Online Japanese OCR is failing with this brief printed text from 1800...
February 9, 2021 2:45 AM Subscribe
Though it seems orderly enough, all online Japanese OCR resources are coming up short with the brief description that accompanies this lovely illustration of a kinugasatake, the Phallus indusiatus, drawn in 1800 by Kamei Kyodo. Help, please?
Response by poster: Yes, I pretty much imagined that might be an additional challenge...
posted by progosk at 3:03 AM on February 9, 2021
posted by progosk at 3:03 AM on February 9, 2021
Best answer: Note, this is not a specialty of mine (though I wish it could be! sigh). I am literate in Mandarin and Japanese (though my Mandarin is much better than my Japanese), and have studied some classical Chinese, but no classical Japanese (YET...). I gave it the old college try -- you get what you pay for :) Also, I typed it up using a traditional keyboard except for the Japanese pieces
此苔越刻魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地[1]生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細技シ[2]カチテ叢[3]生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝[4]針,如[5]苔,一裡也方言不[6]
[1] there are two marks here that I'm not sure about
[2] not sure here. my guess is a katakana character, maybe ロ
[3] this character was tough! it could even be two characters, but the one I chose seemed to make the most sense
[4] this character wasn't in my chinese dictionary, but a classical japanese dictionary says it is a classical form of 事. it's also entirely possible I transcribed the wrong character here
[5] I'm not sure what this is
[6] the final character threw me for a loop. if I had to guess, I'd guess 系
Any of this could be wrong!!!
posted by wooh at 4:59 AM on February 9, 2021
此苔越刻魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地[1]生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細技シ[2]カチテ叢[3]生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝[4]針,如[5]苔,一裡也方言不[6]
[1] there are two marks here that I'm not sure about
[2] not sure here. my guess is a katakana character, maybe ロ
[3] this character was tough! it could even be two characters, but the one I chose seemed to make the most sense
[4] this character wasn't in my chinese dictionary, but a classical japanese dictionary says it is a classical form of 事. it's also entirely possible I transcribed the wrong character here
[5] I'm not sure what this is
[6] the final character threw me for a loop. if I had to guess, I'd guess 系
Any of this could be wrong!!!
posted by wooh at 4:59 AM on February 9, 2021
Best answer: I was about to try the same thing as wooh! I only have 4 spots below (indicated with Roman letters A/B/C/D inside brackets) where I have a different guess:
此苔越 [列 A] 魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地[1]生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細 [枝 B] シ[2]カチテ叢[3]生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝[4]針,如[5]苔,一 [種 C] 也方言不 [知 D]
posted by andrewesque at 5:13 AM on February 9, 2021
此苔越 [列 A] 魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地[1]生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細 [枝 B] シ[2]カチテ叢[3]生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝[4]針,如[5]苔,一 [種 C] 也方言不 [知 D]
posted by andrewesque at 5:13 AM on February 9, 2021
Meant to add, aside from [6] (which as above I think is 知), I share all the same questions/confusion on [1] to [5] as wooh has identified above.
posted by andrewesque at 5:15 AM on February 9, 2021
posted by andrewesque at 5:15 AM on February 9, 2021
I think andrewesque's choices are correct over mine. I was zoomed in the whole time, but seeing zooming out and seeing his choices, I'm pretty sure he is correct!
posted by wooh at 5:24 AM on February 9, 2021
posted by wooh at 5:24 AM on February 9, 2021
Best answer: I think [1] is 二 (katakana "ni")
I think [2] might be 細技ヲワカチテ
Agree that [3] is 叢
After 針 isノ如シ
[5] is ノ
Agree that [6] is 知
Some of these are katakana forms that are *very* different from the modern printed forms, but based on my smallish amount of experience reading handwritten classical Japanese I think they're reasonable guesses.
此苔越列魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地二生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細枝ヲワカチテ叢生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝針ノ如シ苔ノ一種也方言不知
posted by Jeanne at 5:58 AM on February 9, 2021
I think [2] might be 細技ヲワカチテ
Agree that [3] is 叢
After 針 isノ如シ
[5] is ノ
Agree that [6] is 知
Some of these are katakana forms that are *very* different from the modern printed forms, but based on my smallish amount of experience reading handwritten classical Japanese I think they're reasonable guesses.
