Restraining order? WTF?
March 21, 2006 7:39 PM   Subscribe

Must the target of a restraining order be made aware of that restraining order?

After deciding to contact an old flame who had, years ago, asked me not to contact her again, tonight I received a phone message from a police officer in the town where she evidently lives now, reminding me that I had just gone against that request she had made in 2002 (in a completely different jurisdiction), and that any further contact with her could result in arrest for harassment. The officer also mentioned a restraining order that had been secured against me in the previous jurisdiction, and that it still applied even though this girl now lives in an entirely different state. I am awaiting a call back from this officer, who I hope will provide me with some further clarification, but his reference in the first call to a restraining order came as a complete surprise.

I'm not interested in this response: Why did you contact her if you knew she didn't want you to contact her?

Years ago, she had told me she didn't want to have anything to do with me. Over the last five years, she has regularly visited my blog—more recently, attempting to do so through an anonymous service that doesn't work as well as she thinks. I've objected all along to being told to leave her alone while she has continued seemingly conducting surveillance on me, and this week I decided enough was enough. Part of me thinks it's paranoiac of me to suggest she's been spying on me all this time, watching to see what I'll do. But if what she's been doing hasn't been some form of surveillance, of checking up on me periodically, I can't think of any other reason that someone who requested I leave her alone, and who then went so far as to seek a restraining order against me, would be so keenly interested in what I'm up to—and would try to be so sneaky about it, snooping around "anonymously."

Obviously, I've learned a lesson: don't do that again. Got it. But apart from that, what can/should I do? Is it reasonable for me to request a copy of any documentation this officer or the officer who originally handled her case might have? It seems rather unfair that, for however many years (I don't know when the restraining order was requested, and it has been about five years since this girl and I last talked) I have been unaware of exactly how much trouble I could cause for myself.
posted by anonymous to Law & Government (43 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
You neglected to provide some key info (locales), and most of your explanation is irrelevant to your question. If you want a definitive answer, consult an attorney in your jurisdiction or talk to your local police department.

Having said that, I'll offer best-guess speculation that whoever telephoned you gave you bum info. Yes, the subject of a restraining order must be served; and no, it's not likely that if she obtained a restraining order in 2002 while living in another state, that that restraining order would carry effect today.

What should you do? You should forget about it. Move on. If you want to confirm the information you've been told and determine exactly whether you can contact her without incurring legal penalty, you need to hire an attorney. You should not do that. You should shrug and move on with your life.
posted by cribcage at 7:59 PM on March 21, 2006

And, by the way, if she is afraid of you (as the restraining order suggests, if it exists) then she has very good reasons to check up on you periodically and use an anonymizing service.
posted by unSane at 7:59 PM on March 21, 2006 [1 favorite]

I'm with unSane. Doesn't make any sense to me.

However... and don't take this the wrong way, please, but is it possible you forgot about it? I can only speak from experience and say that the one person I know who has a restraining order against him has one because he is, um, mentally deficient (and prone to violence)--he forgets rather significant things like the restraining order all the time.
posted by dobbs at 7:59 PM on March 21, 2006

How sure are you that it was a cop that contacted you? It could be BS.
posted by NortonDC at 8:07 PM on March 21, 2006

1)I am curious in what way you tried to contact her. Care to elaborate?

2)I am not convinced this is a real police officer. Did this officer give you his name and work phone number. If not request this info along with his badge number. Call and make sure he's real and/or legitimately doing this on work time. If this is some bullshit favor for a friend, I'd file a complaint.

3)I would most definitely ask to see the restraining order. Wouldn't something like this have to be "served" on you. How can you issue a restraining order with the restrainee knowing about it. I'm also doubtful about the validity of a restraining order in a completely different state.

Yes...something is rotten in Denmark.
posted by bim at 8:08 PM on March 21, 2006

I would get documentation, if for no other reason than to make sure you are not inadvertantly violating some sort of order.

Also, how many times on AskMe does someone half-jokingly suggest the "have someone pretend to be a cop/lawyer/whatever" ploy to get a desired reaction? Find out if this guy is even really a cop.

You two sound like you're one-upping each other for control of the situation. Consider dropping it before someone tries to "win" by doing something even more foolish or paranoid.
posted by desuetude at 8:10 PM on March 21, 2006

What should you do? I would just let it drop, if the situation was tense enough that she would try to get a restraining order, from your end it wouldn't be in your best interest to contact her. And even if it wasn't a police officer, what would knowing it wasn't do?

