Which is worse, homeschooling or distanced learning?
September 11, 2020 3:19 PM Subscribe
Distanced learning is failing our kid who has ADHD; to stem the dent to his education, we are considering disenrolling him, and homeschooling him until this shit ends. Is this a bad idea or a terrible idea (we're well aware neither option is good).
I've been unemployed since Covid hit, UI is running out, and I had to take a suboptimal job, which can't be done remotely and isn't the safest. It is, unfortunately, exactly during school hours. My wife is working remotely from inside the home, but unable to necessarily hover over kid to help with distanced learning. Kid is starting to do 3rd grade remotely, and has pretty intense ADHD. We can't afford any kind of safe childcare (is there safe childcare out of the home?), and we can't get any sort of tutor.
The distanced learning setup is bad. It's really bad. Both the lack of instruction, and the actual digital tools they've giving the kids to do the work is basically making even small, 'easy' assignments a huge ordeal over here, even though the kid can functionally do the work, the architecture and lack of instruction just nukes the whole deal. Last spring when the kids when distanced, things were pretty bad and we were hoping that the school was going to...uh, work on it over the summer. This clearly hasn't really happened in any meaningful, impactful way. The technology is buggy as shit, the teachers, wonderful as they are, aren't educated on how to use the systems themselves, and our kid just can't do this without a lot of hands on supervision.
We just had an IEP meeting this morning after it became apparent that this wasn't going well (again), and the school basically threw up their hands and said 'we're doing what we can, this isn't ideal, but we're not legally allowed to tell you in what areas we're failing.' They have to tow the line that things might go to a 'hybrid model this winter' but...there's just no way. It's not going to happen, and its not going to be safe if it does. We're sympathetic to how hard this is for educators, but it's just not going to work for our kid to do this, and we don't know how to function.
In a moment of frustration I said that we might just disenroll him and homeschool him until this all blows over. After the initial shock of getting to that point wore off, my wife and I actually considered the possibility. We figure since we're going to have to put in the labor to actually school him, we may as well disengage from the (impossible for us) schedules that the school is proposing, and having him do some schooling in the mornings, evenings and on weekends. The only hurdle is that we're not educators, and we're not from homeschooler stock. We don't know if this is just setting the kid up for further deficits in the long run. He's already socially isolated. So are we. The emotional impacts of this aren't going to be helped much by distanced learning, we're just trying to hold back the tide and maintain his education until he can resume school in person (and probably have therapy forever). This is an emotionally fraught task, because I believe strongly in our educational institutions, and don't believe homeschooling is a good thing for kids. This goes against every single humanist, collectivist bone in my body.
What resources are out there for Covid homeschooling? I am very atheist and can't hang with religious oriented home school culture or materials (which is complicating this research project). Secular resources are a must here and I can't really budge on that, not even an inch.
Again, we're aware its not a great plan, but we don't feel like we have many other options. Our kid was already running at a deficit in a few areas (he does excel well beyond his grade level in a few too! Not all doom and gloom here), and we've worked hard over the summer while I was on UI to get him back up to speed, but that was very much a hands-on-deck project that is running out.
Is this a thing? How bad of an idea is this? Are there any good resources I should be following up on?
I've been unemployed since Covid hit, UI is running out, and I had to take a suboptimal job, which can't be done remotely and isn't the safest. It is, unfortunately, exactly during school hours. My wife is working remotely from inside the home, but unable to necessarily hover over kid to help with distanced learning. Kid is starting to do 3rd grade remotely, and has pretty intense ADHD. We can't afford any kind of safe childcare (is there safe childcare out of the home?), and we can't get any sort of tutor.
The distanced learning setup is bad. It's really bad. Both the lack of instruction, and the actual digital tools they've giving the kids to do the work is basically making even small, 'easy' assignments a huge ordeal over here, even though the kid can functionally do the work, the architecture and lack of instruction just nukes the whole deal. Last spring when the kids when distanced, things were pretty bad and we were hoping that the school was going to...uh, work on it over the summer. This clearly hasn't really happened in any meaningful, impactful way. The technology is buggy as shit, the teachers, wonderful as they are, aren't educated on how to use the systems themselves, and our kid just can't do this without a lot of hands on supervision.
We just had an IEP meeting this morning after it became apparent that this wasn't going well (again), and the school basically threw up their hands and said 'we're doing what we can, this isn't ideal, but we're not legally allowed to tell you in what areas we're failing.' They have to tow the line that things might go to a 'hybrid model this winter' but...there's just no way. It's not going to happen, and its not going to be safe if it does. We're sympathetic to how hard this is for educators, but it's just not going to work for our kid to do this, and we don't know how to function.
In a moment of frustration I said that we might just disenroll him and homeschool him until this all blows over. After the initial shock of getting to that point wore off, my wife and I actually considered the possibility. We figure since we're going to have to put in the labor to actually school him, we may as well disengage from the (impossible for us) schedules that the school is proposing, and having him do some schooling in the mornings, evenings and on weekends. The only hurdle is that we're not educators, and we're not from homeschooler stock. We don't know if this is just setting the kid up for further deficits in the long run. He's already socially isolated. So are we. The emotional impacts of this aren't going to be helped much by distanced learning, we're just trying to hold back the tide and maintain his education until he can resume school in person (and probably have therapy forever). This is an emotionally fraught task, because I believe strongly in our educational institutions, and don't believe homeschooling is a good thing for kids. This goes against every single humanist, collectivist bone in my body.
What resources are out there for Covid homeschooling? I am very atheist and can't hang with religious oriented home school culture or materials (which is complicating this research project). Secular resources are a must here and I can't really budge on that, not even an inch.
Again, we're aware its not a great plan, but we don't feel like we have many other options. Our kid was already running at a deficit in a few areas (he does excel well beyond his grade level in a few too! Not all doom and gloom here), and we've worked hard over the summer while I was on UI to get him back up to speed, but that was very much a hands-on-deck project that is running out.
Is this a thing? How bad of an idea is this? Are there any good resources I should be following up on?
