In health and sickness: how important is this?
January 28, 2021 2:48 PM Subscribe
My long-term partner revealed that she actually doesn’t believe in making a commitment for hard times. Difficulty level: I have an unpredictable and potentially disabling disease.
I (50F) am in a relationship with D (44F) for 20 years. The relationship has been challenging at times but we love each other and we made it work and we mostly have had excellent times together. It’s been a fun and enriching relationship, we are best friends, we both grew a lot together, we collaborate in professional-level creative endeavours, we get along incredibly well. D is a kind, generous, attractive, smart partner, who makes me laugh and laughs at my stupid jokes, who I admire and respect. I always felt very lucky.
Then, around 4 years ago, I got sick and after a long and tortuous process I was diagnosed with MS. The diagnosis was a bit traumatic, but after a long learning curve and lots of exploration and healing, I got over it, and finally have come to terms with it.
Since then things between us changed. First, from being a very sexual person, I became not very sexual, for physical and psychological reasons. As a couple, we were never super compatible sexually, but before we made it work. With this new element, it was hard, and we became sexless. Because of that we started couples therapy.
In therapy the focus quickly diverged from sex. I voiced that I felt betrayed by the fact that D never said anything to the tone of, “Don’t worry, I am here for you, you don’t have to go through this by yourself” during the diagnosis and MS treatment. In the beginning, I thought she was processing and trying to decide, but then it never happened. D says “I am committed to you,” in general terms, and only when pressured, and can’t spontaneously offer any sort of expression of commitment. She is unable to say, “I will be committed even if/when you become disabled” (My level of disability is currently invisible, I basically get very tired and have a couple cognitive and motor issues. If you don’t know me, you won’t notice that I have MS).
She never left, and always went to appointments with me. But D confirmed through several conversations in and out of therapy that she is not willing to make this type of “I will be there for you” commitment. In out last session she voiced that she thought this is a “conventional” form of relationship that she didn’t think she was interested in having, and she thought I wasn’t either.
I am hurt and disappointed. I admit that I thought that this should be the done thing in a relationship when illness happens, this promise to be there for the other, and the person not wanting to be there for the sick person should just leave. D is not leaving – this is puzzling, but she’s not leaving, probably because I’m doing fine for now. I feel humiliated just having had to ask for a commitment, actually. D claims I am fixated in this idea and cannot let it go. Maybe she’s right, but try as I might, this keeps bothering me.
It seems to me sometimes that it would be better just to break up, and I’ll have to do the break-up myself even though I love her! In practical terms, I am not looking forward to be by myself. For Reasons, we are one of these couples who do everything together, and being part of the couple accidentally became a huge part of my identity. So it’s scary. Realistically I’ll won’t ever be in another serious relationship, and I am not even sure if that’s OK. Maybe? And we do get along, we love each other, and perhaps we can figure out the sexual part again (or open the relationship, since it will become a more casual type of thing anyway). So we could have still a relationship with much lower stakes. It just feels weird to me. Can I get over the hurt? If I can be convinced that it’s OK to live in a not-committed relationship, I think I could (I’d probably go to therapy for that).
On the other hand, our therapist and D act like I am asking too much, and that it’s totally reasonable not wanting to be committed, since it’s so “hard,” and it’s a “big ask.” Incidentally, and of course it’s easy for me to say, I would have immediately said, “Shit, that’s awful, my love, but I’m here for you, you can count on me, I’ll never let you go through this alone” with no hesitation. And I know that it's somewhat a taboo to abandon a sick partner, so I appreciate D's honesty and willingness to get to know what she really wants, and not to stay or say things just out of obligation or pity – that would have been hell. Also the therapist talks as if it's just a matter of preference and worldview and it has nothing to do with morals – is she right about that?
But yeah it's unfair, I don’t have much to offer her in terms of guaranties. My next years could be next to normal and even awesome, or a total shit show – who knows? And maybe the loving thing to do for me is to let her go and find someone with whom D can be happy.
The question is the old “should I stay or should I go?” I read “Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay” and “scored” like 40 stays VS 1 ambiguous leave. And know this is going to resolve itself hopefully after we get vaccinated for covid and can get on with our lives, but I wanted to check with the hivemind to make sure I am not crazy.
Women and queer respondents preferable :) (but feel feel to contribute if you feel you have interesting insights!)
throw-away email dykesincrisis@gmail.com
I (50F) am in a relationship with D (44F) for 20 years. The relationship has been challenging at times but we love each other and we made it work and we mostly have had excellent times together. It’s been a fun and enriching relationship, we are best friends, we both grew a lot together, we collaborate in professional-level creative endeavours, we get along incredibly well. D is a kind, generous, attractive, smart partner, who makes me laugh and laughs at my stupid jokes, who I admire and respect. I always felt very lucky.
Then, around 4 years ago, I got sick and after a long and tortuous process I was diagnosed with MS. The diagnosis was a bit traumatic, but after a long learning curve and lots of exploration and healing, I got over it, and finally have come to terms with it.
Since then things between us changed. First, from being a very sexual person, I became not very sexual, for physical and psychological reasons. As a couple, we were never super compatible sexually, but before we made it work. With this new element, it was hard, and we became sexless. Because of that we started couples therapy.
In therapy the focus quickly diverged from sex. I voiced that I felt betrayed by the fact that D never said anything to the tone of, “Don’t worry, I am here for you, you don’t have to go through this by yourself” during the diagnosis and MS treatment. In the beginning, I thought she was processing and trying to decide, but then it never happened. D says “I am committed to you,” in general terms, and only when pressured, and can’t spontaneously offer any sort of expression of commitment. She is unable to say, “I will be committed even if/when you become disabled” (My level of disability is currently invisible, I basically get very tired and have a couple cognitive and motor issues. If you don’t know me, you won’t notice that I have MS).
