When was Howdy Doody Time, really?
March 28, 2006 12:52 PM Subscribe
Before there was videotape there was Kinescope, a process that took hours to process, and could not be transmitted electronically. So how did New York based live television shows get shown "live" in different time zones?
In other words (I'll assume) Howdy Doody Time! was always 5:00PM. If the show was live in new York at 5PM EST, how could it be live in California at 5PM PST?
In other words (I'll assume) Howdy Doody Time! was always 5:00PM. If the show was live in new York at 5PM EST, how could it be live in California at 5PM PST?
I don't know specifically in the case of Howdy Doody, but I believe some shows did one live broadcast at 5 and another at 8. Those in the middle of the country would have to deal with having it an hour earlier or later than the east or west coasts.
posted by kindall at 12:58 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by kindall at 12:58 PM on March 28, 2006
Those in the middle of the country would have to deal with having it an hour earlier or later than the east or west coasts.
Uh, we still do.
posted by delmoi at 1:10 PM on March 28, 2006
Uh, we still do.
posted by delmoi at 1:10 PM on March 28, 2006
um, did you check wikipedia? That source contradicts your assumptins.
Even though the quality of these recordings left much to be desired, they were initially the only way for nationally broadcasting the live performances of early television from New York or other originating cities to stations not connected to the network, or to repeat a broadcast for stations in different time zones. Not only prestige programmes were handled in this way, but regular news programs also. By the mid-fifties the use of this crude and expensive method of time shifting meant that the television industry's film consumption surpassed that of all of the Hollywood studios combined.[1]posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 1:13 PM on March 28, 2006
I though they did it twice. Though the Howdy Doody entry states "Originally an hour on Saturdays, the show moved to Monday through Friday, 5:30-6:00 pm EST in 1948" so maybe not.
posted by rschroed at 1:16 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by rschroed at 1:16 PM on March 28, 2006
Wasn't all television broadcast live back in the day? Kinescope helped to make it possible to better manage programming for networks and to get more eyes in front of sets.
posted by FlamingBore at 1:21 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by FlamingBore at 1:21 PM on March 28, 2006
The Honeymooners was one of the first television programs to make use of the DuMont Electronocam system. It was similar to the Kinescope, only the 35mm film captured what was actually coming through the TV camera lens rather than recording from a screen.
Which is why the Honeymooners DVD sets actually offer pretty good quality.
Anyway, I was under the impression that live television simply aired at different hours depending on time zone. Hence the phenomenon of 8, 7 Central. That's also why programs like "The Late Show" and "Saturday Night Live" don't use specific times in their titles.
If a program had to be live and air at the same hour in multiple markets there's no way around doing it twice. This holds true today as well. ER tried this a few years ago and performed the episode twice; once for the Eastern and Central time zones, and then again for Pacific. As I recall, one scene involved a Cubs game and the later broadcast featured a different score the the first.
posted by aladfar at 1:36 PM on March 28, 2006
Which is why the Honeymooners DVD sets actually offer pretty good quality.
Anyway, I was under the impression that live television simply aired at different hours depending on time zone. Hence the phenomenon of 8, 7 Central. That's also why programs like "The Late Show" and "Saturday Night Live" don't use specific times in their titles.
If a program had to be live and air at the same hour in multiple markets there's no way around doing it twice. This holds true today as well. ER tried this a few years ago and performed the episode twice; once for the Eastern and Central time zones, and then again for Pacific. As I recall, one scene involved a Cubs game and the later broadcast featured a different score the the first.
posted by aladfar at 1:36 PM on March 28, 2006
Response by poster: The wiki entry seems to contradict itself. How did they get them real-time to stations not connected to the network?
However if Wiki is correct then the other time zones had to suffer through the lower quality of Kinescopes?? That don't seem right.
posted by Gungho at 2:15 PM on March 28, 2006
However if Wiki is correct then the other time zones had to suffer through the lower quality of Kinescopes?? That don't seem right.
posted by Gungho at 2:15 PM on March 28, 2006
How did they get them real-time to stations not connected to the network?
They couldn't get them there in real time to stations not on the network; they'd have to courier a film there for later broadcast.
the other time zones had to suffer through the lower quality of Kinescopes?
Pure conjecture here but given the (compared to today) generally crappy picture quality of the golden age (and much, much smaller screens) I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a big issue among the general viewership.
posted by Opposite George at 4:11 PM on March 28, 2006
They couldn't get them there in real time to stations not on the network; they'd have to courier a film there for later broadcast.
the other time zones had to suffer through the lower quality of Kinescopes?