If what he's doing now isn't working, you really have nothing to lose by trying homeschooling. It probably won't be worse than distanced school and it might be better. I think trying it sounds like a good idea. At the third grade level the amount of time you'll need to put into it is fairly small. When you're working with a kid one-on-one you can teach things in a fraction of the time it takes in a classroom setting. And if your goal is just keep him from falling behind other kids his age, and there are some areas where he's already beyond grade level, there are plenty of things they might cover in school that you can ignore entirely. Nothing kids learn in third grade social studies or science is crucial to later success in those areas. Art, health, PE and music are all things you can ignore without consequences. All you have to focus on is math, reading and writing. And if your kid is ahead in some of those areas, you can ignore them too.
I wouldn't worry too much about finding resources. Don't feel you need to go out and buy a whole curriculum and come up with a detailed schedule and lesson plans. In half an hour of googling you can probably come up with a list of language arts and math concepts kids typically learn in third grade that your kid doesn't know and in another half hour you can probably pick a couple to start with and find some websites or worksheets you can use to help teach them, or come up with your own ideas that don't require outside resources. Or google "third grade workbooks" and buy a couple. Even if your kid doesn't like using them, they'll give you ideas of what to teach. If you can find 7 hours a week to work on stuff with your kid, that will probably be enough. Hopefully he'll use the time when he would have been in school to have fun and pursue his own interests and you shouldn't discount the value of that.
(As you may have guessed, my attitude toward homeschooling is the opposite of yours. My homeschooled kids are teenagers now and they're in good shape educationally compared to their peers. It would probably be helpful for you to get other answers from people with different biases, and I'm sure you'll get some.)
posted by Redstart at 4:04 PM on September 11, 2020 [15 favorites]
I wouldn't worry too much about finding resources. Don't feel you need to go out and buy a whole curriculum and come up with a detailed schedule and lesson plans. In half an hour of googling you can probably come up with a list of language arts and math concepts kids typically learn in third grade that your kid doesn't know and in another half hour you can probably pick a couple to start with and find some websites or worksheets you can use to help teach them, or come up with your own ideas that don't require outside resources. Or google "third grade workbooks" and buy a couple. Even if your kid doesn't like using them, they'll give you ideas of what to teach. If you can find 7 hours a week to work on stuff with your kid, that will probably be enough. Hopefully he'll use the time when he would have been in school to have fun and pursue his own interests and you shouldn't discount the value of that.
(As you may have guessed, my attitude toward homeschooling is the opposite of yours. My homeschooled kids are teenagers now and they're in good shape educationally compared to their peers. It would probably be helpful for you to get other answers from people with different biases, and I'm sure you'll get some.)
posted by Redstart at 4:04 PM on September 11, 2020 [15 favorites]
a (very secular) friend of mine has had to do this, as the kid has simply refused to do "zoom school." it was a relief for everyone. Sounds like you have nothing to lose and potentially a lot to gain. This year there are a ton of resources coming onto the marketplace to facilitate exactly this sort of thing.
Agree that all a kid this age needs is reading (you can do this by making sure he has books to read that interest him;) writing (any sort of daily writing practice will do: a diary or story, whatever); and something for math. The rest of what they learn in 3rd grade in public school won't be missed. If there are other areas he's interested in, so much the better, you can focus on those instead of the million time-wasters foisted upon schoolchildren.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:23 PM on September 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
Agree that all a kid this age needs is reading (you can do this by making sure he has books to read that interest him;) writing (any sort of daily writing practice will do: a diary or story, whatever); and something for math. The rest of what they learn in 3rd grade in public school won't be missed. If there are other areas he's interested in, so much the better, you can focus on those instead of the million time-wasters foisted upon schoolchildren.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:23 PM on September 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
Check your school district at the district level (not the school level) to see what resources and requirements they have. Our district has this home-school partnership where the school provides the structure and parents do the actual teaching with a chem-in with supervising teacher every 2-3 weeks. On the middle school level, it also lets take one or two regular school classes which is nice when there is a subject where your kids is highly motivated and you aren't well equipped to teach it.
posted by metahawk at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by metahawk at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Homeschooling is work. You'd be better off keeping him enrolled in school, and talking to the teacher to update the IEP until it says something that you and kid can succeed at. That could look like "kid will log in to classes (for a small amount of socializing), not interrupt others, do what work he can/wants to, and the teacher will give you work to do with him in the evenings". No reason to run your own curriculum when that isn't what you dislike about his school. And no reason he has to do the same work as others just to call in to the same classes.
posted by bashing rocks together at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by bashing rocks together at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
You won't have to teach for as many hours with only your own kid. It'll take 2 hours to explain to a group of 35 kids what it takes 10 minutes to explain to one kid. He won't have to sit there and stare into space after he understands the lesson, but 10 other kids are still being instructed. He also won't have to deal with being one of the few kids who doesn't understand while the rest of the class starts disengaging.
You can also break it up into smaller chunks, instead of a solid 3 hours of sitting down.
If you're able to stay engaged and don't decide to take a one day break from it that turns into a 3 month break, I'd go for it.
posted by Dynex at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2020 [17 favorites]
You can also break it up into smaller chunks, instead of a solid 3 hours of sitting down.
If you're able to stay engaged and don't decide to take a one day break from it that turns into a 3 month break, I'd go for it.
posted by Dynex at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2020 [17 favorites]
We just pulled one of our kids to homeschool, because it was clear that the distance learning plan wasn't going to work for her.
The Secular, Eclectic, Academic (SEA) Homeschoolers group on Facebook is a great resource.
Up Above the Rowan Tree has an extensive list of secular curriculum options that might be helpful.
posted by belladonna at 4:43 PM on September 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
The Secular, Eclectic, Academic (SEA) Homeschoolers group on Facebook is a great resource.
