(Don't) DIY?
November 12, 2020 1:37 PM   Subscribe

I have trouble hiring professionals for home repair services, with the misguided thought that *I should be able to do it myself.* Obviously, that's not the case. How can I be okay with NOT DIY-ing home repairs/renovations?

I'm going to be arranging some minor re-pairs/renovations in my mother's home while I am staying with her. For example, she really needs a new bathtub installed, painting the main areas of the house, etc. stuff like that.

However, I feel this sense of SHAME or... I dunno... stupidity, for wanting to hire trained people to do these things. This stems from having a father who was an engineer and INSISTED on doing practically every home renovation or repair himself. He installed, new flooring, all types of appliances, painting, plumbing, electrical work... you name it, he did it! I'm pretty sure he only hired "professionals" to install the furnace/hot water heater and install windows. So, somehow, this mindset made it's way to me... despite the fact that I am NOT handy at all and should not ever be doing plumbing anywhere.

He wasn't a trained tradesman in any of the things he did in the house and he tended to not finish ALL of his projects. For example, 15 years ago he installed laminate flooring in their house, but decided he didn't like the new baseboards he bought... and never got around to putting up new baseboards. Walls in the staircase/hallway were never finished because he just didn't like the color. He put repairs "off" like replacing their bathtub tiles after one fell off the wall (long story!!), so that's never been dealt with because it was just put off.

I really want to fix these little things (paint, baseboards, etc.) while I have the time, but I'm really not skilled enough to do them myself. But I feel BAD and almost embarrassed that I can't do this stuff myself? And it obviously comes straight from the environment I grew up in.

How do I feel "okay" about letting trained professionals actually DO this work? Like, I'm sure I can figure out how to paint a room by myself, but I certainly don't want to install baseboards!!! How do I feel "okay" about hiring someone to INSTALL baseboards or to INSTALL a bathtub or, whatever! I get it, I'll pay more if I do it myself, but I have zero skill and no people to help me, so it logically makes sense to hire this stuff out... but I just feel bad about it? I feel like I'm wasting money by not doing it myself. People hire contractors and tradespeople all the time to do this stuff, how can I embrace it?!
posted by VirginiaPlain to Home & Garden (37 answers total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
You're not paying them to do the things that need to be done. You're paying them to free up *your* time so that you can do other things.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:41 PM on November 12, 2020 [25 favorites]

As someone who grew up with this kind of thinking, since I was poor, it took a long time, and enough disposable income to feel safe enough to reframe things.

You're saving both time and money by hiring someone else with the expertise to do the jobs you don't have expertise for. Are you going to know what to do if you do install the baseboards and then accidentally break it? Then you'll have to call in an expert anyway. You can also bounce ideas off the expert (who you are paying for their expertise) and they can tell you whether it's a good idea or not. At the end of the day, once the jobs are done, the renovations will be finished, and your mother will have a pleasant, finished, place to live.
posted by toastyk at 1:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]

DIY: Paint and baseboards sure, new bathtub no.

I have this same inclination. I've lived in a rent-controlled apartment for 25 years, so I'm well-accustomed to fixing up and making modifications myself, but I've also been helping with my Mom during the pandemic with the same attitude.

One thing about doing small stuff myself is that it's S-L-O-W. I ran around the whole house for months to troubleshoot a water hammer that a plumber diagnosed and fixed for the price of only his time: 30 minutes in and out. He spent more time writing up the invoice.

A falling down fence? I contemplated the best non-replacement, non-neighbor-interacting way to fix it for more months: it was replaced in one day after the neighbors approached me.
posted by rhizome at 1:46 PM on November 12, 2020 [7 favorites]

Your local tradespeople would be happy for your support!
posted by warriorqueen at 1:46 PM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]

IANYmom but I am a pretty damn tired mom, and my son has spent the past month arranging this kind of thing for me and I could not be more grateful. Whether its his hands covered in paint at the end of the day, or his thumbs texting with the contractor, as far as I'm concerned, *he's doing it. Which means I don't have to.

I am tearing up just writing that.

