Probably healthy though heartbreaking estrangement from MIL
February 8, 2021 12:10 PM Subscribe
My partner and I had a falling out with his mother over a year ago when my son was infant. She is a not-always-safe narcissist, but it still breaks my heart that she doesn’t know her only grandchild. Is there a way?
When my son was born, my partner and his mother had a thin, but decent relationship. They had had a falling out in the past, leading to a few years of near-total estrangement, but over time it thawed and they passively (without much direct dealing/healing) slid back into one another’s lives. By the time I met my partner four years ago, they were in good standing and I and my family (mom, sister) developed a relationship with her over the course of a couple of years. She’s a piece of work, but has many admirable qualities.
Then my son was born. My MIL had long dreamt of being a grandmother, and my son is her only grandchild. MIL delighted in my son and helped out a bunch (she lives 45mins away) until he was a few months old when she and my partner had a pointed disagreement. I likely wouldn't have considered her offense as such a major infraction, but I'm definitely sympathetic to why my partner did and her choices were increasingly angering and concerning to me, too.
Eventually the situation was really stressing us out, and we wrote her an email telling her that we need to take a breather, approximately a month apart to recalibrate and to care for our nascent little family. I realize this must have been very painful and shocking for her to receive, it involved the sudden (though temporary) withdrawal of access to her beloved newborn grandson. I didn't expect her to fly into a rage, however: unfriending us and my sister on Facebook and posting a quote on Instagram about how "Grandparent Alienators are sadistic toxic elder and child abusers who use their kids to work their craft." Further drama ensued, including her showing up with her husband unannounced at a family get-together where my partner, son, and I were when we had been very explicit that we were glad to not be there if she herself wanted to go. Unprompted by us, her nieces and nephews confronted my MIL over that incident and she again resorted to online smearing. Several more months calling my partner a narcissist on social media followed and then, oh, she threatened to sue him for money she had gifted him last year. You get the picture?
Also notable that my MIL has been estranged from another of her three children for over ten years – different circumstances, but similar issues. My partner has spent a lot of energy over the years trying to facilitate the reestablishment of a relationship between his mom and his sister, but hasn’t gotten very far.
All communication including social media posts went dark for several months with COVID. MIL then emailed us last summer asking to drop birthday gifts off for our son. We had some email exchanges with her, explaining that we would need to address and repair what happened between us before we were open to reconnection, ideally in a therapist’s office. MIL refused therapy (though was open to mediation – we didn’t think that was the right path), so we settled on meeting at the café just a three of us. We had hoped she would be willing to verbalize regret for her actions and a direct interest in being in relationship with us and not only our son. She didn’t seem to know how or be willing to do that; we all left frustrated.
With reservation, my partner and I decided to offer an opportunity for her to spend occasional spend time with our son under our supervision. My partner has since met his mom at the playground with our son three times now over the course of several months. According to him it’s civil but shallow and he usually comes home feeling quite sad. Predictably, we’re questioning the sustainability of such a shallow arrangement especially as our son gets older and is more aware of his relationships.
My partner has come to accept his mother’s limitations and is heartbroken, but feels as though he’s done what he can. I don’t have much confidence in my MIL, but am haunted by this rupture. Save for facilitating a relationship between my MIL and my son where my partner is not involved, is there a way for us?
When my son was born, my partner and his mother had a thin, but decent relationship. They had had a falling out in the past, leading to a few years of near-total estrangement, but over time it thawed and they passively (without much direct dealing/healing) slid back into one another’s lives. By the time I met my partner four years ago, they were in good standing and I and my family (mom, sister) developed a relationship with her over the course of a couple of years. She’s a piece of work, but has many admirable qualities.
Then my son was born. My MIL had long dreamt of being a grandmother, and my son is her only grandchild. MIL delighted in my son and helped out a bunch (she lives 45mins away) until he was a few months old when she and my partner had a pointed disagreement. I likely wouldn't have considered her offense as such a major infraction, but I'm definitely sympathetic to why my partner did and her choices were increasingly angering and concerning to me, too.
Eventually the situation was really stressing us out, and we wrote her an email telling her that we need to take a breather, approximately a month apart to recalibrate and to care for our nascent little family. I realize this must have been very painful and shocking for her to receive, it involved the sudden (though temporary) withdrawal of access to her beloved newborn grandson. I didn't expect her to fly into a rage, however: unfriending us and my sister on Facebook and posting a quote on Instagram about how "Grandparent Alienators are sadistic toxic elder and child abusers who use their kids to work their craft." Further drama ensued, including her showing up with her husband unannounced at a family get-together where my partner, son, and I were when we had been very explicit that we were glad to not be there if she herself wanted to go. Unprompted by us, her nieces and nephews confronted my MIL over that incident and she again resorted to online smearing. Several more months calling my partner a narcissist on social media followed and then, oh, she threatened to sue him for money she had gifted him last year. You get the picture?
Also notable that my MIL has been estranged from another of her three children for over ten years – different circumstances, but similar issues. My partner has spent a lot of energy over the years trying to facilitate the reestablishment of a relationship between his mom and his sister, but hasn’t gotten very far.
All communication including social media posts went dark for several months with COVID. MIL then emailed us last summer asking to drop birthday gifts off for our son. We had some email exchanges with her, explaining that we would need to address and repair what happened between us before we were open to reconnection, ideally in a therapist’s office. MIL refused therapy (though was open to mediation – we didn’t think that was the right path), so we settled on meeting at the café just a three of us. We had hoped she would be willing to verbalize regret for her actions and a direct interest in being in relationship with us and not only our son. She didn’t seem to know how or be willing to do that; we all left frustrated.
With reservation, my partner and I decided to offer an opportunity for her to spend occasional spend time with our son under our supervision. My partner has since met his mom at the playground with our son three times now over the course of several months. According to him it’s civil but shallow and he usually comes home feeling quite sad. Predictably, we’re questioning the sustainability of such a shallow arrangement especially as our son gets older and is more aware of his relationships.
My partner has come to accept his mother’s limitations and is heartbroken, but feels as though he’s done what he can. I don’t have much confidence in my MIL, but am haunted by this rupture. Save for facilitating a relationship between my MIL and my son where my partner is not involved, is there a way for us?
I think people forget, narcissism (sincere diagnosis.. not speculative- therefore no need to "defend" narcissists or alienate them- the person has a mental health condition) is a mental condition, deserving of health care. The person is probably incredibly difficult to deal with, but is still a person.
Seconding Rock em, but for relatives like this: you might be able to create a dialogue through written letter, so your son has something from this relative in case she passes. It provides a controlled form of communication that can be limited to a purely positive exchange. Obviously, it also provides an outlet for her. It's.. whether or not it's really possible, and whether your partner can agree.
Worst case scenario.. you can drop contact immediately. Hardcopies skirt any email concerns, and distance is always an option. Good luck.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:24 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Seconding Rock em, but for relatives like this: you might be able to create a dialogue through written letter, so your son has something from this relative in case she passes. It provides a controlled form of communication that can be limited to a purely positive exchange. Obviously, it also provides an outlet for her. It's.. whether or not it's really possible, and whether your partner can agree.
Worst case scenario.. you can drop contact immediately. Hardcopies skirt any email concerns, and distance is always an option. Good luck.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:24 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think that sadness is part of the consequences you have to bear for what sounds like an utterly necessary distance between your mother in law and your family.
Your partner is absolutely the right person to be setting the boundaries, and you are definitely part of the system maintaining them; it sounds like you are doing a great job of staying a team here. Part of the whole complex of feelings and mutual support and day-to-day managing of the consequences is finding space for the sadness that comes from knowing that your partner's mom is not a safe person. That is super sad and painful and it's okay to sit with those feelings occasionally. I wouldn't use them as evidence that the relationship needs to change, though.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 12:27 PM on February 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
Your partner is absolutely the right person to be setting the boundaries, and you are definitely part of the system maintaining them; it sounds like you are doing a great job of staying a team here. Part of the whole complex of feelings and mutual support and day-to-day managing of the consequences is finding space for the sadness that comes from knowing that your partner's mom is not a safe person. That is super sad and painful and it's okay to sit with those feelings occasionally. I wouldn't use them as evidence that the relationship needs to change, though.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 12:27 PM on February 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
I speak from experience that having grandparents like this kicking around, even in the background is a pretty shitty thing for a kid to bear.
I understand that you want your kid to have a grandparent, but that’s just not possible in a healthy way. Your desire for that connection for your kid doesn’t outweigh the toxicity of that kind of behavior on a kids emotional development.
I mean, you realize normalizing this kind of behavior will cause problems for them later in life, yes? Like, Big Problems level of difficulty managing relationships. Distortions like this are what some people go to therapy for DECADES for.
posted by furnace.heart at 12:29 PM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
I understand that you want your kid to have a grandparent, but that’s just not possible in a healthy way. Your desire for that connection for your kid doesn’t outweigh the toxicity of that kind of behavior on a kids emotional development.
I mean, you realize normalizing this kind of behavior will cause problems for them later in life, yes? Like, Big Problems level of difficulty managing relationships. Distortions like this are what some people go to therapy for DECADES for.
posted by furnace.heart at 12:29 PM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
At this moment in time, no there is not a way you. You need to support your partner in setting boundaries and prioritizing his needs and desires in this situation.
But there's no reason why you cannot revisit this at some point in the future. Perhaps MIL will change her stance on therapy, perhaps your partner will want to try again, perhaps your teenage child will be curious and want to meet their grandparent.
Nothing has to be permanent, but change will require a good-faith effort on the part of your MIL to acknowledge the harm she has done and demonstrate she is actively trying to change.
posted by brookeb at 12:36 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
But there's no reason why you cannot revisit this at some point in the future. Perhaps MIL will change her stance on therapy, perhaps your partner will want to try again, perhaps your teenage child will be curious and want to meet their grandparent.
