I have become my mother, episode 45
March 1, 2021 10:13 AM Subscribe
One of the grade school kids I sometimes read to in my new country of residence has started to remark on my physical imperfections. I actually find this funny in an ironic sort of way, because I did the same thing to my mom when I was little. But in the year of our Bog 2021, this doesn't seem like something I should be allowing to let slide. Help this non-mom negotiate what could be a teaching moment.
I am in a country where I use my second language quite a bit. I'm proficient but not fluent.
On occasion I read to a couple of little girls, probably around 1st or 2nd grade age. One of them, we'll call her T, is direct to a fault, and apparently I resemble her grandmother.
Well, T has started to note my (many) physical imperfections. I don't detect a mocking or malicious motive at all... I did the SAME THING to my mom at that age, frequently! And it was allowed to go by.
Well... several decades of feminist education later, I don't think it's something that should be allowed to go unremarked. Eventually T will turn that eye in upon herself, and / or will think that it's OK to do with other kids.
How to handle? The parents are usually around doing something else when this happens. And I should reiterate that I'll be using language #2. Finally, I haven't raised children or ever really been responsible for them.
My first thought of course is to say something to T the next time it happens, but she's little. Saying "it's not nice to do that" seems so lame, and doesn't really get to the point... but I'm not sure how much more sophisticated the message can get before she won't understand it.
I could indicate that when we see that stuff in others, we'll start seeing it in ourselves, and people are more than the sum of their imperfect parts. So it's best to try to see people's good features AS WELL AS their imperfections.... and to remark on only the good unless you are asked for feedback on the imperfections.
My reading to the kids is completely voluntary and I actually enjoy it, for what it's worth. I'd prefer that it continue as would the others involved. However, a temporary timeout on the reading, should I say something and she continue to do it, might also be in order. I can always pull T's mom or dad aside and say something, emphasizing that it's not a reflection on them and that I myself did it when I was her age.
Complicating factor: the second little girl is much quieter and seems more fragile, and I don't want to do anything that would cause her to take it on.
I am in a country where I use my second language quite a bit. I'm proficient but not fluent.
On occasion I read to a couple of little girls, probably around 1st or 2nd grade age. One of them, we'll call her T, is direct to a fault, and apparently I resemble her grandmother.
Well, T has started to note my (many) physical imperfections. I don't detect a mocking or malicious motive at all... I did the SAME THING to my mom at that age, frequently! And it was allowed to go by.
Well... several decades of feminist education later, I don't think it's something that should be allowed to go unremarked. Eventually T will turn that eye in upon herself, and / or will think that it's OK to do with other kids.
How to handle? The parents are usually around doing something else when this happens. And I should reiterate that I'll be using language #2. Finally, I haven't raised children or ever really been responsible for them.
My first thought of course is to say something to T the next time it happens, but she's little. Saying "it's not nice to do that" seems so lame, and doesn't really get to the point... but I'm not sure how much more sophisticated the message can get before she won't understand it.
I could indicate that when we see that stuff in others, we'll start seeing it in ourselves, and people are more than the sum of their imperfect parts. So it's best to try to see people's good features AS WELL AS their imperfections.... and to remark on only the good unless you are asked for feedback on the imperfections.
My reading to the kids is completely voluntary and I actually enjoy it, for what it's worth. I'd prefer that it continue as would the others involved. However, a temporary timeout on the reading, should I say something and she continue to do it, might also be in order. I can always pull T's mom or dad aside and say something, emphasizing that it's not a reflection on them and that I myself did it when I was her age.
Complicating factor: the second little girl is much quieter and seems more fragile, and I don't want to do anything that would cause her to take it on.
The line I use with my kiddo is "We don't make comments about other people's bodies.". It not said as a chastisement, I try for a more even tone. If we need to get into more detail, I tend to talk about how people's bodies come in all different shapes and they are really personal. So in order to avoid the possibility of making people upset we "don't make comments about other people's bodies.". I use that with other folks kids too - tho I may restate it slightly.
I agree with phunnieemee - assuming it's neutral is key. For me that keeps me from responding in a way that's too harsh.
posted by machine at 10:29 AM on March 1, 2021 [23 favorites]
I agree with phunnieemee - assuming it's neutral is key. For me that keeps me from responding in a way that's too harsh.
posted by machine at 10:29 AM on March 1, 2021 [23 favorites]
Yeah, for all my niblings I used the approach above. When they were young (pre-kindergarten) and would comment on my body I would either just congratulate them on recognizing the body part and/or neutralize the association. i.e. "your belly is bigger than mamam's belly" "Yeah it is, it's also soft. My feet are smaller than your mom's feet, though. What about you?" and then we could talk about sizes or shoelaces or whatever.
It worked well, I am officially the gay aunt who is known for shutting down beauty standards, but also my niece comes to me for makeup advice or to show me a look she worked hard on. I feel like this is the best "feminist" balance that you can have - to think for yourself and not let expectations control you, but to also recognize that "girly" things aren't automatically dumb.
