How not to be taken for a ride by management?
January 18, 2021 1:55 PM Subscribe
I feel I was subtly tricked by my boss. This could be due to my lack of experience, and perhaps I'm not even evaluating the situation correctly. Nevertheless, I think that during my career I surely will encounter other attempts either by him or by other managers. I'd like to avoid those. Short story and my evaluation below the fold.
I started at my current job little more than two years ago. I found my place fast, enjoyed the work and got the feedback that everyone is satisfied my work. A couple of months after I started, my boss approached me asking about my plans for the future. I was honest and said, that I'd like to move into managament from an individual contributor. He immediately jumped on this, saying that he is happy with this plan. He told me that he is nearing retirement age, and he has to think about a successor. Then he went on and evaluated the team in terms of leadership skills and excluded everyone, implying that I should go for this career path. I was happy for my luck.
On our next meeting after this, we discussed this career path in very generic terms, but when I asked about how to handle it in the future he said that we shouldn't write it down as a formal career goal in the internal HR tool, cause it'd complicate things with his boss.
Still, I was happy. Over time, my boss made allusions that I'm on track, that I show management capabilities and so on and so on, but nothing specific.
Fast forward two years. We have tons of work, pressing deadlines and this is the time when the company introduces trainings for people who aspire to become managers. They are free, they only take time. So after I realized that it was already two years since I first heard about the management path, I went and asked my boss directly about timelines for this whole career thing. Like, is it something that I should expect in the near future, so should I prepare for it by taking this course or not? Because if so, then I may need to offload some work in order to focus on the trainings.
And here is when the mood changes. He says (over zoom, of course, because covid) that there is nothing specific that I should consider with respect to my career. He says that I shouldn't think that I have a guaranteed promise or anything. When he retires, it'll be the most competent, we gets the job. He may or may not retire in 4 years (at the official limit). I should attend to trainings of course, when I feel the internal urge. But obviously, I should do it on my own time, we have a ton of work. We then chat about the current work, I defuse the situation but have a bad taste in my mouth.
Ok, so here's what I think about this.
- The job pays a medium rate compared to other companies in the sector. Not the worst but not the best either. We both know this.
- But because soon after joining, I got this vague non-promise, I felt at ease and didn't ask for a raise or didn't start looking around for a better deal
- So, this move - either intentional or accidental - was perfect to keep me in my place. Due to my relative inexperience (or even naivite) I sat happily, waiting for the good things materialize on their own.
- I consider this a (costly) learning experience, and cut my losses. I can't do anything with the two years already passed, but will go and try to improve my situation (either here or by finidng another job) and not wait on promises. Interestingly, I don't even feel that much angry, or frustrated. I really did learn something and hopefully won't repeat this mistake.
- Moreover, how stupid I was?! If I'm interested in the position after he retires, I should talk about this with his boss, or whoever makes this decision later on, not him! He won't carry much weight after he retires (for obvious reasons) and his superiors may want to use this opportunity to push their people in position. Now I learned this too!
So, two questions: reading this, is there anything I should consider about this current situation? Am I in seriously in the wrong with my analysis above? What can you suggest in this situation?
On a related, but longer term note: can you please share your similar stories/learnings with management? What are the typical moves by which management manipulates labor? How did you cope with it, what did you do? What are the red flags to look out for on my hopefully long career?
I started at my current job little more than two years ago. I found my place fast, enjoyed the work and got the feedback that everyone is satisfied my work. A couple of months after I started, my boss approached me asking about my plans for the future. I was honest and said, that I'd like to move into managament from an individual contributor. He immediately jumped on this, saying that he is happy with this plan. He told me that he is nearing retirement age, and he has to think about a successor. Then he went on and evaluated the team in terms of leadership skills and excluded everyone, implying that I should go for this career path. I was happy for my luck.
On our next meeting after this, we discussed this career path in very generic terms, but when I asked about how to handle it in the future he said that we shouldn't write it down as a formal career goal in the internal HR tool, cause it'd complicate things with his boss.