Nothing has to be permanent, but change will require a good-faith effort on the part of your MIL to acknowledge the harm she has done and demonstrate she is actively trying to change.
posted by brookeb at 12:36 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
We have an ongoing superficial relationship with one set of grandparents. We see them at holidays and child’s birthday. Child is never alone with them. Polite superficial interactions only. I have found that, while they express an interest in babysitting/seeing child on their own it is always 100% on their terms...which is just not how it works. So they say “oh we want to babysit” and I say “oh that’s nice. You and [partner’s name] can agree to a time and place to all get together” and NOTHING ever happens. They never suggest a specific time or place. You know your MIL so maybe this wouldn’t be the case with her, but my experience is that they like the *idea* of being involved grandparents but not the practice.
My partner and I have agreed that we each “handle” our own parents. That’s been really good for us. I 100% follow his lead with his parents, I never reach out to them independently, and I always redirect them to him if they reach out to me. I’m sure this seems cold, but the happiness of my partner and the healthiness of my marriage is more important to me than their impressions of me.
posted by CMcG at 12:37 PM on February 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
My partner and I have agreed that we each “handle” our own parents. That’s been really good for us. I 100% follow his lead with his parents, I never reach out to them independently, and I always redirect them to him if they reach out to me. I’m sure this seems cold, but the happiness of my partner and the healthiness of my marriage is more important to me than their impressions of me.
posted by CMcG at 12:37 PM on February 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
The grandparent you want your child to have isn't this one.
Plenty of people grow up perfectly fine with one grandparent, six, none, whatever. Very few grow up perfectly fine with a grandparent like the one your son has.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:38 PM on February 8, 2021 [34 favorites]
Plenty of people grow up perfectly fine with one grandparent, six, none, whatever. Very few grow up perfectly fine with a grandparent like the one your son has.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:38 PM on February 8, 2021 [34 favorites]
It sounds like you really want your child to have a grandmother. I have to confess I'm...not confused by this exactly, but curious about your reasons for, kind of, 'grandma or bust!'. One of my grandmothers was distant and the other outright abusive and I had virtually no relationship with either of them, and it was fine, honestly. (I mean, I am an imperfect human being who needs help in other ways, but I don't attribute this to essentially not having loving grandparents in my life!)
I have found a lot of comfort in the Queer community; in large part because I am queer, but also because there's a very strong cultural current that family is dictated by things other than...I guess you could call it legal ties? Family of origin ties? Such things don't automatically result in a full and happy spectrum of caring; in your case, it's already deeply hurt your partner and has the potential to hurt your child. Yet at the same time, multi-generational love is awesome! Is there another source for this kind of skips-a-generation relationship? Other elders in your community who could provide that kind of grandmotherly role? I would strongly encourage you to explore all the ways we create and define family, and I think you'll find a way to fill that role with a loving, caring person.
(It sounds like you are also sad for this woman, which is kind of you, but I would suggest working on ways to let that go. Her mental illness isn't her fault, but her reaction to it is hers to manage, and she is not managing it. Make room for mourning, but please protect and care for your immediate family first.)
posted by kalimac at 12:39 PM on February 8, 2021 [27 favorites]
I have found a lot of comfort in the Queer community; in large part because I am queer, but also because there's a very strong cultural current that family is dictated by things other than...I guess you could call it legal ties? Family of origin ties? Such things don't automatically result in a full and happy spectrum of caring; in your case, it's already deeply hurt your partner and has the potential to hurt your child. Yet at the same time, multi-generational love is awesome! Is there another source for this kind of skips-a-generation relationship? Other elders in your community who could provide that kind of grandmotherly role? I would strongly encourage you to explore all the ways we create and define family, and I think you'll find a way to fill that role with a loving, caring person.
(It sounds like you are also sad for this woman, which is kind of you, but I would suggest working on ways to let that go. Her mental illness isn't her fault, but her reaction to it is hers to manage, and she is not managing it. Make room for mourning, but please protect and care for your immediate family first.)
posted by kalimac at 12:39 PM on February 8, 2021 [27 favorites]
So I went the direction you seem to be mourning, which is that my kids have a relationship with the narcissistic grandparent.
I'm here to tell you, it's not that great. When they were little although we had to patrol conversations pretty carefully and limit contact, it seemed really hard...but it's been nothing to the days that they have each noticed how my parent treats me. It just spins out worse and worse and now it's their relationship that is weird, like getting weird comments or strange presents or being elevated and then getting dropped. It's confusing and hard.
I think as the child who doesn't have the lifelong experience with this situation, you are making the mistake that narcissism is a foible that others can tolerate and in a way - you're making it out like it's your spouse's fault, because you're treating it like the grandmother will have a better relationship with her grandchildren. I mean for sure, there's a buffer there - you two - and that buffer does work. But there is no Great Grandma to have a relationship with and it's not about the dynamic with your spouse, it's about who she is and what she carries.
I have a lot of love and sympathy for my narcissistic parent because I do see it as a serious mental illness and I see how my parent wants to engage, and wants to have been a great parent and have a great relationship. But that same mental illness has made them walk away from professional help multiple times and has caused them, by its nature, to treat my feelings, my spirit, and myself as expendable in service of the illness.
Every time I have let my guard down, narcissism has risen up to strike a wound. And because the person experiencing it is my parent, they can wound me like no one else.
But the reality is that their mental illness is incredibly destructive to me, and to my family and kids.
It was never about me.
I would suggest that you are mourning a situation that does not and will almost surely never exist, that is, a relationship with a person who doesn't actually exist. I don't know what is causing you to have those feelings - nostalgia, your own grandparents, etc. - but I would really caution you against making that into...a real thing. It's not something that is in the world.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:44 PM on February 8, 2021 [56 favorites]
I'm here to tell you, it's not that great. When they were little although we had to patrol conversations pretty carefully and limit contact, it seemed really hard...but it's been nothing to the days that they have each noticed how my parent treats me. It just spins out worse and worse and now it's their relationship that is weird, like getting weird comments or strange presents or being elevated and then getting dropped. It's confusing and hard.
I think as the child who doesn't have the lifelong experience with this situation, you are making the mistake that narcissism is a foible that others can tolerate and in a way - you're making it out like it's your spouse's fault, because you're treating it like the grandmother will have a better relationship with her grandchildren. I mean for sure, there's a buffer there - you two - and that buffer does work. But there is no Great Grandma to have a relationship with and it's not about the dynamic with your spouse, it's about who she is and what she carries.
I have a lot of love and sympathy for my narcissistic parent because I do see it as a serious mental illness and I see how my parent wants to engage, and wants to have been a great parent and have a great relationship. But that same mental illness has made them walk away from professional help multiple times and has caused them, by its nature, to treat my feelings, my spirit, and myself as expendable in service of the illness.
Every time I have let my guard down, narcissism has risen up to strike a wound. And because the person experiencing it is my parent, they can wound me like no one else.
But the reality is that their mental illness is incredibly destructive to me, and to my family and kids.
It was never about me.
I would suggest that you are mourning a situation that does not and will almost surely never exist, that is, a relationship with a person who doesn't actually exist. I don't know what is causing you to have those feelings - nostalgia, your own grandparents, etc. - but I would really caution you against making that into...a real thing. It's not something that is in the world.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:44 PM on February 8, 2021 [56 favorites]
If the problem is just that Grandma pushes your husband's buttons in a way that he can't stand to be around, then you can ask him IF he's supportive of you "facilitating" the relationship you suggested. You could try being the one who meets at the park, and see how that goes.
But you need to go by what your husband says here. Even if you don't like it.
We see a not-infrequent theme here on the green, where grown children of terrible parents are pressured by their partners, who don't really, fully accept those adult childrens' lived experience, into reconciliations with those terrible parents. Whether this comes from imagining themselves as great peacemakers; or whether they have an image in their head of a lovely intact family that they think they can will into existence, I don't know. But I do know that having a volatile and hostile grandparent in its life is not to a kid's advantage.
Something you may not realize is that it is easy for even a mean and hostile grandparent to love a baby -- push it the swings, give it little snacks, etc -- especially as long as the kid is too young to express preferences, opinions etc. As the kid gets older and develops its own personality and requires more human interaction, that kid will increasingly become another real person. The bland cuteness will evaporate, and the kid will get treated the way the grandparent treats people. If the mean grandparent is nasty to you and your husband, she will eventually be the same way towards the kid.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:17 PM on February 8, 2021 [47 favorites]
But you need to go by what your husband says here. Even if you don't like it.
We see a not-infrequent theme here on the green, where grown children of terrible parents are pressured by their partners, who don't really, fully accept those adult childrens' lived experience, into reconciliations with those terrible parents. Whether this comes from imagining themselves as great peacemakers; or whether they have an image in their head of a lovely intact family that they think they can will into existence, I don't know. But I do know that having a volatile and hostile grandparent in its life is not to a kid's advantage.
Something you may not realize is that it is easy for even a mean and hostile grandparent to love a baby -- push it the swings, give it little snacks, etc -- especially as long as the kid is too young to express preferences, opinions etc. As the kid gets older and develops its own personality and requires more human interaction, that kid will increasingly become another real person. The bland cuteness will evaporate, and the kid will get treated the way the grandparent treats people. If the mean grandparent is nasty to you and your husband, she will eventually be the same way towards the kid.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:17 PM on February 8, 2021 [47 favorites]
I don't know -- the responses here sound really harsh. My mother and her MIL didn't really get along when I was growing up, for reasons I completely understand from the different points of view. But my grandmother is . . . absolutely lovely to me. She supports me to the end and we have a great relationship that is independent of my mother (and my mother is totally OK with that.) I can see why you would want to facilitate the relationship even if your husband and his mother don't get along. The offense would have to be REALLY bad for a full estrangement like this (and maybe it is!) Life is short and often hard -- unless it's impossible or again, REALLY BAD, surely it's better to err on the side of facilitating any kind of relationship with anyone who will love us and/our child.
Also, genuinely, what's wrong with mediation? It sounds like a good step to have someone neutral involved.
posted by heavenknows at 1:29 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Also, genuinely, what's wrong with mediation? It sounds like a good step to have someone neutral involved.
posted by heavenknows at 1:29 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
The offense would have to be REALLY bad for a full estrangement like this (and maybe it is!)
