More "Is this normal?" In apartment hunting
September 8, 2020 6:26 PM   Subscribe

This one is specifically about a lease, and googling hasn't pulled up this specific situation. Any insight is appreciated!

Well, we are considering signing on a place but have been hesitating. I think for a couple of reasons, although I don't think it's a bubbling bad gut feeling. I don't think. The landlord seems nice enough and is willing to answer questions about the lease, but I wanted to see if these are clauses we even need to be concerned about/ask questions about. I want to be prepared if his answer is "Duh, that's normal."

The apartment in question is a condo, so it's part of an HOA, which could explain why there are these clauses. I've lived in a condo before though and hadn't seen things like this. For context, we are in Colorado, and I don't think lease laws specify on this (from what I've google'd. I could've missed it.)

Here are the ones we're a little concerned about:

1. Rent is due by 10am on the 1st. Anything after will be considered late. The landlord has the right to enter premises without warning if rent is not paid by 10am. (Ok. We haven't paid rent late before, but typically used to a 12 hour grace period. The entering the premises makes sense but makes us feel weird.)
2. We are to change the filter once a month, but we are required to pay for that filter.
3. We are responsible for all plumbing repairs including faucets, leaks, stopped up pipes, frozen pipes, water damage and bathroom caulking. (In a way, this makes sense if this was our fault, like I clogged it with my hair or something. We've never had an issue with damage, but once we did have a leaky shower that turned out to be a whole building issue tied to a faulty pipe. We did not pay for that repair. Does this mean we'd have to pay for anything that is out of our control?)
4. We're responsible for any damage to windows or the glass doors. (Again, would get it if it's our fault. What if someone threw a rock at our window? This happened literally once to us, when we lived near a street. Our landlord paid for that window repair, but maybe we've just had super nice landlords.)
5. We're responsible for the first $70 of any repair after the second repair or "incident" has occurred during the lease. (Again, maybe normal? But I've never lived somewhere where I'm paying rent and have to pay for part of repairs unless it's my fault or it's a minor repair.)
6. We pay for all pest control. (I can get if it's an infestation that we might have brought, like bed bugs. But y'all my last place had mice because there were cracks behind the stove and it was an old building, so the landlord took care of that cost. If it's something beyond our control, is this a normal clause?)

Again, we might just have had lucky places where this was not in our leases, but these gave us pause. On top of hesitating on the apartment, I wonder if this is our next yellow flag, or if we're just overreacting. Thanks again for helping me in this apartment hunt.
posted by socky bottoms to Home & Garden (59 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
I have never seen an apartment that had any of those six clauses, nonetheless all of those six clauses. I have lived in rented condos with HOAs. Depending on your jurisdiction, a number of those clauses violate your tenant rights - especially 1.

The sort of landlord that puts all that in is not the sort of landlord you want to deal with.
posted by saeculorum at 6:33 PM on September 8, 2020 [60 favorites]


Specifying the locality (cities sometimes have extra rules) might help but at least some of those don't sound legal in some of the localities that I (not a lawyer) am familiar with. But some are. Like I've seen the window damage one before. And the filter maintenance.

In general, unless you're in a tight market where landlords feel like they can get away with things, this has a lot of red flags. If things go badly, this could end up wasting a lot of your time and/or money and reeks of an amateur landlord that will be a pain to deal with. Especially with the first issue. Why would they have any need to immediately enter your dwelling if the rent was sightly late?
posted by Candleman at 6:39 PM on September 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


Where are you located? Anywhere that I've lived, the landlord has legally been required to make some repairs. Whether or not they're breaking the law, I wouldn't feel comfortable renting from them.
posted by pinochiette at 6:40 PM on September 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: This would be in Denver!
posted by socky bottoms at 6:42 PM on September 8, 2020


Not normal, run away
posted by jordemort at 6:48 PM on September 8, 2020 [23 favorites]


Definitely read up on landlord/tenant guidelines for your city. I found this in a quick google.

On p.16 under Privacy it states that if it's written into the lease that the landlord doesn't have to provide notice to enter, then the landlord doesn't have to provide notice to enter. So by signing this you would be giving them a right to enter at 10:01am on the first of every month.

