M1 Mac and Windows
February 8, 2021 7:45 AM Subscribe
Hello fine people. I have been searching for a new Windows laptop. The main reason for this is my collection of older software that I would love to keep, including Adobe CS6. I also actually prefer Windows to macOS for a number of productivity reasons for my work. However, I can't seem to find a Windows laptop that checks all the quality boxes like a MacBook Pro (oh, that buttery smooth trackpad!). Could I realistically use a Mac as my prime Windows machine?
So, I know that in the previous Intel Macs, it was possible to run Windows. I believe it actually ran quite well, too, although I don't have any first-hand experience. I also know that the switch to the new M1 chips has killed this functionality for now.
However, I came across this article: M1 Macs and Windows.
While it certainly sounds like it is not ready for prime-time yet, it does give me hope. The question is, will improvements to CrossOver come quickly enough, and be robust enough, to not only run Windows but also run it as well as it would run on an XPS, for example. On top of that, do you think it will be even possible to run my older software?
The answers I get to this will determine whether or not I need to resign myself to purchasing a PC laptop with a "trackpad is not as good as a Mac", "the keyboard is not as good as a Mac", and "the build quality is not as good as a Mac"! Just for your information, I was considering the Dell XPS 17, but there are so many complaints about various failures.
Thanks!
So, I know that in the previous Intel Macs, it was possible to run Windows. I believe it actually ran quite well, too, although I don't have any first-hand experience. I also know that the switch to the new M1 chips has killed this functionality for now.
However, I came across this article: M1 Macs and Windows.
While it certainly sounds like it is not ready for prime-time yet, it does give me hope. The question is, will improvements to CrossOver come quickly enough, and be robust enough, to not only run Windows but also run it as well as it would run on an XPS, for example. On top of that, do you think it will be even possible to run my older software?
The answers I get to this will determine whether or not I need to resign myself to purchasing a PC laptop with a "trackpad is not as good as a Mac", "the keyboard is not as good as a Mac", and "the build quality is not as good as a Mac"! Just for your information, I was considering the Dell XPS 17, but there are so many complaints about various failures.
Thanks!
I've happily run MacOS and Windows on my iMac and Macbook Pro using Parallels for a number of years. It looks as though Parallels is not quite there with M1 chip support, but it shouldn't be too long. Parallels is good robust software, though it does mean an additional subscription cost.
More about other services here. I'd trust that it will be possible soon, but in your place wouldn't take the plunge until solutions are in place.
posted by altolinguistic at 8:43 AM on February 8, 2021
More about other services here. I'd trust that it will be possible soon, but in your place wouldn't take the plunge until solutions are in place.
posted by altolinguistic at 8:43 AM on February 8, 2021
The CodeWeavers site has a compatibility database, though I'm not sure you can find much info yet on whether it runs on M1 Hardware.
You can still look whether the compatibility database shows strong support for your software, though. The entry for CS6 shows only one star but the only entry is from 2012.
My guess is we're six to 12 months from CrossOver or virtualization software like Parallels / VMware / VirtualBox being able to run a suite of Windows software well enough (fast enough, reliably enough, without any corner case bugs) that I'd take the plunge.
Right now I think you'd be better off buying an Intel-based Mac and using VMware or something to run a Windows VM than taking the plunge on M1 hardware right now. Especially since you can get an Intel-based model with 32GB or 64GB of RAM while all the M1 models are limited to 16GB currently.
If you're considering Windows machines then I'd look to Lenovo Carbon X1 systems. They're probably the best Windows machines IMO.
posted by jzb at 8:44 AM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
You can still look whether the compatibility database shows strong support for your software, though. The entry for CS6 shows only one star but the only entry is from 2012.
My guess is we're six to 12 months from CrossOver or virtualization software like Parallels / VMware / VirtualBox being able to run a suite of Windows software well enough (fast enough, reliably enough, without any corner case bugs) that I'd take the plunge.
Right now I think you'd be better off buying an Intel-based Mac and using VMware or something to run a Windows VM than taking the plunge on M1 hardware right now. Especially since you can get an Intel-based model with 32GB or 64GB of RAM while all the M1 models are limited to 16GB currently.
If you're considering Windows machines then I'd look to Lenovo Carbon X1 systems. They're probably the best Windows machines IMO.
posted by jzb at 8:44 AM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you want to run Windows, and especially an old version of Adobe suite (CS6 is real old at this point), you don't want an M1 machine. Yes, eventually Parallels will get Windows running on the M1 Macs but that'll be Windows for Arm, aka the version you get on the other Arm-based Windows laptops (like the Surface Pro X). Whether or not CS6 apps specifically will run well on that is another question - there will never be an Arm version of those things, they will always have to run in an emulator. (They should run, however, but historically Microsoft's translation layer hasn't been all that good.)