此苔越列魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地二生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細枝ヲワカチテ叢生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝針ノ如シ苔ノ一種也方言不知
posted by Jeanne at 5:58 AM on February 9, 2021
Response by poster: thanks so much, this is shaping up well, seems to me - as regards the translation of this transcription, will GoogleTranslate / DeepL be competent with what I guess is older Japanese vocabulary?
One thing:
[2] not sure here. my guess is a katakana character, maybe ロ
that character is not showing up for me, neither on my computer nor on my phone... is there another way to mark it here?
posted by progosk at 6:00 AM on February 9, 2021
One thing:
[2] not sure here. my guess is a katakana character, maybe ロ
that character is not showing up for me, neither on my computer nor on my phone... is there another way to mark it here?
posted by progosk at 6:00 AM on February 9, 2021
as regards the translation of this transcription, will GoogleTranslate / DeepL be competent with what I guess is older Japanese vocabulary?
No; you really need to ask someone who actually knows classical Japanese.
that character is not showing up for me, neither on my computer nor on my phone... is there another way to mark it here?
If it's showing up as just a square for you, it's showing up correctly; that's how the character is supposed to look. But I think the character is actually ワ.
posted by Jeanne at 6:09 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
No; you really need to ask someone who actually knows classical Japanese.
that character is not showing up for me, neither on my computer nor on my phone... is there another way to mark it here?
If it's showing up as just a square for you, it's showing up correctly; that's how the character is supposed to look. But I think the character is actually ワ.
posted by Jeanne at 6:09 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: 此苔越列魚沼郡田澤村,內拮挭ヶ原,陽地二生ズ苗,高サ六七分斗ソ細枝ヲワカチテ叢生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝針ノ如シ苔ノ一種也方言不知
DeepL identifies this to be Chinese (despite setting it to Japanese), and translates it as: "This moss is a type of moss that is not known in the local language, but is grown on the ground in the village of Tazawa in Yonuma-gun, and is six or seven minutes high" - which sounds pretty spot on, apart from "moss" for fungus, which is interesting in itself ;-), and "minute" for... inch/centimetre?
(Google set to Japanese gives: "This moss, Tazawa-mura, Uonuma-gun, Kyogahara, Yochi Niseizu seedlings, Takasa 67-minute toso twigs crowding, winter snow crowding, white green color, hard needles Uonuma dialect ignorance", whereas set to Chinese gives: "This moss runs across Tazawa Village, Uonuma County, within the antagonism of the original, Yangdi Ersheng ズ seedlings, high ソ six and seven points ソ twigs ヲワカチテ clustering su Dongxue ling テ its color white green hard キ㕝针ノ如シタノ I don’t know a dialect", so, yeah, nice try Google :-D ...
posted by progosk at 6:09 AM on February 9, 2021
DeepL identifies this to be Chinese (despite setting it to Japanese), and translates it as: "This moss is a type of moss that is not known in the local language, but is grown on the ground in the village of Tazawa in Yonuma-gun, and is six or seven minutes high" - which sounds pretty spot on, apart from "moss" for fungus, which is interesting in itself ;-), and "minute" for... inch/centimetre?
(Google set to Japanese gives: "This moss, Tazawa-mura, Uonuma-gun, Kyogahara, Yochi Niseizu seedlings, Takasa 67-minute toso twigs crowding, winter snow crowding, white green color, hard needles Uonuma dialect ignorance", whereas set to Chinese gives: "This moss runs across Tazawa Village, Uonuma County, within the antagonism of the original, Yangdi Ersheng ズ seedlings, high ソ six and seven points ソ twigs ヲワカチテ clustering su Dongxue ling テ its color white green hard キ㕝针ノ如シタノ I don’t know a dialect", so, yeah, nice try Google :-D ...
posted by progosk at 6:09 AM on February 9, 2021
Okay, that's better than I thought - I tried it in Google translate and the result was terrible, as you saw - but it's missing out all of this part: 細枝ヲワカチテ叢生ス冬雪ヲ凌テ其色白綠色堅キ㕝針ノ如シ
(I am nitpicking this rather than giving my own attempt at a translation because I am rushing off to work and also I am not actually very good at classical Japanese).
