Negotiating Loud Musical Instruments in an Apartment

August 24, 2020 8:28 AM

My wife plays the French Horn. We would like for her to be able to practice, at volume, at home, at least sometimes. How should we manage this with our apartment building neighbors, or is it entirely off the table?

Since we moved in together in an apartment, she has been practicing with a Yamaha Silent Brass mute system. This kit significantly dampens the sound of the instrument, and feeds her digitally modeled/amplified audio through headphones. She’s also used that device, connected through an audio interface, for lessons via Zoom now that meeting her instructor in person is not possible. This all works and we’ve never heard any complaints from the neighbors, but she feels like playing with the mute is more tiring (since it restricts airflow out the bell), and she misses the sound of playing enthusiastically.

This fall, the community college band program she plays with is attempting remote sessions by recording performances and editing them together. She’d really like to be able to play un-muted for these recordings, but neither of us want to anger our neighbors or the management company.

We have neighbors immediately above and beside us. The other three sides of the apartment abut a parking garage, and an exterior wall. We also have access to a small concrete patio surrounded on all sides by a 6ft wooden fence.

We’re wondering if it’s better to contact our neighbors first (eg: to say “hey we’re going to make some noise at this time, please let us know if it’s too much”) or play and then apologize if needed. Is it more likely to cause disruption if she plays inside (probably our upstairs neighbors can hear everything loudly) or on the patio (lots more people end up hearing it, but mostly at softer volume due to propagation in open air)? In non-COVID times I might suggest playing in a nearby park, but playing a brass instrument in public in a city with a mask mandate seems .. not ideal. Obviously we’d schedule things to play during the day on weekends or outside of work hours and before evening quiet time during the week.

For what it’s worth, she’s a skilled musician so this isn’t a “force people to listen to beginner practice noises” situation, more a “not disrupt people with potentially unwelcome music” situation.

posted by Alterscape to Human Relations (40 answers total)

I think a little note put on all of the nearby apartment doors saying something like:

"Hi! I'm Jane in apartment 306. I'm going to be practicing my horn daily from 5-6pm, which will make some noise. If you have a work from home meeting during that hour, another conflict with the sound, or a musical request, please text me at 555-5555."

And do keep in mind that making a short term amount of noise during daylight hours is not an unreasonable request for apartment dwellers--the schedule and note is a courtesy for people who have work or sleeping infants and she should not let herself be kowtowed by any self appointed Karens who might bubble to the surface.
posted by phunniemee at 8:40 AM on August 24, 2020 [24 favorites]

I'm probably biased as a brass player (who has mostly switched to quite instruments in recent years), but I'd personally go for playing indoors during hours when most school-kids are awake with a note to the neighbors that asks if there are specific times they need to be quiet.

But, also, the middle of a park is probably a lot safer than the elevator ride needed to get to it or the restaurants you'll pass on the way. Here, in the downtown of a major city, it's not hard to find a space that's >30 meters from anybody.
posted by eotvos at 8:48 AM on August 24, 2020 [9 favorites]

100% what phunniemee said. When I have to practice at home, I text my neighbors beforehand - with a few hours notice if possible for the one with a baby and the one who works nights - to give them a heads-up. If it's a bad time, they'll let me know. Everyone understands what apartment living is.
posted by minervous at 8:50 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]

People have different ideas and expectations about noise and apartment living. I once had a downstairs neighbor angrily tell me to stop pacing in my living room (which I often do when thinking) at 11 in the morning. (For the record, I am very light on my feet and often surprise people who have not noticed that I have entered a room.) I don't doubt that the guy could hear my footfalls, but also ... it's 11am and I'm walking in my apartment, you know?

I've also had downstairs neighbors who resolutely told us to stop apologizing for the sound of our children running up and down the hall. "We 100% do not care," they said, over and over again until we believed them.

All of which is to say that your wife may not be able to satisfy the quietness expectations of every person who may be affected by her practicing, and that I don't think she should strive to do so. I think that it is reasonable for her to practice at a consistent time so that people can expect it and plan around it. I think it is reasonable for her to let people know, and for her to make adjustments to the practice schedule around the sleeping babies and important zoom calls of her neighbors. I also think it would not be unreasonable to just start practicing, during the daytime hours, and just let people think what they think. If I heard a neighbor practicing a melodic instrument during the day, it would never even occur to me to ask them to stop.
posted by gauche at 9:10 AM on August 24, 2020 [4 favorites]

So normally I'm on team "everyone knows the deal with apartments" when it comes to practicing loud instruments -- I've lived below lots of very amateur guitarists and next door to a child drummer -- but the caveat I'll give here is that during a pandemic, people genuinely may have nowhere else to go during your wife's horn practice.