Still, I was happy. Over time, my boss made allusions that I'm on track, that I show management capabilities and so on and so on, but nothing specific.
Fast forward two years. We have tons of work, pressing deadlines and this is the time when the company introduces trainings for people who aspire to become managers. They are free, they only take time. So after I realized that it was already two years since I first heard about the management path, I went and asked my boss directly about timelines for this whole career thing. Like, is it something that I should expect in the near future, so should I prepare for it by taking this course or not? Because if so, then I may need to offload some work in order to focus on the trainings.
And here is when the mood changes. He says (over zoom, of course, because covid) that there is nothing specific that I should consider with respect to my career. He says that I shouldn't think that I have a guaranteed promise or anything. When he retires, it'll be the most competent, we gets the job. He may or may not retire in 4 years (at the official limit). I should attend to trainings of course, when I feel the internal urge. But obviously, I should do it on my own time, we have a ton of work. We then chat about the current work, I defuse the situation but have a bad taste in my mouth.
Ok, so here's what I think about this.
- The job pays a medium rate compared to other companies in the sector. Not the worst but not the best either. We both know this.
- But because soon after joining, I got this vague non-promise, I felt at ease and didn't ask for a raise or didn't start looking around for a better deal
- So, this move - either intentional or accidental - was perfect to keep me in my place. Due to my relative inexperience (or even naivite) I sat happily, waiting for the good things materialize on their own.
- I consider this a (costly) learning experience, and cut my losses. I can't do anything with the two years already passed, but will go and try to improve my situation (either here or by finidng another job) and not wait on promises. Interestingly, I don't even feel that much angry, or frustrated. I really did learn something and hopefully won't repeat this mistake.
- Moreover, how stupid I was?! If I'm interested in the position after he retires, I should talk about this with his boss, or whoever makes this decision later on, not him! He won't carry much weight after he retires (for obvious reasons) and his superiors may want to use this opportunity to push their people in position. Now I learned this too!
So, two questions: reading this, is there anything I should consider about this current situation? Am I in seriously in the wrong with my analysis above? What can you suggest in this situation?
On a related, but longer term note: can you please share your similar stories/learnings with management? What are the typical moves by which management manipulates labor? How did you cope with it, what did you do? What are the red flags to look out for on my hopefully long career?
Moreover, how stupid I was?! If I'm interested in the position after he retires, I should talk about this with his boss, or whoever makes this decision later on, not him! He won't carry much weight
I don't think this is always wrong. If the boss's boss is generally happy with the way things are going, then the outgoing manager's opinion can hold huge sway. Who knows and how you can find out is different in every organization!
What you went through is what future you calls "experience". No one path works in all environments and times. Socializing and fun might get you promoted in one place but another promotes those with the most billable hours. Most I think we can offer is to read a Dale Carnegie book and some Dilbert cartoons. And the Gervais Principle of course.
posted by flimflam at 2:31 PM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
I don't think this is always wrong. If the boss's boss is generally happy with the way things are going, then the outgoing manager's opinion can hold huge sway. Who knows and how you can find out is different in every organization!
What you went through is what future you calls "experience". No one path works in all environments and times. Socializing and fun might get you promoted in one place but another promotes those with the most billable hours. Most I think we can offer is to read a Dale Carnegie book and some Dilbert cartoons. And the Gervais Principle of course.
posted by flimflam at 2:31 PM on January 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Then he went on and evaluated the team in terms of leadership skills and excluded everyone, implying that I should go for this career path.