Please make this about you and your mom. And tell your dad's judgy spectre to buzz off. After all, he's the perfectionist who left the mess behind (both in the house and in the psyche)!

Hire someone and play Boggle with your mom while they're working. Trust me, she'll love you for it.
posted by headnsouth at 1:47 PM on November 12, 2020 [26 favorites]

After all, he's the perfectionist who left the mess (both in the house and in the psyche)!

I love this. "'Perfection' my ass!"
posted by rhizome at 1:50 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

So I'm an economist and I'm here to tell you that your time is valuable. The cost of doing the work yourself is not just the dollars you spend on paint or wood, it's the opportunity cost -- the value of what you're giving up by not doing it yourself. Your time, your mental energy...those are worth something! It's can be okay to pay someone to do good work, because you get to spend that time doing other stuff.

I encounter this myself with house tasks or just doing things around the house -- like, I use the dishwasher more than I used to before I had a kid. I feel guilty because, yeah, I can wash dishes by hand, but that's time I'm not spending on other things that are more worth it to me (and harder to outsource to a machine).
posted by dismas at 1:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]

Good grief, if you are making sure it gets done right and completely done, it sounds like you have learned from your father's mistakes and that is one of the better outcomes in life.
posted by Glomar response at 1:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]

I used to do a lot of home projects myself. It finally occurred to me that the jobs that might take me 2 or 3 weekends to complete could be done by a professional in 2 or 3 days, freeing up my weekends.
posted by tman99 at 1:52 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]

I do a lot of DIY stuff around the house, I love the satisfaction that comes with doing something, but the number one skill a homeowner can have is knowing when to call a professional. I call people all the time.

Professionals are trained. They have years of experience. They have all the tools. They know where to get the materials for less than you can probably get them.

If you value your time you will almost never save too much money doing a job yourself. Especially a job like tiling a bathroom. You will find yourself constantly needing to rent or buy tools that you don't have. You will spend all sorts of time at the home center looking for materials, only to have to go back when you need more screws or grout or whatever. You will be sore at the end of the day. You'll have cuts and at least one blackened fingernail that will finally fall off in three months.

Do small jobs. Maybe the baseboards is something you can tackle and then feel good about every time you see the baseboards. Then hire someone to install the bathtub because plumbing is THE WORST thing you can possibly do yourself. I swear to god every plumbing job I've ever done has required contorting my body into impossible positions, spending hours looking for a proper fitting, scraped knuckles, lots of swearing, not having the right tools, and leaks.

When you hire a professional:

You save your own time. Time is valuable.
You support a small business
You're often supporting immigrants who really need the work
You never have to worry about not having the right tools
Same with materials
You can be sure they'll do a better job than you can
You don't have to call a buddy to help you get the bathtub upstairs
You won't have blackened fingernails and scraped knuckles at the end of the day

You said yourself you have "zero" skill. That right there is reason enough. If you want to learn these skills then, sure, spend 4x as long as a pro would spend and do a mediocre job. You'll learn to do a task that you may never have to do again, and then you can repeat the process on the next task. Eventually you'll have some skills. But it sounds like it's something you don't even WANT to do. Then don't do it. Go do something you'll enjoy doing. Life is short.
posted by bondcliff at 1:52 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]

I have spent over a year without lights in my bathroom because my husband is too embarrassed to admit he doesn't know how to fix the wiring. He took what was a simple short & a few minutes job for an electrician & turned it into a rewiring of a part of the basement nightmare, that I swear the guy is going to have to do again from the start just to figure out what the hell my husband has done. Hubby was eyeing up a dimmer switch we're having problems with the other day, at this rate I'll be living by candle light. Please don't be my husband, just pay a Trades person to do the skilled jobs, they like to earn money & if you can afford it, it's not worth the stress & the peeing in the dark.
posted by wwax at 1:52 PM on November 12, 2020 [18 favorites]

I sympathize, because I have the same issue!

Maybe one way to reframe it for yourself is that calling a tradesperson to handle it this time doesn't prevent you from learning how to do it in the future! You can always learn! But the time to learn how to fix a house problem is not while you currently have that problem, because the problem needs to be fixed now and it will take you x number of weeks/months to learn how to fix it.

