User vs. Opportunist vs. Lucky
November 6, 2020 11:29 PM Subscribe
I've often wondered how some times in my life I'm able to find such a varied array of ethics among my social circle. I had a falling out with one over my use of the word "user". Heres the bitty bits: I have a long time friend C I have known 5 years. He is super sweet and very helpful but not totally clued In to body language, social cues etc and can make awkward gaffes of his hermit lifestyle. Hes also a bit of a Martyr type who likes to be a hero but usually at his own demise. I also have a friend T who I've known 1 yr she is funny (cont)
A bit of a cool cat pot head who doesnt mind mixing in any group and will tolerate anyone. So one night I had plans with T and was asked if I could give C a ride. I while I did the favor I introduced the two. (There isnt any romantic hookup connotation there it was just how it worked out.) Oh i should mention T is transient and I was told lives out of her car at motels and flopping on couches but I never delved much into her personal life since I only see her at my place. Anyway like two or three weeks later I see C and there are piles of suitcases and boxes in his living room he said belong to T. My first reaction is "who meets someone for the first time and asked to move in?" But she didnt live there she was just storing stuff. To me it's the same thing but I digress. Ok now weeks pass more weeks pass and as I see C rather regularly I see the pile growing exponentially Like BIG TIME she has more stuff than he does in his place. So I get mad because I'm sure he wanted to help but didnt know this was where it would lead but hes so dense he didnt see it coming AND hes too nice to stop it. So what would you make of C? Is this his tough luck? What would you think of T? Is she a user which was my answer? Or is it Me the one who caused this and should be more willing to remove T from the over present position she now has in my friends life? We are all 40 something aged people with no jealousy or emotional involved I just want to know is this usery?
A bit of a cool cat pot head who doesnt mind mixing in any group and will tolerate anyone. So one night I had plans with T and was asked if I could give C a ride. I while I did the favor I introduced the two. (There isnt any romantic hookup connotation there it was just how it worked out.) Oh i should mention T is transient and I was told lives out of her car at motels and flopping on couches but I never delved much into her personal life since I only see her at my place. Anyway like two or three weeks later I see C and there are piles of suitcases and boxes in his living room he said belong to T. My first reaction is "who meets someone for the first time and asked to move in?" But she didnt live there she was just storing stuff. To me it's the same thing but I digress. Ok now weeks pass more weeks pass and as I see C rather regularly I see the pile growing exponentially Like BIG TIME she has more stuff than he does in his place. So I get mad because I'm sure he wanted to help but didnt know this was where it would lead but hes so dense he didnt see it coming AND hes too nice to stop it. So what would you make of C? Is this his tough luck? What would you think of T? Is she a user which was my answer? Or is it Me the one who caused this and should be more willing to remove T from the over present position she now has in my friends life? We are all 40 something aged people with no jealousy or emotional involved I just want to know is this usery?
As someone who is currently experiencing housing insecurity due to COVID, I am extra grateful for the support I am being given now. Just as I have given support to others in the past. I'm certainly not a user but I acknowledge that people can be users. I know I've been used in the past so I always keep an eye out. However, what my friends choose to do for others is generally none of my business or concern unless they ask for my feedback or advice. And if I don't like their choices, be they "users" or too easily taken for a ride by manipulative people, I either accept their choices or end the friendship. You should trust your gut and, if I may be so bold, reflect upon your own choices in that it seems like you and C may even have a bit of a codependent element to your friendship, too.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:54 PM on November 6, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 11:54 PM on November 6, 2020 [8 favorites]
Has T in any way intimated that he is not okay with this? Storing goods is vastly different to living together, I have to point out. Also that there is a lot of assumption and paternalistic 'concern' here that isn't supported even by what you have said about the conversation. Without any actual voiced concern from T I would definitely not call it being a user, and I know I was greatly upset and offended when various friends/family I have helped have been called that. It undermines and erases my choice to help.
One of my best friends was homeless. He lives in a different country, and we haven't met irl, but I would have let him sleep on my couch, I would have stored his belongings. I am forever grateful to the people who did those things, or offered their washing machine and shower and internet. Any time I am reminded of their kindnesses I say a blessing for them. Their actions directly contributed to his survival and that he is now employed, housed, and getting on with life.
posted by geek anachronism at 12:46 AM on November 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
One of my best friends was homeless. He lives in a different country, and we haven't met irl, but I would have let him sleep on my couch, I would have stored his belongings. I am forever grateful to the people who did those things, or offered their washing machine and shower and internet. Any time I am reminded of their kindnesses I say a blessing for them. Their actions directly contributed to his survival and that he is now employed, housed, and getting on with life.
posted by geek anachronism at 12:46 AM on November 7, 2020 [7 favorites]
A few more ways to look at it:
1. I saw in your history that you're an animal lover. Perhaps it'd help to look at it from that perspective. If you saw a stray kitten or puppy on the street, would you help it? I would and most people would; I think you would, too. We human animals tend to be more open to helping non-human animals. This is OK but perhaps see that your heartstrings and C's heartstrings get pulled slightly different ways. Likewise, sometimes when we criticize others, we are subconsciously criticizing ourselves. To me, just as it's not wrong for C to help T, it's not wrong for you to not help T. Do you feel a little guilty? Or worried about people being manipulated because you've felt manipulated in the past? Both feelings are OK just as all feelings are OK.