Up Above the Rowan Tree has an extensive list of secular curriculum options that might be helpful.
posted by belladonna at 4:43 PM on September 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
As an atheist, humanist parent who is homeschooling their child, I urge you to re-examine your biases against homeschooling. The book Deschooling Society might give you some food for thought [article]. Did you know: not all homeschoolers even use curriculum? Some of us arrange for our kids to learn experientially through mentorships, volunteerism, and self-directed projects.
posted by xo at 4:52 PM on September 11, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by xo at 4:52 PM on September 11, 2020 [20 favorites]
Please check your MeFiMail.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:41 PM on September 11, 2020
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:41 PM on September 11, 2020
I’m Canadian, homeschooling here is much more secular than the US, so I would suggest looking at Canadian resources (with the caveat that BC and alberta homeschoolers tends to be religious). A kid in grade 3 is not going to fall behind, especially in the current education environment. The important things to learn are literacy (reading) and confidence - algebra can come when it is developmentally appropriate. I unschooled my eldest - who is now entering the third year of med school while speaking three languages and running her own business - sooooo, while I understand your hesitation, you really are overthinking this. The most important part of learning - especially now - is for the PARENTS to not be a ball of anxiousness and stress. If homeschooling helps you - it helps him.
posted by saucysault at 5:55 PM on September 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 5:55 PM on September 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
My niece has been homeschooling her four kids for several years. They range in age from 8 to 16. My niece has no training, does not even have a college degree. Her husband does, but he works full time. My niece is an atheist radical leftist anti-racist and she's found plenty of good resources for her kids. Pre-covid they were involved in a variety of community homeschooling groups in their suburban area. My niece's kids are a delight: they're knowledgeable, creative, thoughtful. It definitely can be done and done well.
Yes the ADHD is a complicating factor, but as others have pointed out it is really much less time-consuming to teach one child. As far as social contact if he doesn't have any friends he can easily facetime it's perhaps time to recruit relatives and family friends to maintain routine contact with him.
I've been spending a lot of time with my grandchildren lately, especially the 5, 8, and 11 yr olds. They love to tell me what they've been doing, what they've been reading.
Just looked at your profile, you're in Portland? A quick googling reveals a whole lot of homeschooling groups and resources there, check them out.
posted by mareli at 6:11 PM on September 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yes the ADHD is a complicating factor, but as others have pointed out it is really much less time-consuming to teach one child. As far as social contact if he doesn't have any friends he can easily facetime it's perhaps time to recruit relatives and family friends to maintain routine contact with him.
I've been spending a lot of time with my grandchildren lately, especially the 5, 8, and 11 yr olds. They love to tell me what they've been doing, what they've been reading.
Just looked at your profile, you're in Portland? A quick googling reveals a whole lot of homeschooling groups and resources there, check them out.
posted by mareli at 6:11 PM on September 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
N-thing the suggestions above to look into “unschooling” as well as more structured home-schooling curriculums. A bunch of the actual content of third grade can probably be ignored...the more important thing is to get out of this frustrating loop and help your kid find something they themselves want to learn. If they decide they hate learning now, the long term implications will be harder. And, if your school feels that he fell too far behind, can he re-enter the school system next year at 3rd grade instead of 4th? It might actually help his executive function to be older than his peers.
posted by tinymegalo at 6:16 PM on September 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by tinymegalo at 6:16 PM on September 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
ADHD kids are made for project-based learning. What does he hyperfocus on? Let him lean heavily into that. Research it. Do projects based on it. Read books about it. Even if it's not super academic.
I'd also suggest the computer games prodigy math and beast academy, as well as code.org. If you can swing them financially, outschool classes are good. Don't let your poor experiences with online schooling stop you from trying. My daughter--who is six--was happily taking classes in physics and WWII history and Godzilla on outschool and now her public school has her spending 90 minutes a day tracing letters. It's ridiculous, low quality busywork--whereas outschool feels a little bit like college. My daughter has really thrived with them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:21 PM on September 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
I'd also suggest the computer games prodigy math and beast academy, as well as code.org. If you can swing them financially, outschool classes are good. Don't let your poor experiences with online schooling stop you from trying. My daughter--who is six--was happily taking classes in physics and WWII history and Godzilla on outschool and now her public school has her spending 90 minutes a day tracing letters. It's ridiculous, low quality busywork--whereas outschool feels a little bit like college. My daughter has really thrived with them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:21 PM on September 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
I would say for a 1 year period in the middle of elementary...it’s education “by any means” that preserve the child’s love of learning. I would either see if you can agree that you do the work with him at the times you can (I.e. you follow his school’s curriculum) or just pull him out and concentrate on his math and language skills. Everything else is salvageable.
I abandoned my child’s online school in March. He was in grade 3. Although I think he will have a few deficits in writing, he has thrived on learning through things that interest him. Like...a whole new light came on. In the looong game towards a good life I think we’re on par. But I was off work a lot of that time. Now I’ve got more work and it’s harder (we’re not back yet.)
That said...your family sounds under a lot of stress. Before you fully leap, consider the daycare and other issues like...right now your wife is working and doing all the childcare during the day out of necessity. With no formal school is that harder or easier? Is there a family member who can help either way? A family you could bubble with where adults could take turns?
Man Covid sucks. :(
posted by warriorqueen at 6:22 PM on September 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
I abandoned my child’s online school in March. He was in grade 3. Although I think he will have a few deficits in writing, he has thrived on learning through things that interest him. Like...a whole new light came on. In the looong game towards a good life I think we’re on par. But I was off work a lot of that time. Now I’ve got more work and it’s harder (we’re not back yet.)
That said...your family sounds under a lot of stress. Before you fully leap, consider the daycare and other issues like...right now your wife is working and doing all the childcare during the day out of necessity. With no formal school is that harder or easier? Is there a family member who can help either way? A family you could bubble with where adults could take turns?
Man Covid sucks. :(
posted by warriorqueen at 6:22 PM on September 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
As a point of reference, I was homeschooled very poorly. I was basically given a textbook and a workbook and left to myself. I'm now getting my PhD (and I attribute part of my success to being forced to figure out how to self-manage, though I wouldn't recommend it as the preferred way to teach children those skills). So, even if you do a poor job of it, you aren't irrevocably ruining your child's education. I was homeschooled because of extenuating circumstances (chronic illness). Right now, you're in extenuating circumstances. I have the same opinion of homeschooling as you and I wouldn't homeschool my kid for funsies, but there are times where it's necessary. It sounds like this is one of those times.
