Should I spend Christmas at my friend's house? Difficulty level: COVID
December 8, 2020 8:02 PM Subscribe
A friend wants me to spend Christmas at her house. Please help me assess the COVID risk of doing so.
Normally I go to my parents' house for Christmas, and we have a big family do for 10-16 people at my oldest brother's house on the day. They're still doing it this year despite my urging them not to, and will likely have 11 people present from a total of six separate households located in various towns/cities in Ontario, among them my SIL, an R.N., my niece Clementine, who is a high school teacher, my niece Peaches, who is a student nurse, my grandniece and grandnephew who are attending elementary school, other people who are going to on-site work, and my 82-year-old parents. My dad has borderline COPD and my mother has a faulty heart valve, and both my parents have had cancer. My father is at especially high-risk because he has a part-time gig driving the Amish in their region (the Amish church dictates that they can't own or drive cars themselves, but they can accept rides from non-Amish), which he has refused to give up because he loves doing it and "the pandemic is just mass hysteria". Dad actually did get COVID from the Amish over a month ago, but astoundingly despite testing positive for it, he remained asymptomatic and did not transmit it to my mother, and they are out of quarantine now. But he's still #&^%@! driving the Amish. I have told them I will not be coming home for Christmas.
This means I will be alone at my house in Toronto for Christmas. I have essentially spent 2020 completely alone. I live alone and work from home. I have spent time with others just four times this year: a committee meeting in January, a second committee meeting in February, a birthday celebration at my house involving my parents and sister in August, and a picnic in the park in September with a friend. I only leave the house to do errands and go for walks. In case this needs saying, it sucks.
But... today my friend invited me to spend Christmas at her house in a little town north of Toronto, offering to come pick me up so I won't have to take public transit. Her family won't have any other visitors but me for Christmas. She's basically a SAHM, but her four-year-old daughter goes to junior kindergarten and her partner goes to the office because his jackass boss refuses to let his staff work from home because he doesn't believe they'll really work if they do, so this isn't all that low-risk. The three of them have all had mild cases of COVID, but back in late February/early March.
I'm afraid that I'm only considering this because I have spent an entire year in isolation and will now have to spend even Christmas alone, because my friend's little girl considers me an aunt and I haven't seen her for over a year, and because this scenario would be less risky than the COVID-fest my family is having. Should I go?
Normally I go to my parents' house for Christmas, and we have a big family do for 10-16 people at my oldest brother's house on the day. They're still doing it this year despite my urging them not to, and will likely have 11 people present from a total of six separate households located in various towns/cities in Ontario, among them my SIL, an R.N., my niece Clementine, who is a high school teacher, my niece Peaches, who is a student nurse, my grandniece and grandnephew who are attending elementary school, other people who are going to on-site work, and my 82-year-old parents. My dad has borderline COPD and my mother has a faulty heart valve, and both my parents have had cancer. My father is at especially high-risk because he has a part-time gig driving the Amish in their region (the Amish church dictates that they can't own or drive cars themselves, but they can accept rides from non-Amish), which he has refused to give up because he loves doing it and "the pandemic is just mass hysteria". Dad actually did get COVID from the Amish over a month ago, but astoundingly despite testing positive for it, he remained asymptomatic and did not transmit it to my mother, and they are out of quarantine now. But he's still #&^%@! driving the Amish. I have told them I will not be coming home for Christmas.
This means I will be alone at my house in Toronto for Christmas. I have essentially spent 2020 completely alone. I live alone and work from home. I have spent time with others just four times this year: a committee meeting in January, a second committee meeting in February, a birthday celebration at my house involving my parents and sister in August, and a picnic in the park in September with a friend. I only leave the house to do errands and go for walks. In case this needs saying, it sucks.
But... today my friend invited me to spend Christmas at her house in a little town north of Toronto, offering to come pick me up so I won't have to take public transit. Her family won't have any other visitors but me for Christmas. She's basically a SAHM, but her four-year-old daughter goes to junior kindergarten and her partner goes to the office because his jackass boss refuses to let his staff work from home because he doesn't believe they'll really work if they do, so this isn't all that low-risk. The three of them have all had mild cases of COVID, but back in late February/early March.
I'm afraid that I'm only considering this because I have spent an entire year in isolation and will now have to spend even Christmas alone, because my friend's little girl considers me an aunt and I haven't seen her for over a year, and because this scenario would be less risky than the COVID-fest my family is having. Should I go?
The people you're visiting have all had COVID and you won't have to take public transit to get there? That sounds pretty darn low-risk to me, for you and for them. We don't know for sure how much immunity people get after having COVID or how long it lasts, but it seems likely that they're still immune. I guess there's some possibility that the child or the husband could bring the virus home from school or work but the current thinking seems to be that transmission from surfaces doesn't happen much. Unless you have some health condition that makes you high risk (and maybe even then), this seems like a perfectly reasonable plan to me.
posted by Redstart at 8:22 PM on December 8, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 8:22 PM on December 8, 2020 [18 favorites]
I can only imagine that the Social Distance podcast’s James Hamblin would say, “No.”
posted by bixfrankonis at 8:24 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by bixfrankonis at 8:24 PM on December 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
If they’ve all had COVID already it’s unlikely they’ll infect you, based on what we know about how the virus works. Personally, if I were you I’d do it, as long as you trust them not to have other surprise guests.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:28 PM on December 8, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Narrative Priorities at 8:28 PM on December 8, 2020 [5 favorites]
How do they know they had Covid? There weren’t a lot of tests available in Feb/early March.
posted by rdr at 8:41 PM on December 8, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by rdr at 8:41 PM on December 8, 2020 [14 favorites]
Response by poster: How do they know they had Covid? There weren’t a lot of tests available in Feb/early March.
They weren't tested, but when my friend became ill following a trip she took to Mexico in February, and then her daughter and partner also became ill, she called Telehealth Ontario, and the nurse who took her call said they had COVID.
posted by orange swan at 8:56 PM on December 8, 2020
They weren't tested, but when my friend became ill following a trip she took to Mexico in February, and then her daughter and partner also became ill, she called Telehealth Ontario, and the nurse who took her call said they had COVID.
posted by orange swan at 8:56 PM on December 8, 2020
No, for so many reasons.
Even if all three of them did have COVID early in 2020, there's nothing saying for certain they can't get it again. Or that they couldn't pass it to you. Or that you couldn't be bringing it to them.
Your friend's child and partner don't quarantine, so you'll be exposed to everyone in their circles, which include, by your description, a school of small children and staff, and an entire workplace run by a boss who doesn't allow WFH. Your vectors for infection number in the hundreds.
Also, they're going to drive down and pick you up? Will there be a stop for gas? Bathroom breaks? More opportunities for you to either get it or pass it along, this time to the total strangers who don't have the luxury of staying isolated.
You want to hear it from the CDC? Here you go.
You're Canadian and you don't like the CDC? Try the CBC instead.