2. Things have different values to different people. You are seeing this scenario as imbalanced because C is being used by T for sharing their space. However, another way to see it this: the value of the friendship or act of helping is equal or greater to the amount of space C's belongings are taking up. Another way to see this: some more traditional marriages have a particular division of labor. One partner earns money outside of the home to support the family while the other partner supports the family by taking care of things inside the home. The one partner may not be earning money but their contributions are equal to or greater than the partner who works at a paid job. Indeed, C and T don't have a partnership but they have a friendship; friendship doesn't have to be 50/50 at all times to feel 100 to both or all parties.
Finally, I second everything AlexiaSky and geek anachronism said. I also encourage to you read up on reframing homelessness. For example, "flopping on couches" is very loaded vocabulary. That's OK but there are other less judgmental ways to say it should you wish.
posted by smorgasbord at 1:28 AM on November 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
1. I saw in your history that you're an animal lover. Perhaps it'd help to look at it from that perspective. If you saw a stray kitten or puppy on the street, would you help it? I would and most people would; I think you would, too. We human animals tend to be more open to helping non-human animals. This is OK but perhaps see that your heartstrings and C's heartstrings get pulled slightly different ways. Likewise, sometimes when we criticize others, we are subconsciously criticizing ourselves. To me, just as it's not wrong for C to help T, it's not wrong for you to not help T. Do you feel a little guilty? Or worried about people being manipulated because you've felt manipulated in the past? Both feelings are OK just as all feelings are OK.
2. Things have different values to different people. You are seeing this scenario as imbalanced because C is being used by T for sharing their space. However, another way to see it this: the value of the friendship or act of helping is equal or greater to the amount of space C's belongings are taking up. Another way to see this: some more traditional marriages have a particular division of labor. One partner earns money outside of the home to support the family while the other partner supports the family by taking care of things inside the home. The one partner may not be earning money but their contributions are equal to or greater than the partner who works at a paid job. Indeed, C and T don't have a partnership but they have a friendship; friendship doesn't have to be 50/50 at all times to feel 100 to both or all parties.
Finally, I second everything AlexiaSky and geek anachronism said. I also encourage to you read up on reframing homelessness. For example, "flopping on couches" is very loaded vocabulary. That's OK but there are other less judgmental ways to say it should you wish.
posted by smorgasbord at 1:28 AM on November 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
This is for C and T to work out between them. They are both adults. Negotiating their boundaries is their responsibility, not yours, and you are not in a position to dictate how C (or anybody other than you) chooses to run his own home.
Unless and until C or T or both asks your for your help in negotiating with the other, your best course here is to step back from this situation and let them get on with it.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on November 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
Unless and until C or T or both asks your for your help in negotiating with the other, your best course here is to step back from this situation and let them get on with it.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on November 7, 2020 [12 favorites]
She doesn't sound like a user to me.
We are all 40 something aged people with no jealousy or emotional involved I just want to know is this usery?
If there's no emotional involvement, why does it matter? You don't have a position of authority over them. I had a longer version of this answer, arguing for their agency and right to make their own choices, but it doesn't matter. You should step back.
posted by RainyJay at 3:48 AM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
We are all 40 something aged people with no jealousy or emotional involved I just want to know is this usery?
If there's no emotional involvement, why does it matter? You don't have a position of authority over them. I had a longer version of this answer, arguing for their agency and right to make their own choices, but it doesn't matter. You should step back.
posted by RainyJay at 3:48 AM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
It sounds as if you think you might be to blame for the situation, since you introduced C and T. And you think C may be being used, and you wonder if you should step in to put a stop to it.
You are not responsible for the situation. All you did was introduce them and they took it from there.
If C has not expressed dismay over the situation and specifically asked for your help, it would be inappropriate for you to "butt in" and try to manage the choices of two grown adults.
If C does not like what is happening but is "too nice" to say so, it is still up to them to decide when and how to express this to T and begin to enforce boundaries. This may be a growth step for C and/or a life lesson about boundaries in general that will serve them in the future. If C decides they need your help at some point, it is up to them to ask for it.