You also mention the XPS 17 - there's no M1-based MacBook Pro 16" yet. Unless you're OK with getting a 13" laptop, you'd be looking at that 16" machine anyway, which is all Intel at the moment (and should thus be able to run regular Windows via Boot Camp or Paralles/VMWare quite well). Other than that, I can't speak to specific machines but the Dell XPS line and the HP Spectre/Envy lines review quite well (and generally the touchpad situation is a lot better on Windows now that there's the Precision Touchpad things). You can also still get Intel 13" MacBook Pros too. (The M1 is a great chip and does a lot of amazing things but at this point it's not a replacement for a real high-test x86 CPU, like the Core i7/i9s or the equivalent AMD Ryzen chips, however close it may come to doing that.)
posted by mrg at 9:45 AM on February 8, 2021
You also mention the XPS 17 - there's no M1-based MacBook Pro 16" yet. Unless you're OK with getting a 13" laptop, you'd be looking at that 16" machine anyway, which is all Intel at the moment (and should thus be able to run regular Windows via Boot Camp or Paralles/VMWare quite well). Other than that, I can't speak to specific machines but the Dell XPS line and the HP Spectre/Envy lines review quite well (and generally the touchpad situation is a lot better on Windows now that there's the Precision Touchpad things). You can also still get Intel 13" MacBook Pros too. (The M1 is a great chip and does a lot of amazing things but at this point it's not a replacement for a real high-test x86 CPU, like the Core i7/i9s or the equivalent AMD Ryzen chips, however close it may come to doing that.)
posted by mrg at 9:45 AM on February 8, 2021
I wouldn't buy an M1 Mac based on its ability to run Windows programs through emulation. If you need to do this now, buy an Intel-based computer. Whether that computer is an Intel-based Mac is up to you. Through Boot Camp Assistant Apple provides a full set of Windows drivers for its hardware. I don't have a super-recent laptop but everything worked for me when I installed it on this 2015 Macbook Pro, and they released updated drivers not long after the 16" MBP came out in 2019. I'd research the specific model you're looking at before you buy it, just to make sure the device support isn't limited in some way. And if you buy a Mac make sure you get a model with a proper scissor switch keyboard, not the dreaded butterfly.
posted by fedward at 9:57 AM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by fedward at 9:57 AM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Having just replaced a 2018 MBP with an M1 MBP, I concur with the advice to hold off, and probably get an Intel mac.
I can also attest that the sole reason I replaced the otherwise perfectly cromulent 2018 was that I could no longer stand the fucking butterfly keyboard for even another month. If you buy an Intel Mac laptop, absolutely avoid any so-equipped device. It took 20% off my typing speed and accuracy from day one, and never got better. With the new M1 I feel like I had a cast removed from my hands.
I am not over it and haven’t quite forgiven Apple for it either. That butterfly Macbook was a $2000 mistake.
posted by spitbull at 10:07 AM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
I can also attest that the sole reason I replaced the otherwise perfectly cromulent 2018 was that I could no longer stand the fucking butterfly keyboard for even another month. If you buy an Intel Mac laptop, absolutely avoid any so-equipped device. It took 20% off my typing speed and accuracy from day one, and never got better. With the new M1 I feel like I had a cast removed from my hands.
I am not over it and haven’t quite forgiven Apple for it either. That butterfly Macbook was a $2000 mistake.
posted by spitbull at 10:07 AM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Apple's high quality is inextricably linked to tight integration of hardware and software.
That buttery-smooth trackpad you mentioned is a great example: if you try running native Windows under Bootcamp, you will find the trackpad just doesn't work all that well under Windows. It goes from buttery-smooth to merely acceptable, and slightly janky at times—just like how other trackpads on Windows tend to be.
Take it the other way, and bring a third-party trackpad to a Mac, and it's the same situation: it'll work, but the scrolling and the gestures are never quite as smooth.
Apple hardware is at its best when it's running Apple software, and vice versa. Apple knows this, and has doubled-down on that concept by designing its own chips to run its software. Making their hardware more open to other operating systems was a happy accident of switching to Intel, but those days are over.
I do think Parallels and other solutions will become available on M1 for compatibility purposes, but if you are more comfortable with Windows, just buy a high-quality PC and call it a day.
It won't be a Mac, sure, but without the Mac OS, that's a foregone conclusion.
posted by vitout at 11:26 AM on February 8, 2021
That buttery-smooth trackpad you mentioned is a great example: if you try running native Windows under Bootcamp, you will find the trackpad just doesn't work all that well under Windows. It goes from buttery-smooth to merely acceptable, and slightly janky at times—just like how other trackpads on Windows tend to be.
Take it the other way, and bring a third-party trackpad to a Mac, and it's the same situation: it'll work, but the scrolling and the gestures are never quite as smooth.
Apple hardware is at its best when it's running Apple software, and vice versa. Apple knows this, and has doubled-down on that concept by designing its own chips to run its software. Making their hardware more open to other operating systems was a happy accident of switching to Intel, but those days are over.