Stay home. Stay home. Stay the fuck home.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:08 PM on December 8, 2020 [21 favorites]
Even if all three of them did have COVID early in 2020, there's nothing saying for certain they can't get it again. Or that they couldn't pass it to you. Or that you couldn't be bringing it to them.
Your friend's child and partner don't quarantine, so you'll be exposed to everyone in their circles, which include, by your description, a school of small children and staff, and an entire workplace run by a boss who doesn't allow WFH. Your vectors for infection number in the hundreds.
Also, they're going to drive down and pick you up? Will there be a stop for gas? Bathroom breaks? More opportunities for you to either get it or pass it along, this time to the total strangers who don't have the luxury of staying isolated.
You want to hear it from the CDC? Here you go.
You're Canadian and you don't like the CDC? Try the CBC instead.
Stay home. Stay home. Stay the fuck home.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:08 PM on December 8, 2020 [21 favorites]
The number of people who I know who are "sure" they had COVID early on, and later tested negative for the antibody is... more than zero. A ton of people have had COVID, so maybe they did, but if they weren't tested, I personally would not trust it (and I also wouldn't trust the health risk judgement of someone who would make such a determination without a better diagnosis than a phone call).
posted by primethyme at 9:16 PM on December 8, 2020 [23 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 9:16 PM on December 8, 2020 [23 favorites]
Oh my god, it's killing me to read these answers, thinking about how you may very well end up either staying home or going but feeling like a criminal for it, based on what people are telling you here. I wish you hadn't posted this question. You live alone and work from home and don't socialize. There's practically no chance you're going to give anyone else COVID by going on this visit. Let's say the people you're visiting all have COVID when you get there and you catch it from them. It hardly matters (except to you) because there's essentially no one for you to pass it on to. Sure, there are possible scenarios where you end up spreading it through some unlikely set of circumstances, but you can imagine similar scenarios for every errand you run, too. Doing this is not the absolute safest possible thing you could do, but it's so much safer than things many other people are doing every day without being criticized - sending kids to school, working outside the home, having a plumber come to the house - that I urge you to stop worrying about it, stop reading the answers here, and just do it.
posted by Redstart at 9:38 PM on December 8, 2020 [55 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 9:38 PM on December 8, 2020 [55 favorites]
Even when they were only testing people with covid like symptoms early on around here (Washingotn State), the percentage of positive tests were only in the low teens on the worst days. I'd bet that's a reasonable starting guess for the chances that anyone who never actually got tested actually had the virus.
So whatever your decision, assume there's an 80-90% chance that this group of friends did not actually catch the virus and is not actually presently resistant to it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:45 PM on December 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
So whatever your decision, assume there's an 80-90% chance that this group of friends did not actually catch the virus and is not actually presently resistant to it.
posted by Zalzidrax at 9:45 PM on December 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
Don't do it. Just hang in there for a couple of months more. The vaccine is literally just around the corner. You've done really well staying safe for 9 months. You've made it this far; don't let that be in vain. Maybe set a target for reuniting with cherished ones on Canada Day. That would be a much better time to get together.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:13 PM on December 8, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:13 PM on December 8, 2020 [7 favorites]
Don't do it. But nothing should stop you from having an outdoor picnic or walk with a friend more often, you don't have to choose between travelling to stay at someone's house and not seeing another person this year.
posted by bashing rocks together at 11:16 PM on December 8, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by bashing rocks together at 11:16 PM on December 8, 2020 [15 favorites]
I would go. There's a really low risk of becoming infected and if you do, given how seriously it sounds like you've taken the isolation measures this whole time, if you stick with that after you most likely won't pass it onwards. So judge whether you want to put your own self at risk, but after this long in isolation, I'd say you've earned it.
posted by mannequito at 11:25 PM on December 8, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by mannequito at 11:25 PM on December 8, 2020 [6 favorites]
If your calculations about risk are off, or they didn't have COVID, then either you or these people you care about could be at serious risk by doing this. Loneliness sucks, but it's not forever. Dying, on the other hand...
Make plans to see them after you're all vaccinated. Plan a huge party for after that, a week's visit. Or a trip together. Send the little girl a great present and tell her you can't wait till you see her again.
Just hold on a little longer.
posted by emjaybee at 11:38 PM on December 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
Make plans to see them after you're all vaccinated. Plan a huge party for after that, a week's visit. Or a trip together. Send the little girl a great present and tell her you can't wait till you see her again.
Just hold on a little longer.
posted by emjaybee at 11:38 PM on December 8, 2020 [4 favorites]
You know what? Keeping an eye on transmission rates in your community, I’d say to decide to go, tentatively. I know there are folks who are spending time with folks outside their household, with a partner, for example. Keep checking in to see if anyone in the husband’s office gets Covid. Here in Oregon, the recommendation is to gather with only one other household. Lots of people will say no here, but what you are proposing is less risky than, for example, the time I spent this summer with my (now-former) partner who lived in a separate household with housemates.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:10 AM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 12:10 AM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
If I recall correctly, you're fairly young (40s) and a woman, no? As you've been so thoroughly isolated, the risk only falls on you, so in your place I think I'd go. Even if you catch Covid the chance of you needing hospital treatment is low, and you won't be risking passing it on to anyone else. And loneliness is an awful thing in itself. If you'd been ensconced with a nuclear family all year, or had someone vulnerable at home, my answer would be different.
posted by altolinguistic at 12:24 AM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by altolinguistic at 12:24 AM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
I would go, in your position, if you don't have any risk factors. I am far more worried about transmitting covid to someone more at risk than me than catching it myself. I think its ok to feel that way, if you really want to go, and can quarantine when you come back. Your mental health matters too and it sounds like you've been alone for a long time.
So: not without risks, but if you are as careful as you say the only risks are to you, so its your choice.
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:15 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
So: not without risks, but if you are as careful as you say the only risks are to you, so its your choice.
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:15 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Canada will receive its first doses of the Pfizer vaccine before the end of the month, with millions more to follow early in the new year. Canadian officials had initially expected to get a total of 6 million doses of vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna by the end of March. [...] Since the pandemic began, Canada has reported a total of 415,182 cases of COVID-19 and 12,665 deaths. Ontario and Quebec, the two most populous provinces, account for 67 per cent of the total cases and 87 per cent of the deaths.
No, you shouldn't spend Christmas at your friend's house. I'm sorry. If you smothered your worries and went, and had a good holiday, and didn't catch COVID-19... you are still likely to catch hell from your family. You and your relatives have probably clashed over their inability to gauge COVID risk several times this year. To them, it's going to look a lot like you lectured them and spurned tradition, only to indulge in an out-of-town Christmas gathering anyway. Why forfeit the moral high ground, when you have serious misgivings about this newly-hatched plan?
Say you did get sick. You live alone, and nursing yourself through even a "mild" case of coronavirus is difficult. There's always some fresh horror about the lingering effects of the disease (tooth loss? this is fine), and you want to keep as healthy as possible to live independently as long as you'd like. If you fell ill now, after all your diligence all these miserable months, you'd just about break your leg kicking your own keister.