She never left, and always went to appointments with me. But D confirmed through several conversations in and out of therapy that she is not willing to make this type of “I will be there for you” commitment. In out last session she voiced that she thought this is a “conventional” form of relationship that she didn’t think she was interested in having, and she thought I wasn’t either.
I am hurt and disappointed. I admit that I thought that this should be the done thing in a relationship when illness happens, this promise to be there for the other, and the person not wanting to be there for the sick person should just leave. D is not leaving – this is puzzling, but she’s not leaving, probably because I’m doing fine for now. I feel humiliated just having had to ask for a commitment, actually. D claims I am fixated in this idea and cannot let it go. Maybe she’s right, but try as I might, this keeps bothering me.
It seems to me sometimes that it would be better just to break up, and I’ll have to do the break-up myself even though I love her! In practical terms, I am not looking forward to be by myself. For Reasons, we are one of these couples who do everything together, and being part of the couple accidentally became a huge part of my identity. So it’s scary. Realistically I’ll won’t ever be in another serious relationship, and I am not even sure if that’s OK. Maybe? And we do get along, we love each other, and perhaps we can figure out the sexual part again (or open the relationship, since it will become a more casual type of thing anyway). So we could have still a relationship with much lower stakes. It just feels weird to me. Can I get over the hurt? If I can be convinced that it’s OK to live in a not-committed relationship, I think I could (I’d probably go to therapy for that).
On the other hand, our therapist and D act like I am asking too much, and that it’s totally reasonable not wanting to be committed, since it’s so “hard,” and it’s a “big ask.” Incidentally, and of course it’s easy for me to say, I would have immediately said, “Shit, that’s awful, my love, but I’m here for you, you can count on me, I’ll never let you go through this alone” with no hesitation. And I know that it's somewhat a taboo to abandon a sick partner, so I appreciate D's honesty and willingness to get to know what she really wants, and not to stay or say things just out of obligation or pity – that would have been hell. Also the therapist talks as if it's just a matter of preference and worldview and it has nothing to do with morals – is she right about that?
But yeah it's unfair, I don’t have much to offer her in terms of guaranties. My next years could be next to normal and even awesome, or a total shit show – who knows? And maybe the loving thing to do for me is to let her go and find someone with whom D can be happy.
The question is the old “should I stay or should I go?” I read “Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay” and “scored” like 40 stays VS 1 ambiguous leave. And know this is going to resolve itself hopefully after we get vaccinated for covid and can get on with our lives, but I wanted to check with the hivemind to make sure I am not crazy.
Women and queer respondents preferable :) (but feel feel to contribute if you feel you have interesting insights!)
throw-away email dykesincrisis@gmail.com
Maybe I’m a bitter cynic would take it as a good sign that she doesn‘t just chirp ‚i‘ll aaaaallwayyys be there‘...because she is realistic about what she can take, and maybe realistic about the challenges any relationship brings along. I mean, many partners would just pretend-commit to make you shut up about it. That doesn‘t mean they‘ll stay when the shit hits the fan. Just a perspective (40s, female, in long-term committed hetero relationship).
posted by The Toad at 2:59 PM on January 28, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by The Toad at 2:59 PM on January 28, 2021 [22 favorites]
A friend taught me that sometimes with relationship words it’s useful to talk about/describe what something *looks like* to each person rather than just using a word. At the time we were discussing monogamy, but I think this applies to “commitment” too. When you say you want commitment, what does that look like? To some people (not you, I gather) it could mean their partner not dating or sleeping with anyone else. To someone else it could mean financial support/entanglement. Or always living together in the same house. Or being someone’s primary physical caregiver if that ever becomes necessary. Or maintaining emotional intimacy. Or staying home from a social event if your partner can’t make it. Etc, etc.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:11 PM on January 28, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:11 PM on January 28, 2021 [22 favorites]
I'm sorry that you're going through this. I'm disabled and queer and my disability has always come up as an issue in romantic relationships. (I don't want to go into too much detail but I'm immune compromised and what this requires from a partner is fairly minimal, and yet). Living through this pandemic completely alone with no meaningful human contact for ~325 days has been pretty rough but it is so much better than it would have been if I'd been stuck with someone in my home who had a problem with my disability. I don't know why some people are like this -- unable or unwilling to even interact meaningfully with a person who has a disability, especially since disability can happen to anyone at any time -- but I think it's rooted in our deeply ableist society.
It is a sad truth, but we are both better off without someone like this as a significant other, even though I know it hurts. I wish you good luck and godspeed as you figure this out, but know that you are worth the basic amount of care that a disability may require. At our age it's not at all uncommon to have disabling health issues that require management. This is not a you problem, and I'm sorry that she's made it your problem to deal with.
Also, please get a new therapist just for yourself who does not say things like it's a "big ask" to want commitment from someone you've been dating for twenty years, especially if you have concerns around the fact that they may not want to support you in sickness! I promise you what you are asking for is NOT big or difficult. It's basic. I wish that our society wasn't so ableist, and it's messed up that a therapist said that to you. Honestly I would advise not going to this therapist anymore because they sound really ableist too. Saying that disabled people are also full human beings who deserve love and support from their life partner is not a preference or a way of thinking. You are not asking for too much when you ask to be accepted for who you are and supported by your partner of twenty years. Being disabled is really traumatizing, having serious health issues is also really traumatizing, and you deserve to have a therapist who works on this trauma with you and who helps you learn how to take care of yourself emotionally, because you deserve to have somebody looking out for your feelings. Take care.
posted by k8lin at 3:21 PM on January 28, 2021 [78 favorites]
It is a sad truth, but we are both better off without someone like this as a significant other, even though I know it hurts. I wish you good luck and godspeed as you figure this out, but know that you are worth the basic amount of care that a disability may require. At our age it's not at all uncommon to have disabling health issues that require management. This is not a you problem, and I'm sorry that she's made it your problem to deal with.