If you believe there is an element of manipulation or coersion, depending on your relationship with C it might be appropriate to ask "Are you ok with so much of T's stuff being stored here?" and be willing to help if C says they don't know how to put a stop to the situation. But it sounds like C is ok with it, so I suggest letting it drop unless and until you hear differently from C.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:48 AM on November 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
You are not responsible for the situation. All you did was introduce them and they took it from there.
If C has not expressed dismay over the situation and specifically asked for your help, it would be inappropriate for you to "butt in" and try to manage the choices of two grown adults.
If C does not like what is happening but is "too nice" to say so, it is still up to them to decide when and how to express this to T and begin to enforce boundaries. This may be a growth step for C and/or a life lesson about boundaries in general that will serve them in the future. If C decides they need your help at some point, it is up to them to ask for it.
If you believe there is an element of manipulation or coersion, depending on your relationship with C it might be appropriate to ask "Are you ok with so much of T's stuff being stored here?" and be willing to help if C says they don't know how to put a stop to the situation. But it sounds like C is ok with it, so I suggest letting it drop unless and until you hear differently from C.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:48 AM on November 7, 2020 [5 favorites]
So what would you make of C?
I don't have enough information to make anything of C.
Is this his tough luck?
Can't say without evidence. Does he consider his luck tough? Do the cons outweigh the pros for C? Insufficient information; cannot determine.
What would you think of T?
Insufficient information; cannot determine.
Is she a user which was my answer?
Insufficient information; cannot determine. (How did you manage to arrive at an answer? Do you have more information than you included in the question?)
Or is it Me the one who caused this
Technically I again lack the information to determine, but for this question I will venture a guess: No. Because how could you have caused it? Do you have control over any of the causal factors? Namely C, T, C's dwelling, or T's stuff...? I think it's a safe guess that no, you don't, because if you did, you'd've included that detail. Thus I can conclude with fairly good confidence that no, you are not the one who caused this.
and should be more willing to remove T from the over present position she now has in my friends life?
Do you have legal guardianship over either C or T? If so, possibly, but it seems unlikely you'd've failed to include that information, so again I am going to venture a guess: No.
We are all 40 something aged people with no jealousy or emotional involved I just want to know is this usery?
Maybe? Maybe not? Did they draw up a contract we can check out?
I'm sure he wanted to help but didnt know this was where it would lead but hes so dense he didnt see it coming AND hes too nice to stop it.
How are you so sure about this, and if you're sure, why are you asking Metafilter? What does C say?
posted by Don Pepino at 7:19 AM on November 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't have enough information to make anything of C.
Is this his tough luck?
Can't say without evidence. Does he consider his luck tough? Do the cons outweigh the pros for C? Insufficient information; cannot determine.
What would you think of T?
Insufficient information; cannot determine.
Is she a user which was my answer?
Insufficient information; cannot determine. (How did you manage to arrive at an answer? Do you have more information than you included in the question?)
Or is it Me the one who caused this
Technically I again lack the information to determine, but for this question I will venture a guess: No. Because how could you have caused it? Do you have control over any of the causal factors? Namely C, T, C's dwelling, or T's stuff...? I think it's a safe guess that no, you don't, because if you did, you'd've included that detail. Thus I can conclude with fairly good confidence that no, you are not the one who caused this.
and should be more willing to remove T from the over present position she now has in my friends life?
Do you have legal guardianship over either C or T? If so, possibly, but it seems unlikely you'd've failed to include that information, so again I am going to venture a guess: No.
We are all 40 something aged people with no jealousy or emotional involved I just want to know is this usery?
Maybe? Maybe not? Did they draw up a contract we can check out?
I'm sure he wanted to help but didnt know this was where it would lead but hes so dense he didnt see it coming AND hes too nice to stop it.
How are you so sure about this, and if you're sure, why are you asking Metafilter? What does C say?
posted by Don Pepino at 7:19 AM on November 7, 2020 [3 favorites]
This doesn't really have much to do with you beyond the fact that you introduced them. Some people get married after having known one another for a week. Storing some things in someone's house doesn't entangle them that much. Just because you can't imagine doing those things doesn't mean that they're wrong. It isn't really your business at this point, and friends should not judge their friend's life choices. Maybe spend some time reflecting on why this bothers you so much instead of calling your friends dense martyrs or transient users. If someone said those kinds of things about me or behaved in ways that demonstrated that this was how they thought of me, they would no longer be someone I considered a friend.
posted by k8lin at 7:25 AM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by k8lin at 7:25 AM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Labeling people (user, transient, martyr) isn’t the most emotionally healthy approach. If you want to understand more about this, talk to C. But I’m not sure it’s your business or your responsibility.