Pure conjecture here but given the (compared to today) generally crappy picture quality of the golden age (and much, much smaller screens) I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a big issue among the general viewership.
posted by Opposite George at 4:11 PM on March 28, 2006
This might be dumb, but: Couldn't broadcast towers simply relay the signal originating from NY from tower to tower and time zone to time zone? Of course, the signal would lose quality but as George said it probably wouldn't have mattered much.
posted by travosaurus at 5:37 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by travosaurus at 5:37 PM on March 28, 2006
Actually, gungho, all television pictures, whether kinescope or videotape or live, can be transmitted electronically -- isn't that the very nature of broadcast television? Or am I missing a nuance here?
Don't know the answer specifically, but I think shows were just aired live everywhere. Programming and the science of scheduling weren't exactly advanced back then, and there was also a much greater population concentration east then too. ...Although there's a kernal of my brain making me recall that those old playhouse productions were performed twice, once for the east coast, once for the west. Nothing to back it up, though.
posted by incessant at 5:50 PM on March 28, 2006
Don't know the answer specifically, but I think shows were just aired live everywhere. Programming and the science of scheduling weren't exactly advanced back then, and there was also a much greater population concentration east then too. ...Although there's a kernal of my brain making me recall that those old playhouse productions were performed twice, once for the east coast, once for the west. Nothing to back it up, though.
posted by incessant at 5:50 PM on March 28, 2006
travosaurus,
Couldn't broadcast towers simply relay the signal originating from NY from tower to tower and time zone to time zone?
You got it. The networks used leased coax lines and also (later?) microwave towers to transmit shows from city to city. This was a fancier version of what the radio networks did (they used high-quality leased phone lines, I think.) I don't know the implementation specifics/history, but presumably the "off network" stations the Wiki talks about were ones where the cable or micro links hadn't been set up yet.
Anyway, this network, as you surmise, would have been used for live, or rather, simultaneous program distribution. As the wiki suggests, the kinescopes would have been handy for time-shifting or repeats and also as a way of getting programs to the off network stations (probably it took some months/years for the smaller markets to get on the distribution network.)
And I, like incessant, have nothing to back this up with apart from hazy memories of a book I had as a kid that followed the production of the fictional "Jack Hope" show, and additional info picked up over the years. Google has failed me on better/more reliable specifics of how this all worked.
posted by Opposite George at 6:17 PM on March 28, 2006
Couldn't broadcast towers simply relay the signal originating from NY from tower to tower and time zone to time zone?
You got it. The networks used leased coax lines and also (later?) microwave towers to transmit shows from city to city. This was a fancier version of what the radio networks did (they used high-quality leased phone lines, I think.) I don't know the implementation specifics/history, but presumably the "off network" stations the Wiki talks about were ones where the cable or micro links hadn't been set up yet.
Anyway, this network, as you surmise, would have been used for live, or rather, simultaneous program distribution. As the wiki suggests, the kinescopes would have been handy for time-shifting or repeats and also as a way of getting programs to the off network stations (probably it took some months/years for the smaller markets to get on the distribution network.)
And I, like incessant, have nothing to back this up with apart from hazy memories of a book I had as a kid that followed the production of the fictional "Jack Hope" show, and additional info picked up over the years. Google has failed me on better/more reliable specifics of how this all worked.
posted by Opposite George at 6:17 PM on March 28, 2006
Oh, and for time-shifted distribution, the radio networks used phonograph records. They were still doing this when I was working in radio in the early 1980s -- we'd copy the record to tape before broadcasting (though a very few shows came on tape.) I imagine now it's is all completely different.
posted by Opposite George at 6:20 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by Opposite George at 6:20 PM on March 28, 2006
er, it's all
posted by Opposite George at 6:21 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by Opposite George at 6:21 PM on March 28, 2006
Some old shows were simply shot on film, like I Love Lucy, but I always understood Kinescope to refer to live shows that were filmed with a camera pointed at a TV screen as it was broadcast. But I may be totally wrong, of course.
posted by cropshy at 7:04 PM on March 28, 2006
posted by cropshy at 7:04 PM on March 28, 2006
Yes, some shows performed the live performance twice a day.
That all changed after "I Love Lucy" started performing her show on film and then other programs started to follow Desi-Lu's method.
Some live programs actually used a video camera AND a film camera simultaneously when shooting a show.
posted by SwingingJohnson1968 at 11:51 PM on March 28, 2006
That all changed after "I Love Lucy" started performing her show on film and then other programs started to follow Desi-Lu's method.
Some live programs actually used a video camera AND a film camera simultaneously when shooting a show.
posted by SwingingJohnson1968 at 11:51 PM on March 28, 2006
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posted by subtle-t at 12:57 PM on March 28, 2006