Also, please get a new therapist just for yourself who does not say things like it's a "big ask" to want commitment from someone you've been dating for twenty years, especially if you have concerns around the fact that they may not want to support you in sickness! I promise you what you are asking for is NOT big or difficult. It's basic. I wish that our society wasn't so ableist, and it's messed up that a therapist said that to you. Honestly I would advise not going to this therapist anymore because they sound really ableist too. Saying that disabled people are also full human beings who deserve love and support from their life partner is not a preference or a way of thinking. You are not asking for too much when you ask to be accepted for who you are and supported by your partner of twenty years. Being disabled is really traumatizing, having serious health issues is also really traumatizing, and you deserve to have a therapist who works on this trauma with you and who helps you learn how to take care of yourself emotionally, because you deserve to have somebody looking out for your feelings. Take care.
posted by k8lin at 3:21 PM on January 28, 2021 [78 favorites]
As someone with a disability, I'm offended on your behalf. Your therapist is out of line and you are worthy of the kind of person who will be there for you no matter what, which is not an unreasonable thing to want. I think that, unfortunately, your current partner just isn't able to do that for you, and I'm so sorry.
posted by Alensin at 3:50 PM on January 28, 2021 [39 favorites]
posted by Alensin at 3:50 PM on January 28, 2021 [39 favorites]
I would also be pretty thrown by this and I don't know what's up with your therapist's ableism but I guess my last question on this topic would be "What is it that you are anticipating will be over the line? At what point in my disease progression will you be leaving, so I can plan accordingly?"
Maybe this is a big weird communication blip and the question she thinks you're asking is nothing like what you mean (as said above by needs more cowbell). Maybe she already knows when she's going to leave but doesn't want to say. Maybe this is one of those highly-legalistic people who "never breaks a promise" and so never actually gives their word on anything (which is sometimes some family of origin trauma that can be brought out into the light and repaired) because they might have an unforeseen change of perspective one day.
There is some difference between "I don't want to deal with your disability after it reaches X point of inconvenience for me" and "I am afraid I won't be able to handle it/I'm afraid our relationship will one day degrade to the point that I should not stay but I'll have to because I said I would".
But based on what you've said this is a person who has required couple's therapy because she can't empathize with a libido affected by not only a neurological disease but the trauma and uncertainty and sense of betrayal that comes with diagnosis (on top of a lack of faith and trust in a partner who can't even try to assure you of their support), so it doesn't look super hopeful to me.
I don't think your expectations are unreasonable. I think you need your own (disability-informed) therapist to navigate your trauma and this situation. I think if you're not ready to ask for the specific terms under which she'll be leaving because you don't want to hear the answer yet, you should pause couple's counseling while you pursue your own.
I'm sorry, this sucks.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:52 PM on January 28, 2021 [38 favorites]
Maybe this is a big weird communication blip and the question she thinks you're asking is nothing like what you mean (as said above by needs more cowbell). Maybe she already knows when she's going to leave but doesn't want to say. Maybe this is one of those highly-legalistic people who "never breaks a promise" and so never actually gives their word on anything (which is sometimes some family of origin trauma that can be brought out into the light and repaired) because they might have an unforeseen change of perspective one day.
There is some difference between "I don't want to deal with your disability after it reaches X point of inconvenience for me" and "I am afraid I won't be able to handle it/I'm afraid our relationship will one day degrade to the point that I should not stay but I'll have to because I said I would".
But based on what you've said this is a person who has required couple's therapy because she can't empathize with a libido affected by not only a neurological disease but the trauma and uncertainty and sense of betrayal that comes with diagnosis (on top of a lack of faith and trust in a partner who can't even try to assure you of their support), so it doesn't look super hopeful to me.
I don't think your expectations are unreasonable. I think you need your own (disability-informed) therapist to navigate your trauma and this situation. I think if you're not ready to ask for the specific terms under which she'll be leaving because you don't want to hear the answer yet, you should pause couple's counseling while you pursue your own.
I'm sorry, this sucks.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:52 PM on January 28, 2021 [38 favorites]
I think there are some conversations you can’t get over, that just ring in your ears forever, sting just as much as the first time every time you think of them, because they reveal something fundamentally unacceptable to you. If this is one of those for you, and from here that sounds possible, you should honor that
posted by kapers at 4:36 PM on January 28, 2021 [55 favorites]
posted by kapers at 4:36 PM on January 28, 2021 [55 favorites]
I’m sorry this is happening to you. My situation is on the surface very different from yours (not queer, no chronic illness, kids) but my partner has made clear he can’t commit in hard times (or really any time he would be asked to make a substantial sacrifice).
It sucks and is very hard. One point I want to make is that if a declaration of their commitment is important to you, then it is important to you. Don’t let other people minimize that need or try to convince you that actually you are being unrealistic. I’ve had people do this, even people who have that kind of commitment in their own relationships, and over time I’ve realized it was because they had their own reasons for wanting me to stay partnered (familiarity and stability mostly).
I think others are right that you’ll eventually be happier out of this relationship. Me too. I have my own reasons for convincing myself to stay a bit longer even if I intellectually know I’m done and will be happier alone. Don’t beat yourself up for staying longer than you think is right. You’ll leave when you are ready to leave.
posted by scantee at 4:41 PM on January 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
It sucks and is very hard. One point I want to make is that if a declaration of their commitment is important to you, then it is important to you. Don’t let other people minimize that need or try to convince you that actually you are being unrealistic. I’ve had people do this, even people who have that kind of commitment in their own relationships, and over time I’ve realized it was because they had their own reasons for wanting me to stay partnered (familiarity and stability mostly).