It's lovely that you were invited. Thank your friends, and take a raincheck for next year.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:31 AM on December 9, 2020 [20 favorites]
No, you shouldn't spend Christmas at your friend's house. I'm sorry. If you smothered your worries and went, and had a good holiday, and didn't catch COVID-19... you are still likely to catch hell from your family. You and your relatives have probably clashed over their inability to gauge COVID risk several times this year. To them, it's going to look a lot like you lectured them and spurned tradition, only to indulge in an out-of-town Christmas gathering anyway. Why forfeit the moral high ground, when you have serious misgivings about this newly-hatched plan?
Say you did get sick. You live alone, and nursing yourself through even a "mild" case of coronavirus is difficult. There's always some fresh horror about the lingering effects of the disease (tooth loss? this is fine), and you want to keep as healthy as possible to live independently as long as you'd like. If you fell ill now, after all your diligence all these miserable months, you'd just about break your leg kicking your own keister.
It's lovely that you were invited. Thank your friends, and take a raincheck for next year.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:31 AM on December 9, 2020 [20 favorites]
I also live on my own and work from home, though unlike you I've been seeing maybe one person a week, outside, socially, most of the way through the year.
Would not going to your friends' place for Christmas have a serious, lasting negative effect on your mental health? If that's the case, I would probably go. On the other hand, if staying at home was just going to be a day or two of feeling a bit sucky about one crap Christmas, I'd stay at home.
Nobody can tell you what level of risk you're comfortable with. There's definitely some risk - you have to decide how big the risks are from you not going, and balance them.
But I have to push back on a couple of things upthread:
If they’ve all had COVID already it’s unlikely they’ll infect you
Is there any evidence for that? I've been told by my doctor that reinfection is possible. If they can catch it again, they can pass it on to you.
If I recall correctly, you're fairly young (40s) and a woman, no? [...] Even if you catch Covid the chance of you needing hospital treatment is low
I'm so fed up of hearing ths shit. Hospitalisation is not the only serious risk with covid. I also fit that demographic, had likely-covid in March/April, and have been sick with long covid for 9 months now. I used to run long distance but haven't been able to do any exercise above a short, slow walk without getting flu-like symptoms and exhaustion. Exercise used to be one of my main forms of stress release and it's gone just when I need it most. My lungs feel permanently weird. My liver enzyme levels are all over the place and nobody knows why. My world has shrunk to my immediate neighbourhood (even in summer when infection levels here dropped and my friends were all getting away for staycations). I have to get the bus half a mile to the supermarket because walking it is too much. I have no idea at all if or when I'll ever get better. I know two other previously-healthy women in their 40s who are in the same situation only worse. Hospitalisation. Is. Not. The. Only. Risk. With. Covid.
FWIW, I'm in a 'support bubble' with one other person who lives alone and we'll spend Christmas together. But neither of us are working outside the home and although she goes into shops fairly frequently (while mask-wearing), that's the only indoor contact she's had with other people for a few months.
Separate but related question (no need to answer here obvs and there might be a perfectly good answer to this) - why have you seen nobody else all year? Meeting other people outside is relatively low risk, it would seem to me that a better way of balancing covid risk with isolation would be to see people outdoors for a short period of time on a regular basis so that you don't reach a point of such loneliness that you're forced to consider more risky options to keep yourself sane.
posted by penguin pie at 2:44 AM on December 9, 2020 [48 favorites]
Would not going to your friends' place for Christmas have a serious, lasting negative effect on your mental health? If that's the case, I would probably go. On the other hand, if staying at home was just going to be a day or two of feeling a bit sucky about one crap Christmas, I'd stay at home.
Nobody can tell you what level of risk you're comfortable with. There's definitely some risk - you have to decide how big the risks are from you not going, and balance them.
But I have to push back on a couple of things upthread:
If they’ve all had COVID already it’s unlikely they’ll infect you
Is there any evidence for that? I've been told by my doctor that reinfection is possible. If they can catch it again, they can pass it on to you.
If I recall correctly, you're fairly young (40s) and a woman, no? [...] Even if you catch Covid the chance of you needing hospital treatment is low
I'm so fed up of hearing ths shit. Hospitalisation is not the only serious risk with covid. I also fit that demographic, had likely-covid in March/April, and have been sick with long covid for 9 months now. I used to run long distance but haven't been able to do any exercise above a short, slow walk without getting flu-like symptoms and exhaustion. Exercise used to be one of my main forms of stress release and it's gone just when I need it most. My lungs feel permanently weird. My liver enzyme levels are all over the place and nobody knows why. My world has shrunk to my immediate neighbourhood (even in summer when infection levels here dropped and my friends were all getting away for staycations). I have to get the bus half a mile to the supermarket because walking it is too much. I have no idea at all if or when I'll ever get better. I know two other previously-healthy women in their 40s who are in the same situation only worse. Hospitalisation. Is. Not. The. Only. Risk. With. Covid.
FWIW, I'm in a 'support bubble' with one other person who lives alone and we'll spend Christmas together. But neither of us are working outside the home and although she goes into shops fairly frequently (while mask-wearing), that's the only indoor contact she's had with other people for a few months.
Separate but related question (no need to answer here obvs and there might be a perfectly good answer to this) - why have you seen nobody else all year? Meeting other people outside is relatively low risk, it would seem to me that a better way of balancing covid risk with isolation would be to see people outdoors for a short period of time on a regular basis so that you don't reach a point of such loneliness that you're forced to consider more risky options to keep yourself sane.
posted by penguin pie at 2:44 AM on December 9, 2020 [48 favorites]
I would not be confident enough that they truly had COVID, that they cannot catch it again or transmit it to you, or that you cannot bring it to them given that you are going out and doing errands. The latter part of that is in your control, so if you decide to do this, I would start hard quarantining right now; no more errands, only contactless deliveries.
But I would not do this in your shoes. I would instead work on figuring out ways to get some outdoor, masked and appropriately distanced social contact into your life. Given that she’s willing to drive to you anyway, is it a short enough drive that she could come to you for an outdoor park hangout, bundled up warmly? Is there another local friend you could do that with?
I’m sorry your family is making bad choices that are stressful for you, and that you are isolated and lonely. I absolutely understand why you would be considering this. But in your shoes I wouldn’t do it.
posted by Stacey at 3:29 AM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
But I would not do this in your shoes. I would instead work on figuring out ways to get some outdoor, masked and appropriately distanced social contact into your life. Given that she’s willing to drive to you anyway, is it a short enough drive that she could come to you for an outdoor park hangout, bundled up warmly? Is there another local friend you could do that with?
I’m sorry your family is making bad choices that are stressful for you, and that you are isolated and lonely. I absolutely understand why you would be considering this. But in your shoes I wouldn’t do it.
posted by Stacey at 3:29 AM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
I've been isolated since March (vagaries of the UK housing market mean I live by myself a long way from family, friends and colleagues, and I can't drive), I'm a woman in my early forties with no relevant health issues other than very mild asthma, and I would not do this.