In fact, seeing how a skilled worker fixes the problem could be your first step in learning how to do it yourself.
posted by mekily at 1:53 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]

If you don't know what you're doing, you're gonna break stuff. Also, your dad was an engineer! Different standards! Also probably had more knowledge to DIY! Which you don't have.

Look, it annoys me greatly that I technically know how to do an oil change, but I physically cannot do it while living at an apartment, so I have to pay $75 to get that done. Literally, it's "let oil drip out for an hour and then pour more oil in," for godsake. But....that's life, you know? I may have taken an auto mechanics class, but I can't do most of that stuff from home alone.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:56 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]

Possible reframing:

a. The house is a large financial asset; of course you'd want professionals to do this work. Professionals would've installed the baseboards 15 years ago.
b. It's possible your dad 'put off' finishing certain projects because he didn't have the skill to do that part of the project. (Your wall color example, for instance -- paint is an easy thing to change to one's liking.)
c. Whatever it is you've done for a paycheck, you've probably had some explicit training for it... much like the competent, experienced people you'll be hiring.
d. Having the work done correctly from the jump is going to be much cheaper than having tradespeople undo well-intentioned amateur mistakes.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]

I am more than capable of doing some of the jobs around my house. Painting, replacing trim, etc. But I HATE it, and would rather read a book. Is it cause I'm lazy? Maybe, but I wouldn't let some random dude play with my spreadsheets just cause he wasn't lazy. In other words, I work hard at my day job, and I let the guy who works hard at his day job do the stuff I hate.
posted by Ftsqg at 2:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

You feel bad and almost embarrassed that you can't do this stuff yourself? Why? Your dad couldn’t do it himself either. That’s why you’re living in a house without baseboards and tiles. Part of taking on a task is completing it - I’d say that’s the most important part! So if that means hiring someone who can do it quickly and professionally and actually finish it, then you’re already way ahead of your dad.
posted by Jubey at 2:01 PM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]

I do almost no DIY ever and I freaking love calling professionals to do all of my stuff. My Rolodex of trusted experts is bulging at the seams. (And I grew up surrounded by super handy men in my family who DIYed everything, my dad renovated most of the house I grew up in from stem to stern over several years and he was largely self-taught.) I don't even do my own painting, which is supposed to be the "easiest" because I hate everything about it.

It gets done.
It gets done FAST.
It gets done COMPLETELY.
It gets done without me needing to spend my rare free Saturdays making 1,001 trips to Home Depot (because there is almost no home project that doesn't require at least one and usually more trips to HD).
It gets fully cleaned up afterwards.
There is no drama and it is (usually) completely stress-free for me, or at least very minimally stressful because when things go sideways or take even longer, it's their problem and they must handle it professionally. Those super handy DIY-doing men I mentioned above, well, they did great work in the end, but yeah, it always took forever, was super messy, sometimes had to be redone or experts called in to fix mistakes, and caused patience to run out quickly and tempers to flare OFTEN. I decided at an early age that I would always hire professionals because that is not something I ever want in my personal space or life ever again.

I reserve my time and energy for carefully trimming my personal expenses so I always have a buffer of funds available for home improvement, and for fostering my professional skills and accomplishments so I can keep gettin' those raises that make the projects possible. Seriously, there is no doubt in my mind that I am coming out way, way ahead in both money and happiness. The first time you close the door behind the baseboard guy who just left, and you get to sink right into that glowy satisfction of putting the furniture back and arranging everything to your liking and then sitting there admiring your new space, that is a great feeling that you don't get that when you're sweaty and exhausted and annoyed and just want to collapse but everything still has to be cleaned up and put away.
posted by anderjen at 2:09 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]

You already know that developing the expertise to do these jobs right would take more time than you have to spend. This is specialized, skilled work. It makes sense to pay someone who already has that expertise to do the work. You’re purchasing vastly increased efficiency in getting the job done. That’s worth paying for.

Consider how much of your time it would realistically take — learning to do things, fixing your mistakes, fixing new problems caused by your mistakes, etc. You could certainly learn to do it if you really wanted to — but how much is your time worth? You have other skills and other responsibilities to take care of.