I think others are right that you’ll eventually be happier out of this relationship. Me too. I have my own reasons for convincing myself to stay a bit longer even if I intellectually know I’m done and will be happier alone. Don’t beat yourself up for staying longer than you think is right. You’ll leave when you are ready to leave.
posted by scantee at 4:41 PM on January 28, 2021 [8 favorites]
a) you're not crazy. Your therapist's reaction seems immature and shallow to me - even if she ultimately disagrees, she should be able to empathize with and respect what you're feeling.
b) I don't know what the ultimate answer is, but I think it's worth trying to get to a point where your SO (if not your therapist) at least gets more insight about how it feels to be in your shoes. Both in terms of facing disability, and in terms of having the person you have loved for years say they might not stay with you as you get older.
c) Regardless of what you and your SO ultimately decide, I hope you have a strong support network (at least in non-pandemic times) that can be there for you in the future. If not, this is a good time to start building one. (I know it's not easy.) Even if you stay together, there's no way of knowing how her own health will change over time or what other challenges will come up - and the more people you can rely on, the easier it can be for all of you. This would be true even without MS in the picture.
posted by trig at 4:42 PM on January 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
b) I don't know what the ultimate answer is, but I think it's worth trying to get to a point where your SO (if not your therapist) at least gets more insight about how it feels to be in your shoes. Both in terms of facing disability, and in terms of having the person you have loved for years say they might not stay with you as you get older.
c) Regardless of what you and your SO ultimately decide, I hope you have a strong support network (at least in non-pandemic times) that can be there for you in the future. If not, this is a good time to start building one. (I know it's not easy.) Even if you stay together, there's no way of knowing how her own health will change over time or what other challenges will come up - and the more people you can rely on, the easier it can be for all of you. This would be true even without MS in the picture.
posted by trig at 4:42 PM on January 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Send this person away. You deserve to be cared for by the person by your side. And this person will not do that for you. Not now, when it's hypothetical. Definitely not later, when you really need them. Own your own life, and send them away now, so that you can surround yourself with friends and a new network of people who deserve a strong, resilient, take-no-shit person like you in their lives.
And feel free to reach out via MeMail, anon; for me it was lymphoma and lies.
posted by headnsouth at 4:52 PM on January 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
And feel free to reach out via MeMail, anon; for me it was lymphoma and lies.
posted by headnsouth at 4:52 PM on January 28, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not sure who you should run away from faster, your partner or your therapist. This isn’t an abstract question for you.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:52 PM on January 28, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 4:52 PM on January 28, 2021 [17 favorites]
Queer cis fella here. I don't want to color your questions too much with the specifics of my recent situation, but this should be all that is relevant, at least as a stating point for your decision-making process:
I am hurt and disappointed.
I found my way to therapy about 2 years ago, right at a very intense moment when a complicated situation that involved this kind of question was overwhelming me. The best summary I can give of what I got out of therapy was that I needed, needed to guide myself according to my values, my deepest-held values. All other information was detail built upon what and whether I could rectify my values--my own senses of justice, love, compassion, and partnership--with the situation. That was a difficult place to be, because I was coming to terms with being left in the lurch at the precise moment when I needed help the most, after a 12 year relationship, and immediately after helping my ex through a traumatic injury and recovery.
I am grateful to my therapist for introducing me to this notion of leaning into my values as life guides when all else seemed impossibly hard to bear. If it's any help, the work I put into this was through acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), which includes a lot of foundational work with exploring your values. Dr. Steven C. Hayes, a major developer of ACT, has a lot of freely-available writing on values, as well as worksheets/resources on exploring them. I hope they may be the help for you that they have been for me.
(And if you need someone to tell you: no, you're not crazy.)
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:00 PM on January 28, 2021 [23 favorites]
I am hurt and disappointed.
I found my way to therapy about 2 years ago, right at a very intense moment when a complicated situation that involved this kind of question was overwhelming me. The best summary I can give of what I got out of therapy was that I needed, needed to guide myself according to my values, my deepest-held values. All other information was detail built upon what and whether I could rectify my values--my own senses of justice, love, compassion, and partnership--with the situation. That was a difficult place to be, because I was coming to terms with being left in the lurch at the precise moment when I needed help the most, after a 12 year relationship, and immediately after helping my ex through a traumatic injury and recovery.
I am grateful to my therapist for introducing me to this notion of leaning into my values as life guides when all else seemed impossibly hard to bear. If it's any help, the work I put into this was through acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), which includes a lot of foundational work with exploring your values. Dr. Steven C. Hayes, a major developer of ACT, has a lot of freely-available writing on values, as well as worksheets/resources on exploring them. I hope they may be the help for you that they have been for me.
(And if you need someone to tell you: no, you're not crazy.)
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:00 PM on January 28, 2021 [23 favorites]
If you break up now, you will have time to build up your support system while you still have your current level of strength. An acquaintance of mine who is visibly affected by MS just got married last year, so don’t rule out the possibility that there may be another partner for you out there. Believe her when she tells you what she can’t be there for.
posted by matildaben at 5:30 PM on January 28, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by matildaben at 5:30 PM on January 28, 2021 [14 favorites]
I just want to say that I think this response from your partner and your therapist is bullshit. You deserve better. The sooner you leave, the sooner you can find someone who not only meets your needs, but actively wants to.
posted by danceswithlight at 5:59 PM on January 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by danceswithlight at 5:59 PM on January 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
I can see this is going to be an unpopular opinion but I'll throw it out there anyway:
I'm a woman married to man. I think the idea that I need to voice an intention around this would bother me. I don't really know why... Maybe it feels like overly focusing on words rather than actions.
I don't think that it makes one of you right and one of you wrong, but I think that you need something from your partner that she can't/won't give you, and the fact that it hurts you enough to keep pressuring her about it, thus causing this cycle of hurt to keep recurring, makes me think you'd be better off apart.
posted by sm1tten at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm a woman married to man. I think the idea that I need to voice an intention around this would bother me. I don't really know why... Maybe it feels like overly focusing on words rather than actions.