This part was a sleazy and inappropriate move by your boss. Aside from this one bit, though, I think you probably just read too much into what your boss previously said, which sounded to me like general encouragement to do well and aim high. Sitting happily and waiting for good things to materialize on their own may have been the opposite of what your boss was trying to inspire you to do.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:53 PM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
This part was a sleazy and inappropriate move by your boss. Aside from this one bit, though, I think you probably just read too much into what your boss previously said, which sounded to me like general encouragement to do well and aim high. Sitting happily and waiting for good things to materialize on their own may have been the opposite of what your boss was trying to inspire you to do.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:53 PM on January 18, 2021 [17 favorites]
It doesn’t sound like anything really went wrong here, unless there are important details left out. Your boss was probably glad you had some actionable goals and a vision as that makes his job (helping you find your direction in the org) easier. He can’t promise you a promotion, and he might have felt too much like you were assuming it would happen, so he pulled back to reset your expectations and let you know that it’s not a sure thing. Seems responsible of him. You should continue to work toward that goal, whether on your current team or outside of it.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:57 PM on January 18, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 2:57 PM on January 18, 2021 [24 favorites]
so should I prepare for it by taking this course or not? Because if so, then I may need to offload some work in order to focus on the trainings.
Is that normal in your line of work? Or is it possible that the expectation would be that you'd just need to do the training on top of your normal workload?
It's also a bit delicate to badger someone about a firm timeline of when they will retire. Lots of people have taken a financial hit during COVID–for all you know, your bosses's spouse lost their job, or maybe he's unexpectedly be called on to help out a family member, etc. So you asking a question about his retirement plans may not be the neutral question you seem to think it is.
I also agree those suggesting you likely read too much into his suggestion that you could be his successor. It sounds more like he was encouraging you to imagine that as a potential future, contingent on your continued progress, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 3:37 PM on January 18, 2021 [15 favorites]
Is that normal in your line of work? Or is it possible that the expectation would be that you'd just need to do the training on top of your normal workload?
It's also a bit delicate to badger someone about a firm timeline of when they will retire. Lots of people have taken a financial hit during COVID–for all you know, your bosses's spouse lost their job, or maybe he's unexpectedly be called on to help out a family member, etc. So you asking a question about his retirement plans may not be the neutral question you seem to think it is.
I also agree those suggesting you likely read too much into his suggestion that you could be his successor. It sounds more like he was encouraging you to imagine that as a potential future, contingent on your continued progress, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 3:37 PM on January 18, 2021 [15 favorites]
All of this sounds pretty typical and I don't think your boss was malicious or that you were a fool, just read too much into a situation.
Your boss indicated that when he retires, he thinks you'd be a logical replacement and spent a little effort mentoring you on the path. He didn't give you a specific timeline nor do you typically get one in these situations, especially with Covid disrupting things. What he told you recently sounds like he's not planning on leaving for 4 years and that if you want to advance sooner than that you'd need to look elsewhere.
Due to my relative inexperience (or even naivite) I sat happily, waiting for the good things materialize on their own.
You always have to be advocating for yourself. Verbal promises of future consideration are worth the paper they're printed on.
Because if so, then I may need to offload some work in order to focus on the trainings.
Unless your boss specifically suggests and authorizes this, giving your work to coworkers "because I need to take training to become your boss" is a really good way to breed bad relationships with your theoretical eventual reports.
posted by Candleman at 4:09 PM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Your boss indicated that when he retires, he thinks you'd be a logical replacement and spent a little effort mentoring you on the path. He didn't give you a specific timeline nor do you typically get one in these situations, especially with Covid disrupting things. What he told you recently sounds like he's not planning on leaving for 4 years and that if you want to advance sooner than that you'd need to look elsewhere.
Due to my relative inexperience (or even naivite) I sat happily, waiting for the good things materialize on their own.
You always have to be advocating for yourself. Verbal promises of future consideration are worth the paper they're printed on.
Because if so, then I may need to offload some work in order to focus on the trainings.
Unless your boss specifically suggests and authorizes this, giving your work to coworkers "because I need to take training to become your boss" is a really good way to breed bad relationships with your theoretical eventual reports.
posted by Candleman at 4:09 PM on January 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
I’m another one not really seeing what’s very wrong with this scenario except that you maybe took an eventual promotion a little too much for granted; and that if he’d hinted you had a strong future, resting on your laurels was probably the opposite of what you should have done. I think your main lesson is not to put too much store in conversations like the one you had with your boss as literal career plans. They’re a useful guide, but any one individual mentor or manager can leave or be replaced unexpectedly or hire someone better than you to the team. Over two years a lot of things can change and goalposts can move.