I don't have much advice for you as my homeschool education was wildly Christian, except that I think the one really good thing about my homeschool curriculum was a creative writing program that gave me regular prompts for short pieces of writing. I don't remember the name of it, sorry--I'll ask my mom if she remembers and get back to you--but I feel like it was really impactful in developing a love of language and writing skills that served me for the rest of my life.
posted by brook horse at 7:02 PM on September 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I don't have much advice for you as my homeschool education was wildly Christian, except that I think the one really good thing about my homeschool curriculum was a creative writing program that gave me regular prompts for short pieces of writing. I don't remember the name of it, sorry--I'll ask my mom if she remembers and get back to you--but I feel like it was really impactful in developing a love of language and writing skills that served me for the rest of my life.
posted by brook horse at 7:02 PM on September 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
As an educator, I will just re-frame: what's at stake here isn't content or skills your kid will need to thrive in fourth grade. It is your kid's attitude about school in general. It sounds like if you continue public online education, your kid is going to end up hating education. Ironically, it seems that if you want to have half a chance of passing those civic-minded values on to your kid, you should homeschool.
Nthing all of the above that this can and should be fun. On my own classes, I often struggle to break away from "the way it's been done" out the way I was taught to come up with more fun projects that will be more pedagogically effective anyway. I teach a totally different age group but I am SURE those kind of materials are out there for math (home science experiments and history and music and art and creative writing and reading already sound engaging to me).
One more thing. When I was in third grade, I spent a week at home for whatever reason. Those were the days we learned and were tested on long division. My parents weren't super involved and so nobody taught me or told me what I missed. It was definitely confusing when long division problems would be mixed in to our home work, very occasionally, but I made it through the year fine. Turns out there wasn't a lot of review? Sometime in fourth grade I just taught myself long division and it took like an hour.
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:34 PM on September 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
Nthing all of the above that this can and should be fun. On my own classes, I often struggle to break away from "the way it's been done" out the way I was taught to come up with more fun projects that will be more pedagogically effective anyway. I teach a totally different age group but I am SURE those kind of materials are out there for math (home science experiments and history and music and art and creative writing and reading already sound engaging to me).
One more thing. When I was in third grade, I spent a week at home for whatever reason. Those were the days we learned and were tested on long division. My parents weren't super involved and so nobody taught me or told me what I missed. It was definitely confusing when long division problems would be mixed in to our home work, very occasionally, but I made it through the year fine. Turns out there wasn't a lot of review? Sometime in fourth grade I just taught myself long division and it took like an hour.
posted by athirstforsalt at 7:34 PM on September 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
I just want to re-iterate what has been touched on in several posts above: with one-on-one learning, two hours a day of structured learning will attain curriculum goals. Blossom & Root is a good alternative to Oak for grade schoolers.
"Which is worse?" is probably not the question to ask. "How can home schooling work for our family?" is a better question.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:01 PM on September 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
"Which is worse?" is probably not the question to ask. "How can home schooling work for our family?" is a better question.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:01 PM on September 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I'll be going over these suggestions with my wife as we plan things out, and just wanted to thank everyone so far for their responses. This helps.
The kid is a great reader (actually reading at a 5th almost 6th grade level; we also read lots of poetry to him that's beyond his comprehension, and talk about it alot, and he likes that. Lots of Wendell Berry this summer for bedtime reading) and can do some pretty complex math in his head (but this is spotty, and not like a logical progression of skill acquisition? He's just getting certain concepts early...math specifically is an area where I struggle to teach him because I don't understand how they're teaching the work) we're not pushing him in either place, but his writing is lagging way, way behind his peers; we just made him do it everyday. He pitched a fit a couple times, but once the routine was established he did a great job overall.
We're not educators, which is why this is hard. My wife is a little better than I am. We don't know what questions to ask the school in normal times, and we're just bad at this part of being parents (but, we are still pretty good parents, I hope). I don't know how to teach the ADHD brain, and nor does my wife. I appreciate the suggests to look into 'unschooling'- a thought that hadn't crossed either of our minds because of some real uncomfortable interactions we've had with parents who engage in what they called unschooling, but what we consider (and apparently, so did the state) neglect. Alot of fun things we do out in nature (mushroom hunting, rockhounding, hiking, riding bikes) usually lead to conversations and books being picked up about those topics, so its possible we're doing right by him in that regard. He likes reading books about time, space and the universe. He is a really smart, but socially/emotionally he's really a bit behind his peers...and this whole hot mess of a pandemic isn't helping that at all.
It really does suck. We unfortunately don't have a lot of help, our resources are stretched thin, and some family members who normally would are being difficult, pulling back support when we really need more, and being so...I don't know...insanely right wing that they don't believe this is a problem?
Its just hard, and we're grasping at straws.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:17 PM on September 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
The kid is a great reader (actually reading at a 5th almost 6th grade level; we also read lots of poetry to him that's beyond his comprehension, and talk about it alot, and he likes that. Lots of Wendell Berry this summer for bedtime reading) and can do some pretty complex math in his head (but this is spotty, and not like a logical progression of skill acquisition? He's just getting certain concepts early...math specifically is an area where I struggle to teach him because I don't understand how they're teaching the work) we're not pushing him in either place, but his writing is lagging way, way behind his peers; we just made him do it everyday. He pitched a fit a couple times, but once the routine was established he did a great job overall.
We're not educators, which is why this is hard. My wife is a little better than I am. We don't know what questions to ask the school in normal times, and we're just bad at this part of being parents (but, we are still pretty good parents, I hope). I don't know how to teach the ADHD brain, and nor does my wife. I appreciate the suggests to look into 'unschooling'- a thought that hadn't crossed either of our minds because of some real uncomfortable interactions we've had with parents who engage in what they called unschooling, but what we consider (and apparently, so did the state) neglect. Alot of fun things we do out in nature (mushroom hunting, rockhounding, hiking, riding bikes) usually lead to conversations and books being picked up about those topics, so its possible we're doing right by him in that regard. He likes reading books about time, space and the universe. He is a really smart, but socially/emotionally he's really a bit behind his peers...and this whole hot mess of a pandemic isn't helping that at all.