Backing away would be your best bet, and if you're worried about your blog, either start a new one, or look into banning ip addresses from viewing it.
posted by drezdn at 8:13 PM on March 21, 2006

She obviously has a good reason to use an anonymizing service to read your blog, since you're digging around in your server logs looking for her IP address. Why?

Dude, she can read your blog if she wants. If you don't want her reading it, don't have a publicly accessible blog. Insisting that someone stop reading your online journal seems kindof highschool.
posted by crabintheocean at 8:28 PM on March 21, 2006

This is not legal advice. This is also an answer to the question you asked, rather than nagging you about what you did or did not do.

You can't have a permanent restraining order entered against you unless you are served with a notice of hearing. She can go to court and get a temporary restraining order against you that is in effect for the 2 weeks or so until there can be a hearing. During that time, a sheriff serves you with the temp and notice of hearing. At the hearing, either a permanent restraining order is entered or the case is dismissed.

If you received service and were indeed notified of a hearing, the judge can enter a restraining order even if you don't show up - the judge can assume that everything alleged against you is true. If you did NOT receive service and a restraining order was entered against you, then you were denied due process. RO's are quite serious and can have a lot of implications in terms of appearing on background checks, loss of right to possess firearms, etc.
posted by gatorae at 8:50 PM on March 21, 2006

I've realized the irony of posting this question anonymously.

I'm the original poster. Hi.

To answer some questions:

1)I am curious in what way you tried to contact her. Care to elaborate?

Like I explained above, I had had enough of her frequent anonymous browsing and curious interest in me in light of saying she wanted nothing to do with me. It was hard to take her request in 2002 not to contact her (and threat to get the police involved) seriously when she paid such close attention to what I was doing, and often did so in such a manner so that she wouldn't be detected (or so she thought). But let it slide for several years until recently, when I wrote her a short—but in no means hostile—e-mail that explained how I was aware of what she was doing and how I wished she would stop. Part of me felt her continued interest in what I'm up to might mean she wanted to talk to me again, so I told her I would welcome the opportunity if that's what she wanted. I honestly didn't expect to hear from her again, and I certainly didn't expect to hear from a police officer instead. I don't really have a problem with her (or anyone else I know) finding and reading a blog I maintain—I wouldn't provide a way for people to find me if I didn't like the idea of people looking me up—but the fact she wanted nothing to do with me and hoped I wouldn't be able to find out she'd been visiting has bothered me.

2)I am not convinced this is a real police officer. Did this officer give you his name and work phone number. If not request this info along with his badge number. Call and make sure he's real and/or legitimately doing this on work time. If this is some bullshit favor for a friend, I'd file a complaint.

The phone number the officer left on my voice mail was the main number for the police department in the town where she lives. The officer was not available when I called him back, but the dispatcher recognized the officer's name and patched me through to his voice mail. The voice in the officer's voice mail greeting matched the voice who left the message for me. Real police officer.

3)I would most definitely ask to see the restraining order. Wouldn't something like this have to be "served" on you. How can you issue a restraining order with the restrainee knowing about it. I'm also doubtful about the validity of a restraining order in a completely different state.

I will be consulting with an attorney about this, and when the officer calls back I will ask about receiving copies of any pertinent documents. The cursory search I just did reveals that, in most cases, both parties need to be aware of the restraining order in order for it to take effect. There are some exceptions in domestic violence cases where someone can seek a restraining order against someone else without notification, it looks like, but that doesn't apply here. Apparently I can't violate a restraining order I don't know about, and I was never served with any documents or called into court for any kind of hearing. I am guessing she was in northern Virginia at the time she sought a restraining order, and she now lives in Connecticut. I have lived in Richmond, VA all along. I know nothing about the statute of limitations or if a move to a new state would create a legal hurdle.
posted by emelenjr at 8:50 PM on March 21, 2006

If she lives in a different area now, and you're tracking IP addresses, how can you be so sure it's she who is visiting your blog?