I'm a very risk-averse person, and the more I've learned about COVID-19, the more it's come to scare me. I'm scared of long COVID; I'm scared of losing my sense of smell or taste, even for a short while; I'm scared I might breathe on a delivery driver and pass it on; I'm scared that if I chose to do something outside my current norm, and caught it, I'd beat myself up for it, both for having taken an unnecessary risk and for having constrained my life so much this year and then caught it anyway. Especially now that vaccination has begun and the end is in sight.
So I'm staying put over Christmas; it'll be odd and sad, but I'm stocking up on delicious chocolates and my favourite kinds of alcohol, and buying myself books that I know will lift my spirits, and putting them all away to take out on Christmas morning.
And I think Iris Gambol makes a very good point -- irrespective of the risks, if you shun your family only to go and spend Christmas with a friend, chances are they won't take it well.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:40 AM on December 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
I'm a very risk-averse person, and the more I've learned about COVID-19, the more it's come to scare me. I'm scared of long COVID; I'm scared of losing my sense of smell or taste, even for a short while; I'm scared I might breathe on a delivery driver and pass it on; I'm scared that if I chose to do something outside my current norm, and caught it, I'd beat myself up for it, both for having taken an unnecessary risk and for having constrained my life so much this year and then caught it anyway. Especially now that vaccination has begun and the end is in sight.
So I'm staying put over Christmas; it'll be odd and sad, but I'm stocking up on delicious chocolates and my favourite kinds of alcohol, and buying myself books that I know will lift my spirits, and putting them all away to take out on Christmas morning.
And I think Iris Gambol makes a very good point -- irrespective of the risks, if you shun your family only to go and spend Christmas with a friend, chances are they won't take it well.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:40 AM on December 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
Anecdata-ly, I thought I had COVID back in mid-March. It was spiking in my area and I had all the symptoms we knew about at the time. But I've had two antibody tests since then and they both came back negative. If I had it (big if), I have no antibodies to protect me. Whatever you decide, I wouldn't do it on the basis of thinking they're immune.
Beyond that, it sounds like this really comes down to your personal risk tolerance, since (at least as described) you have no opportunities to pass this along to others. How is your area's hospital availability? If you needed an ICU bed - not now but three weeks from Christmas - would you know you could get one? Could you handle the long-term symptoms? Is a (small but real) risk of getting it just ahead of the vaccine coming worth this particular gathering?
I can't answer those questions for you and I don't think Metafilter can either. If you do decide to stay home, though, I hope you'll consider safer, non-indoors ways to connect with people. I know virtual sucks, but it's something. Outdoor, distanced gatherings may be possible. Etc.
posted by pie ninja at 3:56 AM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
Beyond that, it sounds like this really comes down to your personal risk tolerance, since (at least as described) you have no opportunities to pass this along to others. How is your area's hospital availability? If you needed an ICU bed - not now but three weeks from Christmas - would you know you could get one? Could you handle the long-term symptoms? Is a (small but real) risk of getting it just ahead of the vaccine coming worth this particular gathering?
I can't answer those questions for you and I don't think Metafilter can either. If you do decide to stay home, though, I hope you'll consider safer, non-indoors ways to connect with people. I know virtual sucks, but it's something. Outdoor, distanced gatherings may be possible. Etc.
posted by pie ninja at 3:56 AM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think there’s a risk, especially with the little one in jk. We just pulled our elementary school aged child out of the TDSB for a circuit breaker for our family (I know it doesn’t work that way) while they readjust their abysmal policy which was, I shit you not, if one class is self-isolating for Covid, say grade 2, siblings of students in that class can still go to school. This is still Ontario policy, so your small town kindergarten student could be in that situation.
I was sick in March but I would in no way bet my future health on Telehealth. Telehealth cannot diagnose you!!!! It’s nurses attached to computer generated questions with a database that at that time said “statistically possible you have Covid, stay home.”
That said.
Toronto’s “not really a lockdown” specifically states that people who live alone can bubble with one other household. That is a recommendation because mental health is still health and just like there’s a risk of Covid if you have to get cancer treatment, sometimes in the real world you end up weighing risks. Covid is definitely serious. So is isolation. Only you know where your risk there is at.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:12 AM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
I was sick in March but I would in no way bet my future health on Telehealth. Telehealth cannot diagnose you!!!! It’s nurses attached to computer generated questions with a database that at that time said “statistically possible you have Covid, stay home.”
That said.
Toronto’s “not really a lockdown” specifically states that people who live alone can bubble with one other household. That is a recommendation because mental health is still health and just like there’s a risk of Covid if you have to get cancer treatment, sometimes in the real world you end up weighing risks. Covid is definitely serious. So is isolation. Only you know where your risk there is at.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:12 AM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
Only you can make this decision for yourself, and as someone who contrived a multi week (like, 2 month) long planned series of hard quarantines to see 4 members of my family for American thanksgiving I get what you want out of it. But I would just say that there is something pretty off, to me, about how careful you have been since March (we live in NYC and have avoided public transit and any indoor events but biked and walked to masked outdoor hangouts) and then suddenly being inside eating and drinking with friends, potentially exposing yourself to their pre-elementary school and office based contacts.
I think, based on my recent experience being inside my beloved families home unmasked for the first time in a year, you may enjoy the experience less than you think you will and there will certainly be a period of psychological adjustment - the first couple days were honestly so weird to me that I was nearly impossible to relax because the feeling of normal interactions felt unusual and unsafe (even though we had taken extreme precautions)
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 4:19 AM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I think, based on my recent experience being inside my beloved families home unmasked for the first time in a year, you may enjoy the experience less than you think you will and there will certainly be a period of psychological adjustment - the first couple days were honestly so weird to me that I was nearly impossible to relax because the feeling of normal interactions felt unusual and unsafe (even though we had taken extreme precautions)
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 4:19 AM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
I don’t know what current Canadian guidelines are but I’ll just say that current evidence only suggests a 90 window of immunity after getting COVID and that reinfection is very much possible.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isolation.html
posted by raccoon409 at 4:47 AM on December 9, 2020
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/duration-isolation.html
posted by raccoon409 at 4:47 AM on December 9, 2020
Don't go. It's not worth the risk.
My brother in law got COVID and was on a ventilator for 9 days at age 37. There were hospital lawyers arguing over his struggling body. We don't know for sure where he got it. It CAN live on surfaces, contrary to what a lot of people in MF have claimed variously here and there. Your friend and their family have not gotten a positive ID for COVID bc when that telehealth nurse "diagnosed" them there was a shortage of tests and most likely it WASN'T COVID so with all of them living pretty normal going to school going to work going to the store lives, they may have it and transmit it to you.
Everyone thinks they are the exception to the rule. There are no exceptions to the rules of this virus, who wants to be, and is, the only sheriff in town right now.
