What to do when your family member is being COVID reckless?
December 2, 2020 7:19 AM Subscribe
Our healthy, active but elderly and still at-risk dad is really pushing it with social activities. He wants to go to a big dinner party next week, but that means my sister wants to cancel Christmas because she feels he might spread COVID (and she feels like this is a way to incentivize not going to the party.) Now he is upset and feels we don’t understand why this dinner party so important to him and that we are ganging up on him as a family. How do we handle this with my dad that won’t ruin everything?
My dad is a very stubborn guy. Super social person. Lives with my mom who is also higher risk. She gets bronchitis easily. Dad has diabetes. They both are in their 60s and 70s and live in the south.
My dad has been suffering with boredom and loneliness. I won’t get into my parents relationship, but they get on each other’s nerves at the very least. My dad has been retired for a year now and work is his main purpose in life it seems. He truly enjoys it. Before the pandemic, he volunteered to be the board president of a org that helps victims of abuse. He finds it very important, which I understand.
My mom and sister and I have been frustrated with him though, because while we stay at home and cancel our social events, dad has still been going to church and Bible study and having one on one coffee with people. It feeds his soul, I get it. We all had a long heart to heart where my sister cried and begged him to please try to do less riskier activities, because we don’t want to lose our parents to COVID. He felt super bad and I know he loves his family above all, but it’s like he can’t get these social blinders off. His argument was that he will try, he’s been wearing a mask most of the time, and people around (at church!) have gotten COVID even doing the right precautions and all of them have survived. We think this is moot but whatever. We can’t argue forever. We said that if he chooses to take the risk, that’s fine. But he lives with mom and mom is very scared. So it’s not fair to her.
We thought the convo was over because our dad had cut back on social activities. But then... the volunteer org and board is having a big fundraiser dinner party next week. Dad says as board president, this is very important and he must go. Not many people take the virus seriously where they live, so of course they would still have the party despite the numbers. Dad said if they aren’t cancelling it, and people will where masks when they’re not eating, and try and take precautions, it will be fine.
Mom and my sister are super upset. This seems more risky than other activities. It’s indoors too. My dad is upset that we don’t understand how important this is to him. I’m honestly trying to be sympathetic but it’s hard. My sister decided to cancel Christmas (they were going to drive to Atlanta for it) although my dad argued that it will be 14 days until then so it would be fine.
My sister and I are at our wits end about this. Our mom is very upset and dad is upset and we have tried different ways to talk to him about this. We can’t force him to do anything. We know he loves us all very much, but it feels like he’s prioritizing his volunteer board over himself and his family. I understand he feels like he has purpose through the board. But...sigh. He wrote us a letter last week apologizing for being stubborn and saying how much he loved us, but death is inevitable and he wants us to not be worried for him. BUT DAMN it’s really hard not to and for my mom!!
How should we handle this? Beyond canceling Christmas, we just don’t know. We are afraid the risky behavior will continue. Should we ask our mom to move in with our sister where it’s less risky? Just abandon dad on this? That feels...awful. Ugh. Any advice is appreciated.
My dad is a very stubborn guy. Super social person. Lives with my mom who is also higher risk. She gets bronchitis easily. Dad has diabetes. They both are in their 60s and 70s and live in the south.
My dad has been suffering with boredom and loneliness. I won’t get into my parents relationship, but they get on each other’s nerves at the very least. My dad has been retired for a year now and work is his main purpose in life it seems. He truly enjoys it. Before the pandemic, he volunteered to be the board president of a org that helps victims of abuse. He finds it very important, which I understand.
My mom and sister and I have been frustrated with him though, because while we stay at home and cancel our social events, dad has still been going to church and Bible study and having one on one coffee with people. It feeds his soul, I get it. We all had a long heart to heart where my sister cried and begged him to please try to do less riskier activities, because we don’t want to lose our parents to COVID. He felt super bad and I know he loves his family above all, but it’s like he can’t get these social blinders off. His argument was that he will try, he’s been wearing a mask most of the time, and people around (at church!) have gotten COVID even doing the right precautions and all of them have survived. We think this is moot but whatever. We can’t argue forever. We said that if he chooses to take the risk, that’s fine. But he lives with mom and mom is very scared. So it’s not fair to her.
We thought the convo was over because our dad had cut back on social activities. But then... the volunteer org and board is having a big fundraiser dinner party next week. Dad says as board president, this is very important and he must go. Not many people take the virus seriously where they live, so of course they would still have the party despite the numbers. Dad said if they aren’t cancelling it, and people will where masks when they’re not eating, and try and take precautions, it will be fine.
Mom and my sister are super upset. This seems more risky than other activities. It’s indoors too. My dad is upset that we don’t understand how important this is to him. I’m honestly trying to be sympathetic but it’s hard. My sister decided to cancel Christmas (they were going to drive to Atlanta for it) although my dad argued that it will be 14 days until then so it would be fine.
My sister and I are at our wits end about this. Our mom is very upset and dad is upset and we have tried different ways to talk to him about this. We can’t force him to do anything. We know he loves us all very much, but it feels like he’s prioritizing his volunteer board over himself and his family. I understand he feels like he has purpose through the board. But...sigh. He wrote us a letter last week apologizing for being stubborn and saying how much he loved us, but death is inevitable and he wants us to not be worried for him. BUT DAMN it’s really hard not to and for my mom!!
How should we handle this? Beyond canceling Christmas, we just don’t know. We are afraid the risky behavior will continue. Should we ask our mom to move in with our sister where it’s less risky? Just abandon dad on this? That feels...awful. Ugh. Any advice is appreciated.
Response by poster: Also, are we the unreasonable ones? Sometimes we get a nagging feeling that we are based on my dad’s strong reactions (and usually, he’s just a “ok whatever let’s go with everyone’s flow on this one if you all find it important” kind of person). Maybe we are doing too much. And then my sister reminds me that these are unprecedented times, so no. I just...this all sucks.
posted by buttonedup at 7:27 AM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by buttonedup at 7:27 AM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is a really hard situation, but I think the first thing to acknowledge is that you have done a lot and you are continuing to talk about it. The fact that you can't solve it is also really difficult, but it's a fact.
So - here's the thing. These are your parents, and this is their relationship.
You cannot solve their problems for them. You've given your advice and your opinion. I think you could give your mother the option to move, sure, even encourage her to do so at least for 14 days after this super spreader friendly event. And I think cancelling in-person Christmas is a wise thing to do in general, not just for punitive reasons.
For the record, I'm with you, especially since your parents are young enough to have great years ahead of them, and are also at risk. We know a vaccine is coming and people need to hang on for 6-12 more months depending on where they are and how distribution happens in their area. But that's not forever.
However, you cannot manage your parents' relationship or your dad's actions. They are fully functional adults.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2020 [24 favorites]
So - here's the thing. These are your parents, and this is their relationship.
You cannot solve their problems for them. You've given your advice and your opinion. I think you could give your mother the option to move, sure, even encourage her to do so at least for 14 days after this super spreader friendly event. And I think cancelling in-person Christmas is a wise thing to do in general, not just for punitive reasons.
For the record, I'm with you, especially since your parents are young enough to have great years ahead of them, and are also at risk. We know a vaccine is coming and people need to hang on for 6-12 more months depending on where they are and how distribution happens in their area. But that's not forever.
However, you cannot manage your parents' relationship or your dad's actions. They are fully functional adults.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2020 [24 favorites]
seanmpuckett is correct.
posted by terrapin at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by terrapin at 7:30 AM on December 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
You are not unreasonable. I live in Atlanta and people in the outskirts especially, but even in the actual city, are being incredibly stupid and flippant, and numbers are rising -- if your dad gets sick, or gets your mom sick, there may not be a hospital bed for either of them and that is a fact.
If this dinner means so much to him, if he will endanger your mom for it, then your mom can go stay with your sister for two weeks til he clears quarantine. If he chooses to not quarantine after this oh so special event, then he can live alone for a while.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:32 AM on December 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
If this dinner means so much to him, if he will endanger your mom for it, then your mom can go stay with your sister for two weeks til he clears quarantine. If he chooses to not quarantine after this oh so special event, then he can live alone for a while.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:32 AM on December 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
Is the dinner on the weekend of Dec 4/5 or 11/12? The reason I ask is because gathering during the post thanksgiving surge will be really bad but Dec 11/12 may be slightly better (though not a ton)
Your dad is going to make his own choices and as an adult he is allowed to do that. Like you said though, it’s not fair to your mom. You can make your own choices (Christmas etc. though as he pointed out, it will be more than 14 days after and you’d have firmer ground to stand on if your arguments were just on the science). However, once you’ve made your own choices about visiting, this is really between your mom and your dad. You can invite your mom to come stay with you. You can ASK your dad to stay home or wear a KN95 mask the whole time and abstain from eating and drinking, but past that there isn’t much you can do.
posted by raccoon409 at 7:32 AM on December 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Your dad is going to make his own choices and as an adult he is allowed to do that. Like you said though, it’s not fair to your mom. You can make your own choices (Christmas etc. though as he pointed out, it will be more than 14 days after and you’d have firmer ground to stand on if your arguments were just on the science). However, once you’ve made your own choices about visiting, this is really between your mom and your dad. You can invite your mom to come stay with you. You can ASK your dad to stay home or wear a KN95 mask the whole time and abstain from eating and drinking, but past that there isn’t much you can do.
posted by raccoon409 at 7:32 AM on December 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
And just to add - my parents made a very risky health decision a few years ago. My dad had had an aneurysm and was at a very heightened risk for another one or a stroke, and they got on a cruise ship for 30 days. It's really hard. I shortened my emotional statement to "I wish you wouldn't. And I'm not flying to Panama to collect you if something bad happens.* And it really, really upsets me that you're going. And I'm not talking about it any more."