And yeah, asking someone a question which - even if very indirectly - might be interpreted as “When are you going to get out of the way so I can have your job like you promised me?” is probably bound to put them on the defensive.
posted by penguin pie at 4:21 PM on January 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
And yeah, asking someone a question which - even if very indirectly - might be interpreted as “When are you going to get out of the way so I can have your job like you promised me?” is probably bound to put them on the defensive.
posted by penguin pie at 4:21 PM on January 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
I made a handy flow chart to see if management is trying to take advantage of you:
Did you interact with management?
Yes: They were definitely trying to take advantage of you.
No: They were probably trying to take advantage of you.
As far as what management has told you, they haven’t told you anything unless it’s in writing with detailed specifics, and even then it’s questionable.
Good lesson to learn while you’re young.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:34 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Did you interact with management?
Yes: They were definitely trying to take advantage of you.
No: They were probably trying to take advantage of you.
As far as what management has told you, they haven’t told you anything unless it’s in writing with detailed specifics, and even then it’s questionable.
Good lesson to learn while you’re young.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:34 PM on January 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's rare for a company in the US to even be able to guarantee a promotion into a new role in 5-6 years--the role might not even exist! Conversely, if you are doing well something may come up sooner. These conversations are always aspirational and with an "if everything works out that way." With someone early in their career your boss could have made sure you were clearer on this but there's no reason to think this was dishonest. It's something "everyone" knows (unless they don't) so it often stays unsaid.
With this perspective the "mood shift" you experienced is likely them realizing you didn't know it and having an oh-shit moment. I would react that way if faced with an employee who thought this; it's bad that we miscommunicated and demotivating to clear this up but I can't have you thinking that.
I'll be really blunt: You say you've learned things but I'm not sure you learned the right things yet. You probably weren't manipulated. Your mistake probably wasn't costly. Going over your boss's head to talk about replacing them because they might retire in 4(!) years is rarely appropriate. Working hard for two years and learning things is a good start to any career--and if you weren't working hard and learning, because you thought you had this locked up, that's on you.
Also, some thing are employer and industry dependent but: We give annual raises but someone with <2 years asking for an extra raise is generally useless. Someone ambitious and heading to management training would be expected to be able to manage their duties on their own to make it work (beyond "covering" for them while they're actually in the course.)
posted by mark k at 10:19 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
With this perspective the "mood shift" you experienced is likely them realizing you didn't know it and having an oh-shit moment. I would react that way if faced with an employee who thought this; it's bad that we miscommunicated and demotivating to clear this up but I can't have you thinking that.
I'll be really blunt: You say you've learned things but I'm not sure you learned the right things yet. You probably weren't manipulated. Your mistake probably wasn't costly. Going over your boss's head to talk about replacing them because they might retire in 4(!) years is rarely appropriate. Working hard for two years and learning things is a good start to any career--and if you weren't working hard and learning, because you thought you had this locked up, that's on you.
Also, some thing are employer and industry dependent but: We give annual raises but someone with <2 years asking for an extra raise is generally useless. Someone ambitious and heading to management training would be expected to be able to manage their duties on their own to make it work (beyond "covering" for them while they're actually in the course.)
posted by mark k at 10:19 AM on January 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
Two or three years is perfect for a career hop to bigger and better opportunities.
With that said, we weren't listening in when you talked with your boss, so we can't read his tone or his body language. We can only guess based on your interpretation of it, and your feeling overall was "betrayal". You thought you were on your way on a management track, but your boss basically said take it on your own time, but department comes first.