I'm sorry, zoom call them. But please don't go.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:03 AM on December 9, 2020 [13 favorites]
My brother in law got COVID and was on a ventilator for 9 days at age 37. There were hospital lawyers arguing over his struggling body. We don't know for sure where he got it. It CAN live on surfaces, contrary to what a lot of people in MF have claimed variously here and there. Your friend and their family have not gotten a positive ID for COVID bc when that telehealth nurse "diagnosed" them there was a shortage of tests and most likely it WASN'T COVID so with all of them living pretty normal going to school going to work going to the store lives, they may have it and transmit it to you.
Everyone thinks they are the exception to the rule. There are no exceptions to the rules of this virus, who wants to be, and is, the only sheriff in town right now.
I'm sorry, zoom call them. But please don't go.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:03 AM on December 9, 2020 [13 favorites]
Also, remember that the people who are telling you to go here on MF and elsewhere are gambling with YOUR life, not theirs. So obviously, it's not as important to them. Stay safe.
posted by erattacorrige at 5:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 5:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
I can really empathize--I have been essentially isolating since March as well, and we are under lockdown again where I live, and I am reaching my breaking point. But I think there's a middle ground here: Take a nice Christmas walk in the snow with a friend or something like that instead. Walks with friends are technically banned now where I live, but relatively low-risk, and I think you should probably be doing it regularly, not just on Christmas. Isolation is bad, but you don't have to take the higher risk of eating inside without masks on.
posted by pinochiette at 5:53 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 5:53 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I brought this up in another thread, but the at-capacity hospitals are an issue for me. What if your friend is in a car accident coming to get you, or you both are, and there is no close hospital to take your to? Some might think this is too much to worry about, but accessing care might be a problem.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:58 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:58 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. Please don't post one-word answers with no explanation of reasoning (earlier "no" and "go" now deleted). From the FAQ: "Common reasons for comment removal are wisecracks, derailing/ranting/axegrinding, picking a fight with or heavy chastising of the question asker, debating/chat/arguing among commenters, single word posts (yes, no, DTMFA &c.) and other non-answers" Additionally, If you are bothering to offer advice about taking or not taking an action, please explain why rather than just saying someone else is wrong, with no explanation.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:58 AM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:58 AM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Keep checking in to see if anyone in the husband’s office gets Covid.
The husband may not know this, because of privacy laws.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:59 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
The husband may not know this, because of privacy laws.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:59 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Is it possible at this point for the husband or wife to get an antibody test? This is information I would want if I were in your position.
posted by gudrun at 6:23 AM on December 9, 2020
posted by gudrun at 6:23 AM on December 9, 2020
Revising my previous answer. If they haven’t had an antibodies test to confirm they had COVID then this is too great a risk at a time when cases are peaking.
Context: a coworker of mine and her entire family had what they were completely convinced was COVID back in March. They were diagnosed remotely, they told everyone it’s what they had, they were all sick for weeks. But they have since taken multiple antibodies tests and it’s clear now that they “just” had a terrible case of the flu.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
Context: a coworker of mine and her entire family had what they were completely convinced was COVID back in March. They were diagnosed remotely, they told everyone it’s what they had, they were all sick for weeks. But they have since taken multiple antibodies tests and it’s clear now that they “just” had a terrible case of the flu.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
I know several people who thought they had COVID, but were tested and did not have it. Please don't operate from the assumption that your friend's family has had it. They could pass it on to you, and since you're running errands, you could pass it on to them. One reason the virus spreads is because people think they're the exception to the advice to stay at home. Another is that people think that they're not doing anything risky, when in fact they are (the errands in your case). The virus does not care about your errands being essential.
I sympathize - I really do. I go for walks and go to the cancer center for treatment, and that's it - so I'm also very isolated and it sucks. I will be seeing my family by Zoom for Christmas and my birthday in late December. I hate it. But I'm also worried about whether I'll be able to get the cancer treatment I need because of the medical facilities being full with COVID patients. You are not just risking your own health. The hospital bed you and your friends take will not be available for anyone else.
Please stay home.
posted by FencingGal at 7:30 AM on December 9, 2020 [15 favorites]
I sympathize - I really do. I go for walks and go to the cancer center for treatment, and that's it - so I'm also very isolated and it sucks. I will be seeing my family by Zoom for Christmas and my birthday in late December. I hate it. But I'm also worried about whether I'll be able to get the cancer treatment I need because of the medical facilities being full with COVID patients. You are not just risking your own health. The hospital bed you and your friends take will not be available for anyone else.
Please stay home.
posted by FencingGal at 7:30 AM on December 9, 2020 [15 favorites]
OP, if it were me, I'd absolutely go to this thing. I'm only missing my own Christmas-of-three because my parent's COVID test results were lost at sea and we can't be confident of whether she had it or didn't. And I simply cannot do another month-long hard quar like I did before Thanksgiving; my mental health can't handle it.
The danger, as people are saying, is largely if not absolutely exclusively to yourself, and if that small risk is worth it to you then no jury in the world would convict. (And it is small! Yes, people our age get covid and get long covid and die of covid but statistically mostly do not get any of those things.)
Vaccines are not "around the corner" for healthy young people working from home. They're possibly as far as a year off, though admittedly I expect Canada will do a better job than my own trash nation. We are not almost there; we're smack in the middle AT BEST. You're not a monster for needing, really needing, one single good thing in a 2 year slog of shit.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:40 AM on December 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
The danger, as people are saying, is largely if not absolutely exclusively to yourself, and if that small risk is worth it to you then no jury in the world would convict. (And it is small! Yes, people our age get covid and get long covid and die of covid but statistically mostly do not get any of those things.)
Vaccines are not "around the corner" for healthy young people working from home. They're possibly as far as a year off, though admittedly I expect Canada will do a better job than my own trash nation. We are not almost there; we're smack in the middle AT BEST. You're not a monster for needing, really needing, one single good thing in a 2 year slog of shit.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:40 AM on December 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
Every single one of these questions is a wall of text of "mitigating factors," special circumstances, and tortured data looking for a loophole out of what they already know is the right answer: to stay home. I'm sorry, I know it sucks, but do you want to be the one who catches covid and/or spreads it to someone else? You've been doing so well this year isolating and staying home and keeping the infection rate down. Why risk this now?
I feel like we are getting to the point where even well-meaning and intelligent people are looking for any way they can make it OK to circumvent the practices we know will help flatten the curve. Even if you personally are the only one who gets covid, you don't spread it to anyone, you don't use up any hospital resources, and you don't have long-lasting issues (and those are big ifs), wouldn't you rather not get it, and not roll those dice? OP, you already know the answer. Please stay home.
posted by fiercecupcake at 9:06 AM on December 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
I feel like we are getting to the point where even well-meaning and intelligent people are looking for any way they can make it OK to circumvent the practices we know will help flatten the curve. Even if you personally are the only one who gets covid, you don't spread it to anyone, you don't use up any hospital resources, and you don't have long-lasting issues (and those are big ifs), wouldn't you rather not get it, and not roll those dice? OP, you already know the answer. Please stay home.
posted by fiercecupcake at 9:06 AM on December 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
The danger, as people are saying, is largely if not absolutely exclusively to yourself
I for one was definitely not saying the danger is exclusively to the poster. What I said is that there are lots of ways the poster could get infected, and also ways to pass infection to others who don't seem to be involved in their calculation.