They went. They are adults.
* I probably would have.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:33 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
They went. They are adults.
* I probably would have.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:33 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
This is very straightforward. It does not need to be about changing your Dad's behavior. Don't make it about your Dad's behavior or pressuring him. It's about you behaving appropriately. It's about your sister behaving appropriately.
It's not appropriate for people to be gathering with family members this Christmas. No one should be doing that. Your dad can do whatever he wants, but you and your sister should observe appropriate COVID restrictions, and that means not gathering for Christmas.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:35 AM on December 2, 2020 [68 favorites]
It's not appropriate for people to be gathering with family members this Christmas. No one should be doing that. Your dad can do whatever he wants, but you and your sister should observe appropriate COVID restrictions, and that means not gathering for Christmas.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:35 AM on December 2, 2020 [68 favorites]
This sounds really upsetting and frustrating. I don't think you are overreacting -- your dad is doing incredibly risky things that put his own and others' lives at risk -- but I think you do have to reconcile yourself to the fact that you can't stop him or convince him otherwise. I mean, you've tried. If the very real prospect of his actions causing his own death or his wife's death isn't motivating to him, I don't know that anything will be. I assume he'll come around if/when someone close to him dies or is seriously stricken, and not before. Which sucks, but again: you can't do much about it.
So here's what you've got to keep in mind: unfortunately, you can't change your dad's behavior here. He gets to decide what he does. You also can't control his feelings -- if it upsets him that other people aren't cheerfully going along with his risky behavior, that's on him to deal with, not on you.
The good news is that the rest of the family -- mom, sister, you -- have choices about how to protect yourselves, and you can support each other. If your mom can move in with your sister for a while, that seems like a good option -- but remember, that's her choice too, and you can't make it for her. Cancelling an in-person Christmas makes a lot of sense at this point, even if your dad weren't behaving in a risky manner. Just do what you need to do to keep yourself safe, recognize that you can't control others' actions, and don't take responsibility for your dad's feelings. You can empathize with him about the fact that COVID sucks for everyone, while continuing to do what you need to do to be safe.
posted by ourobouros at 7:37 AM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
So here's what you've got to keep in mind: unfortunately, you can't change your dad's behavior here. He gets to decide what he does. You also can't control his feelings -- if it upsets him that other people aren't cheerfully going along with his risky behavior, that's on him to deal with, not on you.
The good news is that the rest of the family -- mom, sister, you -- have choices about how to protect yourselves, and you can support each other. If your mom can move in with your sister for a while, that seems like a good option -- but remember, that's her choice too, and you can't make it for her. Cancelling an in-person Christmas makes a lot of sense at this point, even if your dad weren't behaving in a risky manner. Just do what you need to do to keep yourself safe, recognize that you can't control others' actions, and don't take responsibility for your dad's feelings. You can empathize with him about the fact that COVID sucks for everyone, while continuing to do what you need to do to be safe.
posted by ourobouros at 7:37 AM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
He wrote us a letter last week apologizing for being stubborn and saying how much he loved us, but death is inevitable and he wants us to not be worried for him.
This is typical for those in my circle of friends and family who are acting recklessly: they focus on the consequences for themselves and ignore the consequences for others. He is saying that he would rather die than not go out, and that would be fine, if it was only about him. But it isn't about him, it isn't even just about your family or your mother, it's about all of us. As someone who cares for others and chairs a charity that helps others, he should know better. But he is hardly the only person who thinks that way.
I think it is really important to frame it that way when you discuss it. Give him a sense of responsibility towards others. This disease knows no class or race, but the cure does. The President survived because he was the president. The waiters at that event don't have access to presidential healthcare. Those victims of abuse probably don't either. I have no idea what you or your family does for a living, but if you are in contact with vulnerable people in any function, you should keep your activities to a minimum.
Also acknowledge that this is hard, specially for people who are extroverted and need human contact. It's terrible. But it will end. They should postpone their event till after the vaccine has arrived. That would be responsible, and caring. I am on the board of an organisation where we cancelled an event where the Queen was attending. It was hard to do, but it was the right thing to do.
Finally, what I am doing with regards to those people who have completely lost their mind during corona is to limit my interactions with them while it is going on. My reasoning is that this will end, and then I can repair the relationships. One friend has already returned from her momentary insanity and we go for socially distanced walks where we talk about why she felt that way. It's good, we're friends for life.
This is obviously much harder for your mother -- could she live with you or your sister until your dad recovers?
posted by mumimor at 7:45 AM on December 2, 2020 [24 favorites]
This is typical for those in my circle of friends and family who are acting recklessly: they focus on the consequences for themselves and ignore the consequences for others. He is saying that he would rather die than not go out, and that would be fine, if it was only about him. But it isn't about him, it isn't even just about your family or your mother, it's about all of us. As someone who cares for others and chairs a charity that helps others, he should know better. But he is hardly the only person who thinks that way.
I think it is really important to frame it that way when you discuss it. Give him a sense of responsibility towards others. This disease knows no class or race, but the cure does. The President survived because he was the president. The waiters at that event don't have access to presidential healthcare. Those victims of abuse probably don't either. I have no idea what you or your family does for a living, but if you are in contact with vulnerable people in any function, you should keep your activities to a minimum.
Also acknowledge that this is hard, specially for people who are extroverted and need human contact. It's terrible. But it will end. They should postpone their event till after the vaccine has arrived. That would be responsible, and caring. I am on the board of an organisation where we cancelled an event where the Queen was attending. It was hard to do, but it was the right thing to do.
Finally, what I am doing with regards to those people who have completely lost their mind during corona is to limit my interactions with them while it is going on. My reasoning is that this will end, and then I can repair the relationships. One friend has already returned from her momentary insanity and we go for socially distanced walks where we talk about why she felt that way. It's good, we're friends for life.
This is obviously much harder for your mother -- could she live with you or your sister until your dad recovers?
posted by mumimor at 7:45 AM on December 2, 2020 [24 favorites]
Response by poster: Yeah, we were already hesitant on holding christmas, but my dad was so bummed that we couldn’t do thanksgiving that he was very excited about Christmas. I live several states away so I decided I wasn’t seeing them until late next year.
The party will be held the night of the 8th.
Sigh, I appreciate everyone’s advice and reminder that we don’t have control here beyond ourselves. It just makes my sister and I really upset. We called this morning and just cried to each other thinking about the possibilities of what could happen to them. It sucks and it’s stupid. We asked our dad to consider staying in a hotel after the party for two weeks. He said he will consider it but is focused on organizing this party. He made a comment that he wouldn’t feel the need to be social if his kids lived in the same city as him and we could all be together. Sigh. My sister will talk to mom about coming to stay with her.
I truly hope nothing bad happens.
posted by buttonedup at 7:48 AM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
The party will be held the night of the 8th.
Sigh, I appreciate everyone’s advice and reminder that we don’t have control here beyond ourselves. It just makes my sister and I really upset. We called this morning and just cried to each other thinking about the possibilities of what could happen to them. It sucks and it’s stupid. We asked our dad to consider staying in a hotel after the party for two weeks. He said he will consider it but is focused on organizing this party. He made a comment that he wouldn’t feel the need to be social if his kids lived in the same city as him and we could all be together. Sigh. My sister will talk to mom about coming to stay with her.
I truly hope nothing bad happens.
posted by buttonedup at 7:48 AM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
He made a comment that he wouldn’t feel the need to be social if his kids lived in the same city as him and we could all be together.
That...sucks. That's pretty passive aggressive. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:54 AM on December 2, 2020 [51 favorites]
That...sucks. That's pretty passive aggressive. I'm sorry you're dealing with this.
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:54 AM on December 2, 2020 [51 favorites]
It's an unpopular opinion in this thread, but...
IF your sister was planning to hold family Christmas (and you were OK with it for whatever reason) before she found out about this dinner...
AND if your dad is correct that he could quarantine for 14 days or get a COVID test between the dinner and family Christmas, effectively removing the possibility of passing the risk on to anybody else through that event...
then yes, it does seem a little manipulative and punitive to cancel the previously scheduled get-together just because he's insisting on attending this dinner. Not saying canceling family Christmas isn't a good idea anyway! Maybe you were all guilty of undue risk-taking in planning it. But if I were your dad, I would likely update away from "family wants reasonable science-based precautions" and toward "family is making random subjective fear-based threats" based on this situation.
Why not just recommend that he get an airBNB for a week after the dinner, then a COVID test, then rejoin your mom at home?
posted by Bardolph at 7:55 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
IF your sister was planning to hold family Christmas (and you were OK with it for whatever reason) before she found out about this dinner...
AND if your dad is correct that he could quarantine for 14 days or get a COVID test between the dinner and family Christmas, effectively removing the possibility of passing the risk on to anybody else through that event...
then yes, it does seem a little manipulative and punitive to cancel the previously scheduled get-together just because he's insisting on attending this dinner. Not saying canceling family Christmas isn't a good idea anyway! Maybe you were all guilty of undue risk-taking in planning it. But if I were your dad, I would likely update away from "family wants reasonable science-based precautions" and toward "family is making random subjective fear-based threats" based on this situation.
