Dating a guy who's never been in love at 38. Red flag?
August 16, 2020 7:44 AM Subscribe
Dating someone I have great chemistry with who is kind and seems to be into me. However, he hasn't had a job in a while, hasn't had a relationship for longer than a year and has never been in love. He says he wants kids but is also fine if he doesn't have them, whereas I'm 36 and want to have them - reasonably soon. Is this going to be too much work?
The main thing that worries me is that he hasn't loved anyone at 38. He was a late starter in relationships; I think he found it difficult to attract women in his 20s (odd as he's stunning and lovely, but he is shy and takes a while to warm up and relax, and he said he was a geek and quite chubby before). He has had a few year-long relationships in his 30s, and it sounds like they were of the anxious avoidant variety (where he was avoidant, they were anxious).
Despite my tendency to insecurity, I actually feel quite secure around him. He's the quiet type, who would find verbal affection difficult, but he does other things like being kind and considerate, generous, very physically affectionate etc. I find being with him relaxing, strangely. And we have the most amazing physical connection which feels very loving (I'm not just making that up; I've been with my fair share of men who can't emotionally connect during sex and this man is the opposite, and it's wonderful).
It's early days - a couple of months in - but given I'm 36 and want kids I thought it was important to have a chat about where he stands on the issue. He said he does want kids, but also doesn't mind if he doesn't have them.
He said a previous girlfriend had been 36 and very anxious about fertility, and had asked him to commit to a timeline of a year. He had said yes, he could see this happening potentially, but that she had perhaps taken it as more of a firm commitment than it was because in his mind it was dependent on whether the relationship was in the right place. 11 months in, she said she was freezing her eggs; he said he was supportive of that but she ended things because she didn't feel that he understood how anxious she was about it and how much support she needed (he said he just had no idea what egg freezing entailed and that he would have supported her had that been communicated - however, it seems she was obviously pretty clear in feeling anxious about the fertility thing full stop, and it feels like maybe he was stringing her along a bit in the hope he would one day grow feelings?).
In short, it sounds like he's a bit avoidant and has been going out with anxious women. I myself can be anxious (although have plenty of secure traits also). When I'm around him, I feel cared for and I enjoy his company. But I am worried that there are too many red flags here. On top of having never 'loved' someone, he has potentially messed someone around with similar fertility worries to me.
Plus, he has been on a career sabbatical for a long time. 3.5 years. 2 years were deliberate; since then it seems like he's been drifting a bit. His previous job was in oil and gas, which he said he couldn't do anymore because of his ethics. He has been spending a lot of time re-planting an allotment for an old man who can't look after it anymore, volunteering for local environmental groups, and has been learning web development skills - has just finished the second of two he has been commissed to do. So he's making progress, but also a little lost I think.
Combined with the other two things, I'm wondering whether this guy is just not enough of a safe bet to build a stable life with? On the other hand, I do really like him and can weirdly see us having a really nice future, but perhaps that's just wishful thinking - and the fact that this is the best sex I've ever had, by a long long way (I am pretty sexual and these things do influence me quite a bit).
The main thing that worries me is that he hasn't loved anyone at 38. He was a late starter in relationships; I think he found it difficult to attract women in his 20s (odd as he's stunning and lovely, but he is shy and takes a while to warm up and relax, and he said he was a geek and quite chubby before). He has had a few year-long relationships in his 30s, and it sounds like they were of the anxious avoidant variety (where he was avoidant, they were anxious).
Despite my tendency to insecurity, I actually feel quite secure around him. He's the quiet type, who would find verbal affection difficult, but he does other things like being kind and considerate, generous, very physically affectionate etc. I find being with him relaxing, strangely. And we have the most amazing physical connection which feels very loving (I'm not just making that up; I've been with my fair share of men who can't emotionally connect during sex and this man is the opposite, and it's wonderful).
It's early days - a couple of months in - but given I'm 36 and want kids I thought it was important to have a chat about where he stands on the issue. He said he does want kids, but also doesn't mind if he doesn't have them.
He said a previous girlfriend had been 36 and very anxious about fertility, and had asked him to commit to a timeline of a year. He had said yes, he could see this happening potentially, but that she had perhaps taken it as more of a firm commitment than it was because in his mind it was dependent on whether the relationship was in the right place. 11 months in, she said she was freezing her eggs; he said he was supportive of that but she ended things because she didn't feel that he understood how anxious she was about it and how much support she needed (he said he just had no idea what egg freezing entailed and that he would have supported her had that been communicated - however, it seems she was obviously pretty clear in feeling anxious about the fertility thing full stop, and it feels like maybe he was stringing her along a bit in the hope he would one day grow feelings?).
In short, it sounds like he's a bit avoidant and has been going out with anxious women. I myself can be anxious (although have plenty of secure traits also). When I'm around him, I feel cared for and I enjoy his company. But I am worried that there are too many red flags here. On top of having never 'loved' someone, he has potentially messed someone around with similar fertility worries to me.
