Do I have any shot at Italian citizenship?
September 1, 2020 5:54 PM   Subscribe

I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but I want to put this fantasy to rest.

My paternal grandfather was born in Italy but came here early in the 20th century and married an American. Thus, Category 3 would not apply, since my grandfather, married to an American, would no longer have been considered Italian, right?

Category 3: father born in the United States or other Country (except Italy), your grandfather was Italian at the time of his birth and neither you nor your father ever renounced your right to the Italian Citizenship.
posted by swheatie to Law & Government (22 answers total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
Why would you not? It sounds like your grandfather was born Italian, emigrated to the US, and your father was born in the United States. What makes you think the answer is no? Am I missing something?
posted by holborne at 6:03 PM on September 1, 2020 [2 favorites]


You don't generally renounce your citizenship upon marriage. Sounds like he'd still have been Italian when your father was born.
posted by kitten magic at 6:05 PM on September 1, 2020 [4 favorites]


since my grandfather, married to an American, would no longer have been considered Italian, right?

No?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:17 PM on September 1, 2020


You can have more than one citizenship at once so even when he married an American and became a US citizen he probably remained an Italian citizen unless he formally renounced.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 6:22 PM on September 1, 2020


Response by poster: Wow, I guess I assumed he would have renounced his citizenship upon marriage. Not sure why I made that assumption, but it sounds like that wouldn't necessarily have been the case. So, great! I'll have to delve further.
posted by swheatie at 6:22 PM on September 1, 2020


You've got to figure out when your grandfather became an American citizen. It very well may have been after your father was born - which would give your father (and you) rights to Italian citizenship, as I understand from my admittedly limited research on the subject.
posted by entropone at 6:34 PM on September 1, 2020 [4 favorites]


Thinking about it more, it would make marriage very risky if that were the case.

If someone moved abroad, married there, lost their citizenship of birth and then got divorced, they could end up stateless or at least in an administrative mess pending reinstatement of their citizenship of birth. Particularly since marriage doesn't usually mean instantly acquiring the citizenship of the new spouse. I don't know about international law, or how things were done early 20th C but I don't think you could have policies that leave large numbers of people potentially stateless. It may not have been practical for your grandfather to ever return to Italy, but technically I think he would've remained Italian.
posted by kitten magic at 6:35 PM on September 1, 2020


Tons of resources related to this question here if you want to pursue it further. I am pretty sure the answer is yes, you can get Italian citizenship, basically if you can prove your pedigree.
posted by aniola at 7:28 PM on September 1, 2020 [3 favorites]


Not all countries allow dual citizenship (so its not generally true that you can have multiple), but Italy and the US do [as far as I can tell]. So it's likely that at most he would have had dual citizenship, assuming he ever acquired US citizenship [not automatic and not everyone does --- I am a US citizen, my wife lives in the US, but has not / will not acquire citizenship].
posted by thefoxgod at 10:19 PM on September 1, 2020


Particularly since marriage doesn't usually mean instantly acquiring the citizenship of the new spouse. I don't know about international law, or how things were done early 20th C but I don't think you could have policies that leave large numbers of people potentially stateless.

Citizenship policies were, as a general rule, pretty sexist until the mid-20th century. Specifically, it was generally assumed in many cases that a wife's citizenship was automatically the same as her husband's.

This was true even in the US. Here's an exhaustive history of women's citizenship law. In particular, if your grandmother and grandfather were married between 1907 & 1922, and your grandfather was still an Italian citizen when they married, your grandmother would have lost her US citizenship (!) until your grandfather became a US citizen:
After 1907, marriage determined a woman's nationality status completely. Under the act of March 2, 1907, all women acquired their husband's nationality upon any marriage occurring after that date. This changed nothing for immigrant women, but U.S.-born citizen women could now lose their citizenship by any marriage to any alien. Most of these women subsequently regained their U.S. citizenship when their husbands naturalized. ... [T]he courts held that a husband's nationality would always determine that of the wife....

Happily, Congress was at work and on September 22, 1922, passed the Married Women's Act, also known as the Cable Act. This 1922 law finally gave each woman a nationality of her own. No marriage since that date has granted U.S. citizenship to any alien woman nor taken it from any U.S.-born women who married an alien eligible to naturalization.
posted by Johnny Assay at 4:38 AM on September 2, 2020 [5 favorites]


My maternal grandfather was born in Italy. That got me excited. My mother was born in the US... apparently too many years after my grandfather emigrated, and thus making it impossible for me to use that route out of the U.S. I hope you have better luck.
posted by Hey, Zeus! at 6:17 AM on September 2, 2020


I have done this. (Well, my mother did the paperwork.) It all hinges on whether your grandfather was an American citizen when your father was born. That's it. (My great-grandfather was not naturalized when my grandmother was born. My mother and I therefore qualified.)

(If the citizen were a woman, you'd have to do what's called a 1948 case, which is slightly more of a pain in the ass.)

Once you've determined if you qualify, it's mostly just requesting a lot of paperwork and getting it all translated; getting an appointment; and paying for the thing.
posted by dame at 6:25 AM on September 2, 2020 [2 favorites]


Is / was your father an Italian Citizen? Citizenship is acquired through parents generally, not grandparents. This link seems official and provides more information. Incidentally, for many European countries, while the child of emigrants has the right to the old country citizenship, they need to show substantial presence in the old country to be able to give citizenship to their children.
posted by Dotty at 6:28 AM on September 2, 2020


Italy is very specific in this.

If your grandfather was still an Italian citizen at the time of your father's birth, you qualify for citizenship yourself. The rules are more complicated for female ancestors because sexism but for male relatives it is pretty straightforward.