Why not just recommend that he get an airBNB for a week after the dinner, then a COVID test, then rejoin your mom at home?
posted by Bardolph at 7:55 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
Also, are we the unreasonable ones?
Not in regards to your father. He's being wildly inappropriate, and should be banned from any family gathering if he goes to the dinner party.
That said, I'm not sure you aren't being inappropriate by holding a family Christmas gathering, too. Unless you can absolutely guarantee that no one else in your family runs a risk of being exposed within a week or two before the family christmas gathering, I'm thinking you really should cancel it outright.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:06 AM on December 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
Not in regards to your father. He's being wildly inappropriate, and should be banned from any family gathering if he goes to the dinner party.
That said, I'm not sure you aren't being inappropriate by holding a family Christmas gathering, too. Unless you can absolutely guarantee that no one else in your family runs a risk of being exposed within a week or two before the family christmas gathering, I'm thinking you really should cancel it outright.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:06 AM on December 2, 2020 [16 favorites]
I wish people understood how long it is if you lose your partner and you're still going to be alive for 10-20-30 years. My mom is coming up on 2 years alone, and I'm pretty sure they've been the longest two years of her life.
But if that won't penetrate for your father, I don't know what will.
You can't control anyone's behavior full stop. What you can do is shut down your own events and lead by example. Will they push back? Yes. Will it suck? Yes. My partner's mom was SO MAD we were not coming to her house for Thanksgiving or Christmas. But she is being extremely unsafe and going out to bars/traveling/etc. and it's just... maddening.
I can't control a grown woman, but my partner and I are united on not participating. We'll have missed my partner's birthday in November, Thanksgiving and Christmas... it sucks... but this is what we have to do to get through this.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:09 AM on December 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
But if that won't penetrate for your father, I don't know what will.
You can't control anyone's behavior full stop. What you can do is shut down your own events and lead by example. Will they push back? Yes. Will it suck? Yes. My partner's mom was SO MAD we were not coming to her house for Thanksgiving or Christmas. But she is being extremely unsafe and going out to bars/traveling/etc. and it's just... maddening.
I can't control a grown woman, but my partner and I are united on not participating. We'll have missed my partner's birthday in November, Thanksgiving and Christmas... it sucks... but this is what we have to do to get through this.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:09 AM on December 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
Yes, your dad is being reckless, but I can see where the fact that you guys have planned a get-together for Christmas might make it seem to him that you are setting arbitrary rules preventing him from doing what he thinks is important. If you are taking COVID seriously, you should not be planning a family Christmas anyway.
Aside from that, nthing that he is an adult and you can't tell him what to do. Your sister can offer your mom a place to stay if she feels unsafe staying with him. But really, that's it. It sucks, and I'm sorry.
posted by FencingGal at 8:20 AM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Aside from that, nthing that he is an adult and you can't tell him what to do. Your sister can offer your mom a place to stay if she feels unsafe staying with him. But really, that's it. It sucks, and I'm sorry.
posted by FencingGal at 8:20 AM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
As a note: for elderly people, active social relationships also have a measurable effect on physical morbidity and mortality, as does self-perceived subjective social status (of the kind your dad is trying to manage by appearing as president at this dinner).
None of that means your dad is correct to attend, and it especially doesn't give him the right to not take precautions with your mom afterward. But as you think through the negotiation and/or remediation plans, it's worth approaching this as a problem of real, complex tradeoffs between competing sets of health risks and benefits, rather than one side's quixotic fancy vs. the other side's hard science.
posted by Bardolph at 8:22 AM on December 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
None of that means your dad is correct to attend, and it especially doesn't give him the right to not take precautions with your mom afterward. But as you think through the negotiation and/or remediation plans, it's worth approaching this as a problem of real, complex tradeoffs between competing sets of health risks and benefits, rather than one side's quixotic fancy vs. the other side's hard science.
posted by Bardolph at 8:22 AM on December 2, 2020 [9 favorites]
I would be working on getting your mom to move out indefinitely. And physically shunning having any contact with your father specifically because of this. If he has to go see other people all the time, then he can't see his family.
I'm going to pass this on to you from the Washington Post:
After months of feeling trapped amid coronavirus restrictions in Michigan, the two had let their guard down: Shortly before they fell ill in November, they visited a restaurant where people weren’t wearing masks and were walking around among tables.
The McWaters, like many others, had developed an attitude of “I want to get out and live my life, and if I get covid, so be it,” Sisk said.
“But I can tell you after they got covid, they were both extremely regretful because they didn’t really take their own words to heart that it would actually take their lives,” she said.
Shortly before he died, LD told Sisk that he wished other people understood how excruciatingly painful the symptoms of the disease caused by the virus were. He was completely different from his grinning self of the day before, when he assured his daughter that he would overcome the virus."
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:35 AM on December 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
I'm going to pass this on to you from the Washington Post:
After months of feeling trapped amid coronavirus restrictions in Michigan, the two had let their guard down: Shortly before they fell ill in November, they visited a restaurant where people weren’t wearing masks and were walking around among tables.
The McWaters, like many others, had developed an attitude of “I want to get out and live my life, and if I get covid, so be it,” Sisk said.
“But I can tell you after they got covid, they were both extremely regretful because they didn’t really take their own words to heart that it would actually take their lives,” she said.
Shortly before he died, LD told Sisk that he wished other people understood how excruciatingly painful the symptoms of the disease caused by the virus were. He was completely different from his grinning self of the day before, when he assured his daughter that he would overcome the virus."
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:35 AM on December 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
I found this personal story very moving about what happens when everyone has the best of intentions and then Covid catches up to them. Warning, it's a harrowing read. Maybe send this to your Dad and tell him, "this is my fear but you are responsible for your own actions." As President of the Board, he actually has a responsibility to set social norms for everyone else. This year will be a blip on the long line of history but incredibly painful, personally, if you lose someone to this illness. But, you know this. Dads can be stubborn. They are raised and enculturated to be so. Moms and wives are raised and enculturated to abide by their stubbornness. Offering her a place to stay, if she wants, should your father choose to behave recklessly would be a mercy. But...I don't feel like your father, even if he does this dinner and quarantines himself for a week, will be "good" the rest of the time. Do you?
posted by amanda at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by amanda at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, a quick update. Dad said he will not stay in a hotel or Airbnb after the party. Somehow he’s changed his mind from considering it to thinking it’s unreasonable because he’d be uncomfortable there. He would pay for my mom to stay at a hotel. I am guessing he got annoyed at my mom saying something (she’s been very vocal understandably) from what I am hearing from her and my sister, as dad won’t answer his phone now.
I hear y’all about the Christmas gathering, and as mentioned above, it was something my sister was hesitant on hosting. She was only doing it so my dad would be happier, because he’s been missing family. I am not coming. Mom was gonna go. And it’s just my sister, we are a small family. Our agreement was that they all would limit social interactions at least two weeks beforehand in order for them to visit my sister in atlanta. We debated back and forth if we should cancel it, since we cancelled thanksgiving, but my dad asked we not and he would limit any risky social interaction. I think my mom and sister are fed up, so it probably was punishment for my dad partly, and also an opportunity to cancel it without feeling as guilty. Not saying either is right but...at this point of back and forth for the past 6 months with my dad on this, I can understand.
I don’t think there is anything else for us to do here. I appreciate the comments and advice and we’ll continue to talk to our dad with the understanding that we can’t change his mind and social time is important, but that we can’t kill ourselves over trying to get him to do something he doesn’t want to do.
posted by buttonedup at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
I hear y’all about the Christmas gathering, and as mentioned above, it was something my sister was hesitant on hosting. She was only doing it so my dad would be happier, because he’s been missing family. I am not coming. Mom was gonna go. And it’s just my sister, we are a small family. Our agreement was that they all would limit social interactions at least two weeks beforehand in order for them to visit my sister in atlanta. We debated back and forth if we should cancel it, since we cancelled thanksgiving, but my dad asked we not and he would limit any risky social interaction. I think my mom and sister are fed up, so it probably was punishment for my dad partly, and also an opportunity to cancel it without feeling as guilty. Not saying either is right but...at this point of back and forth for the past 6 months with my dad on this, I can understand.
I don’t think there is anything else for us to do here. I appreciate the comments and advice and we’ll continue to talk to our dad with the understanding that we can’t change his mind and social time is important, but that we can’t kill ourselves over trying to get him to do something he doesn’t want to do.
posted by buttonedup at 8:36 AM on December 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
We asked our dad to consider staying in a hotel after the party for two weeks. He said he will consider it but is focused on organizing this party
This means "No, I will not self-quarantine after this party." Book a hotel room for your mom instead. And stay home for Christmas.
This is literal life-or-death stuff here. If your dad wants to risk his own life for a dinner party that's on him, but if you and your mom want to protect yours, that's on you.
posted by ook at 8:37 AM on December 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
This means "No, I will not self-quarantine after this party." Book a hotel room for your mom instead. And stay home for Christmas.