At any rate, what the others are saying. Let it go. Don't think so much about who is visiting your blog and why. If the officer (or "officer") does contact you, go ahead and ask for documentation, reference numbers, whatever, but don't pursue the matter any further, and of course don't contact her again. (And though you're probably tempted, I wouldn't post any taunting remarks on your blog about this. Let the drama die.)
posted by Gator at 8:53 PM on March 21, 2006

Huh. Looking at your blog now that you've de-anonymized, I see it's too late for that last bit of advice.
posted by Gator at 8:55 PM on March 21, 2006

OK, restraining orders are very much a local issue, so you would be well-served to consult with an attorney on this issue.

Your best move after that is to just let go. Don't call or email her, don't pursue any other legal action (unless you're just trying to clear up your own record), don't go sniffing around for her ISP address, etc. If she took legal action against you, the relationship is over for good and that will never change. Chalk it up to "temporary insanity" and get on with your life.
posted by MrZero at 9:27 PM on March 21, 2006

Emelenjr, you are a piece of work. This paragraph of explanation reveals a genuinely freakish state of mind on your part:

Like I explained above, I had had enough of her frequent anonymous browsing and curious interest in me in light of saying she wanted nothing to do with me. It was hard to take her request in 2002 not to contact her (and threat to get the police involved) seriously when she paid such close attention to what I was doing, and often did so in such a manner so that she wouldn't be detected (or so she thought). But let it slide for several years until recently, when I wrote her a short—but in no means hostile—e-mail that explained how I was aware of what she was doing and how I wished she would stop.

Let me get this straight. You publish a blog on the World Wide Web, and you somehow hold it against her that she is reading the damned thing? Your statements, "I had had enough of her ... browsing" but that you "let it slide for several years" suggest a real disconnect from reality on your part. Your statements make about as much sense as, if you were a newspaper columnist, saying "I had had enough of her reading my column, but I let it slide."

It is not, under any reasonable interpretation of the word, "surveillance" for her to read a blog that you publish for everyone in the world to see. Closer to surveillance is your pathetic combing of your server logs to see if she has visited your blog recently.

And your use of her visits to your blog as an excuse to violate a restraining order is laughable. From what you've told us about yourself so far, her efforts to anonymize herself were with good reason.
posted by jayder at 9:35 PM on March 21, 2006

You can't stop her from looking at your website. You put it out there to read. She's not contacting you, so you have no reason to get a restraining order against him.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:39 PM on March 21, 2006

Someone may have many reasons for reading your public blog. It is NOT an invitation to contact them.

Trust the instincts of me and the others in this thread. You're off-base here. You need to just let this go.
posted by vacapinta at 9:40 PM on March 21, 2006

Side note: If you're putting a lot of weight on the fact that the visitor's ISP matches the girl's e-mail address, don't. SBC>AT&T>SNET is one of very few Connecticut DSL options, in my experience; you'll find a lot of Connecticut people using that provider -- it's not like a small-time niche provider that could actually be a clue. The Connecticut person who's reading your blog might easily have nothing at all to do with the girl, except for the Connecticut part.
posted by booksandlibretti at 9:42 PM on March 21, 2006

Your freakish aversion to her reading your public blog seems like reason enough to get a restraining order. It doesn't make any sense, and your paranoiac attempts to identify her reading are very very strange.
posted by xmutex at 10:26 PM on March 21, 2006

No, I don't hold it against her that she reads the thing. I hold it against her that she reads the thing, publicly saying "I don't want to have anything to do with you" and privately saying "I sure hope he can't see me doing this." I called her on her double standard, and a police officer called me back.
posted by emelenjr at 10:28 PM on March 21, 2006

You're right. The double standard sucks. So what?
Ditch the blog and start a new one if you don't want this chick reading about you.

Why did she file a restraining order against you in the first place? You honestly don't know?
You should have been served with a copy of the order, and there should be legal proof that you were actually served.

But if I were you, I'd scrap the blog. It's just a blog, you can start another one. Restraining orders are strange sometimes. They're fairly simple to do which kind of sucks, because they can cause a lot of trouble.
posted by drstein at 10:35 PM on March 21, 2006

booksandlibretti, that's a good point to consider, but I don't know anyone in Connecticut but her. I find it hard to believe a total stranger to me living in Connecticut would repeatedly use search engines to 1) look for web pages with references to "my name" and "blog" and 2) attempt to do so anonymously... or have any reason to, for that matter.

