What's it like working for a "big four" mid in your career?
January 10, 2021 4:50 PM Subscribe
What should I expect as an experienced software engineer/lead going into a "big 4 agency" who has only worked with creative agencies and developed technical client strategies that weren't necessarily heavy IT operational space. They were either custom development or those fun lets do a VR tech demo for an opening of a big client shop? I was engineering lead, developed solutions and generally saw projects to success with the client while maintaining a development background. I had a lot of an autonomy, writing scopes, picking projects deciding a lot of large leadership decisions. Will this translate to the big four? Or how do I adjust?
I'm used to building cross-functional teams, developing deep relationships with clients and developing solutions. Probably my biggest weakness is hatred of marketing buzzwords and tendency to use technical computer science or plain language terms to describe what needs to be done, such as "schedule a social media campaign, tie it to an ad and lets see engagement values to up, or lets do something a/b testing on this..." Usually due to the nature of my engagements recommending products was done early on so if we needed a better analytics platform it'd be easier and better for the organization to recommend an analytics firm and work closely with that firm. But I was able to identify gaps and solutions, just perhaps not know the ins-and-outs of technologies.
Also my approach has always been to just do it with the dev team I had within reason. I think I sad an earlier approach setting up a bash script on a cron job just worked and being in marketing side of things no one cared about EOL or change management or formal requirements. So my thought has always been to go in that direction and not take a traditional "IT approach." Plus we'd look at some solutions and instead of buying a giant platform, find the exact feature needed and replicate custom it when possible. Yes, I'm aware of EOL, change management, setting up health monitoring but large (very large firms we worked with) actually hired us in certain respects to get it done fast and get it around IT. Not avoiding basic coding hygiene or cowboy coding, but to get rid around month long discussions and IT in-fighting to get things speed to market.
In any case I've been hired by a "big four" and I think it is a good fit and along the lines of what I've been doing: listening to the client's problems, understanding the real issue, decide if it is technical or otherwise, then move into recommendation and solution. They (consultancy) sought me out and to be honest I wanted to advance my career where I feel I plateaued.
I realized through the interviews they're not dev shops implementing large solutions, these are strictly SI/IT implementations. I also got the feeling they perhaps wanted someone who could implement some projects as an engineer installing someone else's proprietary software and then configure it, where it isn't where I'd want to be. I made this known beforehand and during the interviews, but I'm beginning to feel there's maybe "consulting speak" I'm missing. The projects aren't "do something cool with Oculus" or "pilot a new technology in a store" but "implement O365." I made my career goals of not being above development (I love development), but leading a Salesforce implementation isn't something I'd be interested in. Developing a strategy that might lead to recommending Salesforce is, or developing a bespoke solution or even growing a department would be, but I feel as if I've worked on linters and compilers in the recent past I would simply get bored. I did express in the interview and the general line is they wanted to feel where I'd fit in and I might be doing things like that until a role was available.
I also felt they questioned by consulting experience. Again, I have no big four consulting experience but the creative agencies I worked with were huge, not 12 person web dev shops. They ran large programs for large clients. So it might not be traditional management consultant, but as far as the general framework of workshops, listening to client needs, working with cross-functional teams I felt I could transfer like a baseball player from center to left field with some guidance, but I could be wrong.
I do have a good feeling about the people, the organization and them seeking me out. Can someone describe their experiences and what I'd expect? Any advice going in with the idea of advancing my career (obviously not on day one) would be helpful. I'd hate to be hired as someone who can execute implementations really well and then just get stuck in that role, I feel way beyond that in my career.
I also felt a general snobbery around the firm, but I'm told management consulting is like that. But that's something I can deal with, found it odd some big name clients with big initiatives weren't even questioned. They felt their was oddness to my resume but that could be the path I took with creative agencies which open new offices, change names, etc.
I've asked quite a few friends who worked in the industry out of college and it ran the gamut of being "you find the problem, identify the solution and then get it done ... don't overthink it," to "management consulting was the world place to be in the world." Unless I get some really negative responses here I believe I'll take it, but I'm looking at tips.
A lot of sites like Vault and the like are geared towards entry level consultants with type-A backgrounds. I'm comfortable where I am and my knowledge. Perhaps the snobbery, which I can deal with, is turning me off that I might be seen as a resource to get some obscure Oracle application running and that's it.