Let's not mischaracterize: No one involved in this story is quarantining, so no one can be sure of their status. In the OP, they write "I only leave the house to do errands and go for walks." Errands to me means food shopping at the very least, and possibly other stops for non-food necessities, plus also going out for walks. So the risk is two-fold, they could be bringing the virus with them to their friends, or bringing it back home to infect new people in your home environment.
and if that small risk is worth it to you then no jury in the world would convict. (And it is small! Yes, people our age get covid and get long covid and die of covid but statistically mostly do not get any of those things.)
...And this is thinking that led to 300,000 deaths in the United States alone. Self-centered, arrogant, ignorant rationalization.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
I for one was definitely not saying the danger is exclusively to the poster. What I said is that there are lots of ways the poster could get infected, and also ways to pass infection to others who don't seem to be involved in their calculation.
Let's not mischaracterize: No one involved in this story is quarantining, so no one can be sure of their status. In the OP, they write "I only leave the house to do errands and go for walks." Errands to me means food shopping at the very least, and possibly other stops for non-food necessities, plus also going out for walks. So the risk is two-fold, they could be bringing the virus with them to their friends, or bringing it back home to infect new people in your home environment.
and if that small risk is worth it to you then no jury in the world would convict. (And it is small! Yes, people our age get covid and get long covid and die of covid but statistically mostly do not get any of those things.)
...And this is thinking that led to 300,000 deaths in the United States alone. Self-centered, arrogant, ignorant rationalization.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
If you live alone, and have not socialized with anyone all year, at the very least you can be confident it's very unlikely that if you do get COVID, you'll pass it on to anyone. At this point it sounds likely that the other people are already immune and probably not going to pass it on to you. I can't think of a situation that is more low risk than this (apart from isolating yourself at home for months on end, which is unfeasible for many people).
All of the current guidelines from the government specify that people who live alone are permitted to join with one other household over the holidays. So if you're asking the government's opinion, then the answer is yes you can go. I'm not sure what other permission you need :) Internet people will always be happy to judge you but just remember we all take risks every day of our lives, whether that's due to potential COVID contagion, driving cars when the environment is burning, having sex when we could get an STI, eating food that could be contaminated. In this situation, I think it's ethically correct to wonder whether you might harm someone else with your behaviour, but it seems like even that is as unlikely as you'll be able to find in any scenario. I think you've earned it as well
posted by winterportage at 9:33 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
All of the current guidelines from the government specify that people who live alone are permitted to join with one other household over the holidays. So if you're asking the government's opinion, then the answer is yes you can go. I'm not sure what other permission you need :) Internet people will always be happy to judge you but just remember we all take risks every day of our lives, whether that's due to potential COVID contagion, driving cars when the environment is burning, having sex when we could get an STI, eating food that could be contaminated. In this situation, I think it's ethically correct to wonder whether you might harm someone else with your behaviour, but it seems like even that is as unlikely as you'll be able to find in any scenario. I think you've earned it as well
posted by winterportage at 9:33 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
You have a choice between high-risk, some-risk, and no risk. There is a vaccine on the horizon, and you’ve kept yourself safe thus far. Please continue to do so and maybe plan for FaceTiming or a zoom call. The cases are only going to increase from here and non-infected today doesn’t mean non-infected on Christmas.
Please keep your options open for next year by staying safe this year.
posted by SillyShepherd at 9:35 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Please keep your options open for next year by staying safe this year.
posted by SillyShepherd at 9:35 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
In your position, I would go and spend Christmas with your friend, unless household mixing was absolutely forbidden locally. It is not no risk, but it is low risk.
posted by plonkee at 9:37 AM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by plonkee at 9:37 AM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm in your same boat with live alone/WFH, and I am feeling the same degree of mental stress you describe. I would do what you describe if I had the option -- unfortunately the people all around me are blatant risk-takers and I don't trust them with my own health. So I'm white-knuckling it alone, drinking a lot to cope with the isolation, living in a low-grade state of depression pretty much all the time, and basically just praying I'm not too physically/mentally fucked up when this is over. If I could do some relatively safe socializing like you describe, I would do it. (I would isolate very strictly for 2 weeks afterward, just to be sure that I wasn't spreading anything asymptomatically.)
This is a harm reduction strategy ... it's not abstinence, it's not the *absolute* safest thing you could possibly do, but it recognizes your mental health need balanced with COVID protections. Even if you do happen to get COVID from them, you are going to isolate afterwards ... and you aren't out and about so you aren't going to become a super-spreader. If we could get all those people who are going to Christmas gatherings of 25-30 people to just limit their gatherings to 10 people, that would make a huge difference. It still wouldn't be perfect behaviour, but it would make a big dent in the problem. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
There are a lot of perfectionists who talk a big game on the internet ... I'm willing to bet most of them aren't fully, perfectly isolated either, but rather are coping with this immense emotional stress by hollering absolutism as a way to seek control over something that's fundamentally out of our hands. That feels good in the moment but is not helpful in the big picture.
Be safe, do what you need to do for your mental health, and continue to isolate as much as possible. Next year will be brilliant!! :)
posted by mccxxiii at 9:38 AM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
This is a harm reduction strategy ... it's not abstinence, it's not the *absolute* safest thing you could possibly do, but it recognizes your mental health need balanced with COVID protections. Even if you do happen to get COVID from them, you are going to isolate afterwards ... and you aren't out and about so you aren't going to become a super-spreader. If we could get all those people who are going to Christmas gatherings of 25-30 people to just limit their gatherings to 10 people, that would make a huge difference. It still wouldn't be perfect behaviour, but it would make a big dent in the problem. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
There are a lot of perfectionists who talk a big game on the internet ... I'm willing to bet most of them aren't fully, perfectly isolated either, but rather are coping with this immense emotional stress by hollering absolutism as a way to seek control over something that's fundamentally out of our hands. That feels good in the moment but is not helpful in the big picture.
Be safe, do what you need to do for your mental health, and continue to isolate as much as possible. Next year will be brilliant!! :)
posted by mccxxiii at 9:38 AM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
When you're thinking out your "if I got sick" worst-case scenario, please don't forget to take into account that if you get sick, you may need treatment from medical providers and EMTs. You may be a point of infection in a hospital that gets other patients or their visitors sick.
Hopefully not; that's one of the Real Bad scenarios. But "if you get sick you'll just ride it out home alone and not put anyone else at risk" is not an outcome you can guarantee and should not be the basis on which you make your decision.
posted by Stacey at 10:16 AM on December 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
Hopefully not; that's one of the Real Bad scenarios. But "if you get sick you'll just ride it out home alone and not put anyone else at risk" is not an outcome you can guarantee and should not be the basis on which you make your decision.
posted by Stacey at 10:16 AM on December 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
One thing to consider is whether you feel staying home alone for the holiday would suck in and of itself (as in, staying home on normal days is just as hard) or whether a significant part of the suckiness is the feeling of missing out on what you think you should get to do and the general sense that other people are getting to do it.