In Chicago where I live, this would be illegal.

Read your guidelines, get familiar with your rights, and beyond that if it doesn't feel right, pass.
posted by phunniemee at 6:49 PM on September 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


Usually there is a grace period for paying rent. This guy doesn’t even give you a full 24 hours before he busts in and yells at you. Goodbye!
posted by oceanjesse at 6:53 PM on September 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


No, I lived in Denver/Boulder for ten years, and I never saw anything like this, nor heard about anything like this. No place is worth this headache.
posted by umwhat at 6:53 PM on September 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


Not normal. Part of the plus side of renting is that you don't have to pay for repairs!
posted by gillianr at 6:54 PM on September 8, 2020 [22 favorites]


Response by poster: @phunniemee, thanks for linking that! From what I read, Denver is pretty loose with tenant laws. It did give me an answer to a follow up question--can I ask him to change some of these things in the lease? Like, I feel like reasonably, he seems like a chill person, surely he wouldn't be entering in our apartment at 10:01am even though the lease gives him that right. But if I asked, hey could you add that you'll give us 24 hour notice before entering the apartment and he says "hell no" then that would be an even larger red flag, right? I'm hoping he just copied and pasted this stuff into the lease and no one ever questioned it until now.
posted by socky bottoms at 6:56 PM on September 8, 2020


Response by poster: (Also I'm very glad that I asked this question and did not second guess myself into thinking I was being sensitive over this lease. Thank you all.)
posted by socky bottoms at 6:57 PM on September 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


From a quick skimming of Denver/Colorado laws, (again, not a lawyer) it looks like leases can require you to be responsible for various types of maintenance and repairs.
When repairs and/or maintenance are needed, the tenant should double check the lease to confirm whether it is the landlord or the tenant who is responsible for making those repairs or performing that maintenance.

If the lease does not address responsibility for repairs and maintenance, and the type of repairs or maintenance needed fall outside those duties required of the landlord by law (see page 7 of this Handbook: Landlord Rights and Responsibilities), it is presumed that is the repairs and maintenance are the responsibility of the tenant
If the lease specifically allows them to recover attorney fees if there is a legal battle, you could be on the hook for both expensive repairs and the legal battle. There's some wiggle room over exactly what the functional plumbing required by the law requires - do you really want to engage in thousands of dollars of legal battles over it?

Like, I feel like reasonably, he seems like a chill person, surely he wouldn't be entering in our apartment at 10:01am even though the lease gives him that right.

I've met three types of landlords with these types of clauses. Ones who've been burned by bad tenants and add all kinds of crazy things to try to protect themselves, ones that just cut and paste some legal sounding boilerplate they find, and really terrible landords.
posted by Candleman at 7:00 PM on September 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


None of those sound like hoa bylaws, those all sound like bizarre landlord rules.

I would look for a different place to rent if you have issues with the lease.
posted by TheAdamist at 7:28 PM on September 8, 2020


Like, I feel like reasonably, he seems like a chill person, surely he wouldn't be entering in our apartment at 10:01am even though the lease gives him that right.

He's deliberately, knowingly offering people a lease (in the middle of a pandemic with the economy under enormous strain) with that clause in it—a clause I've never heard of in my 35+ years of renting elsewhere. He sounds like a real douche to me. If I were your mother, I'd tell you no effing way, and I'd say it sternly.

You wouldn't steer yourself wrong; listen to yourself when you have feelings. You can trust you! Sensitivity is there for a reason, evolved life form!
posted by heyho at 7:38 PM on September 8, 2020 [23 favorites]


It’s not weird to ask tenants to do certain things. I’m responsible for lawn maintenance in my current place, for example. But this seems like a lot.

You absolutely should ask if he could change those clauses, and if he’s unwilling to, you should ask why. Maybe he’s been burnt on something before.

Some of those things are handled by the landlord for a reason. Like, if your pipes are backed up and you hire a shitty plumber who fucks it up even more, you can just move out, and now your landlord is stuck with a unit with fucked up plumbing. Or if you break a windowpane, and instead of just replacing it with a new pane, you install a giant stained glass window with a picture of Satan eating a child. “Hey man, we repaired it.”