There's been a LOT less guitar and drumming noise in my apartment since March, and I suspect it's because my neighbors know that. Like, historically when I got tired of hearing the same two chords over and over, I'd go to the coffee shop across the street and chill. That's not an option anymore, so practicing the same two chords over and over is...less cool. (I know your wife is good at the horn, but it's still a lot of loud noise that your neighbors can't escape.)

If she's doing some recordings now and then for a community band, that's awesome and I'd take the advice above of sending a quick text or leaving a note about the times. Patio seems better to me than indoors, too. If she's practicing for an hour a day though, for your neighbors' sake, I'd keep the mute on it.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 9:11 AM on August 24, 2020 [18 favorites]

If you ask me, playing a French horn at full volume in an apartment is 100% off the table during normal times, and doubly so during this pandemic, when people should be staying home.
posted by ktkt at 9:16 AM on August 24, 2020 [76 favorites]

In my opinion, playing loud instruments on an apartment isn't GREAT during normal times but there is also some element of "well, it's an apartment, so sometimes noise is part of life", so it's maybe something you could work out with the neighbors.

But people being stuck at home (like goodbyewaffles mentioned) takes away their options to escape that noise. Also important to consider is that people are trying to WORK from home these days, so even if the neighbors are being quiet, they may be needing to concentrate or in a meeting or whatever and having a horn playing may be super disruptive to that. Just something else to consider.
posted by carlypennylane at 9:21 AM on August 24, 2020 [19 favorites]

As the son of a french horn player, the memory of the loudness would suggest to me that looking into practice space (even a storage unit!) would be much kinder on all concerned. I have to think that something should be available in your area that will take reasonable COVID precautions.
posted by jenkinsEar at 9:26 AM on August 24, 2020 [23 favorites]

It seems to me that this is what rental rehearsal studios and music practice rooms were designed for - providing a place for apartment dwellers to play their instruments as loud as they like without disturbing their neighbors.
posted by Umami Dearest at 9:26 AM on August 24, 2020 [41 favorites]

There is a huge gulf between "apartment living can be noisy" and "enthusiastic french horn playing".

I am a drummer. I have spent most of my life in apartments. I have a practice space, or a friend's house, or a digital kit because it no matter the time of day it is rude to play loud instruments in an apartment.

I used to live above an accordionist and that was fucking torture let me tell you. I swear it could hear that guy's moustache twiddling after every "practice" session.
posted by weed donkey at 9:45 AM on August 24, 2020 [27 favorites]

Is there any part of your apartment you can set up with some sound dampening?
posted by Julnyes at 9:47 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]

As I sit here listening to the bi-weekly neighborhood performance of Concerto for Leaf Blower and Loud-Ass Truck, I would be fucking delighted to listen to your wife's French Horn playing at any time. Doubly so if she had checked in with me ahead of time to make sure the timing was good. There's a really wonderfully-written legal ruling from the forties on expectations in apartment life, and how you are going to hear your neighbors at some point or other. I think scheduling ahead of time, checking with neighbors, and making this an occasional thing rather than a daily one is perfectly reasonable on your part.
posted by kalimac at 10:10 AM on August 24, 2020 [12 favorites]

1) start a 'rehearsal' slack
2) personally in person invite your neighbors
3) suggest a reasonable schedule
4) invite feedback
5) be responsive to mid-rehearsal messages for that one day when 6b has a migraine.
6) be prompt on quitting time.
7) let people know in advance if you will run long (gig coming up, whatev)
posted by j_curiouser at 10:20 AM on August 24, 2020 [4 favorites]

I would just do it in a park, away from other people, at a time when there aren't many people in the park. It shouldn't be that difficult. This is definitely too loud for an apartment building, in my opinion.
posted by Slinga at 10:29 AM on August 24, 2020 [11 favorites]

I'm not sure when the last time people have heard a horn being played in a small space like an apartment, but it's exceedingly loud and not appropriate for a shared building. It's especially not OK when we're many months into a pandemic that has people restricted to being home as much as possible. Even with friendly notes to neighbors, etc. It's a type of loud that can't be easily covered with turning on a fan or TV. This is what studio space is for. Maybe she can ask her instructor or other musician friends for leads on studio space for musicians.
posted by quince at 10:33 AM on August 24, 2020 [27 favorites]