Well, from the OP: "unfriending us and my sister on Facebook and posting a quote on Instagram about how "Grandparent Alienators are sadistic toxic elder and child abusers who use their kids to work their craft"
Usually if your parent is calling you a child abuser for having asked them for a breather in visiting their grandchild over an argument, that's a pretty good sign that you are not dealing with someone who treats other people rationally. I realize sometimes you can't take one thing out of context and have it make sense to others but - that's just in the space of an AskMe question and it's pretty darn extreme!
posted by warriorqueen at 1:34 PM on February 8, 2021 [26 favorites]
Well, from the OP: "unfriending us and my sister on Facebook and posting a quote on Instagram about how "Grandparent Alienators are sadistic toxic elder and child abusers who use their kids to work their craft"
Usually if your parent is calling you a child abuser for having asked them for a breather in visiting their grandchild over an argument, that's a pretty good sign that you are not dealing with someone who treats other people rationally. I realize sometimes you can't take one thing out of context and have it make sense to others but - that's just in the space of an AskMe question and it's pretty darn extreme!
posted by warriorqueen at 1:34 PM on February 8, 2021 [26 favorites]
Following on from warriorqueen's experience, you need to consider that for now you can gate experiences and boundaries, but if you let this person into your lives, when your child is older -- even just a little older, like 8 years old -- this grandparent will start pushing boundaries directly with your child. Grandparent will do as many kinds of end runs around you as they can, and you may often be unaware of their efforts. Stuff like email, friending on social media, sending digital gifts, etc. you can't keep as vigilant an eye on and your child will be fairly exposed to this person's direct influence. Given your description of your MIL, I would prefer being haunted by the relationship rupture to being haunted by a future where my child is covertly accessible to this person.
posted by cocoagirl at 1:34 PM on February 8, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by cocoagirl at 1:34 PM on February 8, 2021 [11 favorites]
I agree that the instagram quote is unbelievably hurtful -- but it is in the context of being cut off from a beloved grandson she'd known well since birth and then was not allowed to see again. People say a lot of things out of rage and an apology might go far (not sure if there's been one.) I'm not saying it's OK, but for me, without knowing more, it wouldn't mean automatically cut off forever.
And I get frustrated when people use their own terrible experiences to say THIS WILL DEFINITELY HAPPEN TO YOU AND YOUR KID -- IT HAPPENED TO ME. Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't -- that's for the OP to gauge. But by no means does this kind of thing always follow the same path, and there's no reason that relationships can't be modified at different times. But that's just me and obviously others will differ -- and I think the OP will be able to gauge the situation better. I just wanted to provide an alternative viewpoint.
posted by heavenknows at 1:40 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
And I get frustrated when people use their own terrible experiences to say THIS WILL DEFINITELY HAPPEN TO YOU AND YOUR KID -- IT HAPPENED TO ME. Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't -- that's for the OP to gauge. But by no means does this kind of thing always follow the same path, and there's no reason that relationships can't be modified at different times. But that's just me and obviously others will differ -- and I think the OP will be able to gauge the situation better. I just wanted to provide an alternative viewpoint.
posted by heavenknows at 1:40 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think the OP will be able to gauge the situation better
Actually, I think the OP's husband will be able to gauge the situation best, and I agree with everyone who says letting him set his own boundaries here, and supporting him in them, is the way to go.
I would also recommend taking a look through this exhaustive analysis of the sort of people who claim "elder abuse" upon being even temporarily estranged. I suspect you will find the patterns familiar and might find some resolve in seeing how extremely unlikely it is for the patterns to change.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:50 PM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
Actually, I think the OP's husband will be able to gauge the situation best, and I agree with everyone who says letting him set his own boundaries here, and supporting him in them, is the way to go.
I would also recommend taking a look through this exhaustive analysis of the sort of people who claim "elder abuse" upon being even temporarily estranged. I suspect you will find the patterns familiar and might find some resolve in seeing how extremely unlikely it is for the patterns to change.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:50 PM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
Kids believe in grandparents. My own kid thought their alcoholic, mean step-grandfather was a lovely grandpa and they have fond memories of him. I would never ever leave my child with him, never did, but I try not to dismiss my kid's feelings.
Luckily for all concerned, he's long deceased.
Funny thing is, my partner's parents were much more destructive, but less obvious, and my kid never liked them much.
I have come to believe that many families are stories that they tell one another, and that if you look too closely you find that there are disappearances, avoidances, and careful negotations that suggest everyone is working hard to maintain the fictions that keep them together.
Those fictions have their utility. My kid has nice memories of my mother's second husband, and I'll leave it at that.
posted by Peach at 1:53 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Luckily for all concerned, he's long deceased.
Funny thing is, my partner's parents were much more destructive, but less obvious, and my kid never liked them much.
I have come to believe that many families are stories that they tell one another, and that if you look too closely you find that there are disappearances, avoidances, and careful negotations that suggest everyone is working hard to maintain the fictions that keep them together.
Those fictions have their utility. My kid has nice memories of my mother's second husband, and I'll leave it at that.
posted by Peach at 1:53 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
But that's not what happened. I won't keep arguing but I hope this one round will be ok.
"Eventually the situation was really stressing us out, and we wrote her an email telling her that we need to take a breather, approximately a month apart to recalibrate and to care for our nascent little family. I realize this must have been very painful and shocking for her to receive, it involved the sudden (though temporary) withdrawal of access to her beloved newborn grandson."
I'm not sure how to explain it -- on preview restless_nomad has it -- but the actions described in this post are like, TEXTBOOK.
I don't think people who have "normal" arguments with others or point to decent relationships understand what it's like to deal with a parent/grandparent who has true NPD - and I hope it will help enlighten the poster as their family chooses a path.
Garden-variety not getting along or having rough edges or getting angry is not the same as narcissism. (I'm confident in my experience in part because my parent was diagnosed in family therapy I was paying for, at 20, to try to "moderate" between my parents and my estranged sister.)
Narcissism isn't about disagreeing and posting something you regret once, it's about fundamentally being unable to understand that other human beings are people in their own right.
It's about not being able to, at least not at critical moments, stop yourself from lashing out at new parents because they won't give you their baby, as if the baby is something you have a RIGHT to, as if a relationship with any of the people involved is something you DESERVE whether it works for them or not. It's escalating beyond all normal. It's refusing to consider therapy.
This woman's actions have a language and they are speaking the language of narcissism very loudly.
And it is tragic, because a narcissist will tell you and the entire planet that all they want is a good/normal relationship. But what they can't see or say is that what they mean is they want you to provide them with the narcissistic supply -- the good feelings -- of a relationship without doing any of the work involved to actually have a relationship that works for everyone involved.
And it isn't laziness, it's a disorder that prevents them from being able to deal with the feelings and thoughts and actions that - give another person space to be a person. What's the best response? I don't know. I would make different choices today knowing what I know.
Do I think the grandchild will probably be all right no matter what? Sure. But what will it take to get there? I have spent a number of family dinners spaced out, and a number of evenings undoing conversations my kids have had, dealing with lousy, like really lousy, gifts and actions. In the end we all have a certain amount of life energy and looking back...I might have chosen differently.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:59 PM on February 8, 2021 [29 favorites]
"Eventually the situation was really stressing us out, and we wrote her an email telling her that we need to take a breather, approximately a month apart to recalibrate and to care for our nascent little family. I realize this must have been very painful and shocking for her to receive, it involved the sudden (though temporary) withdrawal of access to her beloved newborn grandson."
I'm not sure how to explain it -- on preview restless_nomad has it -- but the actions described in this post are like, TEXTBOOK.
I don't think people who have "normal" arguments with others or point to decent relationships understand what it's like to deal with a parent/grandparent who has true NPD - and I hope it will help enlighten the poster as their family chooses a path.
Garden-variety not getting along or having rough edges or getting angry is not the same as narcissism. (I'm confident in my experience in part because my parent was diagnosed in family therapy I was paying for, at 20, to try to "moderate" between my parents and my estranged sister.)
Narcissism isn't about disagreeing and posting something you regret once, it's about fundamentally being unable to understand that other human beings are people in their own right.
It's about not being able to, at least not at critical moments, stop yourself from lashing out at new parents because they won't give you their baby, as if the baby is something you have a RIGHT to, as if a relationship with any of the people involved is something you DESERVE whether it works for them or not. It's escalating beyond all normal. It's refusing to consider therapy.
This woman's actions have a language and they are speaking the language of narcissism very loudly.
And it is tragic, because a narcissist will tell you and the entire planet that all they want is a good/normal relationship. But what they can't see or say is that what they mean is they want you to provide them with the narcissistic supply -- the good feelings -- of a relationship without doing any of the work involved to actually have a relationship that works for everyone involved.
And it isn't laziness, it's a disorder that prevents them from being able to deal with the feelings and thoughts and actions that - give another person space to be a person. What's the best response? I don't know. I would make different choices today knowing what I know.
Do I think the grandchild will probably be all right no matter what? Sure. But what will it take to get there? I have spent a number of family dinners spaced out, and a number of evenings undoing conversations my kids have had, dealing with lousy, like really lousy, gifts and actions. In the end we all have a certain amount of life energy and looking back...I might have chosen differently.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:59 PM on February 8, 2021 [29 favorites]
They had had a falling out in the past, leading to a few years of near-total estrangement
my MIL has been estranged from another of her three children for over ten years
her choices were increasingly angering and concerning to me, too
I didn't expect her to fly into a rage
It's hard to understand why you want to facilitate this relationship. What good do you think will come of it? She doesn't sound like a healthy person for a child to be around.
posted by yawper at 2:09 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
my MIL has been estranged from another of her three children for over ten years
her choices were increasingly angering and concerning to me, too
I didn't expect her to fly into a rage
It's hard to understand why you want to facilitate this relationship. What good do you think will come of it? She doesn't sound like a healthy person for a child to be around.
posted by yawper at 2:09 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
You are correct to be concerned about how your MIL interacts with your kid.
My grandmother was a classic narcissist and an abusive person. There was never an option for estrangement because "you never stop talking to family" was her motto and she bullied my mother into compliance.