posted by Jeanne at 6:14 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
(I am nitpicking this rather than giving my own attempt at a translation because I am rushing off to work and also I am not actually very good at classical Japanese).
posted by Jeanne at 6:14 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Last question: in the "and is six or seven minutes high" part, am I right in thinking the unit of measurement mentioned is sun, one tenth of a shaku? (I've browsed about older Chinese and Japanese measurement systems, and since this is typically a pretty tall mushroom, if back then a sun was a tenth of about 20-30cm, then that would pan out.) I couldn't identify which character stands for the unit of measurement in the text...
posted by progosk at 7:04 AM on February 9, 2021
posted by progosk at 7:04 AM on February 9, 2021
Best answer: I'm not quite good enough at classical Japanese to be confident in saying this, but I wonder if the text on this page is not actually describing the kinugasatake mushroom, but may be describing something on the previous page. The description says that it grows in clumps between small branches, and is like green-white needles, and I double-checked my classical Japanese dictionary - 苔 only refers to moss and lichen (and, like, tongue fungus), never to mushrooms.
My hypothesis is that the description is actually talking about a type of beard lichen, which grows on clumps in tree branches and is like green-white needles. (It could be some other type of moss that fits that same description, but I think it's unlikely that it's a mushroom.)
The unit of measurement is bu (分) which is about 3 millimeters - I think it's saying that the beard lichen plants are about 6-7 bu (~2 centimeters) in height.
posted by Jeanne at 7:46 AM on February 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
My hypothesis is that the description is actually talking about a type of beard lichen, which grows on clumps in tree branches and is like green-white needles. (It could be some other type of moss that fits that same description, but I think it's unlikely that it's a mushroom.)
The unit of measurement is bu (分) which is about 3 millimeters - I think it's saying that the beard lichen plants are about 6-7 bu (~2 centimeters) in height.
posted by Jeanne at 7:46 AM on February 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Argh! You're right: the text is likely about the illustration in the previous page (it's a moss + fungus...) - let me get the next page's text up... I feel a complete fool, sorry to have wasted everyone's time so far :-\
posted by progosk at 7:52 AM on February 9, 2021
posted by progosk at 7:52 AM on February 9, 2021
Response by poster: Here's the preceding spread, including the moss & lichen illustration.
And then this is the following spread, on the right hand page of which would be the text relative to the kinugasatake illustration...
posted by progosk at 7:58 AM on February 9, 2021
And then this is the following spread, on the right hand page of which would be the text relative to the kinugasatake illustration...
posted by progosk at 7:58 AM on February 9, 2021
Wow the "following spread" is cool, if that's from 1800 those are very very early illustrations of artifacts, I wish I knew what the caption for that one was. progosk, what is the source volume for these?
[sorry this doesn't answer the question but I can't help myself]
posted by Rumple at 10:19 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
[sorry this doesn't answer the question but I can't help myself]
posted by Rumple at 10:19 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: what is the source volume for these?
It's a two-volume work dated 1800, held at the National Diet Library in Tokyo called Hokuetsu Shashin / 北越物産写真, by author Kamei Kyodo / 亀井協従, a 94-page natural history of the province of Echigo, with precise illustrations of plants, fish, birds, a mushroom, a lichen, and those rocks and artifacts. (There's apparently a copy of it at the Hunt Institute, as per their 2005 bulletin, here.)
posted by progosk at 10:44 AM on February 9, 2021
It's a two-volume work dated 1800, held at the National Diet Library in Tokyo called Hokuetsu Shashin / 北越物産写真, by author Kamei Kyodo / 亀井協従, a 94-page natural history of the province of Echigo, with precise illustrations of plants, fish, birds, a mushroom, a lichen, and those rocks and artifacts. (There's apparently a copy of it at the Hunt Institute, as per their 2005 bulletin, here.)
posted by progosk at 10:44 AM on February 9, 2021
Response by poster: those are very very early illustrations of artifacts, I wish I knew what the caption for that one was
this is the following page, all text...
posted by progosk at 10:51 AM on February 9, 2021
this is the following page, all text...
posted by progosk at 10:51 AM on February 9, 2021
Best answer: this is the following page, all text...
These seem to be descriptions for the rock-like things in the illustrations.