This is literal life-or-death stuff here. If your dad wants to risk his own life for a dinner party that's on him, but if you and your mom want to protect yours, that's on you.
posted by ook at 8:37 AM on December 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
All right, based on your update: your dad is the one who cancelled Christmas by insisting on not modifying his behavior! He doesn't get to be mad about it!
I'm sorry, this is tough.
posted by mskyle at 8:38 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry, this is tough.
posted by mskyle at 8:38 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
I don't think you could trust your father to follow 2 weeks of quarantine. I won't see my mother this season because I know darned well she's gonna run to the store and run to the store and run to the store, for example.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 AM on December 2, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:39 AM on December 2, 2020 [20 favorites]
I missed your followup by -that- much. "my dad asked we not and he would limit any risky social interaction" is your reason for cancelling the Christmas get-together. Your dad is emphatically not limiting risky social interaction.
posted by ook at 8:39 AM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by ook at 8:39 AM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
It might be worth running the risk calculator for COVID for your father's region: you can give him facts about the likelihood that someone present at the dinner will be infectious.
The fact is that the rates of infection are now so much higher across the country than they used to be that activities that might have been safe (if contrary to public health advice) in June just aren't going to be safe now. Show him the statistics?
Best of luck to you, though, this is very hard.
posted by suelac at 8:40 AM on December 2, 2020
The fact is that the rates of infection are now so much higher across the country than they used to be that activities that might have been safe (if contrary to public health advice) in June just aren't going to be safe now. Show him the statistics?
Best of luck to you, though, this is very hard.
posted by suelac at 8:40 AM on December 2, 2020
What about a message along the lines of "Dad, I understand how this is very important to you, and you're willing to take risks with your health in order to continue living the life you desire. You're a grown adult, and that's your choice. But me, sister and mom are not willing to take risks with our health to support your social activities. Just as you need to do what you feel is right for you, we need to do what we feel is right for us during this pandemic".
And then mom moves in with sister, and dad lives by himself while he continues to put himself at risk. Actions have consequences. He knows what actions he needs to do to keep mom in the house, and it's his choice what he does or doesnt do. And obviously, no christmas. That's your sisters choice, and it sounds like she's made it.
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. So so sorry. This is so hard for everyone. There is no easy answer.
posted by cgg at 8:49 AM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
And then mom moves in with sister, and dad lives by himself while he continues to put himself at risk. Actions have consequences. He knows what actions he needs to do to keep mom in the house, and it's his choice what he does or doesnt do. And obviously, no christmas. That's your sisters choice, and it sounds like she's made it.
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. So so sorry. This is so hard for everyone. There is no easy answer.
posted by cgg at 8:49 AM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Why don't you just call the health department and report the party being planned? It sounds like it's against covid regulations (tho I don't know exactly what that entails for their area). Shut it down.
posted by sexyrobot at 8:49 AM on December 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 8:49 AM on December 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
My friend Lisa's mom died after her husband insisted on going out during covid, and your story sounds extremely similar to hers.
I consider it a moral imperative for me to ask you and your sister to listen to the podcast episode linked above; what I heard there has informed every decision I've made since. I predict that you will no longer give a shit about your dad's feelings/reluctance in the face of a serious threat to his and your mother's lives.
I'd also like your dad to listen to it, but that sounds like a harder task. Please, please, protect your mom.
posted by mnemonica at 8:52 AM on December 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
I consider it a moral imperative for me to ask you and your sister to listen to the podcast episode linked above; what I heard there has informed every decision I've made since. I predict that you will no longer give a shit about your dad's feelings/reluctance in the face of a serious threat to his and your mother's lives.
I'd also like your dad to listen to it, but that sounds like a harder task. Please, please, protect your mom.
posted by mnemonica at 8:52 AM on December 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
Should we ask our mom to move in with our sister where it’s less risky? Just abandon dad on this? That feels...awful.Yes, you should absolutely do this.
posted by mnemonica at 8:55 AM on December 2, 2020 [27 favorites]
Not your actual question, but I am just amazed that an organization is going through with a big in-person event. Will there actually be people attending? Every single organization I am associated with has canceled all in-person events until after the vaccine is distributed. If someone did push forward and arrange an event, I don't think there would be much attendance. And this includes weddings and funerals, where there is an enormous pull to be with families. A service organization? That would be a hard "no" accompanied by a donation.
posted by citygirl at 9:01 AM on December 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by citygirl at 9:01 AM on December 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
he would limit any risky social interaction
Just a note that this is classic "weasel wording", and shows that your dad is unfortunately not to be trusted when it comes to risky COVID behavior.
He is not clearly saying "I will quarantine for two weeks", he is giving himself permission to basically do whatever he wants and then claim that whatever he did was "not risky" or "limited", especially if he changed something. As in, "We planned to have 10 of us meet for lunch twice a week, but then we made it 5 of us once a week. SEE!!?? Fewer people, less often, that's limited and less risky, there's no reason we can't have Christmas together!"
I'm sorry, this is really tough. I agree that you should ask your mom if she wants to move in with your sister for a while.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:05 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
Just a note that this is classic "weasel wording", and shows that your dad is unfortunately not to be trusted when it comes to risky COVID behavior.
He is not clearly saying "I will quarantine for two weeks", he is giving himself permission to basically do whatever he wants and then claim that whatever he did was "not risky" or "limited", especially if he changed something. As in, "We planned to have 10 of us meet for lunch twice a week, but then we made it 5 of us once a week. SEE!!?? Fewer people, less often, that's limited and less risky, there's no reason we can't have Christmas together!"
I'm sorry, this is really tough. I agree that you should ask your mom if she wants to move in with your sister for a while.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:05 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
he is upset and feels we don’t understand why this dinner party so important to him
You understand exactly how important it is to him! It's so important to him that he's willing to give up seeing his children for Christmas and living with his wife. That's his choice to make and he made it. Cancel Christmas, help your mom move out or at least stay elsewhere, and I'm really sorry you're dealing with this. It sucks for your dad to rank his family's safety and health so low on his list of priorities, but that's what he's doing: he cares so much about this party that he's okay with either endangering your health or foregoing your company. All you can do is decide which one it is.
posted by babelfish at 9:26 AM on December 2, 2020 [21 favorites]
You understand exactly how important it is to him! It's so important to him that he's willing to give up seeing his children for Christmas and living with his wife. That's his choice to make and he made it. Cancel Christmas, help your mom move out or at least stay elsewhere, and I'm really sorry you're dealing with this. It sucks for your dad to rank his family's safety and health so low on his list of priorities, but that's what he's doing: he cares so much about this party that he's okay with either endangering your health or foregoing your company. All you can do is decide which one it is.
posted by babelfish at 9:26 AM on December 2, 2020 [21 favorites]
Your dad isn’t prioritizing his board. He’s prioritizing himself and his own wants and needs. He’s justifying that it’s okay if he dies, because it’s worth it. Is it worth it if his wife dies, too? He’s being an asshole. Truly. I’m so sorry. It’s like he’s hijacked everyone’s emotions and attention.
Have your mom move in with your sister, and you all have Christmas together, and don’t include him. This is a natural consequence of his behavior. This is not abandoning him. And don’t argue with him anymore. He’s made his priorities clear. Grey rock this guy til he’s willing to learn (if ever).
posted by bluedaisy at 9:27 AM on December 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
Have your mom move in with your sister, and you all have Christmas together, and don’t include him. This is a natural consequence of his behavior. This is not abandoning him. And don’t argue with him anymore. He’s made his priorities clear. Grey rock this guy til he’s willing to learn (if ever).
posted by bluedaisy at 9:27 AM on December 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
Have you and your sister and your mom always revolved around him, accommodating his wants and needs before everyone else’s?
posted by bluedaisy at 9:29 AM on December 2, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 9:29 AM on December 2, 2020 [18 favorites]
He wrote us a letter last week apologizing for being stubborn and saying how much he loved us, but death is inevitable and he wants us to not be worried for him.
HIS death from his own risky behavior isn’t the issue here. It’s the other people he’s putting in danger. I’ve seen a lot of “if I die, I die” rhetoric from people but no one thinks “if I kill all my grandkids and my best friends, oh well” EVEN THOUGH THAT’S ACTUALLY THE DANGER.
I hope he has a fun party with his friends though.
posted by kate blank at 9:32 AM on December 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
HIS death from his own risky behavior isn’t the issue here. It’s the other people he’s putting in danger. I’ve seen a lot of “if I die, I die” rhetoric from people but no one thinks “if I kill all my grandkids and my best friends, oh well” EVEN THOUGH THAT’S ACTUALLY THE DANGER.
I hope he has a fun party with his friends though.
posted by kate blank at 9:32 AM on December 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
The only good news I see here is that the CDC is now saying a 10-day quarantine (or a 7-day with a test) is 95% as good as a 14-day one. A lot more people will do that than two full weeks, which is a huge ask even for someone who has no job or caregiving responsibilities.
Studies of HIV education in the 80s found that the "shock and awe" and shame-based campaigns didn't work. Basically, people who were inclined to respond to them were already more or less practicing safe sex. Those engaging in risky behavior didn't think the messages applied to them, which sounds a lot like your dad. What worked was extraordinary empathy outreach, along the lines of, "I know, it's so uncomfortable and not as sexy. It took me a while to get used to it. But now I do and I feel better about it!" Basically giving someone a path toward better behavior that (crucially) doesn't involve admitting they were wrong.