I was very aware of her "issues" from a young age and still I twisted myself up in knots trying to please her with no success. She made it perfectly clear that it was her way or nothing at all. Also, like your MIL (elder abuse???), she was terribly and casually cruel with her words. I have always been an average sized person, but I'll never forget what it felt like when I asked for a second cookie after dinner at her house and she said "don't you think you've had enough?". I lost 10 or 15 pounds as a young adult and for the FIRST time in my life she told me how good I looked (and commented directly on the weight loss of course).
So then when I became a young adult and she was older and needed someone to drive her around, I did that for her. Every single time we got together all she wanted to do was talk shit about my mother, my sister, my second cousin (I'm serious. It was fucked up.) and pretty much everybody who wasn't in the room.
Then she spent the last decade of her life verbally abusing her health aides and the staff at the nursing home. This surprised no one in our family.
Today would have been her 100th birthday but she died on December 1st. I loved her, and I came out mostly okay but she definitely didn't help.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:16 PM on February 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
My grandmother was a classic narcissist and an abusive person. There was never an option for estrangement because "you never stop talking to family" was her motto and she bullied my mother into compliance.
I was very aware of her "issues" from a young age and still I twisted myself up in knots trying to please her with no success. She made it perfectly clear that it was her way or nothing at all. Also, like your MIL (elder abuse???), she was terribly and casually cruel with her words. I have always been an average sized person, but I'll never forget what it felt like when I asked for a second cookie after dinner at her house and she said "don't you think you've had enough?". I lost 10 or 15 pounds as a young adult and for the FIRST time in my life she told me how good I looked (and commented directly on the weight loss of course).
So then when I became a young adult and she was older and needed someone to drive her around, I did that for her. Every single time we got together all she wanted to do was talk shit about my mother, my sister, my second cousin (I'm serious. It was fucked up.) and pretty much everybody who wasn't in the room.
Then she spent the last decade of her life verbally abusing her health aides and the staff at the nursing home. This surprised no one in our family.
Today would have been her 100th birthday but she died on December 1st. I loved her, and I came out mostly okay but she definitely didn't help.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 2:16 PM on February 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
My grandmother was an abuser and a narcissist and she caused so much pain. As an adult I drew some hard boundaries which I suspect were what really helped my dad (her son) finally draw his own. She died via COVID last year after a lifetime of us saying she would be immortal via spite, and the entire family was relieved. If the possibility of the whole family going no-contact with her had ever even existed I would have been much happier and so would my dad. I would have a better relationship with my cousins and uncles on that side, too. And I wouldn’t have nursed the hurt that my parents forced me to interact with that toxic woman as a child, for decades, before understanding that at the time they didn’t see they had a choice, either. Please seize this chance to support your husband and kid.
posted by Mizu at 2:16 PM on February 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Mizu at 2:16 PM on February 8, 2021 [9 favorites]
restless_nomad beat me to posting that link, but it sounds to me like your MIL has fallen into a particularly unfortunate community. You say she posted a quote instead of wrote a post, which makes me think that this is a secondhand quote she got somewhere, and the possible sources of such a quote are... not great.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:17 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:17 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Honestly - speaking from personal experience here - if she's actually cluster B or, more specifically, NPD, she's not going to change. She'd have to want to. And those with NPD cannot even truly accept their own responsibility, so it's impossible for them to truly change.
You can do an awful lot of harm to your partner, your relationship, and your child if you attempt to push the relationship in the name of "family". Not all families are good, and sometimes, it really is better to get out and stay gone, and often, that's the only way to heal.
I made the mistake of staying near my family, only cutting contact a couple of years ago, after I was 40 and all my kids were in their late teens. By then, I'd allowed an awful lot of damage. I was fortunate - very fortunate - and as the scapegoat, my parenting was almost diametrically opposite of my parents. This meant I'd built strong relationships with my kids despite all the damage my parents - and NPD sister - had cause in myself and my children, though they came close to destroying any possibility of that with one of my children.
If that son hadn't had a series of situations that almost literally led him through hell, in which I was able to fully show my support - and my family turned on him during - I would have lost that relationship completely, and it likely would have led to the destruction of his life. I'm not exaggerating, either, things were really that serious. We came out healthy on the other side, but it was by the skin of our teeth, and it never would have happened if we hadn't walked away from my parents and sister and stopped allowing them in.
One of the resources that I used to help me get through - more by reading than by posting, because our situation was extreme and potentially polarizing enough that it might have been too distracting and deterred people from giving useful advice - were the JustNo forums on Reddit, specifically r/JustNoMIL and r/JustNoFamily, with some JustNoSO thrown in. I wasn't in a position during those early days of no contact to get therapy (finally started this year), and I spent hundreds of hours reading. (I was also dealing with some pretty severe anxiety and depression as a result of everything, and I didn't feel strong enough to deal with trolls I might encounter - which was another reason I did little posting and lots of reading.)
Be very careful taking advice from the world at large about parents like your inlaw. There is a huge preponderance to believe that family is everything, especially by those that have not experienced abuse. Even many of those who are abused have been brainwashed into thinking that they MUST place family first above themselves.
That's NOT true, it's NOT healthy, and when someone, for their mental wellbeing, feels the need to get away - or even just take a break from - a toxic family, their need should NOT be invalidated. Not by friends, not by a partner, and not even by a therapist. It makes the person doing the pushing an enabler of the abuser, and is dangerously close to they themselves being abusive.
Your child does NOT "need" a grandparent. Sometimes, the best thing that can happen is to never even know that a particular relative even exists. Yeah, it's possible that a child will eventually learn that the relative is toxic, and be strong enough to withstand them - but it's equally possible for the relative to manipulate the child into being toxic themselves, or groom the child for abuse by themselves and others. And no matter the result, it means the child has either directly experienced or secondarily been exposed to years of abuse in the meantime.
It really isn't worth it.
One more note: In my opinion, this is the one topic area I've encountered that MetaFilter does not handle at all well as a whole, and when I happen to catch the posts about it, I try very hard to recommend the Reddit subs. There WILL be someone - or many someones - who have been through similar circumstances. I do this partly because even just a blanket "therapy" recommendation can be iffy, since finding a therapist that is GOOD about toxic families can be extremely difficult, and a bad one can do a lot of harm to all involved. Especially if the narcissist gets ahold of them and succeeds in using them against the abused. (Family or couple therapy with a narcissist rarely turns out well.)
posted by stormyteal at 2:23 PM on February 8, 2021 [19 favorites]
You can do an awful lot of harm to your partner, your relationship, and your child if you attempt to push the relationship in the name of "family". Not all families are good, and sometimes, it really is better to get out and stay gone, and often, that's the only way to heal.
I made the mistake of staying near my family, only cutting contact a couple of years ago, after I was 40 and all my kids were in their late teens. By then, I'd allowed an awful lot of damage. I was fortunate - very fortunate - and as the scapegoat, my parenting was almost diametrically opposite of my parents. This meant I'd built strong relationships with my kids despite all the damage my parents - and NPD sister - had cause in myself and my children, though they came close to destroying any possibility of that with one of my children.
If that son hadn't had a series of situations that almost literally led him through hell, in which I was able to fully show my support - and my family turned on him during - I would have lost that relationship completely, and it likely would have led to the destruction of his life. I'm not exaggerating, either, things were really that serious. We came out healthy on the other side, but it was by the skin of our teeth, and it never would have happened if we hadn't walked away from my parents and sister and stopped allowing them in.
One of the resources that I used to help me get through - more by reading than by posting, because our situation was extreme and potentially polarizing enough that it might have been too distracting and deterred people from giving useful advice - were the JustNo forums on Reddit, specifically r/JustNoMIL and r/JustNoFamily, with some JustNoSO thrown in. I wasn't in a position during those early days of no contact to get therapy (finally started this year), and I spent hundreds of hours reading. (I was also dealing with some pretty severe anxiety and depression as a result of everything, and I didn't feel strong enough to deal with trolls I might encounter - which was another reason I did little posting and lots of reading.)
Be very careful taking advice from the world at large about parents like your inlaw. There is a huge preponderance to believe that family is everything, especially by those that have not experienced abuse. Even many of those who are abused have been brainwashed into thinking that they MUST place family first above themselves.
That's NOT true, it's NOT healthy, and when someone, for their mental wellbeing, feels the need to get away - or even just take a break from - a toxic family, their need should NOT be invalidated. Not by friends, not by a partner, and not even by a therapist. It makes the person doing the pushing an enabler of the abuser, and is dangerously close to they themselves being abusive.
Your child does NOT "need" a grandparent. Sometimes, the best thing that can happen is to never even know that a particular relative even exists. Yeah, it's possible that a child will eventually learn that the relative is toxic, and be strong enough to withstand them - but it's equally possible for the relative to manipulate the child into being toxic themselves, or groom the child for abuse by themselves and others. And no matter the result, it means the child has either directly experienced or secondarily been exposed to years of abuse in the meantime.
It really isn't worth it.
One more note: In my opinion, this is the one topic area I've encountered that MetaFilter does not handle at all well as a whole, and when I happen to catch the posts about it, I try very hard to recommend the Reddit subs. There WILL be someone - or many someones - who have been through similar circumstances. I do this partly because even just a blanket "therapy" recommendation can be iffy, since finding a therapist that is GOOD about toxic families can be extremely difficult, and a bad one can do a lot of harm to all involved. Especially if the narcissist gets ahold of them and succeeds in using them against the abused. (Family or couple therapy with a narcissist rarely turns out well.)
posted by stormyteal at 2:23 PM on February 8, 2021 [19 favorites]
It's not OP's decision. It's OP's husband's.
OP, support your spouse and honor his boundaries with respect to his own mother. To do anything else is to show a lack of respect for him and his judgment and--if you take any actions without his knowledge/consent--potentially destroy the trust between you.
This one really is that simple.
posted by praemunire at 2:48 PM on February 8, 2021 [23 favorites]
OP, support your spouse and honor his boundaries with respect to his own mother. To do anything else is to show a lack of respect for him and his judgment and--if you take any actions without his knowledge/consent--potentially destroy the trust between you.