I don't think that it makes one of you right and one of you wrong, but I think that you need something from your partner that she can't/won't give you, and the fact that it hurts you enough to keep pressuring her about it, thus causing this cycle of hurt to keep recurring, makes me think you'd be better off apart.
posted by sm1tten at 6:06 PM on January 28, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wow, your therapist sounds awful. Just saying. Pretty sure mine would get angry if I told her what yours said. There are a lot of people who can manage to stay with their partner of 20 years when shit happens (like oh, my lesbian friend with MS). I know you're not bound to "in sickness and in health," but it would certainly be a surprise to find out she has no intention of doing so.
I guess I am kinda like "I respect your honesty" instead of her lying about this and then bailing on you one day, but as someone else said, I'd also ask "At what point in my disease progression will you be leaving, so I can plan accordingly?" Is she gonna split when you need a cane? Wheelchair? Service dog? Have to remodel the house? It would be good to know under the circumstances.
Beyond that, yeah, leaving during Covid isn't the best anyway, but I'd start to slowly detangle my finances and life from hers since she's intending to bail. If you co-own a house, figure out what you're doing about that when you break up, stop having joint accounts, etc.
Though it occurs to me afterwards that if the relationship has become sexless, maybe that's a factor here. If the disease has made you not want sex and presumably you won't be wanting sex the longer it goes on in the future, and that's important to her....maybe that is part of the issue?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:54 PM on January 28, 2021 [10 favorites]
I guess I am kinda like "I respect your honesty" instead of her lying about this and then bailing on you one day, but as someone else said, I'd also ask "At what point in my disease progression will you be leaving, so I can plan accordingly?" Is she gonna split when you need a cane? Wheelchair? Service dog? Have to remodel the house? It would be good to know under the circumstances.
Beyond that, yeah, leaving during Covid isn't the best anyway, but I'd start to slowly detangle my finances and life from hers since she's intending to bail. If you co-own a house, figure out what you're doing about that when you break up, stop having joint accounts, etc.
Though it occurs to me afterwards that if the relationship has become sexless, maybe that's a factor here. If the disease has made you not want sex and presumably you won't be wanting sex the longer it goes on in the future, and that's important to her....maybe that is part of the issue?
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:54 PM on January 28, 2021 [10 favorites]
I would say the lack of sex is probably as much a factor as health - transitioning to and committing to a sexless relationship is a big change and a big ask for any partner. That you can live without sex and with the risk of illness and that she can't is - well it absolutely sucks, but it doesn't make either of you better/worse, just incompatible.
It would be different if you had both explicitly discussed and made commitments to be sexually available and stay with each other in illness, but it sounds like you both have huge unspoken assumptions that have now collided in reality after years of not being challenged.
I think you should change couple therapists to someone who isn't so bloody ableist and have your own therapist to process this stuff with because the decision isn't to stay together, it's how to break up in a way that isn't agonising and contributes to a new friendship if possible. And leaves you ready to be single and if you want, open to a new relationship with someone who you are compatible with on these big things.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:39 PM on January 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
It would be different if you had both explicitly discussed and made commitments to be sexually available and stay with each other in illness, but it sounds like you both have huge unspoken assumptions that have now collided in reality after years of not being challenged.
I think you should change couple therapists to someone who isn't so bloody ableist and have your own therapist to process this stuff with because the decision isn't to stay together, it's how to break up in a way that isn't agonising and contributes to a new friendship if possible. And leaves you ready to be single and if you want, open to a new relationship with someone who you are compatible with on these big things.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:39 PM on January 28, 2021 [6 favorites]
Do you have your own therapist, just for you? Because if you don't, you probably should - and it needs to be with someone who is both not ableist and good with chronic health problems.
And honestly? You've been together TWENTY YEARS and she's only there if you're healthy and things are easy and convenient for her?
No, I don't think you're being unreasonable whatsoever to have simply assumed after that freaking long a relationship, that you were both in it for the long haul.
I'm very curious, though, if she and/or your therapist would feel the same if what had happened had been a car accident, and with a couple of possible circumstances. What if you'd been in a car accident and become immediately paralyzed? Would she have just left? What if the prognosis was instead good of perfect recovery, but it was going to take a year or two for you to get back to 100%? Would she take off and be ok, let me know when you're all healed up?
And even more telling... what would she have assumed you would do if it had happened to her? What would she have expected or wanted you to do? And what would your couples therapist be saying?
I'm suspecting that this relationship - and your partner - might not have been quite as perfect all along as they seemed on the surface... and this has made the fault lines visible.
posted by stormyteal at 12:30 AM on January 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
And honestly? You've been together TWENTY YEARS and she's only there if you're healthy and things are easy and convenient for her?
No, I don't think you're being unreasonable whatsoever to have simply assumed after that freaking long a relationship, that you were both in it for the long haul.
I'm very curious, though, if she and/or your therapist would feel the same if what had happened had been a car accident, and with a couple of possible circumstances. What if you'd been in a car accident and become immediately paralyzed? Would she have just left? What if the prognosis was instead good of perfect recovery, but it was going to take a year or two for you to get back to 100%? Would she take off and be ok, let me know when you're all healed up?
And even more telling... what would she have assumed you would do if it had happened to her? What would she have expected or wanted you to do? And what would your couples therapist be saying?
I'm suspecting that this relationship - and your partner - might not have been quite as perfect all along as they seemed on the surface... and this has made the fault lines visible.
posted by stormyteal at 12:30 AM on January 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
If your girlfriend is interested in living a meaningful life and being a good person she should seriously think about whether she will be able to find those things in herself and find true happiness and fulfilment after abandoning her partner of 20 years when the going got tough.
We cannot run from the harsh side of life, illness, and death forever, and if she thinks by leaving you now she can find an easy and non-painful life... well... it will catch up with her eventually. It is so hurtful to you that she thinks this way, but she is also hurting herself, though she may not know it.
If I were you I would open myself to the profundity of vulnerability, and ask her: please stay with me. I love you, I need you, I want you.
If this turns her off and makes her run-- well, there's your answer.