If your town has an all encompassing mask mandate even outside, is it an option to drive outside city limits? At least in a field at worst you're giving the birds and mice a fright.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 10:40 AM on August 24, 2020 [1 favorite]

Another vote for not appropriate (as a musician and apartment dweller, FWIW)
posted by STFUDonnie at 11:02 AM on August 24, 2020 [10 favorites]

Best answer: Please, no. Advising the neighbours of a loud noise at a certain time is for unavoidable things, e.g. construction work or moving that has to be done in place.

Your wife has means of engaging in her hobby (the mute) that is somewhat inconvenient and uncomfortable for her. Playing at full volume in an apartment is basically offloading that inconvenience and discomfort onto your neighbours without their consent.

Times are difficult; we're all missing out on things we enjoy and making do with imperfect approximations. Recognize unmuted playing as a luxury that you are willing to pay for (renting studio space, travelling somewhere remote), or to live without for the time being.
posted by bethnull at 11:25 AM on August 24, 2020 [37 favorites]

I work at a university music department. You say that your wife plays with a community college band program. Does the college have practice rooms that are open to those band members?

The French horn is a beautiful instrument, but having lived with a person teaching themselves violin; down the street from a bagpipe player; and adjacent to our own practice room hallway, I am inclined to say your wife should find a practice space other than the apartment to play at full volume.
posted by wintersonata9 at 11:39 AM on August 24, 2020 [7 favorites]

I know this isn't directly answering your question, but have you considered putting up some acoustic foam in whatever room she practices in? It's a lot easier to dampen sound inside your unit than for your neighbors to block it.

I know this because I have DJ friends that (pre-covid) would throw very small parties in apartments with all of their gear. The first thing they would do is temporarily put acoustic foam over all the walls and put down mats over top of the flooring. They couldn't do much about the ceiling, but they'd usually tack up and hang some layers of fabric which I guess must have helped? I can't say that I ever went next door to see what the sound level was like, but from the hallway you couldn't hear anything unless someone opened the door. They have also been doing this for years without any complaints, although I do know they also let neighbors know and did all of the other things people are suggesting in this ask.

Anyways, acoustic foam is under $100 for 50 sheets or so. It wouldn't be too expensive to line any shared walls her practice room is in. Then throw down a thick rug (or put a rubber rug mat under an existing one) to help dampen the floor. That should help at least a little bit and would might have the side benefit of improving any audio she records in that room.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 11:40 AM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

Not okay during a pandemic. I'm on the fence about full-blown horn playing during regular times, but during a pandemic when people have nowhere to go and are very likely to be working (and schooling) from home? There is basically no time when this is okay, in my opinion. A practice space is the right answer here.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 11:54 AM on August 24, 2020 [11 favorites]

How about a combination approach? She can let the neighbors know she's going to try practicing without a mute and find out from them how they feel about it, instead of just guessing. It may well turn out that it really is too loud, but if you can get the neighbors to give honest feedback that seems like best way to find out.
posted by smartyboots at 11:56 AM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

Further to the combination approach - it might go over better with the neighbors if you explain that you've regularly been practicing with a mute, but have a specific reason (recorded performances) for playing unmuted. Then lay out the (finite) expected number of unmuted sessions you'd need to do for that purpose, and ask whether they would be willing to let it happen, promising that if it turns out to be too loud they can revoke permission. Asking for goodwill might get you better returns than asserting plans. You can try to minimize the number of times you'd need to play in the building by looking for at least partial coverage from other options.

Whatever you do, please don't play first and then ask for forgiveness later. My current work depends on online meetings during nonstandard hours (and I work weekends). A previous job also relied on software that was sensitive to sound and I had a noise filtering setup but not enough to deal with something like a horn. In either case I would have been unable to work during your playing time, and not having any advance notice of it would have made things that much worse.
posted by trig at 12:12 PM on August 24, 2020 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure I'd put it on the neighbors to have to let you know if/when it's too loud; some people are people-pleasers or conflict avoidant and are not going to feel comfortable saying no. As stressful as things are for so many people right now anyway, I wouldn't want to contribute to that emotional load.