This one really is that simple.
posted by praemunire at 2:48 PM on February 8, 2021 [23 favorites]
Your husband is the one who grew up with her, the one who knows her better, and the one who's been damaged by her first-hand. Ultimately, he's the one who gets to make this decision, and you need to have his back on it.
Will it always be this way? Maybe not. The future is unpredictable. But for now, I think it's time to accept that this relationship isn't going to happen like you might have wanted, and maybe give yourself some time to grieve that if you need to.
posted by pie ninja at 3:03 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
Will it always be this way? Maybe not. The future is unpredictable. But for now, I think it's time to accept that this relationship isn't going to happen like you might have wanted, and maybe give yourself some time to grieve that if you need to.
posted by pie ninja at 3:03 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
What I'm reading is that when she disagreed with the baby's father, she didn't have the flexibility and grace to say, "OK, we disagree about this and you get to make the call because you're the parent," and instead acted as if it was either a negotiation or her place to make the call (unclear which, but both are an overstep). And then, when the parents said they needed a temporary break, she went nuclear with hostility toward them and crossing their boundaries. And then, when the parents invited her to repair the relationship, she was unwilling to participate in therapy and unable to otherwise take steps toward meaningful reconciliation.
Maybe the point of disagreement was truly, unambiguously ridiculous (e.g., Dad wanted all communication with Baby to be done in rhyming couplets). I don't really care. It's her behavior in response to the disagreement that's so concerning, and which necessitates keeping your distance. There might be a future time when she's able to do some of her own work, approach your partner with humility and self-awareness, and demonstrate that she's trustworthy. Until then, it's natural to feel sad or upset about this rupture. Grieve it.
posted by theotherdurassister at 3:05 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Maybe the point of disagreement was truly, unambiguously ridiculous (e.g., Dad wanted all communication with Baby to be done in rhyming couplets). I don't really care. It's her behavior in response to the disagreement that's so concerning, and which necessitates keeping your distance. There might be a future time when she's able to do some of her own work, approach your partner with humility and self-awareness, and demonstrate that she's trustworthy. Until then, it's natural to feel sad or upset about this rupture. Grieve it.
posted by theotherdurassister at 3:05 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Hey folks -- please address your answers to the OP and if you have issues about MetaFilter generally those should probably go to MetaTalk.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:17 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:17 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
Children need as many unconditionally loving adults as they can get. The world will have plenty of hostile and quid pro quo relationships for them down the line.
You and your partner are right to keep your child safe from the constant onslaught of this grandparent.
Yes, mental illness is real and requires treatment. By mental health professionals. And mental health practitioners are generally prohibited by ethics from treating their family members. Sometimes a person's mental health has no negative impact on the people around them. Other times the impact of the behaviors brought on by mental health is too great to bear.
If a family member punched one person randomly between every 2nd and 10th time they visited your home, they would not be allowed in your home. The level of manipulation described in your post is as bad as hitting a child.
Many people have felt that grandparents are inherently valuable to have around, and are safe because "she would never treat a child that way!" Nearly all of these people find that eventually, the abuser does treat their child badly. I remind you, your partner was a child once, and your son will stop being a toddler soon, eventually becoming a teen and an adult. Unconditional love toward a teen is....work. This relative is not demonstrating a willingness or a capacity for the work required to be a safe adult role model for the adult you are trying to raise.
If you wanted your child to learn that calling/emailing/sending mean social media messages is the way to get a desired response from someone, then you would not hesitate to keep her involved in his life.
posted by bilabial at 3:32 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
You and your partner are right to keep your child safe from the constant onslaught of this grandparent.
Yes, mental illness is real and requires treatment. By mental health professionals. And mental health practitioners are generally prohibited by ethics from treating their family members. Sometimes a person's mental health has no negative impact on the people around them. Other times the impact of the behaviors brought on by mental health is too great to bear.
If a family member punched one person randomly between every 2nd and 10th time they visited your home, they would not be allowed in your home. The level of manipulation described in your post is as bad as hitting a child.
Many people have felt that grandparents are inherently valuable to have around, and are safe because "she would never treat a child that way!" Nearly all of these people find that eventually, the abuser does treat their child badly. I remind you, your partner was a child once, and your son will stop being a toddler soon, eventually becoming a teen and an adult. Unconditional love toward a teen is....work. This relative is not demonstrating a willingness or a capacity for the work required to be a safe adult role model for the adult you are trying to raise.
If you wanted your child to learn that calling/emailing/sending mean social media messages is the way to get a desired response from someone, then you would not hesitate to keep her involved in his life.
posted by bilabial at 3:32 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
In the early years of my relationship with my wife, she was growing more and more estranged from her father. I urged her to try to patch things up with him. I'd heard my wife's stories about his bigoted, abusive, and gaslighting behavior, but I guess I'd always thought, "The guy must have a good side too." And I'd always had a good relationship with my dad -- I just couldn't really grasp how toxic my FIL really was. Then we had a horrible experience with him one evening while we were visiting, in which his girlfriend started asking skeptical questions about various lies he'd told, and he erupted in rage. Finally, belatedly, I understood why my wife felt the urge to cut him out of her life. She subsequently did so -- and it was absolutely the right choice. Moral of the story: Your partner knows their parent better than you do. Trust their instincts, and support them in their choices.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:37 PM on February 8, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:37 PM on February 8, 2021 [10 favorites]
Honey, I'm going to be straight with you. You have clearly never dealt with a narcissist before because this kind of "oh they're probably well meaning and it's all just a zany misunderstanding" bullshit is what they feed on and how they keep poisoning people.
My first question is why you don't believe your husband when he tells you what she's like? I mean you say it's probably a well-meaning break, but given how eager you are to end run his cutting her off, I don't think you actually believe him. Even though you've experienced her behavior yourself! Probably just a wacky misunderstanding, right?! My second question is: Why would you want to introduce this person into your child's life? What does she possibly bring that's beneficial? She sounds awful!
My mother is a narcissist and she will give a sob story that she doesn't know why I cut her off or why I'm upset, so I will provide her story with the actual reason here.
"I don't know why he's so upset."
She sent me a 5 page email accusing my wife of planting some kind of device to make her dog act crazy and ripping us both for her dog getting out and not caring about my sister, etc. When I said there was no "dog crazy making" device in the spot she indicated, she said my wife must've run and hidden it. While my wife was standing right next to me. When I consulted with our vet and several dog trainers I knew and they told me that "a device that makes a dog act crazy and run away and attack people and animals but is also completely silent and easily hidden" didn't exist, she said my wife must've gotten it custom made.
She was also planning to kick us out of her house because she thought we were penniless (and, obviously, she thought I'd get rid of my evil wife and admit she was right all along). She also stole our car thinking that would really screw us. (When we turned out to have planned for both contingencies, it was just further proof she was right and we'd been plotting against her).
"We just had a disagreement."
I like when people say this because it sounds like we got too heated arguing about the Yankees or something when she accused my spouse of waging psychic warfare on her dog, planned to put us on the street, and stole our car.
"I still send him cards every holiday but he never responds!"
This is true. What she won't tell you is I didn't give her my new address and I didn't tell her my new name when I changed it. She stalked me to find it out. And sends cards all the time. All. The. Time.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:41 PM on February 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
My first question is why you don't believe your husband when he tells you what she's like? I mean you say it's probably a well-meaning break, but given how eager you are to end run his cutting her off, I don't think you actually believe him. Even though you've experienced her behavior yourself! Probably just a wacky misunderstanding, right?! My second question is: Why would you want to introduce this person into your child's life? What does she possibly bring that's beneficial? She sounds awful!
My mother is a narcissist and she will give a sob story that she doesn't know why I cut her off or why I'm upset, so I will provide her story with the actual reason here.
"I don't know why he's so upset."
She sent me a 5 page email accusing my wife of planting some kind of device to make her dog act crazy and ripping us both for her dog getting out and not caring about my sister, etc. When I said there was no "dog crazy making" device in the spot she indicated, she said my wife must've run and hidden it. While my wife was standing right next to me. When I consulted with our vet and several dog trainers I knew and they told me that "a device that makes a dog act crazy and run away and attack people and animals but is also completely silent and easily hidden" didn't exist, she said my wife must've gotten it custom made.
She was also planning to kick us out of her house because she thought we were penniless (and, obviously, she thought I'd get rid of my evil wife and admit she was right all along). She also stole our car thinking that would really screw us. (When we turned out to have planned for both contingencies, it was just further proof she was right and we'd been plotting against her).
"We just had a disagreement."
I like when people say this because it sounds like we got too heated arguing about the Yankees or something when she accused my spouse of waging psychic warfare on her dog, planned to put us on the street, and stole our car.
"I still send him cards every holiday but he never responds!"
This is true. What she won't tell you is I didn't give her my new address and I didn't tell her my new name when I changed it. She stalked me to find it out. And sends cards all the time. All. The. Time.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 3:41 PM on February 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
People have covered the bigger picture question here, but I'll just add a brief anecdote:
Of my bio grandparents, when I was born two were already dead and the other two would be very senile and in wheelchairs by the time I was four. I was jealous of people who had grandparents who would do fun activities with them. But there are a number of lonely old people out there- one of my neighbors growing up was an interesting guy with an amazing shell collection - anyhow, he ended up becoming like a grandfather to me. If the concern is your kid having a grandparent, they can likely find that type of relationship somewhere beyond your family, and those relationships can be really valuable.
posted by coffeecat at 4:09 PM on February 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
Of my bio grandparents, when I was born two were already dead and the other two would be very senile and in wheelchairs by the time I was four. I was jealous of people who had grandparents who would do fun activities with them. But there are a number of lonely old people out there- one of my neighbors growing up was an interesting guy with an amazing shell collection - anyhow, he ended up becoming like a grandfather to me. If the concern is your kid having a grandparent, they can likely find that type of relationship somewhere beyond your family, and those relationships can be really valuable.
posted by coffeecat at 4:09 PM on February 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
If the options are "bad grandparent" or NO grandparent, I'd pick no grandparent. Go with what your husband wants here. There's many reasons why so many of this woman's loved ones are estranged from her. You can feel vaguely bad and sad that that person is lonely and not getting to see the precious grandchild, but if she's going to treat everyone like crap, then, well, she's bringing that lonely upon herself.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:19 PM on February 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:19 PM on February 8, 2021 [5 favorites]
My grandmother was a monster, rather like the one you describe.