At some point as members of a profoundly interconnected species who choose to have close relationships with and structure our lives around each other, we have to actually come to terms with those bonds and realise that yes, we need each other. We need to have trust and commitment, to be able to lean on one another, to face pain and suffering together. Modern approaches to relationships might be like "that's too much to ask of one person", but if so, what the fuck are we doing marrying each other or being together for decades??????????? Genuine question. Obviously it is not fair, sometimes one partner "takes" more than they can "give"- but what in life is 50/50 fair?? And what is not a meaningful life other than tapping into one's own capacity to give without necessarily "receiving" a reward or the exact same thing back? But finding one's own reward in the very giving???
I would seek the input of another therapist, perhaps one with more experience of chronic illness, disability, end-of-life, that kind of thing.
All the best to you. I can tell you are a caring, empathetic, true-hearted person. You deserve love and support and I hope you find it with your girlfriend.
(NB I am a woman and queer!)
posted by Balthamos at 4:59 AM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
We cannot run from the harsh side of life, illness, and death forever, and if she thinks by leaving you now she can find an easy and non-painful life... well... it will catch up with her eventually. It is so hurtful to you that she thinks this way, but she is also hurting herself, though she may not know it.
If I were you I would open myself to the profundity of vulnerability, and ask her: please stay with me. I love you, I need you, I want you.
If this turns her off and makes her run-- well, there's your answer.
At some point as members of a profoundly interconnected species who choose to have close relationships with and structure our lives around each other, we have to actually come to terms with those bonds and realise that yes, we need each other. We need to have trust and commitment, to be able to lean on one another, to face pain and suffering together. Modern approaches to relationships might be like "that's too much to ask of one person", but if so, what the fuck are we doing marrying each other or being together for decades??????????? Genuine question. Obviously it is not fair, sometimes one partner "takes" more than they can "give"- but what in life is 50/50 fair?? And what is not a meaningful life other than tapping into one's own capacity to give without necessarily "receiving" a reward or the exact same thing back? But finding one's own reward in the very giving???
I would seek the input of another therapist, perhaps one with more experience of chronic illness, disability, end-of-life, that kind of thing.
All the best to you. I can tell you are a caring, empathetic, true-hearted person. You deserve love and support and I hope you find it with your girlfriend.
(NB I am a woman and queer!)
posted by Balthamos at 4:59 AM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
So my now-wife and I had this conversation very early in our relationship, when the arthritis meds I was taking at the time made me a zombie and she kinda freaked out about what our life would look like long-term. And one of the things we talked about - and agreed on - was that she was not prepared to become a full-time caregiver, and if I needed that, we would plan to hire someone else to do it and build our home life/finances around that necessity. That turned out to be the reassurance she needed - she was happy to be there for me emotionally, but she knew herself well enough to know that she would end up being angry and resentful if her life revolved around taking care of me physically.
And, frankly, that is too big a thing for me to ask of a romantic partner, and I wouldn't expect it of anyone. It's shitty that our stupid horrible capitalist society basically requires it of people, because decent care is out of most folks' financial reach, and I can't swear that if it ever should come to that, that we'll be able to afford it. But we bought a house that could work with a live-in caregiver setup and that has all the necessities on a single floor, and are planning to redo the deck (which desperately needs it, being 30 years old) with an ADA-compliant wheelchair ramp. Because life happens, shit happens, and the more houses that a wide range of people can live in, the better.
So maybe talk about (possibly in therapy, possibly in therapy with a different therapist) the specifics of what she's willing to face, what she fears, where her boundaries are. Is she willing to be the sole wage earner? Is she willing to do (or pay someone to do) all the household work if/when you can't? Is she willing (or not) to do basic medical care like giving you shots or helping you on/off the toilet? Is she willing (or not) to change bedpans/diapers/etc? There are a lot of gradations of care and I honestly can't blame anyone for being reluctant to commit to all of them sight unseen.
(And all of this is kinda orthagonal to the sex question, which is something that comes up in relationships a lot and has its own set of possible solutions, but "what if we never have sex again?" is definitely a question y'all should be asking each other, again probably in therapy.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:00 AM on January 29, 2021 [30 favorites]
And, frankly, that is too big a thing for me to ask of a romantic partner, and I wouldn't expect it of anyone. It's shitty that our stupid horrible capitalist society basically requires it of people, because decent care is out of most folks' financial reach, and I can't swear that if it ever should come to that, that we'll be able to afford it. But we bought a house that could work with a live-in caregiver setup and that has all the necessities on a single floor, and are planning to redo the deck (which desperately needs it, being 30 years old) with an ADA-compliant wheelchair ramp. Because life happens, shit happens, and the more houses that a wide range of people can live in, the better.
So maybe talk about (possibly in therapy, possibly in therapy with a different therapist) the specifics of what she's willing to face, what she fears, where her boundaries are. Is she willing to be the sole wage earner? Is she willing to do (or pay someone to do) all the household work if/when you can't? Is she willing (or not) to do basic medical care like giving you shots or helping you on/off the toilet? Is she willing (or not) to change bedpans/diapers/etc? There are a lot of gradations of care and I honestly can't blame anyone for being reluctant to commit to all of them sight unseen.
(And all of this is kinda orthagonal to the sex question, which is something that comes up in relationships a lot and has its own set of possible solutions, but "what if we never have sex again?" is definitely a question y'all should be asking each other, again probably in therapy.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:00 AM on January 29, 2021 [30 favorites]
When people repeatedly tell you the same fact about themselves, take them at their word.
She has told you that she won’t be there for you when things get desperate. Believe her, and plan accordingly for your future.
Better to walk away from her (and your bullshit therapist) now, rather than have to watch her abandon you when she gets fed up. Which she has explicitly told you that she will.
My sympathies.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:01 AM on January 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
She has told you that she won’t be there for you when things get desperate. Believe her, and plan accordingly for your future.