It really does suck. We unfortunately don't have a lot of help, our resources are stretched thin, and some family members who normally would are being difficult, pulling back support when we really need more, and being so...I don't know...insanely right wing that they don't believe this is a problem?
Its just hard, and we're grasping at straws.
posted by furnace.heart at 9:17 PM on September 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
If you’re teaching an adhd kid, think small intense bursts after exercise or nature walks which tend to calm them down. A two hour block is a mountain but ten minutes 12x over the day is workable if they’re able to dive back into their own projects in between.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:57 PM on September 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:57 PM on September 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
It sounds like he's already getting almost everything he needs educationally just through everyday life and homeschooling could be nothing more than getting him to practice writing regularly and introducing some age-appropriate math skills and concepts. It seems very doable and considerably less stressful (for him and for you) than what he's doing now.
What aspect of writing is hard for him? Organizing and expressing his thoughts or just the physical act of forming letters on paper? If it's the latter, you might want to encourage him to learn to type. (Or at least learn where all the keys are on the keyboard and develop his own keyboard method, which is what I think a lot of kids end up doing nowadays instead of learning traditional touch typing.) I have a kid who would do anything to avoid putting pencil to paper but he can express himself perfectly well using a keyboard.
posted by Redstart at 10:14 PM on September 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
What aspect of writing is hard for him? Organizing and expressing his thoughts or just the physical act of forming letters on paper? If it's the latter, you might want to encourage him to learn to type. (Or at least learn where all the keys are on the keyboard and develop his own keyboard method, which is what I think a lot of kids end up doing nowadays instead of learning traditional touch typing.) I have a kid who would do anything to avoid putting pencil to paper but he can express himself perfectly well using a keyboard.
posted by Redstart at 10:14 PM on September 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
Saw your reply! Ok, for writing specifically:
What about writing a family cookbook, or having him interview family members on skype and write little profiles of them?
What about a field notebook for his nature/ mushroom discoveries?
"what do you think a scientist would write in his notebook about mushrooms? Different types of mushrooms? Ok, let's research what mushrooms grow in our area and write a report!" I have ADHD and as a kid I found a lot of assignments pointless and boring so I rebelled. Maybe having him generate his own writing assignments will also help buy-in.
Looks from a super quick Google like one of the writing outcomes in 3rd grade is figurative language. If you are reading poetry you're there! One exercise I did with similar age kids was to give them a poem filled with metaphors (I forget which, sorry!), explain the concept (YouTube is your friend here), then give them 5-10 minutes to come up with as many metaphors as they could, sometimes supplying the first half of a simile from the poem they read. Then another 20 minutes or so to weave those fresh metaphors and similes into a poem. The results were soooo great.
You can find more such exercises in Wishes, Lies, and Dreams by Kenneth Koch.
Basically: you say you are not an educator, but it sounds like you both doing a super job teaching your kid already, and adapting to his needs. Unschooling/creative homeschooling could be, I think, much more rewarding long-term than your current employment. I am honestly excited for you both to break out of what sounds like zoom hell.
posted by athirstforsalt at 10:25 PM on September 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
What about writing a family cookbook, or having him interview family members on skype and write little profiles of them?
What about a field notebook for his nature/ mushroom discoveries?
"what do you think a scientist would write in his notebook about mushrooms? Different types of mushrooms? Ok, let's research what mushrooms grow in our area and write a report!" I have ADHD and as a kid I found a lot of assignments pointless and boring so I rebelled. Maybe having him generate his own writing assignments will also help buy-in.
Looks from a super quick Google like one of the writing outcomes in 3rd grade is figurative language. If you are reading poetry you're there! One exercise I did with similar age kids was to give them a poem filled with metaphors (I forget which, sorry!), explain the concept (YouTube is your friend here), then give them 5-10 minutes to come up with as many metaphors as they could, sometimes supplying the first half of a simile from the poem they read. Then another 20 minutes or so to weave those fresh metaphors and similes into a poem. The results were soooo great.
You can find more such exercises in Wishes, Lies, and Dreams by Kenneth Koch.
Basically: you say you are not an educator, but it sounds like you both doing a super job teaching your kid already, and adapting to his needs. Unschooling/creative homeschooling could be, I think, much more rewarding long-term than your current employment. I am honestly excited for you both to break out of what sounds like zoom hell.
posted by athirstforsalt at 10:25 PM on September 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm so sorry.
Based on what you've said, I just wouldn't do anything where you are replacing the wonderful family adventures you have with "school" (workbooks, etc.) So if 'homeschooling' to you means taking your weekends and evenings for worksheets, I say please don't do that.
Some of the parents in my area who are choosing remote (online) public school are creating two-family bubbles and trading days to supervise school, plus the kids play together. I don't know if that's a thing you could do or is in your area but that's my only other thought. Hang in there, it is going to be just fine educationally from your description, IMO.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:15 AM on September 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
Based on what you've said, I just wouldn't do anything where you are replacing the wonderful family adventures you have with "school" (workbooks, etc.) So if 'homeschooling' to you means taking your weekends and evenings for worksheets, I say please don't do that.
Some of the parents in my area who are choosing remote (online) public school are creating two-family bubbles and trading days to supervise school, plus the kids play together. I don't know if that's a thing you could do or is in your area but that's my only other thought. Hang in there, it is going to be just fine educationally from your description, IMO.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:15 AM on September 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
A tip for teaching ADHD brain: Make the task at hand urgent, novel, or fun. Those are the three things that can help attention. That and routine. For ADHD a self-guided schedule would at first seem appealing, but switching attention from task to task is difficult with ADHD. With a routine the time to switch mental streams in expected, especially with warnings ("in 10 minutes we're going to blank"), and is easier. Not that it means subject matter can't arrise from exploration and interest on the child's part, just that exploring time is at 5 everyday!