That, ultimately, is the big red flag to me. It doesn’t sound like this guy is particularly interested in the value of his property; he just wants to cash your rent checks. There’s a word for property owners like that: slumlord.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:54 PM on September 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


For comparison, I rent in Sydney, NSW, which is extremely expensive, has been a landlord's market for two decades, with a gross inequality of power in favour of property managers, and all these clauses seem (hilariously) excessive to me.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:00 PM on September 8, 2020


Making the plumbing repairs the responsibility of the tenants seems super dodgy to me. Plumbing problems can kind of lurk in the background for years and it would be awfully convenient for a landlord to make their impending plumbing disaster someone else’s financial problem.

And the idea that he could burst in on you at 10:01 the day that rent is due? It doesn’t matter how nice he seems now, anyone who puts that clause in their rental agreement thinks that that level of outrageous behavior is ok. What else is he going to do that invades your privacy and is technically within the rules?

Walk away from this situation. Your instincts are not steering you wrong.
posted by corey flood at 8:07 PM on September 8, 2020 [13 favorites]


I have seen some bizarre and largely unenforceable clauses in leases before but never, ever a clause allowing them to enter your unit without notice for nonpayment of rent on the day due. What's he think he's gonna do? Bust in and shake you down?

Best case scenario: It's just a nonsense clause meant to intimidate. He just wants you guys to know he's RUL SRS BZNESS about rent. This guy is going to be a giant fucking pain in your ass from Day 1 to Day 365 because there is no way you'll deal with him longer than a year.

Likely case scenario: he had some situation where the tenant ghosted his calls and he had to go through pain-in-the-ass official channels to collect or evict, and he wants to bypass those official channels. And someone who wants to bypass official channels is not someone you want in your living space.

Worst case scenario: he's a sick asshole wants to play at being some kind of Tony Soprano bruiser who busts in on you while you're in the shower.

Pass!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:11 PM on September 8, 2020 [14 favorites]


If I were you, I'd first request that the landlord pay for an inspector that you hire, to make sure that the plumbing and pest situations, and any other possible repair situations, are all in tip-top shape before you move in. That's the only way you can be sure that needed repairs are actually not caused by pre-existing conditions.

He might be interested in working through a professional property management company -- to relieve him of the headaches of dealing with repairs -- and you could offer to jointly look into that. This sounds like a guy who does not want to do the work associated with being a landlord; he just wants his money promptly, and to not have to worry about anything. Dude, that's not how owning property works -- it's not a government bond. It's a job, that someone has to do, and if he's not into doing the work or taking on the worry, he should pay someone else to do it. That would be a property management company.

Finally, realize that you do not have to accept the contract offered by the landlord as written. You can propose changes or addenda. Do that. Tell him that it's in keeping with general best practices / lease terms offered by X reputable company, or model it on a sample lease you find on the net. IANAL, but I _have_ negotiated lease terms before. Bonus: you have the ultimate power -- you're probably going to walk away anyway, so you can afford to be polite but firm and see if he's willing to consider changes.
posted by amtho at 8:11 PM on September 8, 2020 [6 favorites]


I'm sorry, but a provision that he can enter your apartment if the rent is not paid by a time certain, to the minute? Nuh uh. NFW. I wouldn't sign this lease unless I were imminently about to be homeless and had absolutely no other choice.
posted by holborne at 8:12 PM on September 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: Just to clarify, the lease does not say to the minute! I just said that as I was echoing phunniemee's example of "10:01am" but it does specifically say "anytime rent is late, Tenant agrees to allow Landlord to access the dwelling unannounced."

And this will be my last comment so I don't thread sit, but I have looked at two of my previous leases (thankfully kept them on file) and none of them had this weird plumbing repair clause! My one from three years ago, which was a condo and had a ridiculously over involved landlord, said "Landlord is responsible for all major repairs, including plumbing, outside of negligence or intended harm of tenant." ! So... yeah. I'm talking to him tomorrow and see if he will add an addendum.
posted by socky bottoms at 8:20 PM on September 8, 2020


Former LL here, also longtime renter.

