Give money safely
October 26, 2020 5:40 PM Subscribe
What's the best way to give money to a stranger with likely addiction issues?
A few years ago, Pat died suddenly. Pat had struggled their whole life, didn't have many friends, and didn't have many material possessions nor much money. Pat had made a handwritten will leaving everything to Jamie, a person Pat had been romantically involved with. This was in Canada.
Jamie was in prison at the time of Pat's death, for unknown reasons. Jamie was much younger than Pat, had substance use issues, may have been street involved, and may have exchanged sex for money and drugs. It's not clear how serious their relationship was from Jamie's POV, but it was certainly serious enough for Pat to have had feelings. While imprisoned, Jamie may not have known that Pat died - Pat's phone number would just have stopped working and they may not have had many mutual friends who could have shared the news.
Pat's family sold Pat's household goods, kept every dollar, and put the money into a bank account to keep it aside for Jamie- about $4000 total. There are also a few boxes of Pat's papers and small sentimental possessions. Pat's family surname is unusual enough that they are all findable online, as is Pat's obituary, but Jamie hasn't come looking at all.
Jamie is likely out of prison now, based on a person with some matching details who joined Facebook recently. Pat's family would like to hand over the money and items, but they do not feel comfortable establishing a relationship with Jamie, mostly because they're concerned Jamie might feel Pat's estate should have been worth more money (it really wasn't), or that the money should have been handed over sooner (this would be a legitimate grievance, the family were just busy and their diligence for following up fell away over the course of a few years), and they don't know if Jamie would be a safe person to be in contact with.
The family also have some concern (which may be condescending?) about giving $4000 in cash to someone with low income and substance use history, as they don't want to contribute to triggering an addiction relapse. That's not an area they know a lot about- but they want to proceed in a way that isn't harmful to Jamie but also respects Jamie as an adult, and can be done with no contact. Advice would be appreciated.
What would be the best way to give Jamie the money and items?
A few years ago, Pat died suddenly. Pat had struggled their whole life, didn't have many friends, and didn't have many material possessions nor much money. Pat had made a handwritten will leaving everything to Jamie, a person Pat had been romantically involved with. This was in Canada.
Jamie was in prison at the time of Pat's death, for unknown reasons. Jamie was much younger than Pat, had substance use issues, may have been street involved, and may have exchanged sex for money and drugs. It's not clear how serious their relationship was from Jamie's POV, but it was certainly serious enough for Pat to have had feelings. While imprisoned, Jamie may not have known that Pat died - Pat's phone number would just have stopped working and they may not have had many mutual friends who could have shared the news.
Pat's family sold Pat's household goods, kept every dollar, and put the money into a bank account to keep it aside for Jamie- about $4000 total. There are also a few boxes of Pat's papers and small sentimental possessions. Pat's family surname is unusual enough that they are all findable online, as is Pat's obituary, but Jamie hasn't come looking at all.
Jamie is likely out of prison now, based on a person with some matching details who joined Facebook recently. Pat's family would like to hand over the money and items, but they do not feel comfortable establishing a relationship with Jamie, mostly because they're concerned Jamie might feel Pat's estate should have been worth more money (it really wasn't), or that the money should have been handed over sooner (this would be a legitimate grievance, the family were just busy and their diligence for following up fell away over the course of a few years), and they don't know if Jamie would be a safe person to be in contact with.
The family also have some concern (which may be condescending?) about giving $4000 in cash to someone with low income and substance use history, as they don't want to contribute to triggering an addiction relapse. That's not an area they know a lot about- but they want to proceed in a way that isn't harmful to Jamie but also respects Jamie as an adult, and can be done with no contact. Advice would be appreciated.
What would be the best way to give Jamie the money and items?
I think this is hard because you can be generous but most options risk being reckless and/or condescending. I think there's going to need to be at least a bit of brokering here, perhaps with a third party?