If this were a thing where there was a real question over whether it's too loud or not, then maybe having the neighbors chime in would be okay, but a French horn on full blast - which apparently can get up to 106 decibels and often causes hearing loss in its players, according to an article I'm looking at now? - just plain is loud for an apartment and I think the fact that your wife is currently using a dampener suggests that you both know it but just wish it were otherwise. I'm sorry, I know we all wish a lot of things were otherwise right now but this is the situation we're in. Nthing the folks who suggest a practice space or else sticking with the dampener.

(We once stayed in a multi-building complex with a person who practiced trumpet on a daily basis and it was loud enough to be distracting even though he was several buildings over. One day when I had to connect a new computer to my wi-fi network I noticed that a neighbor had named their network "Smelly Trumpet," and I hope that that brought them some level of petty satisfaction)
posted by DingoMutt at 12:18 PM on August 24, 2020 [8 favorites]

Best answer: Dear god no. Listening to a French horn at full volume daily is NOT expected normal apartment living (which I've been doing for 20 years). Especially not now when everyone is stuck and working from home. (I'm a physician doing telemedicine from home since COVID started. It would be a serious problem if my neighbor starting playing a FRENCH HORN AT FULL VOLUME every day. )

I'm sorry she misses the sound of playing enthusiastically, but we all miss so much right now. Not okay to force that on your neighbors.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 12:36 PM on August 24, 2020 [24 favorites]

Everyone's at home now, of course we should be considerate of people trying to get stuff done at home, but on the flip side, you have to also recognize that we all do everything at home now and there's just flat out going to be more activity/noise than before.

It doesn't sound like she wants to play at full blast all day every day, just for recordings and maybe the occasional practice. For practicing, I'd still try to find a remote outdoor area (can you drive somewhere and/or play in your car?), but recording could be difficult outside (wind and other noises) and depending how locked down your area is, there may not be indoor studio spaces available. Yes horns are pretty loud but I don't think it's an egregious breach of etiquette to ask your neighbors for a couple hours for a few weekends, as long as you stick to what you all agree to.

I'd drop the neighbors a note, explain you've been practicing with a mute (i.e. being considerate during the week) but need to do this specific thing, and ask if it would be OK at these specific times. I would ask them explicitly for their permission, instead of a "let me know if this bothers you", so that you open a dialogue and find a time that won't bother anyone. Hopefully it'll also make them feel more comfortable reaching out later, and then your first conversation won't be them telling you to pipe down.
posted by yeahlikethat at 1:20 PM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

For everyone saying "go to a park!" ...no. As a woman, trying to get *anything* done in a park-- even knitting or laptop-based work-- is a roll of the dice, but practicing music audibly is going to guarantee you that *every* unstable person within hearing distance is going to roll up and want to have a conversation/ask you for change/hit on you etc. They will not take the hint that you're here to practice rather than talk.

At worst, she could attract the attention of people who might do her harm or rob her. Even if she's not carrying cash, French horns are expensive and valuable.

I'm an opera singer in a row house. My neighbours are fine with me practicing and teaching, and I put up with their loud parties. It's an exchange I'm happy to make.

OP's wife's solution is going to depend on their individual neighbours and their temperament. I don't think there's any harm in asking, perhaps via a printed-out flyer under their doors with your number and/or email and the information that she would like to practice the French horn on some evenings for an hour sometime between 5pm and 8pm (or whenever), and if they would like to discuss it or suggest alterations, she would be happy for them to get in touch.

French horn is not the loudest or most intrusive of the brass family. They should thank their lucky stars she's not a trumpeter.
posted by Pallas Athena at 2:50 PM on August 24, 2020 [6 favorites]

NYC-apartment-living rock musician here, and I concur with the consensus. It’s not ok. More so now. You have to use the mute.
posted by spitbull at 2:56 PM on August 24, 2020 [4 favorites]

off the wall idea (forgive me, I really don't know how big a French horn is): is there any way at all she could sit in a car and play? Maybe you know someone with a minivan or other big vehicle that she could sit in?
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:50 PM on August 24, 2020

This guy solved the problem by playing his French horn at a highway rest stop, and apparently he's popular with people in the surrounding area.
posted by lakeroon at 9:30 PM on August 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

As several of your neighbors are probably in the middle of stressing through a Zoom session for their job or a class at school, a neighbor choosing to practice their French horn at volume would be incredibly rude, disruptive, and stress-multiplying. It would be akin to their choosing to do so in the middle of that person’s school or workplace.