Also to add this hilarious conversation i had with her on the way to the aquarium when she was like 4 or 5. She turned to me in the car and points at my rather large chest, and goes "you can get milk outta those, huh?" and I had to turn away for a moment to not die from laughter, but i turned back and said "Yes, but only when you're having a new baby". "Oh, neat".
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:17 AM on March 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
It worked well, I am officially the gay aunt who is known for shutting down beauty standards, but also my niece comes to me for makeup advice or to show me a look she worked hard on. I feel like this is the best "feminist" balance that you can have - to think for yourself and not let expectations control you, but to also recognize that "girly" things aren't automatically dumb.
Also to add this hilarious conversation i had with her on the way to the aquarium when she was like 4 or 5. She turned to me in the car and points at my rather large chest, and goes "you can get milk outta those, huh?" and I had to turn away for a moment to not die from laughter, but i turned back and said "Yes, but only when you're having a new baby". "Oh, neat".
posted by FirstMateKate at 11:17 AM on March 1, 2021 [15 favorites]
You refer to the parts of your body that she is pointing out as "imperfections" and say that you don't think she is doing this to be malicious. Is it possible that a piece of what's going on is that YOU feel some discomfort about your body? Could this be turned around to model the celebration of all parts of your body? Especially since you say she thinks you resemble her grandmother, it's possible that she means this is a compliment?
Her: "You have wrinkles!"
You: "I do! I love them because they remind me of my mother. And you have brown eyes just like my grandmother!"
It's true that, as you say, when we see things in others, we can start to see it in ourselves. Show her that her body, like all bodies, is beautiful and wondrous.
posted by mcduff at 11:32 AM on March 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Her: "You have wrinkles!"
You: "I do! I love them because they remind me of my mother. And you have brown eyes just like my grandmother!"
It's true that, as you say, when we see things in others, we can start to see it in ourselves. Show her that her body, like all bodies, is beautiful and wondrous.
posted by mcduff at 11:32 AM on March 1, 2021 [7 favorites]
Would radical honesty be appropriate here? "Yes, I have xxx, and sometimes I feel embarrassed about it when other people notice." and then maybe open the conversation to things that the kid feels this way about her own body? Making it ok to feel those emotions and to own them, while also giving the kid an empathy demonstration, without just handing her an arbitrary etiquette rule to follow and/or making her feel like she's done something wrong with no understanding of why.
posted by heatherlogan at 11:44 AM on March 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 11:44 AM on March 1, 2021 [3 favorites]
Best answer: One gift we can offer kids is guidance about bodies that doesn't reiterate toxic beauty norms. You could begin by challenging yourself to reconsider words like "flaws." T's comments are unpleasant for you not because they point out objectively bad things about your body, but because comments about your body aren't fun for you due to social conditioning that says there's one right way to have a body and you're doing it wrong (by, like, existing past age 22). "We don't talk about other people's bodies," is great because it's so straightforward. A more tailored version for this context might be, "I don't have fun when other people talk about my body." Maybe you share it like this:
T: Your forehead is all wrinkly, like my grandma's.
You: Hmm. Maybe! But you know, I don't have fun when people talk about my body or how I look. You and I have so much fun together, right? I love reading you stories. I look forward to it all week. And I'd rather read you this story or see more of your drawings than talk about my wrinkles. OK?
[the following week...]
T: Your hair is so frizzy today!
You: Hmm. Maybe! Remember how last week I said I don't have fun when people talk about my body or how I look?
T: Yeah?
You: Yeah! So it's not fun for me to talk about my frizzy hair. Let's rewind this conversation and try again. Do you want to try moving backwards with me? OK! [silly moving backwards pantomime] Good afternoon, T! I'm so happy to be together! Do you have any new drawings you want to show me?
(You could also practice having conversations with T and her sister where you all identify something that is fun for you, and something that isn't, and then you all practice bringing up the un-fun topic and the other person sets a boundary--"It's not fun for me when people ask me about X, can we talk about Y instead?")
posted by theotherdurassister at 12:05 PM on March 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
T: Your forehead is all wrinkly, like my grandma's.
You: Hmm. Maybe! But you know, I don't have fun when people talk about my body or how I look. You and I have so much fun together, right? I love reading you stories. I look forward to it all week. And I'd rather read you this story or see more of your drawings than talk about my wrinkles. OK?
[the following week...]
T: Your hair is so frizzy today!
You: Hmm. Maybe! Remember how last week I said I don't have fun when people talk about my body or how I look?
T: Yeah?
You: Yeah! So it's not fun for me to talk about my frizzy hair. Let's rewind this conversation and try again. Do you want to try moving backwards with me? OK! [silly moving backwards pantomime] Good afternoon, T! I'm so happy to be together! Do you have any new drawings you want to show me?