Also, my heart goes put to you. No teacher (parent or professional) is going to get through a regular curriculum this year. Don't worry about staying on course. No one is, nor should expect if of themselves. It's okay if he's "behind". I missed most of third grade due to illness and I turned out fine!
(sources: my wife and I are hs teachers and she has ADHD, we have many ADHD students)
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also, my heart goes put to you. No teacher (parent or professional) is going to get through a regular curriculum this year. Don't worry about staying on course. No one is, nor should expect if of themselves. It's okay if he's "behind". I missed most of third grade due to illness and I turned out fine!
(sources: my wife and I are hs teachers and she has ADHD, we have many ADHD students)
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
It sounds like he might be twice exceptional, so please take a look at this page advanced learners with ADHD just think differently, and this is an opportunity to lean into that and let your child thrive. We only do things like worksheets when they're necessary to give my child foundationals (ie, having legible handwriting is necessary, so I bribe her to work on that, but she still counts on her fingers for math as she's doing more advanced concepts and that's fine).
Since he likes space I can personally recommend this Outschool teacher.
I don't know how to teach the ADHD brain, and nor does my wife.
Sure you do. ADHD isn't a deficit of attention, it's an inability to easily switch your attention to "appropriate" things. Understand that most ADHD kids will learn better if allowed to lean into that to some degree. It's really hard to give up something that's giving you dopamine when you don't have much of it naturally.
Also I want to speak to your sense that your kid is isolated: i think this is a real problem for only children right now. We both work inside the home, but we're sending my kid to a small program we found at a local daycare where she went when she was young. Five children in a greenhouse. They do their school online learning for 3 hours a day plus lunch and playground time while masked. She gets to socialize. Then she comes home where I supplement her with work that's actually at her ability level. Is it risky? Yes, it's more risky than being totally isolated. But the tangible benefits to our lives in terms of mental health have been huge. I'm not saying this is necessarily the solution for you but if there are small scale childcare set-ups available (like our local Y is doing drop-off care that usually has fewer than ten kids for free) I would let yourself explore it. My kid is also in baseball (no contact, all distanced and masked outside) and girl scouts (ditto) right now, and I consider both important to maintaining our family sanity.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Since he likes space I can personally recommend this Outschool teacher.
I don't know how to teach the ADHD brain, and nor does my wife.
Sure you do. ADHD isn't a deficit of attention, it's an inability to easily switch your attention to "appropriate" things. Understand that most ADHD kids will learn better if allowed to lean into that to some degree. It's really hard to give up something that's giving you dopamine when you don't have much of it naturally.
Also I want to speak to your sense that your kid is isolated: i think this is a real problem for only children right now. We both work inside the home, but we're sending my kid to a small program we found at a local daycare where she went when she was young. Five children in a greenhouse. They do their school online learning for 3 hours a day plus lunch and playground time while masked. She gets to socialize. Then she comes home where I supplement her with work that's actually at her ability level. Is it risky? Yes, it's more risky than being totally isolated. But the tangible benefits to our lives in terms of mental health have been huge. I'm not saying this is necessarily the solution for you but if there are small scale childcare set-ups available (like our local Y is doing drop-off care that usually has fewer than ten kids for free) I would let yourself explore it. My kid is also in baseball (no contact, all distanced and masked outside) and girl scouts (ditto) right now, and I consider both important to maintaining our family sanity.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:01 AM on September 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm a former childcare worker currently teaching a little pod (2 sets of siblings) and online instruction is a MESS, so I feel this. I feel like trying to act "business as usual" with kids right now is really shortsighted, and the most important thing is managing undue stress. I had a couple years of unconventional schooling, and even though it did put me behind in some ways academically, the knowledge that school (and by extension, any other institution) wasn't this fact of nature, but just a system put in place by people, was invaluable. I caught up by high school and went to a pretty good college, so it didn't mess anything up long term.
I know a family of 4 who did secular homeschool, and they were in an association of about 20 kids that would trade tips and tutoring time and get together for field trips and events. Obviously COVID complicates that, but it would be cool if he had other kids he could call about a book they're both reading, things like that.
Regarding social/emotional development... regular school is a real mixed bag in that department. I see this concern a lot when parents are wary of homeschooling, but I think the social value of school is wildly overrated, especially for awkward or introverted kids. Obviously we should have a public education system, but school is also the site of a lot of discrimination and injustice and bullying. Emotional intelligence/actually relating to others well isn't usually emphasized. Kids can have friends without school.
What I would suggest is giving your kid books that feature people unlike him as subjects--i.e., not just books about civil rights, but a book about, say, a black character who goes on adventures in a magical city (a real book! Un Lun Dun by China Mieville). This is also a great time to suggest books about girls, which boys are sometimes get shamed out of reading in public school. He could also connect with other people via letters (good writing practice!) or social/casual Zooms.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:26 AM on September 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
I know a family of 4 who did secular homeschool, and they were in an association of about 20 kids that would trade tips and tutoring time and get together for field trips and events. Obviously COVID complicates that, but it would be cool if he had other kids he could call about a book they're both reading, things like that.
Regarding social/emotional development... regular school is a real mixed bag in that department. I see this concern a lot when parents are wary of homeschooling, but I think the social value of school is wildly overrated, especially for awkward or introverted kids. Obviously we should have a public education system, but school is also the site of a lot of discrimination and injustice and bullying. Emotional intelligence/actually relating to others well isn't usually emphasized. Kids can have friends without school.
What I would suggest is giving your kid books that feature people unlike him as subjects--i.e., not just books about civil rights, but a book about, say, a black character who goes on adventures in a magical city (a real book! Un Lun Dun by China Mieville). This is also a great time to suggest books about girls, which boys are sometimes get shamed out of reading in public school. He could also connect with other people via letters (good writing practice!) or social/casual Zooms.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:26 AM on September 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Hi! I’m the Dad of a very ADHD 11 year old. Homeschooling wasn’t something I had considered for him until this year, and it seemed like a radical step, but on day three of online 6th grade I walked into his room to check on him, and my sweet boy had turned off his webcam and was curled up on the floor, crying with frustration. I emailed his school that evening to withdraw him.
