Automobile Engines and Oil
January 4, 2021 9:08 AM Subscribe
Last week, I purchased a 2017 Nissan Rogue. Thursday, when I was idling the car over lunch and reading the manual the low oil pressure light came on. I turned the vehicle off as instructed. Turned it back on to be sure the warning came back on. It did, so I shut it off. I found underneath the car an alarming oil slick. It was towed back to CarMax and they took a look at it and determined the engine was not damaged. They found that the oil filter had a bad seal.
I have driven quite a bit over the last three days, including a two-hour Sunday drive yesterday. I have not seen any issues with the vehicle. Can I assume that if there was engine damage due to the oil leak that it would have been obvious by now?
Um. Unfortunately no, you can't be sure. Also, unless Carmax take the engine apart and inspect the internals they ALSO can't be *sure* there is no damage. It is possible that you may be ok, though.
If the oil pressure light came on, that means there is almost no oil in the engine. Now, you weren't driving (ie the engine wasn't under load) so that's a plus point that the point at which the engine oil pressure became too low there was no real forces being applied to the various internals that are protected by oil at pressure. Also the fact that there was a large oil slick under the car at this point suggests that a lot of the oil came out while you were sat there at idle with no load on the engine.
So it is likely you got away with it, but nobody can be sure without internal inspection or further info. Oil slicks can look alarming to different people at surprisingly small volumes - did you take a picture or have any realistic guess at how much oil/physical footprint of the slick? If more than a quart came out while you were stationary, then I think you are most likely ok. But that's a guess and anyone that gives a more firm answer is probably being optimistic rather than accurate.
This means that you need to take a gamble on whether you think it is worth the (I personally think small) risk (if there really was a LOT of oil under the car when you looked) or whether you think you should return the car back to Carmax and say you don't want it because they can't be confident there is no damage. I don't think there is any way that you could get any realistic kind of promise from them that if any damage did occur or show itself in the next year or 10,000 miles that they would cover it so really you are gambling a little. It may be worth telling them you don't want the car and being pretty firm and at the very least negotiating against that to get a free or reduced cost warranty from them that may cover the damage if it did occur. An engine replacement on a car of that age would be very pricey so this needs to be considered even though I do think the risks may be small.
posted by Brockles at 9:21 AM on January 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
If the oil pressure light came on, that means there is almost no oil in the engine. Now, you weren't driving (ie the engine wasn't under load) so that's a plus point that the point at which the engine oil pressure became too low there was no real forces being applied to the various internals that are protected by oil at pressure. Also the fact that there was a large oil slick under the car at this point suggests that a lot of the oil came out while you were sat there at idle with no load on the engine.
So it is likely you got away with it, but nobody can be sure without internal inspection or further info. Oil slicks can look alarming to different people at surprisingly small volumes - did you take a picture or have any realistic guess at how much oil/physical footprint of the slick? If more than a quart came out while you were stationary, then I think you are most likely ok. But that's a guess and anyone that gives a more firm answer is probably being optimistic rather than accurate.
This means that you need to take a gamble on whether you think it is worth the (I personally think small) risk (if there really was a LOT of oil under the car when you looked) or whether you think you should return the car back to Carmax and say you don't want it because they can't be confident there is no damage. I don't think there is any way that you could get any realistic kind of promise from them that if any damage did occur or show itself in the next year or 10,000 miles that they would cover it so really you are gambling a little. It may be worth telling them you don't want the car and being pretty firm and at the very least negotiating against that to get a free or reduced cost warranty from them that may cover the damage if it did occur. An engine replacement on a car of that age would be very pricey so this needs to be considered even though I do think the risks may be small.
posted by Brockles at 9:21 AM on January 4, 2021 [6 favorites]
If they only topped off the oil, have them drain it completely AND SAVE IT FOR ANALYSIS.
It is possible that the oil filter only worked loose after a couple hot/cold cycles, and you caught it in time.
That the light only came on when you noticed it, and not intermittently before that time, is a pretty good omen, actually....
posted by notsnot at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
It is possible that the oil filter only worked loose after a couple hot/cold cycles, and you caught it in time.
That the light only came on when you noticed it, and not intermittently before that time, is a pretty good omen, actually....
posted by notsnot at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Technically, that's not a low oil warning light, but low oil PRESSURE warning light. Though operationally for the driver they are basically the same. It's basically telling you there's not enough oil in the system to main pressure.