Since I'm in mid-level to upper-level in my career and we haven't got to title/compensation yet (that is later this week), are there red flags here? Those working there what went well for you? Again this is on the IT side where someone would recommend a higher "organizational strategy" and then we'd come in and recommend the products and implement them to achieve that. if this were a typical dev shop I'd know what questions to ask and generally get a feel for how they ran their business. I was hoping someone with perhaps a similar background or working in the industry can provide some advice. I'm willing to definitely give this a shot I'm just finding nothing online. I also don't want to be pushed into the low level "we've done the strategy, identified the product now let us pay this overpriced dev to get it done and that's what he's there for."
Beyond general advice and how to set myself up for success and impress-but-not-too-hard on day one ... any questions I can ask the recruiter before I give a yes? I do have a meeting with the MD so there's a chance to ask some further questions. Specific career path questions have been broad and "organizational is changing but you can be here or here." Warning signs or simply they want to find out where I fit or simply most organizations now really don't have career paths except on paper?
Again, big industry jump for me and the literature is so geared towards top-of-the-class first year types I don't think it is really applicable. I'm finding "creative agency client services" which do provide consulting to a large degree do not speak the same language as a true management consultant firm so I feel like instead of a seasoned professional used to a leadership position I'm kind of lost.
(Also a lot o weirdness or things that through me off probably had a lot to do with on-site Covid related vague answers, as if they didn't know if their clients maybe even would want or need on-site so I'm chalking some of that up to that ... such as walk me through a typical engagement would be "Well before a year ago ..." to "And now we do it this way ... but it should go back")
I'm used to building cross-functional teams, developing deep relationships with clients and developing solutions. Probably my biggest weakness is hatred of marketing buzzwords and tendency to use technical computer science or plain language terms to describe what needs to be done, such as "schedule a social media campaign, tie it to an ad and lets see engagement values to up, or lets do something a/b testing on this..." Usually due to the nature of my engagements recommending products was done early on so if we needed a better analytics platform it'd be easier and better for the organization to recommend an analytics firm and work closely with that firm. But I was able to identify gaps and solutions, just perhaps not know the ins-and-outs of technologies.
Also my approach has always been to just do it with the dev team I had within reason. I think I sad an earlier approach setting up a bash script on a cron job just worked and being in marketing side of things no one cared about EOL or change management or formal requirements. So my thought has always been to go in that direction and not take a traditional "IT approach." Plus we'd look at some solutions and instead of buying a giant platform, find the exact feature needed and replicate custom it when possible. Yes, I'm aware of EOL, change management, setting up health monitoring but large (very large firms we worked with) actually hired us in certain respects to get it done fast and get it around IT. Not avoiding basic coding hygiene or cowboy coding, but to get rid around month long discussions and IT in-fighting to get things speed to market.
In any case I've been hired by a "big four" and I think it is a good fit and along the lines of what I've been doing: listening to the client's problems, understanding the real issue, decide if it is technical or otherwise, then move into recommendation and solution. They (consultancy) sought me out and to be honest I wanted to advance my career where I feel I plateaued.
I realized through the interviews they're not dev shops implementing large solutions, these are strictly SI/IT implementations. I also got the feeling they perhaps wanted someone who could implement some projects as an engineer installing someone else's proprietary software and then configure it, where it isn't where I'd want to be. I made this known beforehand and during the interviews, but I'm beginning to feel there's maybe "consulting speak" I'm missing. The projects aren't "do something cool with Oculus" or "pilot a new technology in a store" but "implement O365." I made my career goals of not being above development (I love development), but leading a Salesforce implementation isn't something I'd be interested in. Developing a strategy that might lead to recommending Salesforce is, or developing a bespoke solution or even growing a department would be, but I feel as if I've worked on linters and compilers in the recent past I would simply get bored. I did express in the interview and the general line is they wanted to feel where I'd fit in and I might be doing things like that until a role was available.
I also felt they questioned by consulting experience. Again, I have no big four consulting experience but the creative agencies I worked with were huge, not 12 person web dev shops. They ran large programs for large clients. So it might not be traditional management consultant, but as far as the general framework of workshops, listening to client needs, working with cross-functional teams I felt I could transfer like a baseball player from center to left field with some guidance, but I could be wrong.
I do have a good feeling about the people, the organization and them seeking me out. Can someone describe their experiences and what I'd expect? Any advice going in with the idea of advancing my career (obviously not on day one) would be helpful. I'd hate to be hired as someone who can execute implementations really well and then just get stuck in that role, I feel way beyond that in my career.
I also felt a general snobbery around the firm, but I'm told management consulting is like that. But that's something I can deal with, found it odd some big name clients with big initiatives weren't even questioned. They felt their was oddness to my resume but that could be the path I took with creative agencies which open new offices, change names, etc.