And then this is the following spread, on the right hand page of which would be the text relative to the kinugasatake illustration...
This could be the text you're looking for, or at least it sounds closest from the pics you've provided so far. The title reads 仙人帽 (I think), which seems to be called amigasatake アミガサタケ Morchella esculenta (L.) Pers. var. esculenta in modern-day naming, according to a quick search/wiki. The wiki page contains a discussion of historical references, naming, etc., including an 1835 work that described kinugasatake (not amigasatake) as 仙人帽. Scroll down to the section on 和名・学名・方言名・英名 and see the bit about 漢名.
(In your pic, the label seems to have been pasted in, so perhaps there was confusion or changes to the name at some point?)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 1:44 PM on February 9, 2021
These seem to be descriptions for the rock-like things in the illustrations.
And then this is the following spread, on the right hand page of which would be the text relative to the kinugasatake illustration...
This could be the text you're looking for, or at least it sounds closest from the pics you've provided so far. The title reads 仙人帽 (I think), which seems to be called amigasatake アミガサタケ Morchella esculenta (L.) Pers. var. esculenta in modern-day naming, according to a quick search/wiki. The wiki page contains a discussion of historical references, naming, etc., including an 1835 work that described kinugasatake (not amigasatake) as 仙人帽. Scroll down to the section on 和名・学名・方言名・英名 and see the bit about 漢名.
(In your pic, the label seems to have been pasted in, so perhaps there was confusion or changes to the name at some point?)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 1:44 PM on February 9, 2021
I can't stick around right now but the part that jumped out at me from a quick look at the description is that "it has an odor," heh. 臭気アリ
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 1:54 PM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 1:54 PM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks Sockin', I think that must be the right text, then; it took a while to place the species, and it makes historical sense that it may have been associated with morels at a certain period (the pasted label is typical in mycological repertoires, since their names keep being revised, so it's likely a later, tentative addition - the library took the pains to digitise the page both with and without it).
So... I'm hoping some kind souls might still attempt a transcription of this new paragraph of text, to complete the illustration.
posted by progosk at 1:56 PM on February 9, 2021
So... I'm hoping some kind souls might still attempt a transcription of this new paragraph of text, to complete the illustration.
posted by progosk at 1:56 PM on February 9, 2021
Response by poster: "it has an odor," heh. 臭気アリ
Yes, all the Phallus sp. are pretty notorious for their (fly-attracting) stench... nonetheless, it's still a much appreciated delicacy, either by removing its head, or (as northern Europeans are wont), by eating it only in its ovoid, early stage, when the odour still qualifies as an aroma ;-D
posted by progosk at 1:59 PM on February 9, 2021
Yes, all the Phallus sp. are pretty notorious for their (fly-attracting) stench... nonetheless, it's still a much appreciated delicacy, either by removing its head, or (as northern Europeans are wont), by eating it only in its ovoid, early stage, when the odour still qualifies as an aroma ;-D
posted by progosk at 1:59 PM on February 9, 2021
Thanks progosk, fascinating from an archaeologist's point of view :)
If anyone cares to give the gist of the artifact captions I'd be very curious ....
posted by Rumple at 2:32 PM on February 9, 2021
If anyone cares to give the gist of the artifact captions I'd be very curious ....
posted by Rumple at 2:32 PM on February 9, 2021
Best answer: Back for some quick notes:
It's a two-volume work dated 1800, held at the National Diet Library in Tokyo called Hokuetsu Shashin / 北越物産写真
The title is Hokuetsu Bussan Shashin
the library took the pains to digitise the page both with and without it
FYI The text is read vertically from right to left. The pasted-in portion with the title is the right-most line with big letters. (The library did not flip this one--possibly pasted in more completely over whatever was underneath?)
The ending label that the library flipped in and out is written in a more cursive script (= much harder to read) but I think I can make out 漢名不実 so that indeed does suggest that it's a note about name uncertainty.
I'm hoping some kind souls might still attempt a transcription of this new paragraph of text, to complete the illustration.
I second Jeanne that "you really need to ask someone who actually knows classical Japanese."