Frankly, that messaging makes me want to throw up. My parent had cancer surgery right before Thanksgiving and every time I see a person without a mask I want to punch them in the face because people who behave that way prevented me from being able be there when I really, really wanted to be. But radical understanding is the best we have to reach folks who are convinced that the rules and the odds don't apply to them. I would sympathize with your dad. It's incredibly disappointing to cancel fondly anticipated events. The pain of loneliness is real. There's no point in pretending that what we're being asked to do, for the good of society, is a massive upset. All we can do is our best and help others to improve their behavior. It's not all or nothing; it's been demonstrated that most Covid transmission happens at superspreader events so avoiding them, even if you have to replace them with smaller, outdoor, shorter, etc. is a lot better than doing nothing. I really hope things work out and your family comes to terms it can live with.
posted by wnissen at 9:57 AM on December 2, 2020 [18 favorites]
Studies of HIV education in the 80s found that the "shock and awe" and shame-based campaigns didn't work. Basically, people who were inclined to respond to them were already more or less practicing safe sex. Those engaging in risky behavior didn't think the messages applied to them, which sounds a lot like your dad. What worked was extraordinary empathy outreach, along the lines of, "I know, it's so uncomfortable and not as sexy. It took me a while to get used to it. But now I do and I feel better about it!" Basically giving someone a path toward better behavior that (crucially) doesn't involve admitting they were wrong.
Frankly, that messaging makes me want to throw up. My parent had cancer surgery right before Thanksgiving and every time I see a person without a mask I want to punch them in the face because people who behave that way prevented me from being able be there when I really, really wanted to be. But radical understanding is the best we have to reach folks who are convinced that the rules and the odds don't apply to them. I would sympathize with your dad. It's incredibly disappointing to cancel fondly anticipated events. The pain of loneliness is real. There's no point in pretending that what we're being asked to do, for the good of society, is a massive upset. All we can do is our best and help others to improve their behavior. It's not all or nothing; it's been demonstrated that most Covid transmission happens at superspreader events so avoiding them, even if you have to replace them with smaller, outdoor, shorter, etc. is a lot better than doing nothing. I really hope things work out and your family comes to terms it can live with.
posted by wnissen at 9:57 AM on December 2, 2020 [18 favorites]
Lots of people have basically articulated this, but I'll chime in with an actual example. My father-in-law had a hidden infection behind his pacemaker. His pacemaker was actually being pushed out of his body slowly, and of course he was steadily losing heart function. He's in his 70s, but he is quite fragile because of his heart condition. Once the doctors found out that this was happening in early November, they wanted to schedule surgery immediately. But they couldn't because this was all happening in Michigan and hospitals were full and overcrowded. He finally got the surgery on Monday, almost four weeks later. He is lucky to have survived the experience and faces a recovery in complete isolation because of COVID protocols. As others have said, when people make decisions like your father's they are not just gambling with their own lives, but also the lives of others.
posted by Slothrop at 10:00 AM on December 2, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by Slothrop at 10:00 AM on December 2, 2020 [19 favorites]
I'm sorry you're going through this. It doesn't sound like your father is persuadable, but I've found that a some people who frame their excuses around how many people don't die from COVID are willing to rethink their approach when you tell them that it's not just about him or others possibly dying (even though, it is). Because it's true, percentage-wise most people get better. But 20% of the people who catch it need some hospitalization, and that percentage only rises the older you are. Is he comfortable knowing that if he does have to go to the hospital - and there's a 1-in-5 chance that if he catches this, he will - you guys won't be allowed to visit him? That if he gets your mother sick and she has to go to the hospital, she would have to be there all alone?
The thing that stands out the most to me is, he is the Board President of this organization. Unless that's just a paper title (in which case no, he doesn't have to attend), then he actually has the power to insist they change the venue to a safer plan. And it also means he likely played a role in deciding to have this event and all of its logistics in the first place. So it's not a case of oh, he's lonely; or oh, he feels bad but he loves being social. This sounds a lot more like a power dynamic. He's in denial that this is a serious disease, and he is trying to force you guys to accept his worldview so he doesn't have to accept reality, or rethink his own choices.
So I agree that your mom should go to your sister's or to a hotel for 10-14 days after the party, if that's possible, and if you can't trust him to literally stay home during that time, then you were right to cancel the Xmas get-together. But I wouldn't feel sorry for him. This isn't passive stubbornness. To me it sounds like he's choosing this and daring you guys to try and call your bluff.
posted by Mchelly at 10:11 AM on December 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
The thing that stands out the most to me is, he is the Board President of this organization. Unless that's just a paper title (in which case no, he doesn't have to attend), then he actually has the power to insist they change the venue to a safer plan. And it also means he likely played a role in deciding to have this event and all of its logistics in the first place. So it's not a case of oh, he's lonely; or oh, he feels bad but he loves being social. This sounds a lot more like a power dynamic. He's in denial that this is a serious disease, and he is trying to force you guys to accept his worldview so he doesn't have to accept reality, or rethink his own choices.
So I agree that your mom should go to your sister's or to a hotel for 10-14 days after the party, if that's possible, and if you can't trust him to literally stay home during that time, then you were right to cancel the Xmas get-together. But I wouldn't feel sorry for him. This isn't passive stubbornness. To me it sounds like he's choosing this and daring you guys to try and call your bluff.
posted by Mchelly at 10:11 AM on December 2, 2020 [14 favorites]
This is like domestic abuse with the threat of disease. If he escapes COVID this party, he may be be emboldened to attend a possible New Years party. Your mother may also want to consider how she wants to handle life with (or without) your father if he wants to make it a habit of endangering her life.
I'm sorry you're going through this. I've been experiencing a similar scenario with my family but it sounds like the venue had to shut down due to county restrictions.
posted by Seboshin at 10:42 AM on December 2, 2020
I'm sorry you're going through this. I've been experiencing a similar scenario with my family but it sounds like the venue had to shut down due to county restrictions.
posted by Seboshin at 10:42 AM on December 2, 2020
I'm an epidemiologist here to tell you: you're not being selfish. The emotions around these situations are surprising a lot of us out in the world--I think we all expected or hoped our loved ones would be as willing to sacrifice social living as we are, or maybe even more so, and that's turning out to be a tall order. Een among the people in my field, not everyone is willing to scale back as much as professional recommendations suggest... even though they know the risks, they feel a gravitational pull to other people that they feel powerless to resist. I can empathize with all angles of this experience.
How should we handle this?
You do the best you can for yourself, first and foremost. You're the only person you have real control of. Next, you engage in the constant, back-and-forth negotiation with the people around you, testing out what lines of conversation work and don't work, which people are receptive to what messages, and how to stand firm in your convictions while apologizing for the awkwardness of it all. I expect that we'll spend a good amount of the next couple of years trying to untangle the social messes and quandaries that were presented by this pandemic. There will be a lot of social research to come, a lot of ink spilled dissecting the human experience of COVID-19. We'll come out of the process with an expanded toolkit, but at the moment we're just straight up In The Thick Of Things, and we're all allowed to sigh heavily about that.
My nuclear family--10 people total--are all planning to get together later this month. In a single dwelling, in a state where none of them live. My parents are not young people, and they have existing health problems that worry me on their own. I don't trust my brother or his kids enough to expect that they're socially distancing or wearing masks unless prompted by my parents. I say the same about my sister's family, even though she's in the health sciences, too. My mom just had surgery this week, and was happy to report to me that her doctor (in the small, deeply red, deeply COVID-denying southern town where I grew up) said she'd be fine traveling. I bought into this trip in January, and they've all spent the year trying to convince me not to cancel. I'd say I stopped pushing back on any of them going about a month ago, even though there's no way in hell that I'd go myself. They know this. They just... aren't willing to not go. I'll never fully understand it, but we're a close knit family whose members have all lived in far-flung places for the last 20 years or so, so I do understand it a little. To each one's own.
Without penalties or any semblance of local enforcement of quarantine processes, the blame doesn't rest solely on individuals for this quagmire. I'm fuming mad at the local, state, and national government right now. As in, this revealed something about the U.S. that I never expected would be shown true. As in, my employer has approved the visa I need to transfer out of the country. Maybe I will feel like I can come back at some point, but this has been a heck of an alienating year for a lot of folks. Let's all try to take it in stride as best we can in the moment. We'll all be looking back on this period and trying to figure out... a lot of things, for a long time.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2020 [22 favorites]
How should we handle this?
You do the best you can for yourself, first and foremost. You're the only person you have real control of. Next, you engage in the constant, back-and-forth negotiation with the people around you, testing out what lines of conversation work and don't work, which people are receptive to what messages, and how to stand firm in your convictions while apologizing for the awkwardness of it all. I expect that we'll spend a good amount of the next couple of years trying to untangle the social messes and quandaries that were presented by this pandemic. There will be a lot of social research to come, a lot of ink spilled dissecting the human experience of COVID-19. We'll come out of the process with an expanded toolkit, but at the moment we're just straight up In The Thick Of Things, and we're all allowed to sigh heavily about that.