I've asked quite a few friends who worked in the industry out of college and it ran the gamut of being "you find the problem, identify the solution and then get it done ... don't overthink it," to "management consulting was the world place to be in the world." Unless I get some really negative responses here I believe I'll take it, but I'm looking at tips.
A lot of sites like Vault and the like are geared towards entry level consultants with type-A backgrounds. I'm comfortable where I am and my knowledge. Perhaps the snobbery, which I can deal with, is turning me off that I might be seen as a resource to get some obscure Oracle application running and that's it.
Since I'm in mid-level to upper-level in my career and we haven't got to title/compensation yet (that is later this week), are there red flags here? Those working there what went well for you? Again this is on the IT side where someone would recommend a higher "organizational strategy" and then we'd come in and recommend the products and implement them to achieve that. if this were a typical dev shop I'd know what questions to ask and generally get a feel for how they ran their business. I was hoping someone with perhaps a similar background or working in the industry can provide some advice. I'm willing to definitely give this a shot I'm just finding nothing online. I also don't want to be pushed into the low level "we've done the strategy, identified the product now let us pay this overpriced dev to get it done and that's what he's there for."
Beyond general advice and how to set myself up for success and impress-but-not-too-hard on day one ... any questions I can ask the recruiter before I give a yes? I do have a meeting with the MD so there's a chance to ask some further questions. Specific career path questions have been broad and "organizational is changing but you can be here or here." Warning signs or simply they want to find out where I fit or simply most organizations now really don't have career paths except on paper?
Again, big industry jump for me and the literature is so geared towards top-of-the-class first year types I don't think it is really applicable. I'm finding "creative agency client services" which do provide consulting to a large degree do not speak the same language as a true management consultant firm so I feel like instead of a seasoned professional used to a leadership position I'm kind of lost.
(Also a lot o weirdness or things that through me off probably had a lot to do with on-site Covid related vague answers, as if they didn't know if their clients maybe even would want or need on-site so I'm chalking some of that up to that ... such as walk me through a typical engagement would be "Well before a year ago ..." to "And now we do it this way ... but it should go back")
Response by poster: Yeah thanks, I think a lot of my questions revolve around "what exactly is my role" and it has has wavered from delivery to bizdev, didn't know if that was normal.
posted by geoff. at 3:27 AM on January 11, 2021
posted by geoff. at 3:27 AM on January 11, 2021
> it has has wavered from delivery to bizdev, didn't know if that was normal
no, i don't think that's normal - that sounds more like a messed-up recruitment function rather than anything that's really about the organisation itself
not to say that you can't have a role that's partly delivery & partly business development, but that should be written down in a role specification first, because those functions have different priorities that can directly conflict with each other if you're trying to do them both at the same time (ask me how i know...)
i mean on one level, this is all quite flattering - they like you, and they're trying to figure out where best to fit you in
but, you should definitely clarify the role & the expectations & the success criteria when you talk to the MD, because there are some grounds for confusion there
posted by rd45 at 3:53 AM on January 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
no, i don't think that's normal - that sounds more like a messed-up recruitment function rather than anything that's really about the organisation itself
not to say that you can't have a role that's partly delivery & partly business development, but that should be written down in a role specification first, because those functions have different priorities that can directly conflict with each other if you're trying to do them both at the same time (ask me how i know...)
i mean on one level, this is all quite flattering - they like you, and they're trying to figure out where best to fit you in
but, you should definitely clarify the role & the expectations & the success criteria when you talk to the MD, because there are some grounds for confusion there
posted by rd45 at 3:53 AM on January 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
I briefly left the creative agency world to work at a digital agency inside of a big four consultancy (as a designer, not a dev). The culture wasn’t for me and I left after a few months, but in fairness I think I might have found it more tolerable earlier in my career.
I definitely felt that snobbery you mentioned (I heard the phrase “We are more selective than Harvard!” many times during my brief tenure), which was even more bizarre inside the context of the digital agency group which desperately wanted to be seen as hip and cool (“Look at us, we get to wear jeans! We’re creatives!”).
It sounds like you’ve done more due diligence than I had before jumping in, so apologies if these comments are very basic or obvious:
Have they explained to you how you will get assigned to projects? In the “digital agency within the consultancy” model, I think this isn’t as much of an issue, but if you’re in the larger consultancy you can probably expect to be doing a lot of networking in the hopes of finding projects that are of interest to you. For many people this is no problem, but if you’re not accustomed to essentially having to look for a new job every time a project ends, it might feel a bit odd.