Until then, this is a slap-dash/ provisional/ layperson's super-unofficial summary:
Sennin-Bou (Sennin's Cap) [Sennin is a type of mythical hermit-y god-like being]
First appeared [on the property of] farmer Gennosuke(?) in [such-and-such] Village of [such-an-such] County
Measures 6[or]7-sun [One sun translates roughly to 3.03cm]
[A description of parts and their colors:] Grows one stalk(? 茎), white spots. Has a cap/umbrella at end of stalk. All-over [alternatively, The whole appearance 全状] a white [something] screen [透し can signify transparent/hole-y/screen--essentially a descriptor for letting something through]. The fine/beautiful [something] of which it is good to [something]. At the base/root a skin of red [something] color. Remaining/leaving [something].
Has odor. Local/vernacular name [方言] unknown.
[A subsequent label pasted in, probably a note on nomenclature--see earlier in my comment]
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:31 PM on February 9, 2021
It's a two-volume work dated 1800, held at the National Diet Library in Tokyo called Hokuetsu Shashin / 北越物産写真
The title is Hokuetsu Bussan Shashin
the library took the pains to digitise the page both with and without it
FYI The text is read vertically from right to left. The pasted-in portion with the title is the right-most line with big letters. (The library did not flip this one--possibly pasted in more completely over whatever was underneath?)
The ending label that the library flipped in and out is written in a more cursive script (= much harder to read) but I think I can make out 漢名不実 so that indeed does suggest that it's a note about name uncertainty.
I'm hoping some kind souls might still attempt a transcription of this new paragraph of text, to complete the illustration.
I second Jeanne that "you really need to ask someone who actually knows classical Japanese."
Until then, this is a slap-dash/ provisional/ layperson's super-unofficial summary:
Sennin-Bou (Sennin's Cap) [Sennin is a type of mythical hermit-y god-like being]
First appeared [on the property of] farmer Gennosuke(?) in [such-and-such] Village of [such-an-such] County
Measures 6[or]7-sun [One sun translates roughly to 3.03cm]
[A description of parts and their colors:] Grows one stalk(? 茎), white spots. Has a cap/umbrella at end of stalk. All-over [alternatively, The whole appearance 全状] a white [something] screen [透し can signify transparent/hole-y/screen--essentially a descriptor for letting something through]. The fine/beautiful [something] of which it is good to [something]. At the base/root a skin of red [something] color. Remaining/leaving [something].
Has odor. Local/vernacular name [方言] unknown.
[A subsequent label pasted in, probably a note on nomenclature--see earlier in my comment]
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:31 PM on February 9, 2021
Oh wait. Were you looking for a transcription or a translation? Oops...
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:37 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:37 PM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Correction: "Remaining/leaving" in my earlier comment should be "However" 然し
Rumple, I've run out of Japanese-decoding energy for now but the two stone entries are labeled 雷斧石 and 矢の根石 in the illustrations (though the spelling varies even within the text). (Try Googling those for similar items from other sources.)
雷斧石 = thunder axe stone = lightning/thunder stone (see this other collection); 矢の根石 = arrow root stone = arrowheads.
The entries for these are written in yet another "style" that is difficult to read, but I think the one for the thunder stone talks about where they were found, sizes, etc., and maaaybe the arrowhead one contains a story?? and a reference to the 16th Century Chinese work 本草綱目 by 李時珍...
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 11:54 PM on February 9, 2021
Rumple, I've run out of Japanese-decoding energy for now but the two stone entries are labeled 雷斧石 and 矢の根石 in the illustrations (though the spelling varies even within the text). (Try Googling those for similar items from other sources.)
雷斧石 = thunder axe stone = lightning/thunder stone (see this other collection); 矢の根石 = arrow root stone = arrowheads.
The entries for these are written in yet another "style" that is difficult to read, but I think the one for the thunder stone talks about where they were found, sizes, etc., and maaaybe the arrowhead one contains a story?? and a reference to the 16th Century Chinese work 本草綱目 by 李時珍...
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 11:54 PM on February 9, 2021
Response by poster: Oh wait. Were you looking for a transcription or a translation?