The breadth of things wrong from your list all add up to: it is not worth your time, now or later, to negotiate with this landlord.

This is not about condo versus apartment or house. This is about a cheap control freak. It's possible he had a bad experience in the past, but no reasonable human would write in a clause that gives him unannounced entry. Both to protect you and him! Sheesh!

Sorry, but this is walk-away territory, this is too far away from reasonable (never mind legal) to negotiate.
posted by Dashy at 8:37 PM on September 8, 2020 [29 favorites]


I rented a house once with a $50 "copay" for any repairs. It was a property management company and unsurprisingly getting anything repaired was a huge pain in the ass as they nickle and dimed every repair, we went two weeks without AC in the middle of a Texas summer, and they accused me, a grown woman, of huffing freon.

I'm older and wiser and I would never sign that lease.
posted by muddgirl at 8:38 PM on September 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


If you don’t pay rent at 10am on the day it is due the landlord wants to enter the premises? Omg what no
posted by jessca84 at 8:42 PM on September 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


A lot of these items (working plumbing, no vermin) seem to fall under the definition of "warrant of habitability," which means that landlords need to provide you with a place to live that meets some basic standards. And it is the landlord's responsibility to make sure they meet these standards, not pass the responsibility or cost onto the tenant.

I would push back, or better yet, walk away from this place.
posted by brookeb at 8:42 PM on September 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


Sorry for the double post, I was just legit shocked by what you listed. (15 year renter, not in CO.) The landlord is straight up telling you they will push your boundaries and nickel and dime you every step of the way. This is a horror movie. Don’t go in the basement.
posted by jessca84 at 8:47 PM on September 8, 2020 [15 favorites]


I've been an owner in several different cities. I would never make my tenants responsible for basic on-going and required maintenance. Rather than pushing back by suggesting an addendum, I'd say the only acceptable lease will have none of the points listed above. Anything less than that, why not walk away? You don't sound overly enamoured of the place, and even if you were, it's a rental.
posted by lemon_icing at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


Is there something phenomenally great about this apartment that you haven't told us about? Apartment hunting sucks, I know, but it feels like the effort it would take to try and negotiate around these bonkers clauses would be better spent searching for something elsewhere.
posted by btfreek at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


So... yeah. I'm talking to him tomorrow and see if he will add an addendum.
Only if there a reason that you would really want this specific apartment.
I suppose there is a possibility that he will just say "yeah, sure" to whatever you suggest but given that these are very far from standard (he didn't just cut and paste it from a generic how to landlord book) I would rate that possibility pretty low. If he starts to negotiate, you probably don't want to get talked into something that will tie you up with a difficult landlord unless there is a really compelling reason to take this place.
posted by metahawk at 8:49 PM on September 8, 2020 [1 favorite]


there is just such a disconnect between "the rent is late" and "I can just walk into your apartment" like, what does that accomplish? why would entering your apartment help if the rent is late? is he going to grab your stuff to sell it to cover rent? It makes no sense!
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 8:50 PM on September 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


Response by poster: (Ok I SWEAR this is my last comment.) The only reason we are willing to talk to this guy (even with all these comments, which make me feel a lot better about pushing back) is because it's a pretty beautiful apartment in a cute part of a NW neighborhood on a very popular street for a very reasonable price with parking included! It almost seemed too good to be true. And the landlord has been very open and willing to chat. And literally every single place we have looked at has been gone in 1 day after reaching out, as Denver is still pretty hot of a market. This one has been available because the landlord told us he was picky and "got a good vibe from us" and said he's not in a hurry to find someone, so he'd hold it for a bit while we look around. There are just a couple of things that bother us about the apartment, otherwise I'm not sure why we hesitated so much. With the lease though... urgh.
posted by socky bottoms at 8:59 PM on September 8, 2020


Those terms are hideous. I would never rent from someone who demanded these. They remind me of some of the rules in place at Kushner properties that exist basically to extort tenants: they put in a lot of very strict terms and then hold you to the letter of them, allowing them to evict, and keep deposits. Avoid! Run!
posted by Miko at 9:07 PM on September 8, 2020 [4 favorites]


the landlord told us he was picky and "got a good vibe from us"

Oh....so, he's probably racist, too.