Better to walk away from her (and your bullshit therapist) now, rather than have to watch her abandon you when she gets fed up. Which she has explicitly told you that she will.
My sympathies.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 6:01 AM on January 29, 2021 [6 favorites]
Reading between the lines, it sounds like she wants sex, you don't, you're willing to let her go outside the relationship for sex but want an ironclad commitment that she won't emotionally prioritize the other person. (It sounds like in practice, she's ok with your illness except for the sex. Which is what you're in therapy for.)
Unless she's willing to go to sex professionals, that's going to be a trainwreck. Don't.
posted by kingdead at 6:54 AM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
Unless she's willing to go to sex professionals, that's going to be a trainwreck. Don't.
posted by kingdead at 6:54 AM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
In your 20 years together, commitment conversations must have come up. What were yours and hers opinion of "in sickness and in health" back when everyone was healthy?
If she's backtracking on previous commitments she's made, that's one thing. But if neither of you committed, and now you're pushing for a declaration now that it's obvious she's the one who'll sacrifice, that seems unfair.
posted by sdrawkcaSSAb at 7:08 AM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
If she's backtracking on previous commitments she's made, that's one thing. But if neither of you committed, and now you're pushing for a declaration now that it's obvious she's the one who'll sacrifice, that seems unfair.
posted by sdrawkcaSSAb at 7:08 AM on January 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
Have you considered group therapy? You might find it helpful to talk to other people with MS, especially those in similar relationships.
posted by Beholder at 7:49 AM on January 29, 2021
posted by Beholder at 7:49 AM on January 29, 2021
I’m wondering if your partner‘s issue isn’t that she knows she’s going to leave when you get sicker, but rather that she just doesn’t know if she can handle it and doesn’t want to make a promise she’s not 100% sure she can keep. Have you had more specific conversations about the likely progress of your MS and adjustments that you’ll need to make? How did things go in other tough situations in your relationship?
Your couples therapist sounds awful, a therapist of your own is a good idea, maybe a therapist for your partner, and then a couples therapist who actually helps you communicate rather than taking sides. A community of folks with disabilities who you can relate to is also going to be helpful. And ask for help from other people close to you / tell them some of what’s happening, having your partnership being such a huge part of your identity needs to shift a bit and you need a community. None of these things are easy! Be gentle with yourself and just do one step at a time.
posted by momus_window at 8:11 AM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Your couples therapist sounds awful, a therapist of your own is a good idea, maybe a therapist for your partner, and then a couples therapist who actually helps you communicate rather than taking sides. A community of folks with disabilities who you can relate to is also going to be helpful. And ask for help from other people close to you / tell them some of what’s happening, having your partnership being such a huge part of your identity needs to shift a bit and you need a community. None of these things are easy! Be gentle with yourself and just do one step at a time.
posted by momus_window at 8:11 AM on January 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
queer cis woman with what will be (and has in the past) debilitating illness.
dude. 20 years and she doesn't want to be committed? what is that even about? how can you be with someone for 20 years and not want to fully commit to them emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.? if my partner had not supported me during my previous health stuff, we would not be together any more.
for a lot of people "sickness" is an abstract future thought that might not happen so they don't worry about the "what ifs" too much. however, you KNOW you are sick and your partner knows you are sick and she has now told you she's not in it if things get hard. you know things will get hard at some point and you know your partner won't be there for you. that's shitty and sucks.
i would end things so she can find the casual relationship she wants, and you can find someone who will be there for you, be it friend or partner or lover etc.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 8:33 AM on January 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
dude. 20 years and she doesn't want to be committed? what is that even about? how can you be with someone for 20 years and not want to fully commit to them emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.? if my partner had not supported me during my previous health stuff, we would not be together any more.
for a lot of people "sickness" is an abstract future thought that might not happen so they don't worry about the "what ifs" too much. however, you KNOW you are sick and your partner knows you are sick and she has now told you she's not in it if things get hard. you know things will get hard at some point and you know your partner won't be there for you. that's shitty and sucks.
i would end things so she can find the casual relationship she wants, and you can find someone who will be there for you, be it friend or partner or lover etc.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 8:33 AM on January 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm a woman about your age. And unattached. So in many ways, I'm the flipside of your coin.
I have end stage kidney disease, which is long-term, progressive, and incurable, and requires lots of serious medical intervention. It's an all-too-common cliche that with ESRD patients, the husbands leave but the wives stay. I suspect this cliche is less about gender roles than it is about traditional balances for emotional labor/division of labor, but it's a cliche because it happens all the time.
My initial response when I read your question last night was that your partner sucks and you need to pack your stuff and go. But I woke up thinking more about your question. And when it comes down to it, I think it depends on the strength of your support structure and your particular hierarchy of needs. For me, my illness-related needs are:
1. I need to have a good, responsive medical team who I trust, so I'm not constantly overly worried or feeling left in the dark about changes or progressions or treatments or medications
2. I need to have a trusted close friend or family member to help me talk through personal medical decisions
3. I need to have reliable help with practical things, like support after surgery, running errands, etc.
4. I need to nurture kind, supportive, grounded two-way friendships and maintain a healthy social balance
5. I need deep emotional support to help me get through the isolation and uncertainty of long-term illness
My primary support through this is a wonderful family member who is absolutely amazing with 2, 3, and 4, but who genuinely struggles when we veer too far into 5. My doctors and other medical providers do 1. My friends do a mix of 3 and 4, sometimes parts of 2, and the edges of 5. My dog gives me something to nurture and helps keep the house from feeling too quiet, which helps me with 4 and keeping 5 from tendrilling out of control. Over the years, I've been learning which parts of 5 I can handle on my own vs. what needs more help, and the balance of how I'm doing with 5 almost depends on how well 1-4 are going.
No one would expect a romantic partner to do 1. And I don't know that someone's partner should or even could take care of 100% of 2, 3, 4, *and* 5 across the long term. If I had a partner, I would want parts of 2, 3, 4, and 5. But parts of 2, 3, and 4 might be nice.