If Jamie has a driver's license or can obtain one quickly, a cheap old car could be an amazing gift if it is, indeed, wanted and needed. But again, someone would have to contact Jamie, go to the dealership to pay, help transfer the title, get insurance, etc. Additionally, setting up/prepaying housing could be even better. Both of these are lot of work but anything more than simply giving the money (not necessarily a good idea, I agree) is going to be work.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:10 PM on October 26, 2020
If Jamie has a driver's license or can obtain one quickly, a cheap old car could be an amazing gift if it is, indeed, wanted and needed. But again, someone would have to contact Jamie, go to the dealership to pay, help transfer the title, get insurance, etc. Additionally, setting up/prepaying housing could be even better. Both of these are lot of work but anything more than simply giving the money (not necessarily a good idea, I agree) is going to be work.
posted by smorgasbord at 6:10 PM on October 26, 2020
Honestly, most substance abuse issues are a problem of depression / society already failing them. $4000 is not a ton of money. Maybe it's enough to help them off the street. Maybe it's enough to have a crazy rush at a casino, a brief reprieve from an otherwise decrepit life. Maybe it's enough to buy a lot more substances to abuse... but no matter what, it's not really your business. It's been a long time - they could have turned their life around.
I would ask for proof that the person is the correct person. Photo ID would be best. Then I would either mail a check, mail cash, venmo, or ask jamie if they have a preferred method.
No doubt Jamie will think there's more money than that. Aside from your word, there's nothing they can do. Maybe instead of saying it's everything they had, just say "they left $4000 for you".
posted by bbqturtle at 6:17 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
I would ask for proof that the person is the correct person. Photo ID would be best. Then I would either mail a check, mail cash, venmo, or ask jamie if they have a preferred method.
No doubt Jamie will think there's more money than that. Aside from your word, there's nothing they can do. Maybe instead of saying it's everything they had, just say "they left $4000 for you".
posted by bbqturtle at 6:17 PM on October 26, 2020 [7 favorites]
If they don’t want contact with her, they could use an attorney as the contact.
posted by gt2 at 6:21 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by gt2 at 6:21 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
Pat's family would like to hand over the money and items
Sounds to me like this actually goes well beyond "Pat's family would like to" and into "the executor of Pat's will is legally obliged to".
they do not feel comfortable establishing a relationship with Jamie
Then whoever was named as the executor in Pat's will is going to need to pay somebody else to handle the transaction. Lawyers do this kind of thing all the time.
posted by flabdablet at 6:31 PM on October 26, 2020 [22 favorites]
Sounds to me like this actually goes well beyond "Pat's family would like to" and into "the executor of Pat's will is legally obliged to".
they do not feel comfortable establishing a relationship with Jamie
Then whoever was named as the executor in Pat's will is going to need to pay somebody else to handle the transaction. Lawyers do this kind of thing all the time.
posted by flabdablet at 6:31 PM on October 26, 2020 [22 favorites]
Unless the bequest specifically said to give it out in a controlled manner, you just get Jamie the funds. It's Jamie's money, not theirs.
or that the money should have been handed over sooner (this would be a legitimate grievance, the family were just busy and their diligence for following up fell away over the course of a few years)
Yeah, it really should have. Having a small stockpile of funds upon getting out of prison might have made the difference between being homeless or having to go into an unsafe living situation that will lead to the same problems the custodians of the money are worried about.
posted by Candleman at 6:59 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]
or that the money should have been handed over sooner (this would be a legitimate grievance, the family were just busy and their diligence for following up fell away over the course of a few years)
Yeah, it really should have. Having a small stockpile of funds upon getting out of prison might have made the difference between being homeless or having to go into an unsafe living situation that will lead to the same problems the custodians of the money are worried about.
posted by Candleman at 6:59 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]
Unless I’m missing something these are Jamie’s assets - they just don’t know that yet, which could generate risk to you if they jamie feels this has been inappropriately hidden from them or otherwise mishandled. I’d strongly suggest to avoid further risk to the family get a lawyer involved. You could also consider / have the lawyer just hand over directly with an offer to help Jamie if needed as a goodwill measure. Maybe something like the below
“Jamie. You were really important in Pat’s life and they have left you something in their will for you. They have left you $x and possessions a,b, and c. Because we loved Pat, it is important to us that we offer to help you as well. We understand you have been though difficult times, and in the spirit of honoring Pat’s legacy, is there anything we can do so you get the most benefit from this gift? - we’d be happy to help you arrange a bank account if you don’t have one as example, or have you discuss with a community lawyer if accepting this gift causes any asset/ benefit related issues. If none of that applies or you don’t need our help - we understand and that is ok. Here is the $ and possessions, and we hope they help you and you find joy in Pat’s gift. Thank you for being so important to Pat.”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:26 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]
“Jamie. You were really important in Pat’s life and they have left you something in their will for you. They have left you $x and possessions a,b, and c. Because we loved Pat, it is important to us that we offer to help you as well. We understand you have been though difficult times, and in the spirit of honoring Pat’s legacy, is there anything we can do so you get the most benefit from this gift? - we’d be happy to help you arrange a bank account if you don’t have one as example, or have you discuss with a community lawyer if accepting this gift causes any asset/ benefit related issues. If none of that applies or you don’t need our help - we understand and that is ok. Here is the $ and possessions, and we hope they help you and you find joy in Pat’s gift. Thank you for being so important to Pat.”