Everyone who thinks I'm making too big a deal out of this is absolutely right. This has been a nagging problem for far too long, and my most recent attempt to contact her after four years was my way of trying to end it.

Again, I know nothing about a restraining order. Our last direct contact was an e-mail exchange in 2002. I have never been served with any legal documents or asked to appear in court. I would have welcomed the opportunity, if it had meant getting to hear her side of the story.
posted by emelenjr at 10:46 PM on March 21, 2006

I find it hard to believe a total stranger to me living in Connecticut would repeatedly use search engines to 1) look for web pages with references to "my name" and "blog" and 2) attempt to do so anonymously... or have any reason to, for that matter.

I'm not so sure: I thought this is pretty much exactly what Google and the net in general has allowed people to do, and they do so wantonly. Ex significant others especially. I think you just need to accept it as part of the territory and let it go.
posted by xmutex at 10:48 PM on March 21, 2006

Accepting your story at face value, she's a psycho-bitch who may have lied to her local police about a restraining order. Leave her alone. Consider dropping the blog and starting one harder for her to find. The less she knows, the better off you are.
posted by Goofyy at 11:34 PM on March 21, 2006

Second the "Ditch this blog and start another" thought. Wash your hands of her, it, the whole thing. You can then stop checking your logs and worrying about it. But just to round things out for you legally, follow up with the cop and the request for documentation on the restraining order that you didn't know about and then... let it die.

Also, don't use your real name or any common nicks or handles she'd know you by, and you'll make her Googlecapades much more difficult.
posted by jerseygirl at 4:06 AM on March 22, 2006

your use of her visits to your blog as an excuse to violate a restraining order is laughable

He didn't know the restraining order existed, hello.

You can't stop her from looking at your website.

Yes he can. Block her ISP if it bothers you that she's keeping tabs on you.

I have 2 female acquaintances who took restraining orders out on ex-boyfriends under false pretenses. They were angry at being dumped & were not victims of abuse, nor had any reason to fear for their safety. Both guys moved to the west coast to attend university, which is why they broke up with these two girls.

So I second Goofyy's advice: she sounds a little weird, drop it, maybe get a new blog, and avoid any contact with her
posted by zarah at 4:12 AM on March 22, 2006

It's not unheard of for process servers to file false proofs in an attempt to get more work in, or so a retired cop that I worked with told me.

It's possible that the person charged with serving your papers never found you (or never even tried). You're right on to get a lawyer.

And you know this, but you need to try something new to get that girl out of your head.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:22 AM on March 22, 2006

Thanks for the clarification, poster.

1)I am still willing to give the poster the benefit of the doubt, guys. Women can be just a psycho as men. This gal seems a little nuts to me -- from what we've heard. I'm not absolving the poster of anything. I don't know him. But let's try to be even handed.

2)Don't folks with web pages track who visits their site. So what if the poster was a little curious? I bet we've all been a little "curious" about whatever and have noodled around on the internet as a result. The internet is chock full of curious people. ;)

3)I don't think sending her a single email, if that's the case, was outrageous.

4)I DO agree that it is pointless to have any expectations whatsoever of having any kind of relationship, casual or otherwise, with this woman. Give it up.

5)Get the lawyer. Find out if the restraining order exists. Given it's most likely bullshit, I'd then file a complaint etc. against this officer for overstepping the bounds of his job.

Good luck.
posted by bim at 5:08 AM on March 22, 2006

I've decided to shut it down. I'm busy with other projects anyway, and I ran out of steam on that blog long ago. It usually only received a handful of visitors a week—at least until yesterday/early this morning when all of MeFi seemed to descend upon it at once.

I never wanted to take any drastic measures like disguising my name or blocking IP addresses to keep her or anyone else out of that site because I didn't see the point of hiding what I was doing. I didn't do a whole lot of advertising the thing, but it's not as if that site was some secret project. So when people were secretive about reading it, it seemed to me they thought they were doing something wrong and didn't want to get caught, which I found really bizarre.

Anyway, I still question the existence and validity of the restraining order I found out about last night, and I'm hoping the police officer will call me back with more information. If anyone can recommend someone in my area who could offer some free legal advice, I'd appreciate that. I don't even know where to turn. I don't know if I should contact a court clerk in northern Virginia somewhere to find out about the original restraining order, or see what I can turn up in Connecticut, or what.
posted by emelenjr at 5:24 AM on March 22, 2006

If somebody took out a restraining order against me, and I honestly didn't know why, I would:

a) never want to talk to them again anyway... clearly they're not interested in the conversation anyway

b) hire a lawyer to find out how a false restraining order could alter my life, and determine if I'd be well-served to fight it.