Your stab at the translation is great and already makes a lot of sense - if you’ve managed to transcribe the text, that’s be very useful to have a look at, too. Thanks so much!
posted by progosk at 11:56 PM on February 9, 2021
Your stab at the translation is great and already makes a lot of sense - if you’ve managed to transcribe the text, that’s be very useful to have a look at, too. Thanks so much!
posted by progosk at 11:56 PM on February 9, 2021
Response by poster: The title is Hokuetsu Bussan Shashin
I did see that, but copied, probably mistakenly, the shorter rendering the Hunt Institute went for... Shashin translates to “images”, I’m seeing; does Hokuetsu Bussan refer to the subject matter or to the place/region the images pertain to (or perhaps even both)?
About the title and ending flip-label, all understood now - it looks from the scan that the title label is actually glued on, a more permanent, original correction of the text, as it were. There are also two section in the third line where parts of the text was whited out and overwritten, but by the original hand.) Quick question: you’ve found 仙人帽 -> Sennin-Bou -> Sennin’s Cap to be given as the vernacular name for amigasatake (Morchella esculenta) in more modern mycology texts?
posted by progosk at 12:29 AM on February 10, 2021
I did see that, but copied, probably mistakenly, the shorter rendering the Hunt Institute went for... Shashin translates to “images”, I’m seeing; does Hokuetsu Bussan refer to the subject matter or to the place/region the images pertain to (or perhaps even both)?
About the title and ending flip-label, all understood now - it looks from the scan that the title label is actually glued on, a more permanent, original correction of the text, as it were. There are also two section in the third line where parts of the text was whited out and overwritten, but by the original hand.) Quick question: you’ve found 仙人帽 -> Sennin-Bou -> Sennin’s Cap to be given as the vernacular name for amigasatake (Morchella esculenta) in more modern mycology texts?
posted by progosk at 12:29 AM on February 10, 2021
Response by poster: (As an aside, regarding the two species names: "Sennin's cap" jibes with these images of legendary headscarved hermits, meanwhile, kinugasa references the wide-brimmed hats-with-veils, which, given that the mushroom's veil originates from under the cap, seem a more morphologically accurate nomer for the species. An added delightful detail: there's a famous classical Japanese cinema director whose surname is Kinugasa - and some of his films feature precisely this kind of headgear :-D)
posted by progosk at 1:50 AM on February 10, 2021
posted by progosk at 1:50 AM on February 10, 2021
Response by poster: Quick question: you’ve found 仙人帽 -> Sennin-Bou -> Sennin’s Cap to be given as the vernacular name for amigasatake (Morchella esculenta) in more modern mycology texts?
(Found what you were referencing: the mention in the Japanese Wikipedia page for Morchella sp. of the use of Sennin's Cap in Isakawa Tsunemasa's 1829 "Honso Zufu" for M. esculenta/amigasatake, whereas Hironori Sakamoto's 1935 "Kibifu" distinguishes Sennin's Cap as correct only for P. indusiatus/kinugasatake. Thx!)
posted by progosk at 2:39 AM on February 10, 2021
(Found what you were referencing: the mention in the Japanese Wikipedia page for Morchella sp. of the use of Sennin's Cap in Isakawa Tsunemasa's 1829 "Honso Zufu" for M. esculenta/amigasatake, whereas Hironori Sakamoto's 1935 "Kibifu" distinguishes Sennin's Cap as correct only for P. indusiatus/kinugasatake. Thx!)
posted by progosk at 2:39 AM on February 10, 2021
Hokuetsu is the region. Wiki says it's the northern portion of Echigo, the part in red on this page. (BTW These are not the modern names of the places.)
Bussan means, broadly, the products (ag etc) of a region--including flora, metals, etc.
Shashin in modern Japanese is specifically photographs but may have denoted something else in the 1800s (minor note: the original source text uses an old form of the character for 写, which means to copy or fix into film/pictures).
The word 写生 uses the same first character and means to draw something from life. This is the word used by the Library to describe what this author did. (If you click on the 解題/抄録 section at the left of your source page, it has a brief explanation of the background of the text and author.)
you’ve found 仙人帽 -> Sennin-Bou -> Sennin’s Cap to be given as the vernacular name for amigasatake (Morchella esculenta) in more modern mycology texts?
Senninbou is the 漢名 (Chinese-derived name), so not vernacular; the -take names are the 和名 (Japanese names).