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:26 PM on October 26, 2020 [9 favorites]
The addiction is assumed, not documented. The money could be a huge boost, an apartment deposit, a car to get to work, survival through the mess of Covid times. So, find Jamie, bestow the inheritance, try to assume the best.
posted by theora55 at 7:35 PM on October 26, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 7:35 PM on October 26, 2020 [13 favorites]
Pat's family would like to hand over the money and items, but they do not feel comfortable establishing a relationship with Jamie, mostly because they're concerned Jamie might feel Pat's estate should have been worth more money (it really wasn't), or that the money should have been handed over sooner (this would be a legitimate grievance, the family were just busy and their diligence for following up fell away over the course of a few years), and they don't know if Jamie would be a safe person to be in contact with.
People hire lawyers for this sort of thing. The lawyer doesn't even have to say Pat's family was involved in getting the lawyer. Provide something nice for the lawyer to say or a nice message to pass on. The lawyer can say Jamie is being left this specific sum of money (true) rather than "everything".
Unless there is some sort of issue with things getting messed up with someone's public assistance if they take the money all at once (if this is a possibility I'd mention it to the lawyer and have them do whatever needs to be done), just give the money all at once as Pat wished. Many people are able to make changes in their lives with a lump sum, I think there have been studies done where homeless people were given lump sums in similar amounts (no cite handy, sorry).
The family also have some concern (which may be condescending?) about giving $4000 in cash to someone with low income
People have touched on the condescension around drug use here, but concern about giving cash to someone with low income? Condescending and classist. Please have a professional handle this so Jamie won't have to be faced with these attitudes.
posted by yohko at 9:26 PM on October 26, 2020 [8 favorites]
People hire lawyers for this sort of thing. The lawyer doesn't even have to say Pat's family was involved in getting the lawyer. Provide something nice for the lawyer to say or a nice message to pass on. The lawyer can say Jamie is being left this specific sum of money (true) rather than "everything".
Unless there is some sort of issue with things getting messed up with someone's public assistance if they take the money all at once (if this is a possibility I'd mention it to the lawyer and have them do whatever needs to be done), just give the money all at once as Pat wished. Many people are able to make changes in their lives with a lump sum, I think there have been studies done where homeless people were given lump sums in similar amounts (no cite handy, sorry).
The family also have some concern (which may be condescending?) about giving $4000 in cash to someone with low income
People have touched on the condescension around drug use here, but concern about giving cash to someone with low income? Condescending and classist. Please have a professional handle this so Jamie won't have to be faced with these attitudes.
posted by yohko at 9:26 PM on October 26, 2020 [8 favorites]
Make sure you have the right Jamie, it sounds a little bit like it might just be a good guess? And it wouldn't be uncommon for such characters to not really know last/full names or maybe even actual real name. I know quite a few people from my homeless/street days that I only know of by a name and I have no clue what their legal name might be.
If Pat was of sound mind when writing the will, honor it. That there seems to be some physical objects makes it sound like Pat knew Jamie would want them (or would immediately pawn them, whatever). Sadly it sorta seems like a lawyer or a PI or whatnot would be a not-small chunk out of that $4k. I'm not sure there's a reason why those expenses wouldn't come out of the funds left (I doubt you can make family pony up big money to satisfy your small request). So if Pat's family want's to be obnoxious, they can probably spend it on trying to get it to Jamie. Don't be like that. Just find Jamie and give them their due from dearly departed Pat.
posted by zengargoyle at 10:18 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
If Pat was of sound mind when writing the will, honor it. That there seems to be some physical objects makes it sound like Pat knew Jamie would want them (or would immediately pawn them, whatever). Sadly it sorta seems like a lawyer or a PI or whatnot would be a not-small chunk out of that $4k. I'm not sure there's a reason why those expenses wouldn't come out of the funds left (I doubt you can make family pony up big money to satisfy your small request). So if Pat's family want's to be obnoxious, they can probably spend it on trying to get it to Jamie. Don't be like that. Just find Jamie and give them their due from dearly departed Pat.
posted by zengargoyle at 10:18 PM on October 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Jamie's addiction issues are not anyone else's business. Please execute the will and dispense the money.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:49 AM on October 27, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 2:49 AM on October 27, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think the family is really confused here.