After all... if it does nothing, then who cares? But if it would mean you're guaranteed not to get custody of your children in event of a divorce... then that sucker needs to get cleared up before such an issue arises.
posted by I Love Tacos at 6:14 AM on March 22, 2006

I know a number of people that, despite all of their claims to the contrary, make some attempt to determine what their ex is up to. Sometimes it's due to a paranoia that they'll accidentally run into them in person, other times it's a curiosity and fear that the other person is somehow doing "better." Neither is healthy. Unless you need specific data on who's checking your blog for some other reason, don't check. At least not at an individual host level -- use the aggregated numbers.

If she was commenting on your public blog, I would recommend mentioning this harassment and possibly filing a report. However, it sounds like she's just looking (or you are assuming she is based on logs), which is a hazard of having a public page. The best option is to put it out of your mind. What, if anything, do you lose if she is looking? What does she have to gain, small bits of information about some random guy who isn't really relevant to her life? Move on.
posted by mikeh at 7:45 AM on March 22, 2006

Well, in future, if you do start another blog or online project, and you see the OMG CONNECTICUT IP ADDRESS again, really, really, avoid the temptation of making another "ah-ha, I see you" post about it. It just adds to the drama and I thought it made you look like you almost enjoyed the attention, kind of.

I still don't see how you can be sure that it was she who was visiting. When I look at my server logs, and see an IP address from a neighboring state, I don't automatically assume it's my psychotic ex, and even if it was, hey, more ad impressions for me.
posted by Gator at 8:19 AM on March 22, 2006

No, no comments, just references in the logs over the last several years. Enough of them with extremely specific search terms, enough of them often over the course of one day and enough of them coming from the IP addresses of various employers so that I have little doubt of who the visitors have been. We went to school together and know many of the same people. I've been able to pick up a thing or two about her, too, although not from staking out a personal web site. I realize I could be wrong about these latest anonymous visits from Connecticut, but they definitely fit the profile and her m.o.

I'm not suggesting that what she has done amounts to harassment, because I'm not hypersensitive like that. Plus, I really don't feel like fighting her. It just amounts to weird, kind of hypocritical behavior on her part that I was hoping I would be able to stop.

Anyway, now I'm just waiting for that police officer to call back.

And I have to say that last night's knee-jerk reactions about the possibility that the cop wasn't really a cop after all made me laugh on an otherwise crummy night. Thanks. And thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions.
posted by emelenjr at 8:43 AM on March 22, 2006

If I had a restraining order against someone of course I would read their blog. Duh. I would absolutely want to know what they were up too, just out of curiosity. I don't think that's unusual at all.

Also, could you explain how you're so certain that this girl is the one visiting your site via the anonymous proxy? It sounds like it could just be paranoia. Although if it's just one person using the proxy, I could see why you would be suspicious, but you really have no proof, and there's not really anything you can do to stop her from reading it.

Why not ban the anonymous proxy service from accessing your site via an .htaccess file?
posted by delmoi at 9:09 AM on March 22, 2006

Okay, it looks like you did explain why you thought it was her. Anyway, you took down the blog, which obviously solves the problem :P
posted by delmoi at 9:19 AM on March 22, 2006

Quick suggestion. use LiveJournal. you can restrict posts to certain people etc.

and you know what? Total strangers from around the world who don't know me keep an eye on my blog. Simply because they like reading it. It happens, you know!
posted by badlydubbedboy at 9:54 AM on March 22, 2006

Well, my answer would be to get a copy of the restraining order and put it on the blog, with your personal explanation of why the restraining order exists. Since everyone already KNOWS there's one now, you have little to lose by doing this, and you'll probably let her know that it's time she backed off.

If she doesn't back off, another post to the blog with some solid facts on what ramifications contact from the restrainee has on a restraining order might do it. I'm no lawyer, but I'm certain a judge would not look well on someone who gets a restraining order put on someone, then further taunts them over it. If it turns out her viewing of your blog could jeapordize the restraining order, assuming she's rational, she'll back off.