I do think Parallels and other solutions will become available on M1 for compatibility purposes, but if you are more comfortable with Windows, just buy a high-quality PC and call it a day.
It won't be a Mac, sure, but without the Mac OS, that's a foregone conclusion.
posted by vitout at 11:26 AM on February 8, 2021
If you really want Windows, you're probably best using a Windows laptop. Parallels/Vmware etc. are great for running key apps you need now and then, but if it's your primary environment you'll probably be happier with a Windows PC.
If you can work with OS X, the M1 Macs are fantastic. Great keyboard, great performance, great battery life. The best laptop I've used by far.
Lastly, I've bought around 10 Dell XPS laptops for our office, and nearly every one has had build quality issues. The weak spots appear to be the keyboard (buttons fall off) and the power connection to the motherboard breaking. We've stopped buying them and have switched to Lenovo X1 Carbon laptops and have had no issues.
posted by kaefer at 11:38 AM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you can work with OS X, the M1 Macs are fantastic. Great keyboard, great performance, great battery life. The best laptop I've used by far.
Lastly, I've bought around 10 Dell XPS laptops for our office, and nearly every one has had build quality issues. The weak spots appear to be the keyboard (buttons fall off) and the power connection to the motherboard breaking. We've stopped buying them and have switched to Lenovo X1 Carbon laptops and have had no issues.
posted by kaefer at 11:38 AM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
FWIW, you can still buy new Intel Mac Book Pros. They'll run Windows just fine.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:27 PM on February 8, 2021
posted by Thorzdad at 12:27 PM on February 8, 2021
you're probably best using a Windows laptop
So - I have been using a SurfaceBook 2 every day since April 2018 - I love it. The build is almost as slick as an Apple. Plus touchscreen, plus stylus, plus detachable tablet-like screen (none of which I use - but if you do graphics design, these things seem to review well).
Pricing is inline with Apple products, you are not going to save any money by buying a Surface.
But, I like it enough, that I would personally purchase another (this one is from a client for work)
posted by rozcakj at 1:38 PM on February 8, 2021
So - I have been using a SurfaceBook 2 every day since April 2018 - I love it. The build is almost as slick as an Apple. Plus touchscreen, plus stylus, plus detachable tablet-like screen (none of which I use - but if you do graphics design, these things seem to review well).
Pricing is inline with Apple products, you are not going to save any money by buying a Surface.
But, I like it enough, that I would personally purchase another (this one is from a client for work)
posted by rozcakj at 1:38 PM on February 8, 2021
Response by poster: These are exactly the helpful responses I was hoping for! I can see some of you have experienced the sort of thing that has made me shy on Dell XPS. I am in a position to wait, so that's exactly what I will do. What mrg says above is something I was concerned about, whether my old software will even work if I do manage to run Windows on a Mac. In that case, it wouldn't be worth it to me.
My real hope is that a truly MacBook Pro quality Windows laptop will be released!
posted by Don_K at 3:12 PM on February 8, 2021
My real hope is that a truly MacBook Pro quality Windows laptop will be released!
posted by Don_K at 3:12 PM on February 8, 2021
Response by poster: Update. I broke down and bought an XPS 17. I did not get a lemon! Even the trackpad is better than I expected from the reviews (many people had loose, rattly ones).
I still have my work MacBook Pro, which I use the most (working, not playing), so I feel I now have the best of both worlds.
Thanks for your help.
posted by Don_K at 6:23 AM on March 5, 2021
I still have my work MacBook Pro, which I use the most (working, not playing), so I feel I now have the best of both worlds.
Thanks for your help.
posted by Don_K at 6:23 AM on March 5, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
The M1 Macs will probably run Windows (including i386 programs) eventually, but I think you're right: it's not ready for prime-time yet.
OTOH, the M1 hasn't made it into the iMac line yet, so you can still get recent-spec Intel machines which will last a fair while, if a desktop machine would serve your needs. They also sell Intel MBPs, including the 16" which I understand has a better keyboard than the previous generation.
All my Apple machines (back to a 15" MBP from 2011) are still running, and still useable. The only hardware problem I've had was the graphics on my oldest MBP, but Apple took care of it once despite being out of warranty, and I paid ~$350 out of pocket to fix it the second time, and a couple hundred more to fix it the third time. (Yeah, I know, that sounds bad, but the machine was solid otherwise, with a nice high-res but pre-Retina screen and the same keyboard layout as all my other machines.) All my other machines have Just Worked.
Apple hardware is, IME, nicer than you can get with PC manufacturers, and not outrageously more expensive than PC (although it is much more expensive than bottom-shelf flimsy Windows laptops). The keyboard consistency is also really important to me...I hate learning a new, slightly different key layout and stroke feel.
posted by spacewrench at 8:04 AM on February 8, 2021 [1 favorite]