If you drove most of the week, and only found the problem on Thursday, you're fine. The oil pressure was fine during those times you were driving. You did the right thing in stopping the car and had it towed to the seller when you saw the light. I would not worry about it.
Though for your future thought... You need a car emergency kit, both to take care of the car, and a survival kit for yourself in case you are stuck, basically. One can of spare liquid for everything in your car (1-2 qt of engine oil, 1--2 qts of transmission fluid, 1 qt of brake fluid, etc.), except you just carry water, not coolant (water's fine for emergencies). Rags for wiping stuff, small bottle of Gojo-type hand cleaner. Maybe emergency blankets, emergency repair tape, duct tape, electrical tape, some emergency food bars (maybe), cheap multi-tool, spare power bank, spare car charger, jumper cable, road flares, windshield sunblock, reflective vest, triangle reflectors, that sort of thing.
posted by kschang at 10:08 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you drove most of the week, and only found the problem on Thursday, you're fine. The oil pressure was fine during those times you were driving. You did the right thing in stopping the car and had it towed to the seller when you saw the light. I would not worry about it.
Though for your future thought... You need a car emergency kit, both to take care of the car, and a survival kit for yourself in case you are stuck, basically. One can of spare liquid for everything in your car (1-2 qt of engine oil, 1--2 qts of transmission fluid, 1 qt of brake fluid, etc.), except you just carry water, not coolant (water's fine for emergencies). Rags for wiping stuff, small bottle of Gojo-type hand cleaner. Maybe emergency blankets, emergency repair tape, duct tape, electrical tape, some emergency food bars (maybe), cheap multi-tool, spare power bank, spare car charger, jumper cable, road flares, windshield sunblock, reflective vest, triangle reflectors, that sort of thing.
posted by kschang at 10:08 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: The receipt says 5 quarts of oil were added to the engine. From what I have read, that is all it holds. That may not be a fair way to judge because it sat for three hours after I turned off the engine and it was leaking the whole time. I did find a small oil slick in my driveway, so it was leaking before I left for work. From what I have seen, the leak got worse as I sat idling while reading the manual. Whatever seal on the oil filter was failing, completely failed while it was idling. I also do not know if they drained it before adding oil.
Photos taken right after I shut the engine off.
https://flic.kr/p/2kp6ptb
https://flic.kr/p/2kp6pZg
posted by zzazazz at 10:11 AM on January 4, 2021
Photos taken right after I shut the engine off.
https://flic.kr/p/2kp6ptb
https://flic.kr/p/2kp6pZg
posted by zzazazz at 10:11 AM on January 4, 2021
Sounds like a typical double-seal-oil-filter problem to me.
When you change your oil filter, it's critical to remove the old rubber seal. If you don't, two will be installed at once, which often leads to an eventual catastrophic failure of the oil filter seal.
Your saying that it was the seal at the oil filter that failed would lead me to the conclusion that it wasn't installed correctly by hopefully the dealer, who should have changed all maintenance parts for a car for resale as a matter of due diligence, or worse, the previous owner if the dealer didn't shape up the car for resale.
posted by sydnius at 10:52 AM on January 4, 2021
When you change your oil filter, it's critical to remove the old rubber seal. If you don't, two will be installed at once, which often leads to an eventual catastrophic failure of the oil filter seal.
Your saying that it was the seal at the oil filter that failed would lead me to the conclusion that it wasn't installed correctly by hopefully the dealer, who should have changed all maintenance parts for a car for resale as a matter of due diligence, or worse, the previous owner if the dealer didn't shape up the car for resale.
posted by sydnius at 10:52 AM on January 4, 2021
So we can establish that the engine was completely empty, and that is definitely NOT 5 quarts of oil on the ground. It's maybe 1 at most. However, a car can idle with that much oil in it without damage.
Oooof. It's a hard one. Engines running just above oil pressure light threshold can be fine or can do damage that will only appear in 10,000 miles time. I am going to have to vote 'inconclusive' on whether the engine is damaged. I'd risk it on a car that I owned already and was stuck with, but maybe not one I could conceivably reject for this fault being ' as delivered'.
posted by Brockles at 11:06 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Oooof. It's a hard one. Engines running just above oil pressure light threshold can be fine or can do damage that will only appear in 10,000 miles time. I am going to have to vote 'inconclusive' on whether the engine is damaged. I'd risk it on a car that I owned already and was stuck with, but maybe not one I could conceivably reject for this fault being ' as delivered'.
posted by Brockles at 11:06 AM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
Zzazazz, they may have charged you for five quarts because they drained whatever was left in in the engine first. With an unknown amount missing, it could take a while to add some...see if it shows up on the dipstick...add more...see if it shows up on the dipstick...etc.