I am a bit ambivalent about this one. I don't believe he's dashing your hopes for management, esp. if everybody is putting in OT and you want some slack so you can do manager training it *does* sound a little selfish. On the other hand, I think he could have handled it better by reframing your request as "you're letting the team down, and the department's priorities are more important than your personal ambition".
Whether that works on you or not is a different story.
posted by kschang at 10:22 AM on January 19, 2021
With that said, we weren't listening in when you talked with your boss, so we can't read his tone or his body language. We can only guess based on your interpretation of it, and your feeling overall was "betrayal". You thought you were on your way on a management track, but your boss basically said take it on your own time, but department comes first.
I am a bit ambivalent about this one. I don't believe he's dashing your hopes for management, esp. if everybody is putting in OT and you want some slack so you can do manager training it *does* sound a little selfish. On the other hand, I think he could have handled it better by reframing your request as "you're letting the team down, and the department's priorities are more important than your personal ambition".
Whether that works on you or not is a different story.
posted by kschang at 10:22 AM on January 19, 2021
I would recommend handling this the same way I would've recommended handling this if you were interested in promotion but none of the rest of this had happened: Meet with your boss, ask for his assessment of your work, and then -- if what criticism he offers is reasonable, limited (as opposed to a larger number of things he says you're not doing well), and not any kind of shock to you because it's non-trivial but has never been communicated before -- I'd move the conversation on to I'd like to be in management myself someday. What are some things I can do to better position myself to be good at it? How can I learn more about other groups in the company, so that I can better understand how they fit together and support each other? What might surprise me about your typical day? Stuff like that.
From what you've written, you seem very focused on getting the shot to be a manager. I would stop looking at it from that angle, and certainly stop sharing my thoughts to that end, if you've done so any further than you've described here, and would start focusing on positioning myself to be a good manager if I got the shot, and on giving off that aura. Better to come off as interested in learning more and becoming more competent in more areas than to come off as thirsty.
posted by troywestfield at 10:58 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
From what you've written, you seem very focused on getting the shot to be a manager. I would stop looking at it from that angle, and certainly stop sharing my thoughts to that end, if you've done so any further than you've described here, and would start focusing on positioning myself to be a good manager if I got the shot, and on giving off that aura. Better to come off as interested in learning more and becoming more competent in more areas than to come off as thirsty.
posted by troywestfield at 10:58 AM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think you took something very literally that wasn't intended to be. Good things do not materialize on their own. lt is unclear whether you were developing any advanced and/or managerial skills during that period but given your self-description of being naïve and inexperienced I am questioning whether you might have been trying to fast track a promotion in ways that are in odds with your org culture.
I do think it was not appropriate for your boss to rank/exclude others to you especially when you were basically brand new. It probably made you feel good that he was confiding in you and seemingly ranking you above others, but this is also a sign of bad management.
However, I think viewing this through the lens of being manipulated or taken advantage of is only going to hurt you going forward. What your manager is telling you is that you aren't guaranteed to be his replacement but he is not actually dismissing you as a candidate. I think you may need to disentangle your emotions of disappointment more thoroughly from this one.
posted by sm1tten at 5:33 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
I do think it was not appropriate for your boss to rank/exclude others to you especially when you were basically brand new. It probably made you feel good that he was confiding in you and seemingly ranking you above others, but this is also a sign of bad management.
However, I think viewing this through the lens of being manipulated or taken advantage of is only going to hurt you going forward. What your manager is telling you is that you aren't guaranteed to be his replacement but he is not actually dismissing you as a candidate. I think you may need to disentangle your emotions of disappointment more thoroughly from this one.
posted by sm1tten at 5:33 PM on January 19, 2021 [1 favorite]
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In many ways how exactly you should navigate a particular organisation is very culture specific. In your position I would probably try to have some conversations with someone more senior than me but not directly above me who might have some insight either into the skills that I would need to be promoted, or into how promotion works in your organisation. More junior people have approached me for help in this way and I have done my best by them, and suggested resources that I thought they might find helpful.
posted by plonkee at 2:30 PM on January 18, 2021 [4 favorites]