I'm 54 and still straightening out the damage she did to me.
If only my parent had kept me safe from her.
posted by WaywardPlane at 4:46 PM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'm 54 and still straightening out the damage she did to me.
If only my parent had kept me safe from her.
posted by WaywardPlane at 4:46 PM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
You can respect your husband's wishes and be haunted by the estrangement, or you can take the chance that your child will be haunted for life by the inexplicably nasty acts of an elder that they're supposed to love.
Some people cannot / do not want to get well. Let them shoulder the burden of their actions.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:36 PM on February 8, 2021
You can respect your husband's wishes and be haunted by the estrangement, or you can take the chance that your child will be haunted for life by the inexplicably nasty acts of an elder that they're supposed to love.
Some people cannot / do not want to get well. Let them shoulder the burden of their actions.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 5:36 PM on February 8, 2021
I'd like to echo those who mention that you can find "family" for your child that has nothing to do with blood or legal ties. Children need as many loving adults in their life as they can get, but there is no rule that they have to be related to you! Two of my closest friends are a couple who both have troubled relationships with their parents. Instead of subjecting the kids to people who are demonstrably capable of abuse, they've built them a wonderful network of honorary family members. All three of the kids call me "auntie" and I'm *extremely* involved in their lives (we're even in a pandemic bubble together!) even though we're not related in any way. They also have an honorary set of grandparents, a couple of other honorary aunties, and lots of other assorted adults that they love and trust. I think it's wonderful that you want your kiddo to have a grandparent in their life, but it CERTAINLY doesn't (and frankly shouldn't) be your partner's mother.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 5:41 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 5:41 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yeah I totally hear what you are saying here, but I think that may be a thing you need to work out--your own feelings of hauntedness--on your own and not turn it into a larger family conflict especially between you and your spouse.
I had a few difficult people in my family (at least one narcissist) and one of the things that is so hard is that often the N-Moms can be really effective at playing the weird sympathy cards and getting everyone to basically hassle and harass you that YOU are the one (or in this case, your spouse) that is causing them great pain. My mother had people from all over the place basically contacting me on facebook saying all sorts of terrible things about me that were not really true ("MY KIDS DON'T WANT TO READ MY MEMOIR AND IT MAKES ME SO SAD") and people would reach out to me "You are really hurting your mother, you know...." They weaponize your own feelings of "How things should be" while also not playing the role they should be playing, while pretending to in public.
So, that hurt she's feeling can both be true in a way, but also that her own mental health issues and failure to address them are the real issue. So at the cafe meeting you say you "all left frustrated" but I think you and your spouse were seeking some healing and your MIL was just mad that she's being "denied" access to her grandkid, access she could have if she was actually actively working out things with her own son, but she is not doing that. I really wish I had cut off, or cut down, contact with my mother earlier and not given in to my own guilt (and harassment by other family members) that I was actively hurting her by not wanting to have bad interactions with her over and over again.
posted by jessamyn at 5:46 PM on February 8, 2021 [11 favorites]
I had a few difficult people in my family (at least one narcissist) and one of the things that is so hard is that often the N-Moms can be really effective at playing the weird sympathy cards and getting everyone to basically hassle and harass you that YOU are the one (or in this case, your spouse) that is causing them great pain. My mother had people from all over the place basically contacting me on facebook saying all sorts of terrible things about me that were not really true ("MY KIDS DON'T WANT TO READ MY MEMOIR AND IT MAKES ME SO SAD") and people would reach out to me "You are really hurting your mother, you know...." They weaponize your own feelings of "How things should be" while also not playing the role they should be playing, while pretending to in public.
So, that hurt she's feeling can both be true in a way, but also that her own mental health issues and failure to address them are the real issue. So at the cafe meeting you say you "all left frustrated" but I think you and your spouse were seeking some healing and your MIL was just mad that she's being "denied" access to her grandkid, access she could have if she was actually actively working out things with her own son, but she is not doing that. I really wish I had cut off, or cut down, contact with my mother earlier and not given in to my own guilt (and harassment by other family members) that I was actively hurting her by not wanting to have bad interactions with her over and over again.
posted by jessamyn at 5:46 PM on February 8, 2021 [11 favorites]
I want to state up front - and super duper underline it also - that you need to take all your cues from your partner on how you and your kids will interact with his mother. She is HIS mother. He's the primary relationship-maintainer. Too often, women feel responsible for creating or maintaining fixing relationships that are not ours to fix. This is, to put it bluntly, a boundary violation. One of the hardest lessons we must learn sometimes is how to say "not my responsibility".
However, I also want to say that I 100% agree with your impulse to want your children to have a relationship with their grandparents. Too often people - especially people on the internet - are eager to label someone a "narcissist", which to them usually means "all bad", enough of a reason to write a person off entirely because they are dangerous, like a poisonous snake.
In reality, even people who are intermittently narcissistic and angry and toxic are not invariably or constantly so. Just as it's possible for humans to interact with poisonous snakes safely and rewardingly, so too can you allow the narcissist in your family be allowed in your children's lives in limited, boundaried ways, to their benefit. It's likely very possible for you to design and orchestrate their presence in your children's lives in such a way as to extract maximum joy for all parties involved and minimize the risk of pain to yourself and your kids.
It's a lot of work for sure (I do plan to explain the basics of it later in this comment) and anyone would need a compelling reason to do that work. It sounds to me like you do have that compelling reason: you want your child to have a grandparent. This is IMO a worthy reason. Grandparents do not grow on trees. Even when a grandparent is severely limited by careful boundaries set by parents (i.e. not a "normal" grandparent by any means), if such a limited grandparent is able to delight in their grandchild, their joy and delight becomes the foundation of love upon which children thrive. That is precious and valuable and worth doing a lot of work for, in my opinion.
But, as I said in my first paragraph, that work is not yours to do. It is your husband's. Your role can only be in motivating him and supporting him to do the work of healing *himself*, so that he becomes capable of sharing your vision of grandmother-love nourishing your child, and then from there he may become willing to do the very difficult work of creating the limited, boundaried, carefully curated opportunities to enable grandma's presence in your son's life.
How do I know that your partner has not healed from his wounds? Because you say the following:
- "I likely wouldn't have considered her offense as such a major infraction, but I'm definitely sympathetic to why my partner did"
- According to him it’s civil but shallow and he usually comes home feeling quite sad. Predictably, we’re questioning the sustainability of such a shallow arrangement
These are the hallmarks of unresolved trauma: a relatively minor infraction that becomes the symbol of all of the unresolved pain of that relationship.... which shows your partner's triggers are still quite active. A persistent feeling that interactions with the narcissistic abuser are unsatisfying/fake/shallow because there is no remorse, no true apology, no amends, no acknowledgement of the wounds of abuse.... which shows your partner is approaching these interactions with the expectation that his mother has changed, become better than who she is. In many ways your partner is still turning back the clock when in his mother's presence, angry with her for hurting him in devastating ways and desperately hoping his mommy might become good somehow. THIS IS UNRESOLVED TRAUMA.
Your partner's long history of having lived with his narcissistic mother has left him is wary and exhausted and frustrated at how set she is in her narcissistic ways, how clueless she is about the pain she causes to others, how unwilling she is to examine her own failures. His feelings are 100% valid. Nobody escapes a narcissist unscathed, and relationships with narcissists ought to be damaged so that people like your husband may escape the terrifying web of power and control they have been trapped in.
But where we go wrong is when we start to think that merely escaping the terrifying web of power and control is your husband's happy ending. Folks giving advice on the internet -places like Captain Awkward or r/raisedbynarcissists etc - are especially guilty of saying that going no-contact is the triumphant happy ending for anyone in these circumstances. He left home. He cut contact. Confetti, soaring music, end credits roll, huzzah?
NOPE. In reality, escaping from the narcissist's clutches is only the beginning of the work of healing. It is literally just the first step.
Most people need to do a lot of therapy in order to fully process all of the damage, all of the anger and hurt and betrayal, and truly understand what went wrong in the story of their family that led to not just this estrangement but also the damaging childhood that preceded it, the generational cycles of dysfunction that allowed the narcissism to flourish unchecked, etc. Coming to terms with this stuff takes years. But it's possible. Full healing is a real possibility, and I know because I've been there and done that. There is a place that a person can reach where they are at peace with themselves and their own history, where they have "truly given up hope for a new past," to quote an mid-20th century psychologist.
When someone reaches this place of healing, they stop looking for apologies or resolution or remorse or closure from their abuser. They also stop flying off the handle at relatively minor incidents just because it reminds them of past trauma. They become capable of setting the past firmly behind them, and dealing with the present on its own terms.
Take a look at the present on its own terms.
Your MIL is a ridiculous person given to temper tantrums and dramatic pronouncements on the internet. She will never apologize, never develop self awareness, never understand, never make amends. Okay. She is also utterly harmless to you and your partner. She has no power over you whatsoever. Your partner is no longer at her mercy. She can't hurt him. She might try a lot of shenanigans. She can try to turn people against you or make up stories or affect heartbreak for attention. And it's possible for your partner to find ways to deal with her acting out as calmly and firmly as he would with a toddler.
And in the meantime, she also really seems to delight in her grandchild. She wants desperately to connect with her grandson and stay in his life. And you know how valuable that type of connection can be for your kid. Just like it's possible for your family to have fun with a rambunctious toddler who knows no boundaries nor the word sorry, it is possible for you to have fun with grandma. But it can't happen as long as your partner carries unresolved pain and trauma which are making him angry, disappointed and hurt every time he interacts with her. If he heals, she might be able to stay in your kid's life.
posted by MiraK at 6:04 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
However, I also want to say that I 100% agree with your impulse to want your children to have a relationship with their grandparents. Too often people - especially people on the internet - are eager to label someone a "narcissist", which to them usually means "all bad", enough of a reason to write a person off entirely because they are dangerous, like a poisonous snake.