At this point, I'm with Brockles. The car they gave you last week had a problem that may or may not have been catastrophic. You have good reason to say, "take this thing back".
(also coloring my opinion is that it's a Nissan. My experience with the brand is that they're great in the ideal, but a bitch to work on, and no thought is made to real-world things like running low on oil. On a Honda? I'd say you were golden.)
posted by notsnot at 11:24 AM on January 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
At this point, I'm with Brockles. The car they gave you last week had a problem that may or may not have been catastrophic. You have good reason to say, "take this thing back".
(also coloring my opinion is that it's a Nissan. My experience with the brand is that they're great in the ideal, but a bitch to work on, and no thought is made to real-world things like running low on oil. On a Honda? I'd say you were golden.)
posted by notsnot at 11:24 AM on January 4, 2021 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the tips. I think I will take it back. There are plenty of nearly identical vehicles in Carmax inventory that I could exhange it for.
posted by zzazazz at 1:02 PM on January 4, 2021
posted by zzazazz at 1:02 PM on January 4, 2021
Carmax has a pretty good reputation for honest dealing, so I would trust what they said. On the other hand, if they do have an identical model available and will give it to you without too much hassle, why not ease your mind and do that?
posted by seasparrow at 2:11 PM on January 4, 2021
posted by seasparrow at 2:11 PM on January 4, 2021
One of the reasons why Carmax charges a premium for their cars is that they make a claim of thorough inspection. I'd have major questions about how thorough or valuable this inspection really is if they missed a pretty major oil leak from something that's not an exotic or hard to find problem. I'd ask for another car and also a discount in the amount of what it would cost me to take it to my independent mechanic for a thorough inspection.
posted by quince at 3:11 PM on January 4, 2021
posted by quince at 3:11 PM on January 4, 2021
In my experience, CarMax has plenty of reputation for dishonest dealing too. They’re a used car dealer. The business is inherently dishonest.
I concur with making them eat it. Take it back. Swap it out. As Brockles says, you won’t know how much damage was done, if any, but it’s certainly possible you shaved years and/or tens of thousands of miles off the life of that motor. It isn’t on you to get out the endoscope and look inside cylinders or send the old oil off for analysis.
And yeah, that could be a typical double seal failure but why did that happen? And why did it happen at idle, under relatively low pressure, after you’d presumably driven it to wherever you were? Why didn’t it blow when you stepped on the gas hard for the first time?
When was the oil last change, and what kind of shitty mechanic didn’t put the filter back on right? Double-seal failure is a shade tree amateur mistake. If the car was prepped for sale and that included an oil change, what else did they f up? If not, how come the filter seal didn’t fail in the life of the car since its last oil change?
Did it all come out when you noticed it or was it leaking for a long while before that, possibly including before you took delivery?
None of this needs to be in the back of your mind every time you hear a funky sound from your motor on a cold morning for the next ten years. F that. You pay a healthy premium for the CarMax experience, I’ve noticed. It’s a commodity car. This is why you pay that premium. Use the guarantee. Ditch this one.
posted by spitbull at 5:55 PM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
I concur with making them eat it. Take it back. Swap it out. As Brockles says, you won’t know how much damage was done, if any, but it’s certainly possible you shaved years and/or tens of thousands of miles off the life of that motor. It isn’t on you to get out the endoscope and look inside cylinders or send the old oil off for analysis.
And yeah, that could be a typical double seal failure but why did that happen? And why did it happen at idle, under relatively low pressure, after you’d presumably driven it to wherever you were? Why didn’t it blow when you stepped on the gas hard for the first time?
When was the oil last change, and what kind of shitty mechanic didn’t put the filter back on right? Double-seal failure is a shade tree amateur mistake. If the car was prepped for sale and that included an oil change, what else did they f up? If not, how come the filter seal didn’t fail in the life of the car since its last oil change?
Did it all come out when you noticed it or was it leaking for a long while before that, possibly including before you took delivery?
None of this needs to be in the back of your mind every time you hear a funky sound from your motor on a cold morning for the next ten years. F that. You pay a healthy premium for the CarMax experience, I’ve noticed. It’s a commodity car. This is why you pay that premium. Use the guarantee. Ditch this one.
posted by spitbull at 5:55 PM on January 4, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by leaper at 9:13 AM on January 4, 2021