Also, you said T is your friend who you see regularly but you were told by someone else she lives in her car. If you’re not good enough friends to have a conversation about her housing situation, I’d really stay out of it.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:53 AM on November 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
Also, you said T is your friend who you see regularly but you were told by someone else she lives in her car. If you’re not good enough friends to have a conversation about her housing situation, I’d really stay out of it.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:53 AM on November 7, 2020 [10 favorites]
I don’t know enough to make a call but I trust you were stating your good-faith opinion. However, it’s risky to state an opinion like that.
One thing you might not have considered is that labeling someone a user insults not just the user but the other person as well. It means the other person is the...usee? A victim, a sucker, less intelligent than you because they didn’t see what you see, etc. So the hard feelings are no surprise.
In my life I have overextended myself to someone who’d never do the same for me. That’s a user. I have also overextended myself for people who would do so for me if only fortune had smiled upon them a little more. That’s not a user. The difference isn’t always easy to determine until much later.
posted by kapers at 1:05 PM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
One thing you might not have considered is that labeling someone a user insults not just the user but the other person as well. It means the other person is the...usee? A victim, a sucker, less intelligent than you because they didn’t see what you see, etc. So the hard feelings are no surprise.
In my life I have overextended myself to someone who’d never do the same for me. That’s a user. I have also overextended myself for people who would do so for me if only fortune had smiled upon them a little more. That’s not a user. The difference isn’t always easy to determine until much later.
posted by kapers at 1:05 PM on November 7, 2020 [2 favorites]
Unless C has told you specifically and clearly that he has a problem with it, I would think this is none of your business and both people involved are grown adults who can make their own decisions. Without knowing details of their agreement I definitely wouldn't characterize T as a user.
Absent other information, it appears that one person is doing another person a favor in a difficult situation, and you have nothing to do with it other than having introduced them. It would be really weird for you to make some sort of stand about a situation that is not any of your business.
Let them work it out. At most, if you're concerned, talk to C about that and ask, don't assume, how this came about and how he's feeling about it.
posted by Stacey at 7:37 PM on November 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
Absent other information, it appears that one person is doing another person a favor in a difficult situation, and you have nothing to do with it other than having introduced them. It would be really weird for you to make some sort of stand about a situation that is not any of your business.
Let them work it out. At most, if you're concerned, talk to C about that and ask, don't assume, how this came about and how he's feeling about it.
posted by Stacey at 7:37 PM on November 7, 2020 [1 favorite]
So I get mad because I'm sure he wanted to help but didnt know this was where it would lead but hes so dense he didnt see it coming AND hes too nice to stop it.
If C cares at all about the extra stuff at his place, there's some things about life he can learn here on his own.
Doesn't seem like there's any harm in the stuff being there, just let these people work things out on their own. Don't interfere in your friends friendships with each other and try to "remove" them from each other. And no, just because to you storing things is the same as living somewhere doesn't mean that those things are magically the same.
no jealousy or emotional involved
Seems like you have gotten pretty emotionally involved in a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you or affect your life in any way.
"who meets someone for the first time and asked to move in?"
Not at all uncommon actually.
posted by yohko at 2:04 AM on November 8, 2020
If C cares at all about the extra stuff at his place, there's some things about life he can learn here on his own.
Doesn't seem like there's any harm in the stuff being there, just let these people work things out on their own. Don't interfere in your friends friendships with each other and try to "remove" them from each other. And no, just because to you storing things is the same as living somewhere doesn't mean that those things are magically the same.
no jealousy or emotional involved
Seems like you have gotten pretty emotionally involved in a situation that doesn't have anything to do with you or affect your life in any way.
"who meets someone for the first time and asked to move in?"
Not at all uncommon actually.
posted by yohko at 2:04 AM on November 8, 2020
It might be worth having a private conversation with C, where you assure him he can be completely upfront with you about the situation, without fear of upsetting you, and ask him if he's okay with having all T's stuff in his place. If he says he is, then that's the end of it. If he says he's not okay with it (at all, or just anymore), ask him how you can support him in setting some boundaries with T and then all three of you sit down and talk this out to see if there's a solution (maybe T renting a storage unit, or something like that).
posted by essexjan at 5:39 AM on November 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 5:39 AM on November 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
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I'd say it's poor boundaries and be pretty upset about it and put my foot down, but that doesn't mean your friend has to, or even wants to. They may like the stuff. They may really value this relationship. You are overstepping your boundaries by telling these people what to think about eachother and are upset when they disagree which is a seperate issue. You cannot be right here because it's not your buisness.
User in this context does have a degroatory meaning. If you want to use it, you can, but people can judge you for it regardless of the facts of the situation.
posted by AlexiaSky at 11:47 PM on November 6, 2020 [4 favorites]