My nuclear family--10 people total--are all planning to get together later this month. In a single dwelling, in a state where none of them live. My parents are not young people, and they have existing health problems that worry me on their own. I don't trust my brother or his kids enough to expect that they're socially distancing or wearing masks unless prompted by my parents. I say the same about my sister's family, even though she's in the health sciences, too. My mom just had surgery this week, and was happy to report to me that her doctor (in the small, deeply red, deeply COVID-denying southern town where I grew up) said she'd be fine traveling. I bought into this trip in January, and they've all spent the year trying to convince me not to cancel. I'd say I stopped pushing back on any of them going about a month ago, even though there's no way in hell that I'd go myself. They know this. They just... aren't willing to not go. I'll never fully understand it, but we're a close knit family whose members have all lived in far-flung places for the last 20 years or so, so I do understand it a little. To each one's own.
Without penalties or any semblance of local enforcement of quarantine processes, the blame doesn't rest solely on individuals for this quagmire. I'm fuming mad at the local, state, and national government right now. As in, this revealed something about the U.S. that I never expected would be shown true. As in, my employer has approved the visa I need to transfer out of the country. Maybe I will feel like I can come back at some point, but this has been a heck of an alienating year for a lot of folks. Let's all try to take it in stride as best we can in the moment. We'll all be looking back on this period and trying to figure out... a lot of things, for a long time.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2020 [22 favorites]
I assume from your parents' ages that you and sister are likely around your 40s, which is still in the low-ish risk of death category, but still an age group that has put thousands of people in long hospital stays that hospitals cannot afford right now, and you would probably also prefer not to do. I would consider flipping the risk factor, since he clearly is fine with taking his own risks, and switch from pleading to flat out saying, "Your behavior is not something I'm willing to expose MY OWN health to."
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:25 AM on December 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:25 AM on December 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
My own reaction in this circumstance has been: accept that my parents are going to do what they’re going to do. I’m not going to try to parent them. I, in return, will be communicating with them via Zoom for the holidays.
posted by sugarbomb at 11:48 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by sugarbomb at 11:48 AM on December 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
It sounds like your dad has a strong desire to maintain his social standing & status in this organization. His need for recognition and status on the board is greater than his fear of getting covid and of conflict with his family.
Thus, I recommend taking actions so that his best way to preserve social status on the board is by NOT going to the party. For example:
- Draft an email to the other members of the board, stating your horror at your dad's action. Describe the ways in which he is acting irresponsibly. Send this email draft to your dad and inform him that you will begin sending it to board members in 24 hours unless he agrees to skip the work party. If he ignores it, send the email to a board member, with your dad CC'ed.
- Draft an op-ed to the local newspaper using your full name and your dad's full name and the organization's name, describing how appalled you are at the situation. Show the draft to your dad, and say you will send it to the newspaper unless he agrees to skip the work party.
- Draft a Facebook post about your dad's decision to go to this party (tagging the organization), and show it to your dad. Inform him that you will be posting this publicly in as many places as you can: yelp, online reviews, etc.
... (you get the idea) ...
Will he be furious? Yes. Is it worth making him furious to save his life and your mom's life and other people's life? You decide.
posted by cheesecake at 12:01 PM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Thus, I recommend taking actions so that his best way to preserve social status on the board is by NOT going to the party. For example:
- Draft an email to the other members of the board, stating your horror at your dad's action. Describe the ways in which he is acting irresponsibly. Send this email draft to your dad and inform him that you will begin sending it to board members in 24 hours unless he agrees to skip the work party. If he ignores it, send the email to a board member, with your dad CC'ed.
- Draft an op-ed to the local newspaper using your full name and your dad's full name and the organization's name, describing how appalled you are at the situation. Show the draft to your dad, and say you will send it to the newspaper unless he agrees to skip the work party.
- Draft a Facebook post about your dad's decision to go to this party (tagging the organization), and show it to your dad. Inform him that you will be posting this publicly in as many places as you can: yelp, online reviews, etc.
... (you get the idea) ...
Will he be furious? Yes. Is it worth making him furious to save his life and your mom's life and other people's life? You decide.
posted by cheesecake at 12:01 PM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
I have one more thing that might actually help. I don't know but this is what I told my dad last night (he and my stepmom have been cautious and careful but winter and the months of inactivity are wearing them down): we don't need to learn to live with Covid; we need to hunker down for just a bit more because the end is in sight. We have vaccines in production. As older folks, your parents may well be on a priority list. The tragedy wouldn't just be dying from Covid; it would be dying from Covid a few weeks before being eligible for a vaccine. So we don't have to live in a restricted way forever, but this next month or so is the most dangerous time that we have to do our best to get through so we can have more freedoms as the vaccines are made available.
This approach comes from this NY Times editorial with a very grim headline but it's actually got a lot of hope in it.
The goal is now no longer to learn to live indefinitely with the virus. It’s to get as many people through the winter as possible without getting sick. Keeping the infection rate low is important, because that’s what will allow us to push the virus into the ground as quickly as possible once we have the vaccine in hand.
A death avoided this winter is a life saved. We are no longer delaying the inevitable.
It’s always been hard to convince people to make good choices when considering sacrifices. Uncertainty around when we’d get an effective vaccine made it even harder. Cutting off in-person interactions for an uncertain stretch of time was excruciating. But it may be more palatable to hunker down if it’s only for a defined period.
This might help you all feel better, too. You're not abandoning your dad. You are protecting yourselves and your mom for this time when Covid is most in our communities and yet when the end is finally in sight. You can't change your dad's behavior, but you can get your mom out of that house and into yours (not just a hotel). And honestly, I wouldn't trust your dad at this point if he says he's not going out and about. Bring your mom into your bubble and be clear but try to be unemotional in telling your dad that he can't risk her life anymore, and you'll be glad to see him post-vaccine.
Good luck. This is really hard. Try to remember that he is an adult man who is making very poor choices, and you all are doing the best you can.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:10 PM on December 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
This approach comes from this NY Times editorial with a very grim headline but it's actually got a lot of hope in it.
The goal is now no longer to learn to live indefinitely with the virus. It’s to get as many people through the winter as possible without getting sick. Keeping the infection rate low is important, because that’s what will allow us to push the virus into the ground as quickly as possible once we have the vaccine in hand.
A death avoided this winter is a life saved. We are no longer delaying the inevitable.
It’s always been hard to convince people to make good choices when considering sacrifices. Uncertainty around when we’d get an effective vaccine made it even harder. Cutting off in-person interactions for an uncertain stretch of time was excruciating. But it may be more palatable to hunker down if it’s only for a defined period.
This might help you all feel better, too. You're not abandoning your dad. You are protecting yourselves and your mom for this time when Covid is most in our communities and yet when the end is finally in sight. You can't change your dad's behavior, but you can get your mom out of that house and into yours (not just a hotel). And honestly, I wouldn't trust your dad at this point if he says he's not going out and about. Bring your mom into your bubble and be clear but try to be unemotional in telling your dad that he can't risk her life anymore, and you'll be glad to see him post-vaccine.
Good luck. This is really hard. Try to remember that he is an adult man who is making very poor choices, and you all are doing the best you can.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:10 PM on December 2, 2020 [10 favorites]
As a Board Member/President and Church member, he has a moral and potentially legal obligation to tell the organizations to Not Have In Person Meetings. It's a way to spread disease. No one can know which meeting or event will have someone present who has Covid; many will not know they are contagious, some think it's not real, etc. The organization could have liability. He's a guy with a sense of Duty, and doing then Right Thing. The Right Thing is to cancel events.
The Right Thing is to not endanger his wife.
I'd cancel any event with him, except short, masked, outdoor one:one meetings. You can cancel with love. Dad, everything I read and learn from knowledgeable people, including scientists, says the responsible thing to do is not meet in person. I/we have made the decision to not meet with people who are engaging in risky behaviors. I/we look forward to seeing you when risks are lower. I miss you so much.
There are alternatives that he may not feel comfortable with, perhaps. Teach him to use Zoom, Skype, or other tools. I get better quality on Skype, and it has captioning, which is helpful. Send him invites to get him used to it. Get him netflix and/or other subscriptions, have watch parties. Distraction and substituting okay behavior for risky behavior is a thing that works.
posted by theora55 at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
The Right Thing is to not endanger his wife.
I'd cancel any event with him, except short, masked, outdoor one:one meetings. You can cancel with love. Dad, everything I read and learn from knowledgeable people, including scientists, says the responsible thing to do is not meet in person. I/we have made the decision to not meet with people who are engaging in risky behaviors. I/we look forward to seeing you when risks are lower. I miss you so much.
There are alternatives that he may not feel comfortable with, perhaps. Teach him to use Zoom, Skype, or other tools. I get better quality on Skype, and it has captioning, which is helpful. Send him invites to get him used to it. Get him netflix and/or other subscriptions, have watch parties. Distraction and substituting okay behavior for risky behavior is a thing that works.
posted by theora55 at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
I also just saw the line about your mom and dad getting on each others' nerves. My guess is she might welcome a break from him. Sounds like it might be better for both of them to have that space, even aside from Covid.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:12 PM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by bluedaisy at 12:12 PM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Your dad is engaging in a risky, selfish behavior that has a high chance of harming and even killing not just himself, but others as well. Let's put this in a different context: how would you feel if your dad was consistently driving drunk? Here's how your question would read:
"My mom and sister and I have been frustrated with him though, because dad has still been driving drunk. We all had a long heart to heart where my sister cried and begged him to stop, because we don’t want to lose our parents to drunk driving. He felt super bad and I know he loves his family above all, but it’s like he can’t. His argument was that he will try, he’s been using Uber most of the time, and people around (at church!) have gotten into drunk driving accidents and all of them have survived."