So, we are also brand new to homeschooling, but something had to give, and I don’t regret the decision. To help us stay on track, we subscribed to time4learning.com, which offers math, social studies, language arts and science lessons on each grade level for $20 a month. It’s probably not ideal for an ADHD kid (esp. social studies—too lecturey) but we use the materials to at least give us a direction for the week. It’s worth the subscription for me to just help me plan what to teach. My son is also dysgraphic, so some things we just do orally. I also bought grade level textbooks and activity books that provide more resources.
I’m new in this journey (and glad for other people’s helpful responses here), but I just wanted to say that we are in the same boat and absolutely do not regret pulling our kid out of school. He was miserable, and that level of frustration couldn’t be allowed to continue. It felt like a radical move two weeks ago, but it was definitely the right move for us.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:53 AM on September 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
So, we are also brand new to homeschooling, but something had to give, and I don’t regret the decision. To help us stay on track, we subscribed to time4learning.com, which offers math, social studies, language arts and science lessons on each grade level for $20 a month. It’s probably not ideal for an ADHD kid (esp. social studies—too lecturey) but we use the materials to at least give us a direction for the week. It’s worth the subscription for me to just help me plan what to teach. My son is also dysgraphic, so some things we just do orally. I also bought grade level textbooks and activity books that provide more resources.
I’m new in this journey (and glad for other people’s helpful responses here), but I just wanted to say that we are in the same boat and absolutely do not regret pulling our kid out of school. He was miserable, and that level of frustration couldn’t be allowed to continue. It felt like a radical move two weeks ago, but it was definitely the right move for us.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:53 AM on September 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
one more thing. this:
math specifically is an area where I struggle to teach him because I don't understand how they're teaching the work
this is just one more reason to jettison the public school setup. I don't know where you are, but in my state, the common core math is (per my bright kid) extremely boring, slow, and an onerous burden and liability to the students who actually have aptitude for math, which it sounds like your kid does. If that's what you're up against, it's a lot more trouble than it's worth.
You sound like your anxiety is a result of you and your kid kid having a bad time with the current setup; and the conflict between your politics and your kid's needs. Your kid's needs win. Take advantage of the myriad alternatives that covid has made available. Your responsibility is to your kid and from your descriptions here it sounds like pulling him out of public school this year is going to be the best thing you ever did for him. You may not want to go back.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
math specifically is an area where I struggle to teach him because I don't understand how they're teaching the work
this is just one more reason to jettison the public school setup. I don't know where you are, but in my state, the common core math is (per my bright kid) extremely boring, slow, and an onerous burden and liability to the students who actually have aptitude for math, which it sounds like your kid does. If that's what you're up against, it's a lot more trouble than it's worth.
You sound like your anxiety is a result of you and your kid kid having a bad time with the current setup; and the conflict between your politics and your kid's needs. Your kid's needs win. Take advantage of the myriad alternatives that covid has made available. Your responsibility is to your kid and from your descriptions here it sounds like pulling him out of public school this year is going to be the best thing you ever did for him. You may not want to go back.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:36 AM on September 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have ADHD, and managed to evade diagnosis and detection until age 30 (haha!). I always did best in public school with an attentive teacher who would recognize that my hyperfocus could be directed to a single project, that could incorporate any/all standard subjects (math, science, writing, etc.) As a result, I learned all about the archaeoptryx in Gr.3, and all about Giraffes in Gr.4, etc... When I became a teacher, the same approach worked really well for my students with ADHD/ADD; subject transitions aren't as hard when it's all directed towards multiple facets of a single overriding passion project.
I also went on to complete my MSc. using a similar approach; just a data point to encourage you in feeling more confident in engaging your son's deeply held interests as rhe launchpad for any and all academics/skills.
posted by NorthernAutumn at 11:16 AM on September 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
I also went on to complete my MSc. using a similar approach; just a data point to encourage you in feeling more confident in engaging your son's deeply held interests as rhe launchpad for any and all academics/skills.
posted by NorthernAutumn at 11:16 AM on September 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
(Also, providing him with opportunities to fully explore a subject, then teach YOU how to do it, helps to cement a lot of his learning/insights. I best remember ideas/concepts that have undergone a transformation; eg. From reading about an idea, to building a model of it, or teaching someone else about the concept and answering their genuinely-asked questions.
... I try to be a "guide on the side" vs. "A sage on the stage"; it will go better if you are learning and questioning the material alongside him, and regularly saying "I don't know the answer... how can we figure this one out?")
Going on the learning journey together is more important than knowing the answers before he does- you've got this!!
posted by NorthernAutumn at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
... I try to be a "guide on the side" vs. "A sage on the stage"; it will go better if you are learning and questioning the material alongside him, and regularly saying "I don't know the answer... how can we figure this one out?")
Going on the learning journey together is more important than knowing the answers before he does- you've got this!!
posted by NorthernAutumn at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
So, I am *actually* a trained secondary teacher (although I haven’t run a classroom in years) will it help you to know what an actual teacher is going to do with her two special needs kiddos this year?
My kiddos are much younger than yours is- only in pre k... BUT they are special needs/low attention span/ sensory issues. Our kindergarten is running BUT will stop at any time to go week on week off. I will be buying a curriculum from timberdoodle and doing it when they aren’t in school.
Don’t let it bother you that you aren’t a teacher. I have so much education and experience but I very much dislike teaching. Nevertheless, duty calls.
The skills I will be using with my kids that a non teacher might not have are: time management (for myself and for them) and recognizing when they’ve had enough and are ready for a break. I will do a limited amount of time on this per day (as previous posters noted, it takes less time to teach just one kid)
Make sure your kid is getting the academic basics, getting some exercise, getting enough sleep and LOVE.
You can do this!
posted by pairofshades at 11:50 AM on September 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
My kiddos are much younger than yours is- only in pre k... BUT they are special needs/low attention span/ sensory issues. Our kindergarten is running BUT will stop at any time to go week on week off. I will be buying a curriculum from timberdoodle and doing it when they aren’t in school.