I admit that's an assumption, but we've seen this movie before. Run.
posted by Miko at 9:08 PM on September 8, 2020 [21 favorites]


Your last update is all the more reason to walk away. I very much would bet money that it had not been rented because other prospective tenants walked away, not because he’s picky.

He likes your “good vibe” because you didn’t immediately turn the other way.

I’ve also been renting for 15 years and have never seen something like this and would never agree to it—and I’ve had some shitty landlords. You are expected to sign on to pay all repairs when you don’t know the history or state of things? Are you ready to pay several hundred dollars repeatedly to fix shitty plumbing? Or may several hundred dollars repeatedly for pest control?

Stop trying to talk yourself into a bad decision and keep looking. I wouldn’t even bother negotiating—he is putting up so many red flags it’s not worth it.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 9:09 PM on September 8, 2020 [22 favorites]


I'm a homeowner. Do not agree to be responsible for all plumbing repairs. THOSE CAN BE EXPENSIVE!!! Are you certain everything currently works? Are you willing to shell out $1,500 for when you find out the toilet needs to be replaced?? Same for pest - our landlord had to shell out over $10k when he found rats in the attic, how fun does that sound to you?
posted by Toddles at 9:11 PM on September 8, 2020 [5 favorites]


If something is too good to be true, then it probably is.
posted by lemon_icing at 9:27 PM on September 8, 2020 [9 favorites]


Oh, yeah I've gotten the "I'm picky but I like you" from a prospective landlord before, because I was young and nervous and deferential enough to let him walk me through the falling-apart unit while other people literally walked in, took one glance around and walked out (and this was in SF a few years back which, if you're talking about hot markets..) I wouldn't buy it, and I wouldn't rent this apartment.
posted by btfreek at 9:33 PM on September 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


This one has been available because the landlord told us he was picky and "got a good vibe from us" and said he's not in a hurry to find someone, so he'd hold it for a bit while we look around.

Oh my god helllllllllllllllll no there is no way in unholy fuck that this guy is not an absolute SHITSHOW.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:34 PM on September 8, 2020 [21 favorites]


I've only ever seen the pest thing once before. And it struck me as so unusual (after years and years of renting) that we told the realtor we couldn't sign it without a certification from the landlord that the house was currently pest-free. And she just kept saying "it's just a standard part of the app." We walked away. And that was without any of the stuff about plumbing and glass and whatever else.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 9:37 PM on September 8, 2020 [7 favorites]


Wow, those are horrible. The only thing that miiight make sense of this if the landlord is used to being a commercial landlord, and is newly a residential landlord. But doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't sign that lease.

If you want some action steps / more data:

Straight out tell him that you're open to signing but need those clauses removed, and that you're happy to talk. See what his response is.

If his response is "hmmmmmm I don't know.... but maybe, let's talk" then he might be reasonable. If his response is "NO WAY, this is a firm line", then walk away.

Either way, negotiating to change the lease terms is totally standard and normal, and will also give you a taste of what his personality will be like as a landlord.
posted by suedehead at 9:38 PM on September 8, 2020 [2 favorites]


I've had some really terrible landlords and even they weren't dumb/brazen enough to write up a lease like this.

#1 on your list is so beyond the pale I can't believe you're even considering it with all the rest. I had a hot water heater go out in a rental once and getting my lazy slumlord to fix that was a nightmare, and he didn't try to pawn the problem off on me.

RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!
posted by bradbane at 10:21 PM on September 8, 2020


Just pulled out my lease terms (Vancouver BC), which has kind of similar terms related to windows and plumbing but way more obviously occupant-caused damage related:

"The resident shall be responsible for:

A. The costs of repairing plugged toilets, sinks, dishwashers, drains and the costs of all damages resulting directly or indirectly therefrom.
B. The cost of replacing or repairing windows, screens, light fixtures, bulbs fuses, damaged, broken or removed during the tenancy.
C. repairing any damage caused by windows or doors left open to inclement weather. "

Your lease's terms seem draconian or perhaps sloppily written. I would walk away based on the 10am rent rule alone.
posted by urbanlenny at 10:54 PM on September 8, 2020 [3 favorites]


You SHOULD have a “bubbling bad gut feeling” about any landlord who wants to enter your apartment without warning if your rent is late. This landlord is far, far past unreasonable, hurtling toward unhinged. Don’t negotiate. Walk away. You will have no peace of mind if you rent from this landlord.

By the way, the price is not cheap. Add in an extra $20,000 a year for clause no 3 (plumbing) and $10,000 for no 6 (pest). Pipe bursts wile you are out and damages flooring and condo below? $20,000, easy. Neighbor gets bedbugs and HOA requires every condo owner to pay for expensive, ongoing eradication services? $10,000, easy. Even if the landlord removes all six offending clauses, you know you are going to have trouble with this landlord.

Also by the way, these are just the six clauses you noticed. What about the other clauses you haven’t noticed, where you would be signing away other rights or taking on other duties and expenses? Please, run away.
posted by KayQuestions at 1:33 AM on September 9, 2020 [6 favorites]


Unless you throw some kind of epic destructive party, you should NOT be the person who pays for vermin, broken glass, plumbing problems, and "any repair after the first repair." The landlord owns the property, is capitalizing on it, and should be responsible for its maintenance including wear-and-tear.

One possible script could be:
"Hey landlord, we are fine paying for exceptional repairs if we do something wrong to cause them, but don't feel comfortable agreeing to pay for repairs that are incidental or caused by ordinary wear and tear. We are good tenants with good rental histories that you can check with our old landlords, and rarely cause problems in buildings. Would you be willing to adjust these clauses to say that we will only pay for repairs caused by negligence?"

But this lease is so dodgy-sounding that personally? I'd just forget about the place and keep looking. The number of weird, ungenerous clauses in that lease speaks to me of a person you don't want to be in relationship/beholden to.
posted by hungrytiger at 1:33 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]


Find another apartment. The landlord is a creep.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 3:24 AM on September 9, 2020 [2 favorites]


Paying for repairs as a renter? Nope nope nope nope. And that's not even considering the other weird components of the lease.
posted by emd3737 at 5:31 AM on September 9, 2020


What I want to know, or want you to think about, is what the landlord is going to do entering without notice when your rent is late. Is this the type of person who thinks he can start throwing you out right then -- i.e. an illegal eviction? It happens a lot and sometimes the cops won't intervene even if you are illegally thrown out. With these other lease clauses I would be side-eyeing this a lot. Also the plumbing problems but someone else already covered that, those can be super pricy. It sounds like this guy wants to be a landlord but not do any work or pay out of pocket.

I declined to sign a lease once that had the provision that if the landlord found out you had a pet that wasn't on the lease, they could enter your house and take your pet to the pound. For real. Landlords will try anything.
posted by possibilityleft at 6:16 AM on September 9, 2020 [4 favorites]


If the apartment is so great then it's worth telling him (not a negotiation! no compromises!) to take out those ridiculous clauses about you being responsible for plumbing, pest control, and glass damage. If he's as nice as you say he is, he should have no issues striking these requirements from his lease agreement!

Honestly in comparison to these almost-certainly-literally-illegal clauses, the rent thing is small potatoes, you can just consider the last day of the previous month to be your due date and deal with rent that way. It's nowhere near as bad as you having to shell out thousands of dollars to fix a cockroach or termite or rat infestation that has existed long before you.
posted by MiraK at 6:17 AM on September 9, 2020 [3 favorites]


Frozen pipes? You'd be responsible for something nearly entirely dependent upon the weather (which you do not control) and the insulation/layout of the plumbing (which you also do not control). That is COMPLETELY INSANE. And unlike a property owner, you can't get insurance to cover that - I'm pretty sure you'd be hard-pressed to find a renters insurance policy that covers non-negligent damage like frozen pipes to another person's property. That's what his insurance is for!