You would find this level of denial totally unacceptable and you would get your mom to a safer place where she wouldn't be harmed by his behavior.
I'm sorry, your situation sounds awful.
posted by Ndwright at 3:13 PM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
"My mom and sister and I have been frustrated with him though, because dad has still been driving drunk. We all had a long heart to heart where my sister cried and begged him to stop, because we don’t want to lose our parents to drunk driving. He felt super bad and I know he loves his family above all, but it’s like he can’t. His argument was that he will try, he’s been using Uber most of the time, and people around (at church!) have gotten into drunk driving accidents and all of them have survived."
You would find this level of denial totally unacceptable and you would get your mom to a safer place where she wouldn't be harmed by his behavior.
I'm sorry, your situation sounds awful.
posted by Ndwright at 3:13 PM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
It seems ironic in the saddest way that he's president of a board that helps victims of abuse, when refusing to care about putting his spouse at risk is equally a new nasty form of abuse.
posted by lauranesson at 4:23 PM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 4:23 PM on December 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I don't want to thread sit, so this is my last update. thank you all for your continued advice and mostly just the reassurance that we're not being crazy. i feel crazy honestly. going in this back and forth with my dad, just not making sense of why he won't prioritize my mom.
worse, his justification was revealed -- he's been meeting with the board of 8 (we did not know) each month now and he has not caught covid. a sign to him that it will be alright. he tried to invite one of those people to the house for coffee but my mom fought him about it. now it turns out that person has covid. they are not coming to the party, but still. he does not personally know anyone who has died from covid, everyone he knows has recovered, which makes it seem that much more invincible.
the party will be about 20 people. it will be at a house. they live in a small town in the south a few hours from atlanta. i looked up covid regs and I don't think i have hope to report. many of the people on the board do not take covid seriously.
we have weekly zoom calls with my dad. my sister and i call him daily. he has friends he calls. he has books. he loves netflix. he goes out for drives daily and walks and plays golf. he is not starved for human interaction. my mom on the other hand has been staying home except to get groceries. she misses church and her friends. i just don't understand why he doesn't not go to this one party for the sake of my mom.
my mom does not want to stay with my sister after we offered. she is too scared to drive up, and she does not want my sister picking her up. she told my dad an hour ago that she will consider leaving him if he does not at least go to the hotel for a week after attending the party. my dad is now back on considering the hotel.
i am considering sending him an email tonight with some of the things and tactics you all have mentioned. i am just incredibly sad right now though. if anyone else is going through this (and it sounds like some are) i'm so sorry, but i hope this thread could help you out too. thank you everyone for words of advice and encouragement. take care x
posted by buttonedup at 4:34 PM on December 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
worse, his justification was revealed -- he's been meeting with the board of 8 (we did not know) each month now and he has not caught covid. a sign to him that it will be alright. he tried to invite one of those people to the house for coffee but my mom fought him about it. now it turns out that person has covid. they are not coming to the party, but still. he does not personally know anyone who has died from covid, everyone he knows has recovered, which makes it seem that much more invincible.
the party will be about 20 people. it will be at a house. they live in a small town in the south a few hours from atlanta. i looked up covid regs and I don't think i have hope to report. many of the people on the board do not take covid seriously.
we have weekly zoom calls with my dad. my sister and i call him daily. he has friends he calls. he has books. he loves netflix. he goes out for drives daily and walks and plays golf. he is not starved for human interaction. my mom on the other hand has been staying home except to get groceries. she misses church and her friends. i just don't understand why he doesn't not go to this one party for the sake of my mom.
my mom does not want to stay with my sister after we offered. she is too scared to drive up, and she does not want my sister picking her up. she told my dad an hour ago that she will consider leaving him if he does not at least go to the hotel for a week after attending the party. my dad is now back on considering the hotel.
i am considering sending him an email tonight with some of the things and tactics you all have mentioned. i am just incredibly sad right now though. if anyone else is going through this (and it sounds like some are) i'm so sorry, but i hope this thread could help you out too. thank you everyone for words of advice and encouragement. take care x
posted by buttonedup at 4:34 PM on December 2, 2020 [12 favorites]
Honestly, I think you need to let your mom work through this at this point. Your dad is taking risks, but your mom is also scared to leave, it sounds like (driving is so much less dangerous than what your dad is doing, in my estimation, but that's not my call to make for her). It sounds like she has drawn a line. What happens if you take a bit of space from your dad and focusing on helping your mom meet her needs for social interaction?
Your dad is being really selfish. It sounds like he and your mom don't always get along. Is he thinking of this as nagging? In any case, there's not much you can do anymore, I don't think, except for you and your sister to decide on your own boundaries.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:52 PM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Your dad is being really selfish. It sounds like he and your mom don't always get along. Is he thinking of this as nagging? In any case, there's not much you can do anymore, I don't think, except for you and your sister to decide on your own boundaries.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:52 PM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
One last factor to consider is that, sure, most people don't die. But a lot of people are walking away with long-term (possibly lifelong) complications of the disease. Even if he is willing to risk that for himself, is he willing to risk that for anyone he comes into contact with?
posted by suelac at 4:53 PM on December 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by suelac at 4:53 PM on December 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I agree with the comment upthread that your father's behaviour is abusive towards your mom. I would stop trying to convince him of anything and instead put your energy towards empowering your mom in making healthy choices for herself.
posted by saucysault at 7:34 PM on December 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 7:34 PM on December 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
he does not personally know anyone who's died from COVID
Oh, for Pete's sake. (Nothing personal, buttonedup! I am doing a little mild venting here, because my line of work puts me in a position to hear a lot of muttering about COVID protection measures and sites like this are my havens.)
I don't personally know anyone who's died in a car accident (and as since I live in a rural state with very little public transit, it's surprising that I don't). But that doesn't mean that I've stopped wearing seat belts.
And some of the same people who won't put on masks will put on a bright orange hat and matching vest in order to keep from being shot while hunting.
I'd bet that few , if any, of these folks have a personal connection to a hunting-injury fatality, as state death rates from hunting injuries are (thankfully) at all-time lows. But you don't get the "muh RIGHTS" argument about wearing hunter orange.
posted by virago at 9:17 PM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oh, for Pete's sake. (Nothing personal, buttonedup! I am doing a little mild venting here, because my line of work puts me in a position to hear a lot of muttering about COVID protection measures and sites like this are my havens.)
I don't personally know anyone who's died in a car accident (and as since I live in a rural state with very little public transit, it's surprising that I don't). But that doesn't mean that I've stopped wearing seat belts.
And some of the same people who won't put on masks will put on a bright orange hat and matching vest in order to keep from being shot while hunting.
I'd bet that few , if any, of these folks have a personal connection to a hunting-injury fatality, as state death rates from hunting injuries are (thankfully) at all-time lows. But you don't get the "muh RIGHTS" argument about wearing hunter orange.
posted by virago at 9:17 PM on December 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
You’re absolutely not crazy. This is a crazy time. You have rationally adjusted your behavior and expectations to meet the requirements of this crazy time.
In normal times, yes, refusing to see people, expecting others not to, and getting upset with others for for seeing people might qualify as crazy. Your dad is operating as if this is a normal time except that a bunch of the people around him have suddenly gone crazy. He is incorrect—this is not a normal time, and he has not adjusted his behaviors appropriately.
It sounds like you won’t be able to save your dad from his very poor decision-making. You may still be able to help your mom and very possibly save her life. If I were you, I would pay for an Airbnb for my mom to stay at until she got vaccinated. It would give her the option to go somewhere where her stuff is all set up for two weeks at a time whenever your dad makes a poor decision like attending a party.
It would indeed be sad for your parents to live separately for several months, but perhaps it doesn’t have to be contentious. They fundamentally disagree about facts that are informing their decision-making: your dad believes the virus is not truly dangerous; your mom believes it is. Neither one will be able to persuade the other that their version is right, so perhaps they can agree to disagree and acknowledge that living separately for a while isn’t a reflection of their feelings for each other. Hard to do, I’m sure, but living apart for some months does not have to be a high-drama decision.
I really hope your dad pulls through this alright and that your mom is able to stay safe. I, too, have a stubborn dad who takes more risks than I think is reasonable, and it is very hard because it feels like watching a parent self-destruct in slow motion while they’ve put you on mute.
posted by saltypup at 10:21 PM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
In normal times, yes, refusing to see people, expecting others not to, and getting upset with others for for seeing people might qualify as crazy. Your dad is operating as if this is a normal time except that a bunch of the people around him have suddenly gone crazy. He is incorrect—this is not a normal time, and he has not adjusted his behaviors appropriately.
It sounds like you won’t be able to save your dad from his very poor decision-making. You may still be able to help your mom and very possibly save her life. If I were you, I would pay for an Airbnb for my mom to stay at until she got vaccinated. It would give her the option to go somewhere where her stuff is all set up for two weeks at a time whenever your dad makes a poor decision like attending a party.
It would indeed be sad for your parents to live separately for several months, but perhaps it doesn’t have to be contentious. They fundamentally disagree about facts that are informing their decision-making: your dad believes the virus is not truly dangerous; your mom believes it is. Neither one will be able to persuade the other that their version is right, so perhaps they can agree to disagree and acknowledge that living separately for a while isn’t a reflection of their feelings for each other. Hard to do, I’m sure, but living apart for some months does not have to be a high-drama decision.