I have a friend whose husband of 20 years simply shut down when she had to have emergency surgery -- she'd been strong and healthy all her life, and this sudden emergency made him face head on all sorts of complicated thoughts he'd never had to consider: the fear of losing her, the fear of growing older, the fear of dying. It was a reckoning. They compromised by working through what they could, and she built out her supports to help cover the rest, and for them, it's enough.
What are your needs and priorities? What are her needs? What are her concerns? Is she acting out of fear? Indifference? Cruelty? Is she feeling that the relationship has lost or will lose its balance? (I'm finding lots of people assume that chronic illness is like living in a Lifetime movie, and it's not like that at all.) I echo the others who are urging you to ditch this awful therapist and find one who can help guide you through those questions, help you both define your needs, and help you both determine if there's a future there. And if not, it's OK to redefine your relationship, even to the point of redefining it as being apart.
posted by mochapickle at 10:07 AM on January 29, 2021 [17 favorites]
I have end stage kidney disease, which is long-term, progressive, and incurable, and requires lots of serious medical intervention. It's an all-too-common cliche that with ESRD patients, the husbands leave but the wives stay. I suspect this cliche is less about gender roles than it is about traditional balances for emotional labor/division of labor, but it's a cliche because it happens all the time.
My initial response when I read your question last night was that your partner sucks and you need to pack your stuff and go. But I woke up thinking more about your question. And when it comes down to it, I think it depends on the strength of your support structure and your particular hierarchy of needs. For me, my illness-related needs are:
1. I need to have a good, responsive medical team who I trust, so I'm not constantly overly worried or feeling left in the dark about changes or progressions or treatments or medications
2. I need to have a trusted close friend or family member to help me talk through personal medical decisions
3. I need to have reliable help with practical things, like support after surgery, running errands, etc.
4. I need to nurture kind, supportive, grounded two-way friendships and maintain a healthy social balance
5. I need deep emotional support to help me get through the isolation and uncertainty of long-term illness
My primary support through this is a wonderful family member who is absolutely amazing with 2, 3, and 4, but who genuinely struggles when we veer too far into 5. My doctors and other medical providers do 1. My friends do a mix of 3 and 4, sometimes parts of 2, and the edges of 5. My dog gives me something to nurture and helps keep the house from feeling too quiet, which helps me with 4 and keeping 5 from tendrilling out of control. Over the years, I've been learning which parts of 5 I can handle on my own vs. what needs more help, and the balance of how I'm doing with 5 almost depends on how well 1-4 are going.
No one would expect a romantic partner to do 1. And I don't know that someone's partner should or even could take care of 100% of 2, 3, 4, *and* 5 across the long term. If I had a partner, I would want parts of 2, 3, 4, and 5. But parts of 2, 3, and 4 might be nice.
I have a friend whose husband of 20 years simply shut down when she had to have emergency surgery -- she'd been strong and healthy all her life, and this sudden emergency made him face head on all sorts of complicated thoughts he'd never had to consider: the fear of losing her, the fear of growing older, the fear of dying. It was a reckoning. They compromised by working through what they could, and she built out her supports to help cover the rest, and for them, it's enough.
What are your needs and priorities? What are her needs? What are her concerns? Is she acting out of fear? Indifference? Cruelty? Is she feeling that the relationship has lost or will lose its balance? (I'm finding lots of people assume that chronic illness is like living in a Lifetime movie, and it's not like that at all.) I echo the others who are urging you to ditch this awful therapist and find one who can help guide you through those questions, help you both define your needs, and help you both determine if there's a future there. And if not, it's OK to redefine your relationship, even to the point of redefining it as being apart.
posted by mochapickle at 10:07 AM on January 29, 2021 [17 favorites]
There is nothing wrong with needing an explicit commitment from your partner that she intends to stay with you. There would be nothing wrong with needing that even if you could guarantee you'd live a long, healthy and high-functioning life until you peacefully drifted off to the other side, wherever that may be, in your sleep at 100...which, for the record, no one can do.
I realized a while back that I would never feel safe and secure in a relationship with a partner who would not make their it clear that they intended to stay with me through thick and thin. I know there are no guarantees no matter how many times someone says it or even if we signed legal documents about it, but I need to know they want that and they will be doing everything within their control to make it happen. I am able-bodied today, and I still need it. I don't really see that as a moral thing - it's just what I need. If you need it too, it's ok. Honor what you need.
posted by amycup at 6:22 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I realized a while back that I would never feel safe and secure in a relationship with a partner who would not make their it clear that they intended to stay with me through thick and thin. I know there are no guarantees no matter how many times someone says it or even if we signed legal documents about it, but I need to know they want that and they will be doing everything within their control to make it happen. I am able-bodied today, and I still need it. I don't really see that as a moral thing - it's just what I need. If you need it too, it's ok. Honor what you need.
posted by amycup at 6:22 PM on January 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I can't imagine abandoning my partner if they were to become disabled. And I agree that your therapist is awful. Ableist and possibly reacting out of homophobia too--like a lesbian relationship isn't the equivalent of a hetero one, so you shouldn't expect the same level of commitment. I would dump them both.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 7:33 PM on January 30, 2021
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 7:33 PM on January 30, 2021
On a related note, the play I saw tonight (about Robert Lowell and Elizabeth Hardwick) had the following quote, about Lowell's third wife leaving him when he went manic:
"What kind of love is it when you can't be sick?"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:02 PM on January 30, 2021
"What kind of love is it when you can't be sick?"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:02 PM on January 30, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Allow yourself to imagine that the other side of this relationship is a garden of wonder and joy. A break-up is hard. Staying in a relationship that is fundamentally broken is much harder.
Good luck. I’ll be thinking of you.
posted by kate blank at 2:58 PM on January 28, 2021 [40 favorites]