Similarly, "pest control" is very vague. What if the reason for the pests is not your level of cleanliness but major gaps and cracks in the house allowing vermin to enter? Are you to pay for that abatement that could include replacing rotted wood, filling gaps around pipes and at rooflines or in basements? What if the source of the pest problem is other units in the building?

I've replaced air filters at nearly every rental I've lived in as an adult, at my own cost, because otherwise it only happened at best once a year and I have pets and prefer monthly replacement. But even that was my choice, not written in any leases.

The clauses about access to the unit (FIRM NO) and a co-pay for repair requests are indicative of a problem landlord as much as they are practical concerns. The co-pay is to discourage you from making repair requests (whatever remains his responsibility after all those lease clauses). A good property owner wants to know what is wrong to fix it correctly and get ahead of things before they become bigger problems. This person seems like he wants to set it and forget it w/r/t renting out property and that's just not how it works. He is likely to do the bare minimum of keeping the place habitable and pressure you via lease clauses and scare tactics about co-pays, etc. to do his job of maintaining the property for him.

If you can get him to remove entirely every single one of those clauses from the lease, then maybe you could consider it if you are desperate and you are willing to take the chance that he is going to be just as reluctant to actually maintain the property as this seems to indicate. I can kind of see how each of these clauses could have been added after a tenant did something that cost him money. But that's part and parcel of owning a rental property, and it's weird and shitty for him to try to lease-clause his way out of those expenses. It's indicative of someone that is not up for the expense and work of the income stream he has chosen. Personally, if I had any other options I would just walk away.
posted by misskaz at 6:22 AM on September 9, 2020 [4 favorites]


Bizarre clauses added to a lease are a giant red flag that the landlord is awful. It doesn't matter if he seems nice right now. I've had landlords seem lovely and reasonable until I signed the lease, then they quickly turned into abusive, power tripping assholes. I'd walk away from this place and never look back. I don't care how nice an apartment is, the stress from a bad landlord can ruin your year.
posted by Stoof at 6:32 AM on September 9, 2020 [8 favorites]


Sorry for the double post, but it seems like this person thought "instead of selling this condo I no longer need/live in, I'll take advantage of the hot Denver real estate market and make a few bucks renting it out while it continues to appreciate in value, and then sell the minute it appreciates in value to the right price point or it becomes too much of a hassle/expense to maintain."

These one-off owner-landlords can be really difficult to rent from because they don't truly understand what it means to own an income property, and resent anything that cuts into that income stream. Chances are nearly 100% you won't get your security deposit back as he charges you for normal unit wear and tear/turnover - I had a landlord like this who charged me $1000 to replace 10+ year old carpet in 3 small bedrooms, which is well past the typical replacement age of carpet in a rental but I didn't have the interest/will to fight him. He really seemed to resent that he had to put any money into the unit between tenants at all, even though I started as a sub-letter from the previous tenant and lived there myself for multiple years, so it had been at least 5 years since he even had to do anything in between tenants.

Also, are you sure he won't suddenly list the unit for sale out from under you? Are you sure condo owners in this building are allowed to rent out their units? Double check those bylaws!
posted by misskaz at 6:34 AM on September 9, 2020 [9 favorites]


If you go ahead with the addendum, I would make darn sure he's going to repair things promptly, using licensed professionals (i.e. my last landlord used people who were semi-competent who he found on Craigslist... for electrical work, I think), and with some kind of penalty if he doesn't, OR you agree on a provider for, say, plumbing work and electrical work ahead of time and you get to call them and he pays if it's an emergency (you'll need to explicitly list what an emergency is, i.e., any leaks/overflows, no hot water -- otherwise he won't understand why you can't just get ready for work with a cold trickle of water coming out of the bathtub spigot).
posted by amtho at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2020


This one has been available because the landlord told us he was picky and "got a good vibe from us" and said he's not in a hurry to find someone,

This is 100% not why it’s still available. It’s still available because this situation is a nightmare. And yes, as mentioned above, this guy is almost certainly a racist. That’s the “vibe” he’s looking for.
posted by corey flood at 9:18 AM on September 9, 2020 [8 favorites]


I know it’s difficult to turn down a nice apartment, but do your future self a big favor and keep looking. Echoing what others are saying: this lease (and landlord) has major issues and you are right to question it!
posted by sucre at 10:48 AM on September 9, 2020


So... yeah. I'm talking to him tomorrow and see if he will add an addendum.