The Wikipedia entry for amigasatake I mentioned earlier lists an 1829 work in which Senninbou = amigasatake but also an 1835 work in which Senninbou = kinugasatake.
When I did a quick search earlier for Senninbou, the amigasatake wiki popped up. Now that I'm looking through more sites, many of the other dictionaries/sources say kinugasatake instead, so perhaps the modern consensus is kinugasatake.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 2:40 AM on February 10, 2021
Bussan means, broadly, the products (ag etc) of a region--including flora, metals, etc.
Shashin in modern Japanese is specifically photographs but may have denoted something else in the 1800s (minor note: the original source text uses an old form of the character for 写, which means to copy or fix into film/pictures).
The word 写生 uses the same first character and means to draw something from life. This is the word used by the Library to describe what this author did. (If you click on the 解題/抄録 section at the left of your source page, it has a brief explanation of the background of the text and author.)
you’ve found 仙人帽 -> Sennin-Bou -> Sennin’s Cap to be given as the vernacular name for amigasatake (Morchella esculenta) in more modern mycology texts?
Senninbou is the 漢名 (Chinese-derived name), so not vernacular; the -take names are the 和名 (Japanese names).
The Wikipedia entry for amigasatake I mentioned earlier lists an 1829 work in which Senninbou = amigasatake but also an 1835 work in which Senninbou = kinugasatake.
When I did a quick search earlier for Senninbou, the amigasatake wiki popped up. Now that I'm looking through more sites, many of the other dictionaries/sources say kinugasatake instead, so perhaps the modern consensus is kinugasatake.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 2:40 AM on February 10, 2021
Response by poster: many of the other dictionaries/sources say kinugasatake instead, so perhaps the modern consensus is kinugasatake
Yes, I think so - on which point, though: I only found one mention (the P. indusiatus Wiki page, which cites a no-longer available 2006 article by Inoki L. in The Japan Times "Kinugasatake (Veiled lady mushroom)") stating that kinugasa refers to the traditional veil hat, but on looking into that further, I find mostly other names for it, from the chinese original weimao 帷帽, to the apparently equivalent ichimegasa 市女笠, or else mushi no tareginu 枲の垂れ衣, or even, confusingly, amigasa. So now I'm not so sure about what "kinugasa-" might actually have been referring to... maybe just a older, now-defunct name for this kind of veiled hat?
posted by progosk at 3:14 AM on February 10, 2021
Yes, I think so - on which point, though: I only found one mention (the P. indusiatus Wiki page, which cites a no-longer available 2006 article by Inoki L. in The Japan Times "Kinugasatake (Veiled lady mushroom)") stating that kinugasa refers to the traditional veil hat, but on looking into that further, I find mostly other names for it, from the chinese original weimao 帷帽, to the apparently equivalent ichimegasa 市女笠, or else mushi no tareginu 枲の垂れ衣, or even, confusingly, amigasa. So now I'm not so sure about what "kinugasa-" might actually have been referring to... maybe just a older, now-defunct name for this kind of veiled hat?
posted by progosk at 3:14 AM on February 10, 2021
I'm not sure what the confusion is about...? Those are all variations of veiled hat, some with more specific regional or historical connotations. Hats come in many kinds...
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 4:32 AM on February 10, 2021
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 4:32 AM on February 10, 2021
Response by poster: Ok, no, sure - it's just that I was looking for some other confirmation of the translation of "kinugasa" as veiled hat, and hadn't/haven't found any other than the elusive JT article...
posted by progosk at 4:35 AM on February 10, 2021
posted by progosk at 4:35 AM on February 10, 2021
Kinugasa is a fairly basic term. 衣 = cloth (though kinu can mean specifically silk), 笠 = hat (of this umbrella-y type)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 4:49 AM on February 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 4:49 AM on February 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: (Hironori Sakamoto's 1935 "Kibifu" distinguishes Sennin's Cap as correct only for P. indusiatus/kinugasatake.
Here's the relevant1935 1835 illustration and description, btw; also, it looks this book's title is probably better rendered "Kinfu".)
posted by progosk at 5:38 AM on February 10, 2021
Here's the relevant
posted by progosk at 5:38 AM on February 10, 2021
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posted by jessica fletcher did it at 3:01 AM on February 9, 2021 [1 favorite]