They are treating this like it’s their own extra money. It’s not. I understand this letter wasn’t a legally binding will (no witnesssed signatures) but it seems to me that ethically they have treated it and should continue to treat it that way.
They need to make sure Pat’s affairs are settled (taxes and all outstanding debts are cleared - they should have gotten a certificate of clearance from Revenue Canada) and that they have paid any taxes — the amount they have been keeping seems tiny but FYI they should have been filing taxes on it — and then execute the bequest. Probably not a big deal but I’m trying to impress that this is not a donation to “do the most good.” This is Pat’s estate passing to Pat’s beneficiary.
This is super important because if they miss any debts they can be held liable even if the funds have been given away. They can charge any expenses to the estate. If they were formally going to probate they would also be entitled to 5% as an executive’s fee. Under no circumstances should they buy a car with the estate’s money.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:03 AM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
They are treating this like it’s their own extra money. It’s not. I understand this letter wasn’t a legally binding will (no witnesssed signatures) but it seems to me that ethically they have treated it and should continue to treat it that way.
They need to make sure Pat’s affairs are settled (taxes and all outstanding debts are cleared - they should have gotten a certificate of clearance from Revenue Canada) and that they have paid any taxes — the amount they have been keeping seems tiny but FYI they should have been filing taxes on it — and then execute the bequest. Probably not a big deal but I’m trying to impress that this is not a donation to “do the most good.” This is Pat’s estate passing to Pat’s beneficiary.
This is super important because if they miss any debts they can be held liable even if the funds have been given away. They can charge any expenses to the estate. If they were formally going to probate they would also be entitled to 5% as an executive’s fee. Under no circumstances should they buy a car with the estate’s money.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:03 AM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
I understand this letter wasn’t a legally binding will (no witnesssed signatures)
As it was handwritten, it might well be legally binding as a holographic will, depending on the jurisdiction.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:11 AM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
As it was handwritten, it might well be legally binding as a holographic will, depending on the jurisdiction.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:11 AM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
Good point, I looked it up and it probably would be in Ontario; not sure where the OP is. In that case the family would have some obligations around notification as well.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:13 AM on October 27, 2020
posted by warriorqueen at 9:13 AM on October 27, 2020
I agree with all the answers that this is Jamie's money and needs to be handed over in the entirety as soon as possible.
I also want to push back against the paternalistic assumption that giving a lump sum might induce bad decision making. Here's a summary of a recent study showing the opposite after giving $7500 to homeless people (note that people with severe substance use issues were not included in this study but the authors plan to include them in follow up studies).
"The study, though small, offers a counter to the myths that people who become poor get that way because they’re bad at rational decision-making and self-control, and are thus intrinsically to blame for their situation, and that people getting free money will blow it on frivolous things or addictive substances. Studies have consistently shown that cash transfers don’t increase the consumption of “temptation goods”; they either decrease it or have no effect on it."
posted by orchidee at 4:26 AM on October 28, 2020
I also want to push back against the paternalistic assumption that giving a lump sum might induce bad decision making. Here's a summary of a recent study showing the opposite after giving $7500 to homeless people (note that people with severe substance use issues were not included in this study but the authors plan to include them in follow up studies).
"The study, though small, offers a counter to the myths that people who become poor get that way because they’re bad at rational decision-making and self-control, and are thus intrinsically to blame for their situation, and that people getting free money will blow it on frivolous things or addictive substances. Studies have consistently shown that cash transfers don’t increase the consumption of “temptation goods”; they either decrease it or have no effect on it."
posted by orchidee at 4:26 AM on October 28, 2020
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Something that might be a legitimate concern, however, is that some social services will cut you off for having or getting any money. I know people in Canada who lost services because of a gofundme for a housing emergency, and a family member helping with a car payment also created some issues (that might have gone unnoticed if they hadn't been honest about it, I don't know for sure). It's possible Jamie might have to refuse to claim the money (refusing provide an address to your PI or lawyer or whatever) or will try to ask for it in cash or otherwise under the table. It would take some extra effort probably to make that happen, but I would try to find a solution if it was my responsibility.
posted by Lyn Never at 6:08 PM on October 26, 2020 [10 favorites]