But yes, your next action HAS to be receiving a copy of the restraining order. Just IMHO, of course. I'd probably ask for court transcripts on the case as well... but that's me. I'm curious like that. :-)
posted by shepd at 9:58 AM on March 22, 2006

I just went through the restraining order process with someone. It seemed pretty easy for a woman to get the order with no verification that she was in any danger whatsoever, or that she had been threatened or harassed. She declared that she felt threatened, and got the order. It was granted with 'no finding of abuse,' so hopefully it will not affect the guy's future too badly. It is time-limited, in this case 2 years. I've seen this from both sides, please let's not have a flamewar.

If there is a restraining order against you, you need to know. A restraining order affects you ability to own a gun, and might affect other parts of your life. Violating an order is no small thing.

A restraining order means that you may not have any contact with the person. I think it's unreasonable for the person to contact you, and using your blog is still contact. So use the means available to restrict access, and then move forward with your life. Don't contact her in any way. If you absolutely must contact her to say please leave me alone, that must go through a lawyer. But it's better to not have any contact.
posted by theora55 at 10:36 AM on March 22, 2006

Stop contacting her and stop doing whatever you did that led her to a. want you out of her life and b. get a restraining order. That said I would demand information from the police on this. You should be aware of such a legal matter.

I'll hold my opinions on your behavior to myself because I only know half of the story. I do find it odd if what you say is true about her browsing your site. At the same time, however, you may have simply crossed her mind and curiousity got to her.

For her part, receiving one e-mail after several years is a pretty silly thing to get the police involved over, even if there IS an existing restraining order. This is assuming you didn't beat, rape, or do something similarly terrible to her.
posted by rob paxon at 1:56 PM on March 22, 2006

Update: There's no restraining order against me filed where I've lived all this time, nor the county in Virginia where she used to live, nor the county in Connecticut where she lives now. Court clerks offices are my friends, so far.

I am still waiting for a call back from the officer at the West Haven, CT Police Department. I've now left two messages with him since his first call.
posted by emelenjr at 12:17 PM on March 23, 2006

3 weekdays and no call... from a police officer? That sounds a bit out of line.

I'd ask to speak with his sergeant at this point, or anyone else (partner, etc) that is actually in the office. A matter like this should be DEAD simple for ANY officer there to verify.
posted by shepd at 10:32 AM on March 24, 2006

I'm not interested in blocking IP addresses, in the same way I said above I never saw the need to blog under a different name or anything else I could've done to cloak myself—because I saw no reason to hide what I was doing. It's not the act of finding me and reading about me I'm ticked off about—anyone can do that, I don't care—it's the anonymity (or attempt at it) in conjunction with previously saying she wanted nothing to do with me. Perhaps there really are cases to be made for surfing web sites anonymously, but as far as this case goes, my feeling is that if that ex-girlfriend of mine truly felt it wasn't somehow hypocritical, intrusive and kind of sketchy of her to take an interest in what I was doing after severing ties with me in 2001, she wouldn't see any reason to hide her actions. I would rather have had to deal with comments on that blog like, "Yeah, I'm reading your web site. So what?" instead of the way she chose to conduct herself.

I called the officer (whose last name rhymes with errata, which amuses me to no end) again on Friday afternoon, this time leaving a message about the information—or lack of it—I'd been able to track down about myself. No call back so far.
posted by emelenjr at 8:32 PM on March 25, 2006

WCityMike, I have listened to the comments here. I took the blog down, thereby preventing anyone at all from viewing it. I contacted an attorney here in Richmond who echoed much of what's already been said by the other posters in this thread. I also contacted the appropriate courts in the city of Richmond, VA, in Fairfax County, VA and in New Haven County, CT, none of which was able to verify the claim the police officer from the ex-girlfriend's town made in his phone message to me. I've made three attempts to contact that officer, who said I should call back because he wanted to talk to me to hear my side of the story, but have not heard from him since that first phone message. I've given up.

But you're right. I wouldn't have given up the anonymity in this thread if I hadn't wanted to attempt to get my point across. I suppose I was looking for some validation.
posted by emelenjr at 3:35 PM on March 30, 2006

More importantly, I was looking for advice from other MeFi users, and appreciate all of it.
posted by emelenjr at 3:37 PM on March 30, 2006

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