And consider your mom too — if things around the house stay broken and non-functional for long periods of time, that has costs to her, too. It could even be dangerous, depending on the thing. Much better to pay a skilled tradesperson to get it done right.
posted by snowmentality at 2:11 PM on November 12, 2020

My older brother is a carpenter/contractor by trade and having people need things repaired or built or improved during quarantine has been a GIFT to him, because he lives from gig to gig, and a lot of work had been drying up for him. When people are using his services (safely, usually by arrangement where they'll go out while he's working or he can do as much at home and install when they're not there), he's able to keep his head above water financially. So you're able to give some work to someone who may need it, if that helps.
posted by xingcat at 2:13 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]

Think of it “for the good of the house.” I once lived in an apartment carved out of a beautiful 19th century house. It was owned by a lawyer... who had obviously done all the work himself. His dad, I think, had worked a construction trade. So instead of spending his time lawyering and getting paid LawyerBux, this guy was gluing down some linoleum roll and cutting it off with an exacto knife rather than nailing a little strip to keep it in place.

My dad actually has training and experience doing this stuff professionally. I do not but I could still recognize the bad, bad work that was inflicted on that poor house.

You wouldn’t do your own lawyering or surgery, it’s okay to bring in a pro here.
posted by Hypatia at 2:14 PM on November 12, 2020 [7 favorites]

I mean, it is hubris to expect yourself, even even if you were an enthusiastic DIY-er, to do as good and as fast a job as a trained professional who is getting paid for it.
If you want a job well done, give it to someone who is better at it than you, or me, or most people, because it is what they do every day for a living.
Your mom wants a house that won't give her any more trouble for the next years. She also wants to spend time with you and be happy and relaxed.
What she doesn't want: a stressed out you spending all your time desperately fixing the house.

People who DIY do it because on some level they're deriving satisfaction from it or because they have more time than money. Not because it's somehow morally superior. If you don't, that's no moral failing.

Give your mom what she wants!
posted by Omnomnom at 2:16 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

Look, your goal is to make your mom's life better by getting stuff done around the house, right? And the things you have on hand are 1) money, 2) zero desire to do the work yourself, 3) no particular skill in doing the work yourself, and 4) an available pool of workers who do have the desire and skill to do it. Will your mom be happier with a job that's competently done and completely finished in a reasonable amount of time, or with an amateur job done by unhappy you that takes forever or maybe never does get completely done?


P.S. For many years I was married to a man who inherited this attitude from his own father. He refused to hire anyone to do anything, started projects and took forever to finish them, and was bitterly resentful when he did work on them. We went an entire year without a bathroom sink, a picket fence stayed 1/4 painted for two years, etc. We're divorced now and I hire people to do this stuff and I can't tell you how much nicer it is. Never again.
posted by HotToddy at 2:19 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: You feel bad and almost embarrassed that you can't do this stuff yourself? Why? Your dad couldn’t do it himself either.

That really made me laugh, jubey. I never thought of it that way before, but IT'S TRUE!!!!

Good advice so far! I am so GLAD that I don't *need* to feel like I have to do this stuff all by myself anymore. I think it was also made worse by having a landlord who was also a) an engineer and b) also tried to only do home renovations herself. There's such an attitude of looking down on people who "pay more" or aren't able to "do it themselves" in home improvement/reno forums I've browsed, so it's nice to know that, yeah... I don't have to do it.

I guess, I also need to take into account that hiring someone to do the job RIGHT would be cheaper in the long run. I feel bad about spending my mom's money on some of these improvements as well! Ack! Maybe that's another question for another day. Realistically, these are pretty modest improvements. We're not going to be gutting the kitchen anytime soon.