For me - as a person who is normally fine staying alone but also prone to feeling less fine about it if it feels like everyone around me is having a great time and I've been left out - I'd say don't go. There's an end date to this thing; you can't be confident about your friends' status; yes chances of serious infection are low but the potential cost of those is pretty damn high; if in the worst case you do need hospitalization it's going to be at a time when hospitals are likely facing a big wave of cases due to the holidays; and basically, I think those of us who are practically and mentally able to avoid this kind of scenario have a real responsibility to do so.
However, I don't know what your mental state is and what staying home would mean to you.
Any chance you know any other isolating friends who'd be happy to hang out, maybe outdoors, over the holidays?
posted by trig at 10:44 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
For me - as a person who is normally fine staying alone but also prone to feeling less fine about it if it feels like everyone around me is having a great time and I've been left out - I'd say don't go. There's an end date to this thing; you can't be confident about your friends' status; yes chances of serious infection are low but the potential cost of those is pretty damn high; if in the worst case you do need hospitalization it's going to be at a time when hospitals are likely facing a big wave of cases due to the holidays; and basically, I think those of us who are practically and mentally able to avoid this kind of scenario have a real responsibility to do so.
However, I don't know what your mental state is and what staying home would mean to you.
Any chance you know any other isolating friends who'd be happy to hang out, maybe outdoors, over the holidays?
posted by trig at 10:44 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
...And this is thinking that led to 300,000 deaths in the United States alone. Self-centered, arrogant, ignorant rationalization.
I would like to retiterate that while in Canada we are struggling with a second wave (particularly Alberta, which has behaved like the US in many ways), the OP is following good, solid public health advice in contemplating joining with one family, because public health includes mental health.
The OP is in an area where the public health rules state that people who live alone can join with one family over the holidays.
That doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't consider the risks involved or feel that means they are free from change of infection but this policy is pretty balanced and it is based on advice that comes from professionals who also see substance abuse and suicide rates.
Please do not shame a Canadian because you are on your American high horse. While here in Ontario, where the OP is, there have been some kind of stupid policy decisions lately and if the OP were one of the people rushing the malls 48 hours before they closed I would feel differently, it is really, really inappropriate to come in and suggest that if they follow public health advice they are going to create some kind of super spreader event similar to half a country not having mask mandates or unemployment support for months.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:55 AM on December 9, 2020 [41 favorites]
I would like to retiterate that while in Canada we are struggling with a second wave (particularly Alberta, which has behaved like the US in many ways), the OP is following good, solid public health advice in contemplating joining with one family, because public health includes mental health.
The OP is in an area where the public health rules state that people who live alone can join with one family over the holidays.
That doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't consider the risks involved or feel that means they are free from change of infection but this policy is pretty balanced and it is based on advice that comes from professionals who also see substance abuse and suicide rates.
Please do not shame a Canadian because you are on your American high horse. While here in Ontario, where the OP is, there have been some kind of stupid policy decisions lately and if the OP were one of the people rushing the malls 48 hours before they closed I would feel differently, it is really, really inappropriate to come in and suggest that if they follow public health advice they are going to create some kind of super spreader event similar to half a country not having mask mandates or unemployment support for months.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:55 AM on December 9, 2020 [41 favorites]
I don't trust anyone but myself and my husband to know exactly where they have been and what they have been doing. People are delusional. I need two hands to count the number of friends I've spoken to in the last month who say "Oh I/we have totally been in lockdown and not doing anything" only to follow with something like "we went to dinner in Manhattan the last week but it was totally safe because . . . "
Think of how bad the hospitals are expected to be in a few weeks. All of the scientists are saying this winter is going to be harder than we've had yet. The Thanksgiving infections haven't even manifested yet.
I lost someone to this early in April. Please don't go.
posted by archimago at 10:58 AM on December 9, 2020 [13 favorites]
Think of how bad the hospitals are expected to be in a few weeks. All of the scientists are saying this winter is going to be harder than we've had yet. The Thanksgiving infections haven't even manifested yet.
I lost someone to this early in April. Please don't go.
posted by archimago at 10:58 AM on December 9, 2020 [13 favorites]
Toronto has a population of about 3 million people, and yesterday reported about 650 new cases of Covid.
As a whole, Canada is averaging 17 new cases per 100,000 people right now. Ontario is averaging 13.5 new Covid diagnoses per 100,000 people.
Canada as a whole and Ontario specifically have fewer new Covid diagnoses on a daily basis per capita than every single US state except Hawaii right now.
So, yes, we Americans are really good at scolding others about what they should and should not do, but not actually doing it ourselves.
Here's what the City of Toronto is saying about Covid. I'd encourage folks to consider what is happening in different regions and cities when answering these questions.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:46 AM on December 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
As a whole, Canada is averaging 17 new cases per 100,000 people right now. Ontario is averaging 13.5 new Covid diagnoses per 100,000 people.
Canada as a whole and Ontario specifically have fewer new Covid diagnoses on a daily basis per capita than every single US state except Hawaii right now.
So, yes, we Americans are really good at scolding others about what they should and should not do, but not actually doing it ourselves.
Here's what the City of Toronto is saying about Covid. I'd encourage folks to consider what is happening in different regions and cities when answering these questions.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:46 AM on December 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
(Yes to be clear my advice applies specifically to the actual specific OP, based upon their non-hypothetical location and circumstances, and not to literally just any person anywhere asking a question about any gathering. The pandemic is not the same in all places.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:10 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:10 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I don't think the risk is particularly high (we had 553 new cases in Toronto today, which isn't great but the population is almost 3,000,000) so if you rationalize yourself into going nothing bad will likely come of it. If everyone made the same rationalization then covid would spread even more of course, which is why all the public officials have been telling everyone to stay home for Christmas. I wouldn't do it myself but I interact with people at work and my family at home so I haven't been staring at months of solitude.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:28 PM on December 9, 2020
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:28 PM on December 9, 2020
I have been coming back to this thread all day and feeling deeply unsettled and conflicted, both about my own previous answers and about the answers of other posters.
If you're still reading this thread, orange swan -- and honestly I wouldn't blame you if you'd decided to stop -- then I want to apologize for replying in a way that implies there's an obvious, straightforward answer to your question. This is a horrifically traumatic and messy situation and you're clearly doing the best you can to navigate it.
Ultimately, it's up to you and your own private feelings about what risks you are willing to take. I agree with others that in this specific situation, nearly all of the risk is to yourself.
I hope that whatever you ultimately decide about this specific visit, you're able to find ways to safely spend time with friends this winter, even if only in yards and parks.
