surface, a lot of air flow in a forced air system, and/or a house with outstanding thermal properties.
Electric boilers will cost you a fortune in electricity costs, only somewhat made up for by using storage heaters and a time-of-use electricity tariff.
In your situation I would probably go for the gas conversion to get the emissions reductions now but not switch to gas cooking - not so much because of emissions but to avoid lock-in for a later conversion to a HP system.
posted by atrazine at 7:46 AM on March 5, 2021
I have a hard time with heat pumps for individual home because the ground loop is ridiculously expensive (I had a quote for $15k). If you have a friendly neighbor (or a few) who would be willing to share that cost (each ground loop can support many homes) then they make more sense. So instead of $15k, I spent $700 to replace my broken natural gas heater. Even in the dead of winter, my gas bill is only about $150. The payback period on a heat pump was essentially infinite. The A/C savings on a heat pump vs a traditional A/C system were also really vague by the salesman. I personally think individual solar also scales better than a heat pump, so if you have $15k for a solar vs heat pump, I'd choose solar.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2021
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2021
Maybe you're already aware of this, but unless Maine is very different from Illinois (which it could be), the size of solar system you can get installed on your home will be limited by how much electricity you typically consume. The utilities don't want you powering the whole neighborhood, they want you powering your own house and that's it.
So if you get your assessment back and the plan is to put panels on say, only the south-facing plane of your roof because that will cover your current electricity consumption, then you should probably hold off getting solar installed until you've transitioned everything you might conceivably want (range, heat pump, boiler, whatever) to electric. Then get an updated design based on your higher electricity consumption so they can install a larger system by adding panels to the east- and west-facing roof planes, or possibly using higher wattage panels. If, on the other hand, you get your assessment back and you've already maxed out your roof, then my comment is irrelevant, go ahead and get your solar asap.
posted by gueneverey at 3:10 PM on March 5, 2021
So if you get your assessment back and the plan is to put panels on say, only the south-facing plane of your roof because that will cover your current electricity consumption, then you should probably hold off getting solar installed until you've transitioned everything you might conceivably want (range, heat pump, boiler, whatever) to electric. Then get an updated design based on your higher electricity consumption so they can install a larger system by adding panels to the east- and west-facing roof planes, or possibly using higher wattage panels. If, on the other hand, you get your assessment back and you've already maxed out your roof, then my comment is irrelevant, go ahead and get your solar asap.
posted by gueneverey at 3:10 PM on March 5, 2021
Converting your boiler from oil to gas not only reduces your carbon footprint as described above. It reduces your emissions of sulfur and carbon particulates by a factor of 10. Healthier for you and your neighbors.
posted by JackFlash at 6:48 PM on March 5, 2021
posted by JackFlash at 6:48 PM on March 5, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mskyle at 9:07 AM on March 4, 2021 [2 favorites]