Off the table.
posted by blueberry at 10:33 PM on August 24, 2020 [7 favorites]

Best answer: Others have covered whether this is OK, but assuming it isn't, there may be solutions to be found near where you live - I bet there is a lot of unused office space around at the moment. When I had a flatmate who didn't like me practising in the flat, I befriended a local music teacher who let me use his teaching room when he wasn't there. It would be worth asking around to see if there is a space your wife could use.
posted by altolinguistic at 1:49 AM on August 25, 2020 [4 favorites]

Play in the park or rent a space.
posted by oceanjesse at 7:33 AM on August 25, 2020 [2 favorites]

Wow, Lotta French Horn haters being heard here today!

Minority vote: Advise practice at home within reason.

- Note: the player is "a skilled musician" and not beginner atonal screetch/wailing.
- Also not constantly playing double-forte full blast 108db Jumbo Jet volume all the time.
- Probably not playing 8 full hours a day. Or early morning. Or late evening. One assumes.

Practicing an hour or so, not full volume, around the middle of the day: you are allowed to.
Neighbours might not like it, but you're still allowed to.
Note: cheaply constructed apartments carry sound more, hope it's not worst-case.
Some fabric room-dampening helps (walk-in closet if you have one is the best solution).

(I've lived through some living-space noise pollution WAY WAY WORSE than solo French Horn. And that was a struggle. Gimme a little not-bad French Horn any day.)
posted by ovvl at 10:06 AM on August 25, 2020 [3 favorites]

I don't think any of the old rules about what's fine to do in an apartment building, noise-wise, apply during this current period when so many people are doing their jobs, as best they can, from home (plus often trying to make distance learning happen for their kids.) Then after business hours, there are any number of Zoom meetings that are feebly replacing everyone's after-hours activities. It's already a giant struggle. It's not ok to add orchestral instrument noise to it.

Agree that there is any amount of commercial space not being used right now and hopefully you know someone who can help you find some. Good luck and thanks for being a good neighbor.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:19 AM on August 25, 2020 [6 favorites]

Been seeing lots of people practicing brass instruments in Golden Gate Park. Super easy to find a tucked away spot in a large city park.
posted by amaire at 12:22 PM on August 25, 2020 [3 favorites]

I think for the sake of the performance as a very occasional special thing, this is ok, but not for normal practice.

Try to schedule it during off-peak daytime hours, like 630-730 pm is probably ideal, so hopefully nobody is trying to work on zoom at that time because they're all eating dinner, and people's kids are still awake.

I'd make little notes with earplugs and a sealed treat like chocolate, and drop them at doors of the neighbours who share your walls and floors, a few days in advance.

Dear Neighbours,
I got invited to play a zoom concert in a brass band! This will require me to play my French Horn at full volume on Date from Start time to End time (and pad this out with an extra 50% of the time for practice). I am REALLY excited about this concert- it's a special benefit for the pandemic, so it's for a good cause! I wanted to thank you in advance for tolerating a little bit of exuberant tooting! I'll go back to using my mute the next day.
Thanks so much!
Frenchy
posted by nouvelle-personne at 3:46 PM on August 25, 2020 [2 favorites]

Yeah, just... no. Unless you want find that horn gorn.*





*I am shocked no one beat me to this joke.
posted by EllaEm at 6:39 PM on August 25, 2020

French horn is not the loudest or most intrusive of the brass family. They should thank their lucky stars she's not a trumpeter.

:D

Trumpet player here, who lives in a tiny apartment.

I've done the following, and it makes everyone happy:

1. I asked my Apartment Manager about practicing in my unit, with a mute, and only during daytime hours. They agreed that it'd be OK, but if someone complains, I'll have to stop. That was pre-COVID, however. Now that there's COVID, I haven't been practicing at all, because everyone's working from home. I may explore the local parks, however. I miss playing my trumpet.
posted by spinifex23 at 8:33 PM on August 25, 2020 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks everyone for the reality-check. We'll continue practicing and recording with the mute.

For what it's worth, spinifex, you should check out Silent Brass. A friend of mine who plays trumpet recommended it years ago, and the mute really does deaden the sound, but sound reasonable (not great, but more like an unmuted instrument) in the headphones. If I'm in another room, I can maybe just barely hear her playing.
posted by Alterscape at 7:18 AM on August 26, 2020 [2 favorites]