Don’t let it bother you that you aren’t a teacher. I have so much education and experience but I very much dislike teaching. Nevertheless, duty calls.
The skills I will be using with my kids that a non teacher might not have are: time management (for myself and for them) and recognizing when they’ve had enough and are ready for a break. I will do a limited amount of time on this per day (as previous posters noted, it takes less time to teach just one kid)
Make sure your kid is getting the academic basics, getting some exercise, getting enough sleep and LOVE.
You can do this!
posted by pairofshades at 11:50 AM on September 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I recently discovered that the NY state common core curriculum is available online, complete with all the descriptions for the teachers on what to teach. We did some homeschooling using it over the summer, and it was a great scaffold. We skipped large parts (kid clearly understood the concept, move forward 20 pages). It's called Engage NY / Eureka math for the math.
posted by lab.beetle at 5:54 PM on September 12, 2020
posted by lab.beetle at 5:54 PM on September 12, 2020
It's pretty clear that the current set up isn't working for your kid, and home schooling may be the "least worst" option.
Jump math might work well for a kid with ADHD.
Kids who like to read may also enjoy Beast Academy or Life of Fred.
Kids who like puzzles might enjoy Singapore Math or MEP math.
That being said, it has been my experience (as both a kid and a tutor) that math in particular can be rough on parent-child dynamics. If you do decide to unenroll your child, you will need to figure out how to make math work for your kid. One option might be to emphasize reading books about math, and doing hands on real word math (e.g. cooking). Another option might be using curriculum that doesn't rely on the parent to teach ("I don't know dear, let's rewatch the video to find out"). Or maybe there's a local high school or college student who can work with your kid one-on-one to take the parent-child dynamics out of the equation.
posted by oceano at 4:36 PM on September 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Jump math might work well for a kid with ADHD.
Kids who like to read may also enjoy Beast Academy or Life of Fred.
Kids who like puzzles might enjoy Singapore Math or MEP math.
That being said, it has been my experience (as both a kid and a tutor) that math in particular can be rough on parent-child dynamics. If you do decide to unenroll your child, you will need to figure out how to make math work for your kid. One option might be to emphasize reading books about math, and doing hands on real word math (e.g. cooking). Another option might be using curriculum that doesn't rely on the parent to teach ("I don't know dear, let's rewatch the video to find out"). Or maybe there's a local high school or college student who can work with your kid one-on-one to take the parent-child dynamics out of the equation.
posted by oceano at 4:36 PM on September 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
He likes reading books about time, space and the universe.
One of the great things about informal homeschooling (without a set curriculum) is that you can let your kid's interests guide him. Since he likes reading books about these things, I'd also ask him to write about those things. He can write stories or treatises or reports -- whatever he wants. Maybe there's a way to incorporate math studies into these interests?
Also, in the bigger pictures: lots of kids are going to be behind after this year. My two are going into later high school grades having missed chunks of important math lessons from last year. This entire generation of kids is going to have gaps. That happens a lot with kids who have to move around a lot or who miss a lot of school (because they're sick or because their family doesn't have a stable situation or for other reasons), but we're not used to it happening among middle class families. But I think this is just going to be a widespread thing for most kids now, and ... we'll figure it out. We'll adjust. Teachers know what's happening.
I would try to get past your horror at whatever that unschooling family was doing. You might be picturing extremes: formal homeschool as replicating the classroom; unschooling as neglectful hippies who make their kids sustain themselves on berries they collect from the wilderness; homeschooling as how religious parents indoctrinate their children. But many parents are finding, especially right now, that it can be a much more emotionally healthy option for their kids and their families.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:38 AM on September 14, 2020
One of the great things about informal homeschooling (without a set curriculum) is that you can let your kid's interests guide him. Since he likes reading books about these things, I'd also ask him to write about those things. He can write stories or treatises or reports -- whatever he wants. Maybe there's a way to incorporate math studies into these interests?
Also, in the bigger pictures: lots of kids are going to be behind after this year. My two are going into later high school grades having missed chunks of important math lessons from last year. This entire generation of kids is going to have gaps. That happens a lot with kids who have to move around a lot or who miss a lot of school (because they're sick or because their family doesn't have a stable situation or for other reasons), but we're not used to it happening among middle class families. But I think this is just going to be a widespread thing for most kids now, and ... we'll figure it out. We'll adjust. Teachers know what's happening.
I would try to get past your horror at whatever that unschooling family was doing. You might be picturing extremes: formal homeschool as replicating the classroom; unschooling as neglectful hippies who make their kids sustain themselves on berries they collect from the wilderness; homeschooling as how religious parents indoctrinate their children. But many parents are finding, especially right now, that it can be a much more emotionally healthy option for their kids and their families.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:38 AM on September 14, 2020
I wonder if one writing activity might be writing letters to you and your wife about whatever he's just learned? Assuming you're not both sitting right next to him while he's reading, you can tell him you're really interested in whatever he's reading about, and ask him to share those subjects with you by writing to you, so you can read them later in the day.
posted by kristi at 5:37 PM on September 14, 2020
posted by kristi at 5:37 PM on September 14, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
Googling "secular homeschool curriculum" might lead you to more options.
A few other things: there are lots of parents and families dealing with what you are dealing with now. Have you been searching out other families whose kids have ADHD? There might be some ideas among that group.
But what's the important stuff for your son to learn this year? What does he need so he's ready for fourth grade? It might be that he doesn't need all that much, and you could pursue some sort of "unschooling" curriculum (that's worth googling too). Or you could focus on the areas where he's behind.
How did you all do getting your son caught up this summer? Did you both enjoy it? Hate it?
Also, homeschooling takes a fair amount of work. Doing it in the mornings, evenings, and on weekends sounds exhausting if you're both doing it in addition to extra jobs. You aren't stuck doing this. But also, it's a weird year. Pulling your kid out for Covid year does not mean you are abandoning public education, society, etc.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:01 PM on September 11, 2020 [7 favorites]