I really hope your dad pulls through this alright and that your mom is able to stay safe. I, too, have a stubborn dad who takes more risks than I think is reasonable, and it is very hard because it feels like watching a parent self-destruct in slow motion while they’ve put you on mute.
posted by saltypup at 10:21 PM on December 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
my dad is now back on considering the hotel.
This still means "no, I will not stay in a hotel." Your mom has threatened to leave him and he's still not giving you a straight answer.
I get the sense that your dad has a history of getting what he wants by alternately making vague and insincere promises he doesn't intend to keep, pouting when called on it ("dad won’t answer his phone now" stuff) and waiting for you all to make the compromises (your mom's now only asking him to stay in a hotel for one week instead of the standard two, for example.)
I don't think he's persuadable unless you guys really set firm boundaries and stand by them (and probably not even then). Focus on getting your mom more comfortable with the idea of leaving the house before he puts her any more at risk than he already is.
posted by ook at 6:27 AM on December 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
This still means "no, I will not stay in a hotel." Your mom has threatened to leave him and he's still not giving you a straight answer.
I get the sense that your dad has a history of getting what he wants by alternately making vague and insincere promises he doesn't intend to keep, pouting when called on it ("dad won’t answer his phone now" stuff) and waiting for you all to make the compromises (your mom's now only asking him to stay in a hotel for one week instead of the standard two, for example.)
I don't think he's persuadable unless you guys really set firm boundaries and stand by them (and probably not even then). Focus on getting your mom more comfortable with the idea of leaving the house before he puts her any more at risk than he already is.
posted by ook at 6:27 AM on December 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
Our agreement was that they all would limit social interactions at least two weeks beforehand in order for them to visit my sister in atlanta.
Traveling to Atlanta is travel. So it should not happen.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:04 AM on December 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Traveling to Atlanta is travel. So it should not happen.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:04 AM on December 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
She was only doing it so my dad would be happier, because he’s been missing family.
Understand you are essentially clear now on your ability to influence outcomes based on your updates - honestly you probably were from the start given how your dad sounds - but pulling out this line because I believe it illustrates very clearly that you have 2 separate issues at play, the first being attempting to help/protect your mom, and the second being you and your sister's relationships with your father as his daughters. How you should approach each item should likely differ.
While the instinct to get involved and mitigate the situation for your mom is is truly understandable and tough, I agree with those who have stated your mom is an adult and ultimately has to make the final call here. You and your sister can offer her practical alternatives for shelter, volunteer to come get her, offer her money to offset costs of staying elsewhere, etc etc, but she has to pull the trigger and negotiate/make peace with how that may impact her marriage. You've done your best to advocate for her, your father made his position clear, and there is likely nothing to be gained by continuing to engage in that problem despite how heart-breaking and anxiety-inducing it will be to surrender to that reality. I'm so sorry!
Where you do have agency is your relationships with your dad as his daughters. He is very clearly wielding his emotional influence and power as your father to make you both feel obligated to bend to his desires and cater to his preferences in this situation, your comfort be damned. I imagine this is not the first or the last time he will do this, but this is a very clear moment where it may be time to clearly assert your rights as adults with independent lives to start challenging his expectations of how you will all function as a family. I'm not saying you have to get in a big fight or call him out. Rather, it's a perfect moment to set a boundary and hold it firmly with love.
Will he like it? No. Will he act like a petulant child and try to force you to change your mind? Probably. Will it make your relationship different and possibly challenging in the near term? Also likely, but that doesn't mean it's forever. These are conflicts all multi-generational families face in different scenarios/iterations as the children become adults and have families of their own. There will be moments when the previous generation wants it to function on their terms, and the emerging generation has to push back. Yes, sometimes the elders go nuclear and "disown" people - only you can know for sure if that is a risk in your family - but usually, everyone goes through a rough patch and ultimately the dynamic shifts to be more balanced long term. I think this is very clearly one of these moments for you and your sister, and I urge you to face the situation head on and start the process of transitioning your dynamic with your dad to one of a group of adults who collaborate verses a parent who calls the shots and kids who feel required to listen. It's time for everyone to grow into your new roles!
You are allowed to have boundaries, and the people you have boundaries with are allowed to dislike those boundaries. Their emotions about your boundaries do not say anything about the reasonableness of your boundaries.
posted by amycup at 9:58 AM on December 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
Understand you are essentially clear now on your ability to influence outcomes based on your updates - honestly you probably were from the start given how your dad sounds - but pulling out this line because I believe it illustrates very clearly that you have 2 separate issues at play, the first being attempting to help/protect your mom, and the second being you and your sister's relationships with your father as his daughters. How you should approach each item should likely differ.
While the instinct to get involved and mitigate the situation for your mom is is truly understandable and tough, I agree with those who have stated your mom is an adult and ultimately has to make the final call here. You and your sister can offer her practical alternatives for shelter, volunteer to come get her, offer her money to offset costs of staying elsewhere, etc etc, but she has to pull the trigger and negotiate/make peace with how that may impact her marriage. You've done your best to advocate for her, your father made his position clear, and there is likely nothing to be gained by continuing to engage in that problem despite how heart-breaking and anxiety-inducing it will be to surrender to that reality. I'm so sorry!
Where you do have agency is your relationships with your dad as his daughters. He is very clearly wielding his emotional influence and power as your father to make you both feel obligated to bend to his desires and cater to his preferences in this situation, your comfort be damned. I imagine this is not the first or the last time he will do this, but this is a very clear moment where it may be time to clearly assert your rights as adults with independent lives to start challenging his expectations of how you will all function as a family. I'm not saying you have to get in a big fight or call him out. Rather, it's a perfect moment to set a boundary and hold it firmly with love.
Will he like it? No. Will he act like a petulant child and try to force you to change your mind? Probably. Will it make your relationship different and possibly challenging in the near term? Also likely, but that doesn't mean it's forever. These are conflicts all multi-generational families face in different scenarios/iterations as the children become adults and have families of their own. There will be moments when the previous generation wants it to function on their terms, and the emerging generation has to push back. Yes, sometimes the elders go nuclear and "disown" people - only you can know for sure if that is a risk in your family - but usually, everyone goes through a rough patch and ultimately the dynamic shifts to be more balanced long term. I think this is very clearly one of these moments for you and your sister, and I urge you to face the situation head on and start the process of transitioning your dynamic with your dad to one of a group of adults who collaborate verses a parent who calls the shots and kids who feel required to listen. It's time for everyone to grow into your new roles!
You are allowed to have boundaries, and the people you have boundaries with are allowed to dislike those boundaries. Their emotions about your boundaries do not say anything about the reasonableness of your boundaries.
posted by amycup at 9:58 AM on December 3, 2020 [9 favorites]
Don't forget that after his week quarantining at a hotel, he needs to be tested. Many people who are covid positive do not have symptoms, so staying elsewhere for a week is not sufficient in itself.
posted by citygirl at 12:32 PM on December 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by citygirl at 12:32 PM on December 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to touch on this:
He made a comment that he wouldn’t feel the need to be social if his kids lived in the same city as him and we could all be together.
Well isn't that a nice little guilt bomb. If you find it tugging at you a bit, think about the great arguments you could be constantly having about his going out if you lived in the same city and he expected to visit you once a week or more. How nice that you live further away and don't have to deal with turning him away from visiting while you live close by! How great that you aren't having the disagreement that prompted your askme apply to your every week or multiple times per week interactions -- you are probably getting along much better now than if you were in the same city.
Also, maybe things are different there where he lives on "planet having in person meetings", but in many places hotels and AirBnBs are already getting booked up, much more so than for most years in the holiday season. Book something ASAP.
posted by yohko at 11:50 PM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
He made a comment that he wouldn’t feel the need to be social if his kids lived in the same city as him and we could all be together.
Well isn't that a nice little guilt bomb. If you find it tugging at you a bit, think about the great arguments you could be constantly having about his going out if you lived in the same city and he expected to visit you once a week or more. How nice that you live further away and don't have to deal with turning him away from visiting while you live close by! How great that you aren't having the disagreement that prompted your askme apply to your every week or multiple times per week interactions -- you are probably getting along much better now than if you were in the same city.
Also, maybe things are different there where he lives on "planet having in person meetings", but in many places hotels and AirBnBs are already getting booked up, much more so than for most years in the holiday season. Book something ASAP.
posted by yohko at 11:50 PM on December 6, 2020 [4 favorites]
In addition to what others have said about his passive aggressive guilt comment, if you all lived in the same city, you wouldn't be able to see each other all the time! Unless you all lived in the same house! Argh, I'm so sorry.
posted by getawaysticks at 5:02 PM on December 7, 2020
posted by getawaysticks at 5:02 PM on December 7, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
If he wants to go to the dinner, that's fine, he can then live by himself for two weeks until he clears quarantine. Just like anyone in any sane part of the world would have to do -- and enforced by laws -- when they share space with people of unknown COVID status.
I'd just present it as a fiat. You do X, Y happens. Make sure your mother has a suitcase packed and ready to go, so she can leave the house when he's at the dinner. She can leave it by the front door a week ahead of time. "Any time you do something stupid, you live by yourself for two weeks." Maybe that'll straighten up his act.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:26 AM on December 2, 2020 [65 favorites]