I think you absolutely can ask more specific questions about how people advance within the company. From my observations, advancement seemed to be based on a combination of how billable you were, reviews from your peers/managers, and some formula for measuring your “eminence” (contributing to white papers, corporate community service type things, etc.). Again, not necessarily a bad system—but typically in the creative agency world there are project managers and the like ensuring that staff are being fully utilized, it’s not really your problem to stress out about.
posted by heliotrope at 2:21 PM on January 11, 2021
I definitely felt that snobbery you mentioned (I heard the phrase “We are more selective than Harvard!” many times during my brief tenure), which was even more bizarre inside the context of the digital agency group which desperately wanted to be seen as hip and cool (“Look at us, we get to wear jeans! We’re creatives!”).
It sounds like you’ve done more due diligence than I had before jumping in, so apologies if these comments are very basic or obvious:
Have they explained to you how you will get assigned to projects? In the “digital agency within the consultancy” model, I think this isn’t as much of an issue, but if you’re in the larger consultancy you can probably expect to be doing a lot of networking in the hopes of finding projects that are of interest to you. For many people this is no problem, but if you’re not accustomed to essentially having to look for a new job every time a project ends, it might feel a bit odd.
I think you absolutely can ask more specific questions about how people advance within the company. From my observations, advancement seemed to be based on a combination of how billable you were, reviews from your peers/managers, and some formula for measuring your “eminence” (contributing to white papers, corporate community service type things, etc.). Again, not necessarily a bad system—but typically in the creative agency world there are project managers and the like ensuring that staff are being fully utilized, it’s not really your problem to stress out about.
posted by heliotrope at 2:21 PM on January 11, 2021
Response by poster: Yeah this is the second job where I interviewed without a description or not knowing the job, beyond consulting in some broad respect. Companies won’t mention clients and are secretive. Travel and being on site is obviously vague and there’s a vague paranoia that things are good but might not be yet they need bodies.
Some might be consulting transition but I think a lot of it is Covid. They want experienced people to replace throwing college kids on projects which makes sense, in theory if they cut back I can take on roles others can’t out of school. I’ve heard out of college hiring is near zero.
Interviewing when you don’t know the project, job or anything is extremely hard. Tried keeping questions at the executive level (5 year growth plan, recent acquisitions) and even that went over weird. Asking where I saw myself at the company was odd as I didn’t know what I’d be doing. I don’t think they’re hurting for cash flow, I think they see clients shrink budgets and others just go away like say L Brands yet work still exists people get nervous, even at the biggest firms (even Lehman failed).
So I think we are seeing the big firms with big clients beginning to feel the pinch. I have not seen this in my career as it is a slow burn not a crazy fast financial crash.
posted by geoff. at 4:31 PM on January 11, 2021
Some might be consulting transition but I think a lot of it is Covid. They want experienced people to replace throwing college kids on projects which makes sense, in theory if they cut back I can take on roles others can’t out of school. I’ve heard out of college hiring is near zero.
Interviewing when you don’t know the project, job or anything is extremely hard. Tried keeping questions at the executive level (5 year growth plan, recent acquisitions) and even that went over weird. Asking where I saw myself at the company was odd as I didn’t know what I’d be doing. I don’t think they’re hurting for cash flow, I think they see clients shrink budgets and others just go away like say L Brands yet work still exists people get nervous, even at the biggest firms (even Lehman failed).
So I think we are seeing the big firms with big clients beginning to feel the pinch. I have not seen this in my career as it is a slow burn not a crazy fast financial crash.
posted by geoff. at 4:31 PM on January 11, 2021
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> "organizational is changing but you can be here or here."
Can you say what "here" and "here" actually are, without breaking confidentiality? It might help.
Some fully generic large-consultancy stuff... yes, if you're in a delivery role you'd have been expected (pre-covid) to be on-site in the customer's office for at least four days per week over the life of a given project - although that expectation has been declining anyway because of increasing use of off-shore development teams, and covid might possibly have killed on-site working forever, but we just don't know yet... yes, your future employer will do plenty of O365 and Salesforce implementations - that may not be your thing, and you won't be obliged to take part if not because they already have specialist delivery teams for those products, but prob best not to express too much disdain for their cash cow... yes, you'll have less autonomy & more process BS than you're probably used to... but yes, essentially it's exactly what you've been doing already - building the thing that the customer needs - just with a different logo on your business card & possibly a bit more enterprise-scale rigour to justify the price tag
posted by rd45 at 3:09 AM on January 11, 2021