I feel so much better about having minimal home improvement skills now, though!!!!
posted by VirginiaPlain at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]

There are not enough hours in most people's lives to learn how to do everything well. There's a reason most of us don't cut our own hair or sew our own clothing or fix our own cars. The people who do learn to do specialized things on an amateur basis generally do so either because they really enjoy doing them, or because they lack (or don't want to spend) the money to hire someone who could do the thing faster and better. If you can afford to pay and you don't have a particular passion for learning household repair, then paying an expert to do it shouldn't cause any more guilt or shame than you'd feel about paying for a haircut or buying clothing from a store.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 2:34 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]

Yep, this is entirely about Good, Fast, or Cheap - you can only ever have two.

There's such an attitude of looking down on people who "pay more" or aren't able to "do it themselves" in home improvement/reno forums I've browsed

Go find some forums for professionals and see what they say. The mistakes they see - from potentially lethal to just fugly - because people didn't want to "pay more" or insisted on DIY when they didn't have the tools, skills, or practice will curl your hair.

Your mother has had to live with some pretty sub-par conditions thanks to this mindset; treat her to work she doesn't have to worry about.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:40 PM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]

I went without a bathroom sink for something like 2 years because my ex insisted on doing it himself. And because, you see, if we're going to do the sink we should do the counter, and if we're going to do the counter we should paint, and if we're going to paint we should do the towel rods...

He bought that house from me seven years ago. I wonder if he's installed the damn sink yet.

Don't be the person that your mother is gently chuckling over with her bridge group/circle of super secret spies/chess club/secret circle of world leaders/whatever she does with her time. :)
posted by joycehealy at 2:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]

And like a lot of my less-useful habits, they worked in my 20s. Carrying a conversation with factoid quips, using toothpaste to cover nail holes, using a roller by myself to paint a ceiling...none of these are worth the time nor effort to do in one's later years.

that is a great feeling that you don't get that when you're sweaty and exhausted and annoyed and just want to collapse but everything still has to be cleaned up and put away.

...and if you're like me, thinking about that one nailhead that didn't go in straight and knowing exactly where it is for the rest of your life, spotting it several times a day when you go to the bathroom.
posted by rhizome at 2:49 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]

I finally called a handyman this week because our curtain pole fixtures came out of the wall for the seventh time. It was a tricky bit of wall and I’ve managed nearly every other job, but I couldn’t bear the cost and embarrassment or paying someone to do something I should be able to do. Seven times!

It took him about 15 minutes and it’s secure enough that I could try pull-ups on it now. I nearly cried with relief, and he got paid and we both took care with masks and ventilation.

There are jobs I will probably always do myself, and jobs that need a specialist, but I need to value my time and sanity on the third category of jobs I could do but it would either be less good or it would take time I don’t have. Our budget will probably define where that line is at any given time.

It’s ok to call in help if you can afford it, and you’re giving someone work to help you.
posted by carbide at 3:01 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]

I don't know how old your mom is or how your health is, but I suspect she'd *much* rather spend time with you using her own money than have you attempt to do all this stuff yourself. That sounds stressful. It's the whole penny-wise-pound-foolish thing.

Also, if you've ever bought a house, one of the worst things is when you go to look at a house that had an avid DIYer. My 115 year old house doesn't have too much of this stuff, but it's clear what stuff was done by an overly eager and not terrible talented homeowner rather than by a professional. That stuff is the worst to deal with.

Professional work is worth a lot more than amateur attempts. Actually, you might take some money and hire some folks to finish the stuff your dad never did. Really make the house shine.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:29 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]

I'm coming at this from a different perspective, in having grown up with a mother who seems to think that women can't really know how to DIY so there is no other choice but to "get a man* to do it" or leave things unfixed. Like she seems to think that it's impossible that I could know how to use a drill or safely assemble Ikea furniture. There's a lot of toxic femininity BS inherent in that worldview, and although I know you're approaching this from wanting to follow in your father's footsteps I think that unpacking some of the genderedness around attitudes towards DIY might be helpful.

Ovaries be damned, there are repairs I'm capable of doing reasonably well with the skills I have right now, and other things that I could probably half-ass with a bit more instruction and effort. At least for me, acknowledging that self-efficacy part is really important in distancing myself from my weird DIY baggage. Having the presence of mind to recognize that I likely don't need professional help with everything is the next step. All that said, just because I can do something well doesn't mean that I wouldn't benefit from getting someone else to do it, not necessarily because I'm incapable of doing it myself but because I value having time to do other stuff.