In reality, even people who are intermittently narcissistic and angry and toxic are not invariably or constantly so. Just as it's possible for humans to interact with poisonous snakes safely and rewardingly, so too can you allow the narcissist in your family be allowed in your children's lives in limited, boundaried ways, to their benefit. It's likely very possible for you to design and orchestrate their presence in your children's lives in such a way as to extract maximum joy for all parties involved and minimize the risk of pain to yourself and your kids.
It's a lot of work for sure (I do plan to explain the basics of it later in this comment) and anyone would need a compelling reason to do that work. It sounds to me like you do have that compelling reason: you want your child to have a grandparent. This is IMO a worthy reason. Grandparents do not grow on trees. Even when a grandparent is severely limited by careful boundaries set by parents (i.e. not a "normal" grandparent by any means), if such a limited grandparent is able to delight in their grandchild, their joy and delight becomes the foundation of love upon which children thrive. That is precious and valuable and worth doing a lot of work for, in my opinion.
But, as I said in my first paragraph, that work is not yours to do. It is your husband's. Your role can only be in motivating him and supporting him to do the work of healing *himself*, so that he becomes capable of sharing your vision of grandmother-love nourishing your child, and then from there he may become willing to do the very difficult work of creating the limited, boundaried, carefully curated opportunities to enable grandma's presence in your son's life.
How do I know that your partner has not healed from his wounds? Because you say the following:
- "I likely wouldn't have considered her offense as such a major infraction, but I'm definitely sympathetic to why my partner did"
- According to him it’s civil but shallow and he usually comes home feeling quite sad. Predictably, we’re questioning the sustainability of such a shallow arrangement
These are the hallmarks of unresolved trauma: a relatively minor infraction that becomes the symbol of all of the unresolved pain of that relationship.... which shows your partner's triggers are still quite active. A persistent feeling that interactions with the narcissistic abuser are unsatisfying/fake/shallow because there is no remorse, no true apology, no amends, no acknowledgement of the wounds of abuse.... which shows your partner is approaching these interactions with the expectation that his mother has changed, become better than who she is. In many ways your partner is still turning back the clock when in his mother's presence, angry with her for hurting him in devastating ways and desperately hoping his mommy might become good somehow. THIS IS UNRESOLVED TRAUMA.
Your partner's long history of having lived with his narcissistic mother has left him is wary and exhausted and frustrated at how set she is in her narcissistic ways, how clueless she is about the pain she causes to others, how unwilling she is to examine her own failures. His feelings are 100% valid. Nobody escapes a narcissist unscathed, and relationships with narcissists ought to be damaged so that people like your husband may escape the terrifying web of power and control they have been trapped in.
But where we go wrong is when we start to think that merely escaping the terrifying web of power and control is your husband's happy ending. Folks giving advice on the internet -places like Captain Awkward or r/raisedbynarcissists etc - are especially guilty of saying that going no-contact is the triumphant happy ending for anyone in these circumstances. He left home. He cut contact. Confetti, soaring music, end credits roll, huzzah?
NOPE. In reality, escaping from the narcissist's clutches is only the beginning of the work of healing. It is literally just the first step.
Most people need to do a lot of therapy in order to fully process all of the damage, all of the anger and hurt and betrayal, and truly understand what went wrong in the story of their family that led to not just this estrangement but also the damaging childhood that preceded it, the generational cycles of dysfunction that allowed the narcissism to flourish unchecked, etc. Coming to terms with this stuff takes years. But it's possible. Full healing is a real possibility, and I know because I've been there and done that. There is a place that a person can reach where they are at peace with themselves and their own history, where they have "truly given up hope for a new past," to quote an mid-20th century psychologist.
When someone reaches this place of healing, they stop looking for apologies or resolution or remorse or closure from their abuser. They also stop flying off the handle at relatively minor incidents just because it reminds them of past trauma. They become capable of setting the past firmly behind them, and dealing with the present on its own terms.
Take a look at the present on its own terms.
Your MIL is a ridiculous person given to temper tantrums and dramatic pronouncements on the internet. She will never apologize, never develop self awareness, never understand, never make amends. Okay. She is also utterly harmless to you and your partner. She has no power over you whatsoever. Your partner is no longer at her mercy. She can't hurt him. She might try a lot of shenanigans. She can try to turn people against you or make up stories or affect heartbreak for attention. And it's possible for your partner to find ways to deal with her acting out as calmly and firmly as he would with a toddler.
And in the meantime, she also really seems to delight in her grandchild. She wants desperately to connect with her grandson and stay in his life. And you know how valuable that type of connection can be for your kid. Just like it's possible for your family to have fun with a rambunctious toddler who knows no boundaries nor the word sorry, it is possible for you to have fun with grandma. But it can't happen as long as your partner carries unresolved pain and trauma which are making him angry, disappointed and hurt every time he interacts with her. If he heals, she might be able to stay in your kid's life.
posted by MiraK at 6:04 PM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
your child will be haunted for life by the inexplicably nasty acts of an elder that they're supposed to love.
Yeah, there's nothing quite like the headfuck of "But Grammy loves you! You have to love Grammy!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:05 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yeah, there's nothing quite like the headfuck of "But Grammy loves you! You have to love Grammy!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:05 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
I went through something kind of like this when my kid was born. Not the same systems, but the same sort of "unacknowledged serious family stuff becomes impossible to ignore or fix when kid arrives." It sucks and I'm sorry.
One thing I'll say is I remember the "trying to pretend everything was fine" moments, each of them, with so much sadness. It was like walking through a crowded rusty basement with the lights off. As long as everyone couldn't see what was surrounding us, there was not some other way to make it acceptably safe. It was exactly the false-hope-for-a-new-past feeling MiraK describes.
The other thing I'll say is to think hard about ring theory -- "comfort in, dump out." You're lucky that right now you get to do that for your partner; it can get worse. The reason people are emphasizing that you need to let your partner take the lead is because that's so much better and easier -- support your partner who was traumatized by their parent, seek support from outside your relationship for how this weighs on you. The alternative, hard mode, is when the thing that traumatized your partner goes on to traumatize you or your kid, and you and your partner don't agree about what to do next. There is no ring theory to explain what you do after that. Just don't get there.
MiraK is wise to talk about the need to heal from trauma but I guess I'd just add, don't let the growth of the kid be some sort of guilt-inspiring timetable on that; I don't think pressure and healing quite go together that way.
posted by john hadron collider at 6:51 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
One thing I'll say is I remember the "trying to pretend everything was fine" moments, each of them, with so much sadness. It was like walking through a crowded rusty basement with the lights off. As long as everyone couldn't see what was surrounding us, there was not some other way to make it acceptably safe. It was exactly the false-hope-for-a-new-past feeling MiraK describes.
The other thing I'll say is to think hard about ring theory -- "comfort in, dump out." You're lucky that right now you get to do that for your partner; it can get worse. The reason people are emphasizing that you need to let your partner take the lead is because that's so much better and easier -- support your partner who was traumatized by their parent, seek support from outside your relationship for how this weighs on you. The alternative, hard mode, is when the thing that traumatized your partner goes on to traumatize you or your kid, and you and your partner don't agree about what to do next. There is no ring theory to explain what you do after that. Just don't get there.
MiraK is wise to talk about the need to heal from trauma but I guess I'd just add, don't let the growth of the kid be some sort of guilt-inspiring timetable on that; I don't think pressure and healing quite go together that way.
posted by john hadron collider at 6:51 PM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
I am with heavenknows, and as unpopular as that side is, I'm going to leave this article here which shook me to the core. Everyone should make the decision that's right for them, but estranging a parent over a cranky Instagram post is a bit too much, in my opinion. (Yes, I know there's more going on, but that seems to have been the trigger somehow?)
posted by redlines at 7:42 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by redlines at 7:42 PM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
With respect, calling your child a "sadistic toxic elder and child abuser who use[s] their kids to work their craft." is well beyond merely being cranky in many people's books.
I will note in that article you link to, the children are often citing "emotional, physical, or sexual abuse in childhood by the parent, "toxic" behaviors such as disrespect or hurtfulness, feeling unsupported, and clashes in values." The article goes on to state that parents "blame the estrangement on their divorce, their child’s spouse, or what they perceive as their child’s "entitlement."" which is pretty much in line with the dissonance many people are citing here.
Having a parent who is emotionally or physically abusive to you and then blames you not wanting to see them on your spouse is kind of textbook what the issue is here. People outside the situation do not see the situation in the same way that men tend not to see the pervasive harassment of women that is perpetuated primarily by other men, because part of the harassment is the plausible denial that the harassment is even happening.
There may be ways for the family to make their peace with grandma, but it's also probably necessary to, as MiraK says, acknowledge that there is something fundamentally broken with her that can not just be worked out by reasoning with her more.
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 PM on February 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
I will note in that article you link to, the children are often citing "emotional, physical, or sexual abuse in childhood by the parent, "toxic" behaviors such as disrespect or hurtfulness, feeling unsupported, and clashes in values." The article goes on to state that parents "blame the estrangement on their divorce, their child’s spouse, or what they perceive as their child’s "entitlement."" which is pretty much in line with the dissonance many people are citing here.
Having a parent who is emotionally or physically abusive to you and then blames you not wanting to see them on your spouse is kind of textbook what the issue is here. People outside the situation do not see the situation in the same way that men tend not to see the pervasive harassment of women that is perpetuated primarily by other men, because part of the harassment is the plausible denial that the harassment is even happening.
There may be ways for the family to make their peace with grandma, but it's also probably necessary to, as MiraK says, acknowledge that there is something fundamentally broken with her that can not just be worked out by reasoning with her more.
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 PM on February 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
I was thinking about how to respond to this. Really, you should take your husband lead on this. Just because this instance wasn't that big to you, doesn't mean it isn't part of a pattern that could get much bigger. It's not much of a step to be claiming child abuse online to be calling DCFS/CPS because she didn't agree with a parenting decision.