Call your closest Italian consulate and ask for what documents you would need to present. Then delve into when, and whether, your grandfather became an American citizen.
posted by lydhre at 6:59 AM on September 2, 2020


Response by poster: I know I'm not supposed to jump in here, but, dame, are you suggesting, unlike what others have suggested, that my grandfather would not likely have been both an Italian and an American citizen?

Everyone in my family who might have any knowledge of these matters is dead, and I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the effort to seriously look into it.
posted by swheatie at 7:02 AM on September 2, 2020


I don't think dual citizenship was necessarily that common but it doesn't mean that your grandfather naturalized before your father's birth. From the National Archives: "In general, naturalization was a two-step process* that took a minimum of five years. After residing in the United States for two years, an alien could file a "declaration of intention" ("first papers") to become a citizen. After three additional years, the alien could "petition for naturalization" (”second papers”). After the petition was granted, a certificate of citizenship was issued to the alien."

Most immigrants did not do this right away (there was really no pressing need) and many had children before they even started the process.

If you know the state he lived in at the time you could probably search for his naturalization papers, at least, without too much trouble.
posted by lydhre at 7:09 AM on September 2, 2020 [1 favorite]


I know I'm not supposed to jump in here, but, dame, are you suggesting, unlike what others have suggested, that my grandfather would not likely have been both an Italian and an American citizen?

The Wikipedia article on Italian nationality law seems pretty thorough. There's a lot of information there, but it does say that "Italian citizens naturalising in another country prior to 15 August 1992, while being of legal adult age, typically lost their Italian citizenship at that time." This rule appears to have been in force since at least 1912.

Dual citizenship is, to be honest, a relatively recent innovation in citizenship law, and many countries still strip their citizenship from people who naturalize as citizens of other countries.
posted by Johnny Assay at 7:29 AM on September 2, 2020 [1 favorite]


If you're serious about this, you should do a consultation with one of the many advisors that specialize in this. Many of them do initial phone calls for under $100, and then they can help you locate documents and fill out forms. My mom has been working on this for herself and us since 2014. There was a lot of finding birth certificates and marriage certificates in two countries and translating forms. It's still in process....

Firms that I have not used but found in my research: Dual Citizenship Italian, My Italian Family, Your Italian Passport, Italiamerica, and ICAP.
posted by oryelle at 7:53 AM on September 2, 2020


I did this. You're Italian. We went one more generation back: my paternal great-grandfather was the immigrant.

Getting recognized as a citizen is a process, but it's doable if you are even remotely able to do paperwork and have some extra time and cash. You don't need a lawyer, just time (each US state seems to have their own arcane procedures for getting vital records) and a bit of money and the ability to fill in many forms. Don't expect a customer-service-friendly approach or a willingness to chat from the consular staff, and don't expect them to answer questions that are answered on the consulate website.

That said, I did this in the late 2000s, keeping track of everything in simple manila folders and on a spreadsheet. We did not make the appointment to be recognized until we had every document translated/certified as they wanted in our possession, which took until late 2011, mostly because it was a back-burner kind of thing; we could have absolutely gone faster.

The final appointment was on a Monday in May 2012, and was all business: my whole family went in, said hi, and just walked the official through our ancestry story chronologically over about 15 minutes, systematically working through the documents ("Paternal great-grandfather's birth record?" "Here, document A1." "Oh! You numbered them. That's organized."). It was all fine, and she exhaled a bit after she saw how thorough we'd been - we had extra things, like death certificates for people not in the direct ancestral line, that she didn't care about. She also said she had at least one person a week who just came in with a sheaf of unsorted documents and didn't really get how serious it was. She then got a document together with someone else, stuck a seal on it, and faxed it to Italy. I also was surprisingly allowed to apply for a passport right there and then as we knew we'd be approved; they said they'd take the application right then and process it once word came through - we rushed to the nearest CVS for hilariously bad passport photos. The consulate printed the passport as soon as the recognition had come through (on a day they were closed to the public); we went back on Friday to see if it was done as they had suggested it would be, and it was.

Also, part of being an Italian abroad is that you are registered as one, and can vote in Italian elections for representatives from the constituency where you live worldwide (i.e., you'll send someone from North America, for example, to represent you in parliament in Rome, and vote in referenda). More here.

Overall it probably cost around $1000 in translation and application and passport fees and gas to the LA consulate from another part of California. To me, a person who travels a lot and lives overseas, it's absolutely worth it. Remember that the passport is your/your descendents' ticket to the whole of the EU, not just Italy. I have also had to pop into my local Italian consulate after becoming a citizen for various reasons and it's always been a very chill experience compared to visiting the US one!

Find your local consulate (use the Washington, DC Italian embassy site here to find out which one covers your state), follow their instructions to the letter - they've only gotten better at this as time has gone on, I notice - and after a few years (it takes a while to gather everything, get it translated and then have everything examined by consular officers) you'll be a dual national.
posted by mdonley at 10:37 AM on September 2, 2020 [4 favorites]


Response by poster: Thanks so much to all of you for this great information!
posted by swheatie at 2:35 PM on September 2, 2020


Response by poster: Heartbreak. I just found out that my grandfather was a naturalized US citizen before my father was born. Apparently back then, there WAS no dual citizenship. So when he became a US citizen, that was it for Italy. Sigh. Fantasy over.
posted by swheatie at 6:46 PM on September 3, 2020


I mean, you could always look into emigrating to Italy, if it's somewhere you want to live. It's more complicated without being a citizen already, but there is a process.
posted by Margalo Epps at 10:58 AM on September 28, 2020


« Older Is there a cheap vacuum that would work on this...   |   Style while lounging/working from home Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.