It's okay not to know how to or want to do something! Having DIY skills beyond basic putting-in-a-lightbulb stuff is almost more for personal satisfaction than self-sufficiency in a lot of cases, especially if you can afford to pay someone to help out. I think that being very clear with yourself that not going the DIY route isn't a reflection of learned helplessness will make it a lot easier to move forward with calling the professionals in.

*Like, not even necessarily an actual handyman or tradesperson, but just any freaking rando with an Y chromosome because of course they'll know how to do everything because men i mean no wtf
posted by blerghamot at 4:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]

I bet if you could get an honest answer from your mom, she would choose "Paid professional contractor" over "reluctant untrained amateur" to come to her home repairs. Throw money at that problem! It's what money's for.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:48 PM on November 12, 2020

I mean, for me, the bottom line is this: I could absolutely change my own oil (as an example). It's not hard. I'd obviously have to look up how to do it and the info for my specific car but it's doable by a normal person with some basic mechanical skill.

On the other hand, I could pay the guy that does it all day $50 to do it in an hour or two and find other shit that might be wrong with my car while I sit in the air conditioning and watch basic cable and don't have to lay out in the heat getting sweaty and dirty and banging my knuckles on the engine. He/she presumably enjoys it (at least enough to do it for a living).

You're saving yourself time, energy, and hassle, and it actually gets done right in a reasonable amount of time. And you're putting money into your local community and supporting a local tradesperson.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 5:27 PM on November 12, 2020

I love outsourcing big, complicated projects to skilled people. If I tried doing them myself, it would most likely just end in tears. It's really not worth trying to do it yourself if it will end up unfinished, badly done and/or more expensive.

Maybe something you could do is try to find a small, simple, low stakes DIY project which you could complete for yourself. Mine was installing a cabin hook on my bathroom door.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 2:16 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]

My DIY ability extends only as far as installing hooks. The result so far being, if something can be half solved with hooks, then I will have tried doing it myself. I now have far too many hooks.

A professional will have more and probably better options to draw from.
posted by doiheartwentyone at 3:26 AM on November 13, 2020

Don't forget to give yourself credit for what you *are* doing, too! Assessing what needs to be done and finding the right pros is work in and of itself, and it sounds like you're taking that on. Are you also perhaps helping your mom sort through bills, paperwork, legal stuff? Keeping her company in a weird lonely time? Lending a hand with housework? Then you're not turning everything over to pros, you're doing the things that make sense for you to handle personally, and making a good judgment call on the rest.
posted by february at 6:33 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also, you’re living with your mom temporarily I gather; having a professional in provides her with access in the future to a professional al you’ve met and vetted who can fix similar issues when you aren’t as local. There’s a great security in that. Also the person will likely know what they did before and won’t be like “holy shit, what happened here!?”.
Also, nail in the coffin time, if you have insurance that covers damage to the house done by an amateur with a hammer please let me know. Mine most certainly does not, and if my bathtub escapade caused water damage to me (or neighbors!) I would be on the hook for all of it.
posted by J.R. Hartley at 3:51 AM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]

I have been painting my house myself (and removing/refinishing/replacing the baseboards, which were *trashed* by earlier amateur housepainting attempts. Tape, people! It's a thing!) and a) I enjoy the process and b) I actually worked for a housepainter one summer and so have at least some basic instruction in the tools and methods and it *still* takes four times as long as a crew of professionals could do.

Education is valuable! Skills take time and practice to acquire! A blind insistence that "I should be able to do this myself" devalues both the education and the experience it takes to do these things and is an intensely classist position. Plumbing and electricity in particular are fields that require extensive instruction and then fairly long supervised apprenticeships - they are not something any given college grad could pick up in a weekend.

(I don't say this to accuse you, but I do accuse your dad. We vastly undervalue the trade skills in this country on a social level and it's an embarrassment.)
posted by restless_nomad at 6:52 AM on November 14, 2020 [2 favorites]

« Older Where do I find this material?   |   How to stop eating at night safely Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.