No. YANAL. Any addendum you and the landlord prepare together may well add ambiguities and not precisely cancel out the requirements in the original part of the lease that you want to get rid of.

Instead, STRIKE OUT the problem clauses in the lease, and have both parties sign each strikeout.

Better yet, ask for a standard lease from your local real estate association. Amateur leases ... I can't even.
posted by JimN2TAW at 10:53 AM on September 9, 2020 [6 favorites]


IANYL and don't practice in this area, but my understanding based on talking to my colleagues who do practice in housing and some bad leases people have tried to get me to sign, these six clauses are all illegal. I would not sign this lease.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:57 AM on September 9, 2020


Response by poster: Hello. I know I said I wouldn't comment but I figure people would want an update:

So, I just talked to him and he was open to amending some clauses, particularly about the plumbing. He added negligence and careless use. What he would not amend were things about glass repairs or other related repairs, or pest control. I can tell he was burned by his stories about tenants, but that ultimately made me more uncomfortable about how he would talk about them. He just needs to protect himself, he said. I said absolutely understand, but I wanted to protect myself too, against unreasonable clauses, which is why I combed through this lease.

He said "Well, socky, I think we can keep those clauses in there. I am a reasonable man and we can have a good relationship, you know? I'll only charge you what's fair. I would never charge you if the fridge died because it's 10 years old. But I would if you left the door open for days." Yet he wouldn't amend any other repair clauses that I was responsible for to add negligence or careless use. He said it put him in too much danger and he is a fair man, he can go off his word.

GO OFF YA WORD MY ASS THIS IS A LEGALLY BINDING DOCUMENT

He also wouldn't clarify what "attachments" were that were listed in the lease but not provided. He just said he'd delete those. No explanation even though it says I'd still have to agree to them.

Yeah. I'm going to keep looking.

Oh! He did compliment me to say that "Looking through his lease this thoroughly really helped him improve the lease." Tuh. This man better pay me for this extra labor.

Thanks all for your advice. Super bummed to lose a nice apartment but I think it's for the best and appreciate you all pointing out the strangeness of it. I'm hoping we'll be able to find a normal Denver lease one day. (Oh also I chuckled at the racism comments which totally are valid concerns! He is white and I am black but maybe he sensed the pushover in me and that was his *good vibe.* I'm good vibing myself all the way out of this weird lease.)
posted by socky bottoms at 11:02 AM on September 9, 2020 [42 favorites]


Way to be strong and limit your personal risks. Interesting responses - I get that it sucks to constantly repair a place that's not cared for by its tenants, but he doesn't seem truly willing to absorb the risks and realities of being a landlord. He's ready to come down harsh on people, and view everything in the grimmest light, which would never bode well for the future. And yeah when you start "picking" among people it's always worth wondering ...on what basis is this picking being done?

Best wishes to you in the hunt - I hope you end up with an even better place.
posted by Miko at 12:49 PM on September 9, 2020 [5 favorites]


Worst apartment I ever had also came with the most involved, intensive lease I had ever seen. Tons of amendments absolving them from responsibility for every outlying scenario possible. For some reason I thought that meant they were pros. Instead, cut to me paying full rent when the elevator would be routinely broken for days at a time every month (fun when your apartment is 5 stories from your parking spot), multiple rounds of building plumbing breaks (yay sewage pouring in and flooding the parking garage!)...etc...etc...etc. When they tried to up my rent after a year despite all the issues, I moved out.

Any leasing party who puts that much effort into attempting to minimize their liability in the event of practical issues is not interested or invested in supplying you with a high quality living space. I'm glad you passed on this place!!!
posted by amycup at 11:33 AM on September 11, 2020 [1 favorite]


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