People with Narcissistic traits also do split people in a variety of ways. Sometimes they will treat people in their favor differently, sometimes they will create tension by favoring for awhile. You disagreeing with your husband on this falls into that pattern. And you cannot trust that you can maintain whatever relationship you have with her. It can crumble in a heartbeat over a reasonable request.
Four children of this person have all said this is enough. All for their own reasons and incidents. Heed the red flags before you build your own that are more than online posts and baseless accusaions. These things can escalate.
Whatever interactions you have, you need to make sure you and your husband are both on the same page and that you've discussed actions to any behavior she might have. If you act differently from eachother it will be seized upon for her gain.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:01 AM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
People with Narcissistic traits also do split people in a variety of ways. Sometimes they will treat people in their favor differently, sometimes they will create tension by favoring for awhile. You disagreeing with your husband on this falls into that pattern. And you cannot trust that you can maintain whatever relationship you have with her. It can crumble in a heartbeat over a reasonable request.
Four children of this person have all said this is enough. All for their own reasons and incidents. Heed the red flags before you build your own that are more than online posts and baseless accusaions. These things can escalate.
Whatever interactions you have, you need to make sure you and your husband are both on the same page and that you've discussed actions to any behavior she might have. If you act differently from eachother it will be seized upon for her gain.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:01 AM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I had a very toxic grandmother on my dad's side, herself the product of abuse who perpetuated the same to her son who perpetuated the same to me. My parents never had the stones to disentangle themselves from this situation, and generally went along with whatever nonsense she demanded in order to keep the peace, sometimes with vague threats of vague future financial support being withdrawn if anyone in her inner circle refused to comply with her need to control everyone around her.
This taught me any number of lessons, mainly that that it was okay for other people to treat me and my family absolutely horribly and our job was to sit there and take it so as never to provoke them, and that receiving emotional abuse was a reasonable compromise in order to also receive money, gifts and other financial support. That my parents did not consider it their job to keep child-me safe from this kind of situation even though many other parents do consider that part of the job of raising kids.
I had no idea until I was an adult and had left my family situation that these behaviours weren't normal and that many people were capable of making healthier choices than my parents chose to make in similar scenarios, including cutting off contact with people who seem unable to help themselves from abusing and manipulating their nearest and dearest.
The idea of a relationship with one's grandparents being a positive force in everyone's life is largely a cultural myth. It can be a wonderful relationship, but only if the people involved are decent and caring. The myth breaks down when we slot actual people into the roles of "grandparent" and "grandchild". When you say your heart breaks at the idea of your son not having a relationship with this grandmother, even though she also comes across as a tremendously unsafe person for adults to be around (let alone children) from your description of her behaviour, it sounds like you're mourning the idea of a relationship that your actual MIL probably isn't capable of building or sustaining with your son.
My heart breaks for myself, that my parents didn't see it as their job to protect me from someone who was abusive because they'd already normalised that level abuse in their lives long before I was born. The fact that I grew up in this environment still impacts my self esteem, sense of right and wrong and mental health as an adult.
As a parent, you have comparatively limited power to change your MIL's behaviour or her choices about how she interacts with other people, and comparatively tremendous power to keep your kid safe from unsafe people, particularly while he's still this young. As someone who suffered tremendously from being raised by people who had no idea that this was a power they could flex for my and their benefit, I would strongly urge you to let go of your grief about a fantasy relationship and focus on making all of the relationships your son does have as strong, safe and loving as possible.
posted by terretu at 3:13 AM on February 9, 2021 [18 favorites]
This taught me any number of lessons, mainly that that it was okay for other people to treat me and my family absolutely horribly and our job was to sit there and take it so as never to provoke them, and that receiving emotional abuse was a reasonable compromise in order to also receive money, gifts and other financial support. That my parents did not consider it their job to keep child-me safe from this kind of situation even though many other parents do consider that part of the job of raising kids.
I had no idea until I was an adult and had left my family situation that these behaviours weren't normal and that many people were capable of making healthier choices than my parents chose to make in similar scenarios, including cutting off contact with people who seem unable to help themselves from abusing and manipulating their nearest and dearest.
The idea of a relationship with one's grandparents being a positive force in everyone's life is largely a cultural myth. It can be a wonderful relationship, but only if the people involved are decent and caring. The myth breaks down when we slot actual people into the roles of "grandparent" and "grandchild". When you say your heart breaks at the idea of your son not having a relationship with this grandmother, even though she also comes across as a tremendously unsafe person for adults to be around (let alone children) from your description of her behaviour, it sounds like you're mourning the idea of a relationship that your actual MIL probably isn't capable of building or sustaining with your son.
My heart breaks for myself, that my parents didn't see it as their job to protect me from someone who was abusive because they'd already normalised that level abuse in their lives long before I was born. The fact that I grew up in this environment still impacts my self esteem, sense of right and wrong and mental health as an adult.
As a parent, you have comparatively limited power to change your MIL's behaviour or her choices about how she interacts with other people, and comparatively tremendous power to keep your kid safe from unsafe people, particularly while he's still this young. As someone who suffered tremendously from being raised by people who had no idea that this was a power they could flex for my and their benefit, I would strongly urge you to let go of your grief about a fantasy relationship and focus on making all of the relationships your son does have as strong, safe and loving as possible.
posted by terretu at 3:13 AM on February 9, 2021 [18 favorites]
IME narcissists will always always always take any overtures toward reconciliation as an admission that you were wrong and they were right. They might behave better for a while as they feel magnanimous while enveloped in the glow of their righteous vindication, but soon the bad behavior will resume, worse than before.
She's being denied contract with your child because of her behavior, not yours. If she wants to feel better, the responsibility is on her to change.
You are totally powerless to create any condition that will cause her to improve her behavior. She doesn't want to change, she sees no need to change. If you reach out you will be signaling that her behavior is acceptable.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:04 PM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
She's being denied contract with your child because of her behavior, not yours. If she wants to feel better, the responsibility is on her to change.
You are totally powerless to create any condition that will cause her to improve her behavior. She doesn't want to change, she sees no need to change. If you reach out you will be signaling that her behavior is acceptable.
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 12:04 PM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I haven't had a chance to read through each comment yet, but most certainly will and meanwhile...damn. Thank you.
A selection of thoughts in response for those still following:
-No, I don't have much previous experience with narcissism before my MIL so, yes, I'm on the learning curve. Before now, the advice I've gotten around this and trust most echoes the core of what a majority of you are saying here. Very affirming. "Find space for the sadness," yes.
- I am committed to supporting my partner and honoring his boundaries. I don't think I'm trying to "end run him cutting her off"; he's not "Done with a capital D" so much as he is very low on hope. Though I appreciate the poke, and the incentive it gives me examine more carefully my motives in crowd-sourcing my question.
- I am way committed to protecting this boy of mine. Again, good grist for the mill why MIL's heartbreak weighs most heavily for me of all the casualties here.
- The "family of choice" comments make a lot of sense. I come from a tight-knit nuclear and extended family of origin so definitely growing pains in letting go of MIL and the threat that could post to closeness with some of MIL's siblings. And am mourning the loss of another bio-grandparent, my dad, who died six years ago. But we've got an embarrassment of riches in terms of loving friends and family.
posted by AlmondEyes at 12:38 PM on February 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
A selection of thoughts in response for those still following:
-No, I don't have much previous experience with narcissism before my MIL so, yes, I'm on the learning curve. Before now, the advice I've gotten around this and trust most echoes the core of what a majority of you are saying here. Very affirming. "Find space for the sadness," yes.
- I am committed to supporting my partner and honoring his boundaries. I don't think I'm trying to "end run him cutting her off"; he's not "Done with a capital D" so much as he is very low on hope. Though I appreciate the poke, and the incentive it gives me examine more carefully my motives in crowd-sourcing my question.
- I am way committed to protecting this boy of mine. Again, good grist for the mill why MIL's heartbreak weighs most heavily for me of all the casualties here.
- The "family of choice" comments make a lot of sense. I come from a tight-knit nuclear and extended family of origin so definitely growing pains in letting go of MIL and the threat that could post to closeness with some of MIL's siblings. And am mourning the loss of another bio-grandparent, my dad, who died six years ago. But we've got an embarrassment of riches in terms of loving friends and family.
posted by AlmondEyes at 12:38 PM on February 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
I come from a tight-knit nuclear and extended family of origin
Yeah, that's probably why it's hard for you to get. For you, family equals love, not stress/hate/all the bad things. You think of the grandparent relationship as something warm and loving, which is probably not your SO's experience. Sometimes families are like drinking mildly poisoned water: you need the water to stay alive, you can't get any other water, but it's not good for you other than bare survival.
A friend of mine who has a shitty set of parents who don't like her married a guy with a neglectful, flaky mother. She said she's glad he also comes from a horrible family, because he understands in a way that someone from a functional family wouldn't. For you, you keep thinking it could be saved because that's your experience, whereas your SO has been going through drama for decades and nothing has gotten better. SAVE THE FAMILY!!!!! doesn't always work if the family members are determined to be awful. There's a lot of articles out there about people who cut off their toxic parents and they don't have regrets.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:30 PM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's probably why it's hard for you to get. For you, family equals love, not stress/hate/all the bad things. You think of the grandparent relationship as something warm and loving, which is probably not your SO's experience. Sometimes families are like drinking mildly poisoned water: you need the water to stay alive, you can't get any other water, but it's not good for you other than bare survival.
A friend of mine who has a shitty set of parents who don't like her married a guy with a neglectful, flaky mother. She said she's glad he also comes from a horrible family, because he understands in a way that someone from a functional family wouldn't. For you, you keep thinking it could be saved because that's your experience, whereas your SO has been going through drama for decades and nothing has gotten better. SAVE THE FAMILY!!!!! doesn't always work if the family members are determined to be awful. There's a lot of articles out there about people who cut off their toxic parents and they don't have regrets.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:30 PM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
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You're kind hearted, but you must think of your child's health first.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:21 PM on February 8, 2021 [57 favorites]