(You could also practice having conversations with T and her sister where you all identify something that is fun for you, and something that isn't, and then you all practice bringing up the un-fun topic and the other person sets a boundary--"It's not fun for me when people ask me about X, can we talk about Y instead?")
posted by theotherdurassister at 12:05 PM on March 1, 2021 [11 favorites]
I think you need to identify what culture you are dealing with to get accurate advice. The social norms for commenting on others’ appearance vary widely and what this kid is saying might well be within acceptable behavior. If so, you can still discourage it, but your strategy will need to be different.
posted by bq at 12:09 PM on March 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 12:09 PM on March 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I think you need to identify what culture you are dealing with to get accurate advice.
Parents are Mexican, professional class (one parent is a doctor who until the pandemic split his time between Mexico and the US).
posted by Sheydem-tants at 12:56 PM on March 1, 2021
Parents are Mexican, professional class (one parent is a doctor who until the pandemic split his time between Mexico and the US).
posted by Sheydem-tants at 12:56 PM on March 1, 2021
At my kid's 5 yr birthday party, she and her friends ran breathlessly up to me in the backyard where I stood chatting with other parents, and then my kid grabbed my belly roll, jiggled it, and said, "WOOOBBBBLLLYYYYY!" and they all ran off, giggling, to lick their soap bubbles or whatever. Easily the best memory I have from her birthday that year.
My kid wasn't pointing out an imperfection, she was jiggling my wobbly belly. But hey, let's imagine even if she had said something like, "Why is your belly so wobbly? Why isn't muscly and flat and perfect?" - i.e. there is an explicit statement that my belly is "imperfect", that would still only be an opportunity to demonstrate to her that imperfect != bad or shameful. Sure, it might be a good idea to mention that it's rude to comment on other people's bodies, but I would also go out of my way to encourage her to continue commenting on MY body to me, just so I could normalize over and over and over again to her that look how happy mommy is with her wobbly belly and hairy moles on her back and wrinkly skin, look how lovable "imperfect" is. I realize it's an immense privilege that I genuinely feel happy and comfortable in my imperfect body - but I do think the work to get to feeling comfortable is well worth doing. Someone who is comfortable in their body would invite their child's questions and satisfy their curiosity. If we're just telling kids that it's rude to talk about bodies communicates shame even when we don't mean to.
posted by MiraK at 1:07 PM on March 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
My kid wasn't pointing out an imperfection, she was jiggling my wobbly belly. But hey, let's imagine even if she had said something like, "Why is your belly so wobbly? Why isn't muscly and flat and perfect?" - i.e. there is an explicit statement that my belly is "imperfect", that would still only be an opportunity to demonstrate to her that imperfect != bad or shameful. Sure, it might be a good idea to mention that it's rude to comment on other people's bodies, but I would also go out of my way to encourage her to continue commenting on MY body to me, just so I could normalize over and over and over again to her that look how happy mommy is with her wobbly belly and hairy moles on her back and wrinkly skin, look how lovable "imperfect" is. I realize it's an immense privilege that I genuinely feel happy and comfortable in my imperfect body - but I do think the work to get to feeling comfortable is well worth doing. Someone who is comfortable in their body would invite their child's questions and satisfy their curiosity. If we're just telling kids that it's rude to talk about bodies communicates shame even when we don't mean to.
posted by MiraK at 1:07 PM on March 1, 2021 [6 favorites]
My kid wasn't pointing out an imperfection, she was jiggling my wobbly belly.
Please continue to teach kids that it is inappropriate to grab other people's body parts without permission. Also, speaking only for myself, I deeply appreciate parents teaching their kids not to comment on other people's bodies. It's great to also teach them that everyone is different and it's not "bad" to have body parts that are one way or another, but if that can be done in a way that says, "it's fine to notice all the different types of bodies but bodies belong to other people so let's not talk about them unless the other people bring it up themselves." Or something along those lines.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:50 AM on March 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
Please continue to teach kids that it is inappropriate to grab other people's body parts without permission. Also, speaking only for myself, I deeply appreciate parents teaching their kids not to comment on other people's bodies. It's great to also teach them that everyone is different and it's not "bad" to have body parts that are one way or another, but if that can be done in a way that says, "it's fine to notice all the different types of bodies but bodies belong to other people so let's not talk about them unless the other people bring it up themselves." Or something along those lines.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 8:50 AM on March 2, 2021 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Call it out in the moment: "Well, lots of people have stretch marks! But it's rude to comment on people's bodies, okay?" That acknowledges the comment and gives the kid a reason not to repeat it. I would only go to the parents if the kid is making the statement in that first way like they have been taught to make an unkind judgement. Otherwise--it's just a kid being a kid, and you have the opportunity to teach social context for certain comments.
And there are other kinds of things kids say that seem unkind but really aren't, they're just stupid. Because kids have limited life experience. Until quarantine forced me to grow it out, I always had really short hair. Occasionally kids would say things like "YOU HAVE BOY HAIR!" The one I'd like to trot out is "but I'm a girl, and it's my hair, so how can it be boy hair?" Depending on what the kid is actually saying, there are a few ways to go. But generally: assume it's neutral, provide a social correction.
posted by phunniemee at 10:25 AM on March 1, 2021 [16 favorites]