I wish you all the best.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 1:49 PM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
If you're still reading this thread, orange swan -- and honestly I wouldn't blame you if you'd decided to stop -- then I want to apologize for replying in a way that implies there's an obvious, straightforward answer to your question. This is a horrifically traumatic and messy situation and you're clearly doing the best you can to navigate it.
Ultimately, it's up to you and your own private feelings about what risks you are willing to take. I agree with others that in this specific situation, nearly all of the risk is to yourself.
I hope that whatever you ultimately decide about this specific visit, you're able to find ways to safely spend time with friends this winter, even if only in yards and parks.
I wish you all the best.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 1:49 PM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure if you're isolated entirely because of the pandemic or because of a weak or distant support system, but if the latter is at play, it might be a good idea not to go.
Getting through a mild case of COVID entirely on your own would be less than fun, sure. But what if it's serious? Do you have local people you can rely on, who don't have their own nuclear families or closer friends high on their priority lists? Then there's the matter of ending up with long COVID; the long-term effects of this are the sort of things that would really thwart most peoples' attempts to maintain or build a social network. Chronic illness isn't fun or relatable, and having people reliably in one's life requires being at least one of those things much of the time. The risks here are a lot different than they are for people who have more people in their lives to begin with, and it's important to be honest about that.
Sure, that might sound like catastrophizing, but it's something that has the risk of making your world even smaller (irreparably so) that it might be right now. No, it isn't going to be easy getting through the rest of the pandemic with near-intractable isolation. Yes, continuing your isolation brings its own risks, including that of simply becoming too fucked-up to ever be able to connect with people again, especially new people who'll run if you don't have a cheery back-story. But you'll survive. Sort of.
posted by blerghamot at 4:29 PM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
Getting through a mild case of COVID entirely on your own would be less than fun, sure. But what if it's serious? Do you have local people you can rely on, who don't have their own nuclear families or closer friends high on their priority lists? Then there's the matter of ending up with long COVID; the long-term effects of this are the sort of things that would really thwart most peoples' attempts to maintain or build a social network. Chronic illness isn't fun or relatable, and having people reliably in one's life requires being at least one of those things much of the time. The risks here are a lot different than they are for people who have more people in their lives to begin with, and it's important to be honest about that.
Sure, that might sound like catastrophizing, but it's something that has the risk of making your world even smaller (irreparably so) that it might be right now. No, it isn't going to be easy getting through the rest of the pandemic with near-intractable isolation. Yes, continuing your isolation brings its own risks, including that of simply becoming too fucked-up to ever be able to connect with people again, especially new people who'll run if you don't have a cheery back-story. But you'll survive. Sort of.
posted by blerghamot at 4:29 PM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
If you do get a symptomatic case of Covid, how will you care for yourself?
posted by QuakerMel at 6:54 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by QuakerMel at 6:54 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, if staying at home was just going to be a day or two of feeling a bit sucky about one crap Christmas, I'd stay at home.
I'm going to second this because most everyone is going to have a crap Christmas in one way or another, myself included, but at this point I've already had a solo St. Patrick's Day, Easter, birthday, Mother's Day, Fourth of July, Halloween and Thanksgiving, so what's another one. I can deal with it.
No, it isn't going to be easy getting through the rest of the pandemic with near-intractable isolation. Yes, continuing your isolation brings its own risks, including that of simply becoming too fucked-up to ever be able to connect with people again, especially new people who'll run if you don't have a cheery back-story. But you'll survive. Sort of.
Yeah, this. The risks of everything are just too freaking high to rationalize "but my mental health!" over death, permanent(?) disablement, others being infected, others being infected right now at the worst time to do so, etc. Even if it's gonna be what, another 4-8 months before you and I can get vaccinated and we're just over the halfway mark of hell, no matter how lonely you are, it can't be worth the worse consequences that might happen from it. Do you want to regret for the rest of your life that you just had to see people and then ruined your life? Or led to the end of someone else's life?
There really isn't a way to make this officially safe enough that medical professionals would give you the thumbs up to do it. Virtually no one is quarantining enough to meet up with someone else safely. And you say that this seems safer compared to the family COVID-fest that you'll be missing--well, technically yes, but not that much safer with a stealth virus. I guess to me it sounds like being locked in a cage with a horde of angry, hungry tigers vs. being locked in a cage with those tigers while asleep. Just because things seem quieter now doesn't mean it'll stay that way.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:09 PM on December 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm going to second this because most everyone is going to have a crap Christmas in one way or another, myself included, but at this point I've already had a solo St. Patrick's Day, Easter, birthday, Mother's Day, Fourth of July, Halloween and Thanksgiving, so what's another one. I can deal with it.
No, it isn't going to be easy getting through the rest of the pandemic with near-intractable isolation. Yes, continuing your isolation brings its own risks, including that of simply becoming too fucked-up to ever be able to connect with people again, especially new people who'll run if you don't have a cheery back-story. But you'll survive. Sort of.
Yeah, this. The risks of everything are just too freaking high to rationalize "but my mental health!" over death, permanent(?) disablement, others being infected, others being infected right now at the worst time to do so, etc. Even if it's gonna be what, another 4-8 months before you and I can get vaccinated and we're just over the halfway mark of hell, no matter how lonely you are, it can't be worth the worse consequences that might happen from it. Do you want to regret for the rest of your life that you just had to see people and then ruined your life? Or led to the end of someone else's life?
There really isn't a way to make this officially safe enough that medical professionals would give you the thumbs up to do it. Virtually no one is quarantining enough to meet up with someone else safely. And you say that this seems safer compared to the family COVID-fest that you'll be missing--well, technically yes, but not that much safer with a stealth virus. I guess to me it sounds like being locked in a cage with a horde of angry, hungry tigers vs. being locked in a cage with those tigers while asleep. Just because things seem quieter now doesn't mean it'll stay that way.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:09 PM on December 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
What worries me is your friends' insistence that they've already had COVID without any evidence. This indicates that they're probably not being as careful as they could, as they will be assuming they have some degree of immunity.
posted by daybeforetheday at 12:05 PM on December 14, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by daybeforetheday at 12:05 PM on December 14, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I did not go to my friend's place for Christmas. My mother and sister came down to Toronto to drop off my presents and to pick up the ones I had prepared for my family, and though they did come in the house for just long enough to watch me open my Christmas stocking, we remained masked the entire time and were 6' apart most of the time.
Then, on Christmas morning, I lit the fireplace, made myself a cappucino, and opened my presents in my living room by myself while my sociopathic tenants had one of their regular yelling matches in the basement apartment one floor down. Good times.
Thanks, everyone, for your advice and concern.
posted by orange swan at 12:04 PM on January 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
Then, on Christmas morning, I lit the fireplace, made myself a cappucino, and opened my presents in my living room by myself while my sociopathic tenants had one of their regular yelling matches in the basement apartment one floor down. Good times.
Thanks, everyone, for your advice and concern.
posted by orange swan at 12:04 PM on January 14, 2021 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by seemoorglass at 8:07 PM on December 8, 2020 [19 favorites]