Plus, he has been on a career sabbatical for a long time. 3.5 years. 2 years were deliberate; since then it seems like he's been drifting a bit. His previous job was in oil and gas, which he said he couldn't do anymore because of his ethics. He has been spending a lot of time re-planting an allotment for an old man who can't look after it anymore, volunteering for local environmental groups, and has been learning web development skills - has just finished the second of two he has been commissed to do. So he's making progress, but also a little lost I think.
Combined with the other two things, I'm wondering whether this guy is just not enough of a safe bet to build a stable life with? On the other hand, I do really like him and can weirdly see us having a really nice future, but perhaps that's just wishful thinking - and the fact that this is the best sex I've ever had, by a long long way (I am pretty sexual and these things do influence me quite a bit).
The "never being in love" thing doesn't worry me too much (I was never in love with anyone until I was 35, then I was), I'm more worried that he told a woman he wasn't in love with that he would commit to having children with her within a year? The career sabbatical thing would really depend on his financial security, for me - if he has enough to live on, I personally wouldn't much care whether he's working for money. But if he's likely to end up requiring your financial support, or if he wouldn't be able to contribute enough for you to maintain the lifestyle you want, that's a different situation.
He does sound kind of drifty and avoidant, though, in general. That probably won't change, or won't change on your timeline. Like, he would like to have kids, but does he have much of a sense of what parenthood would be like for him? Would he be willing to be a stay-at-home dad and is that in line with what you would like your family to look like?
He sounds like an enjoyable person, but maybe not the right one for you to build a future with.
posted by mskyle at 8:02 AM on August 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
He does sound kind of drifty and avoidant, though, in general. That probably won't change, or won't change on your timeline. Like, he would like to have kids, but does he have much of a sense of what parenthood would be like for him? Would he be willing to be a stay-at-home dad and is that in line with what you would like your family to look like?
He sounds like an enjoyable person, but maybe not the right one for you to build a future with.
posted by mskyle at 8:02 AM on August 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
Do you love him?
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 AM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 AM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Agree that the love thing is not the big obstacle - just sounds like he's not a great candidate for a committed relationship moving in the direction of family. He has too much work to do - and if you see him "drifting" professional now, it sounds like he's "drifting' in the sense of relationships and responsibility for himself, too. Call him a friend and move on.
posted by Miko at 8:06 AM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Miko at 8:06 AM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
Set aside fertility and commitment concerns, and imagine that it all works out great and you have a baby a year from now. How do you see your life? Well, I had a baby last year with someone I know very well, with both of us in stable careers and neither of us ambivalent about kids, and it's been the hardest year I've ever been through. Is this guy going to commit to being an equal co-parent? Which doesn't mean just picking up some "babysitting" here and there -- in his case, without a career, will he take on the majority of the childcare so you can be the breadwinner? Or conversely, will he start taking his career seriously if you decide you can't be the sole earner? If you have to go without sex for several months due to pregnancy discomfort and round the clock newborn care, will your relationship still be strong, especially when you haven't had a full night's sleep in weeks/months?
posted by redlines at 8:07 AM on August 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by redlines at 8:07 AM on August 16, 2020 [25 favorites]
I don't think it matters that he hasn't loved anyone else. I do think it matters that you're on the same page because it sounds like you want to progress quite quickly (and being 36 and wanting children means that's more than reasonable). You don't sound hugely convinced that he is, nor that he would be capable of telling you whether he was or not.
posted by plonkee at 8:28 AM on August 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 8:28 AM on August 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Is this going to be too much work?
Avoidant, passive, noncommittal, unemployed...way too much work, even without adding your fertility timeline to the mix.
posted by headnsouth at 8:39 AM on August 16, 2020 [52 favorites]
Avoidant, passive, noncommittal, unemployed...way too much work, even without adding your fertility timeline to the mix.
posted by headnsouth at 8:39 AM on August 16, 2020 [52 favorites]
Depends in how you view it. Is this about love or about a business transaction? If this is about love, I would pursue it. If this is transactional in nature (needs to have baby, needs to have job, needs to meet certain benchmarks in certain time), I would make it about the benchmarks and talk to him.
I would add that if this is about having a baby, I would make sure that he is fertile too.
posted by AugustWest at 8:53 AM on August 16, 2020
I would add that if this is about having a baby, I would make sure that he is fertile too.
posted by AugustWest at 8:53 AM on August 16, 2020
the job issue is the big one here for me. (As a baseline, and that's before getting to the issue of how *he* feels about your pregnancy timeline.)
How does he feel about *getting* a job? Does he have a plan for changing fields, if he's not going back to oil & gas?
We've seen several questions here on AskMeFi about spouses who simply will not pull their weight financially and what that winds up looking like for the family and the marriage. It's not good.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:54 AM on August 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
How does he feel about *getting* a job? Does he have a plan for changing fields, if he's not going back to oil & gas?
We've seen several questions here on AskMeFi about spouses who simply will not pull their weight financially and what that winds up looking like for the family and the marriage. It's not good.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:54 AM on August 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
One of my closest friends could have written this question, only she's on the other end now, having wasted years with this guy who was never quite ready to go all in on anything -- children, fully committing to love, a career. It wrecked her life financially and she's most likely missed her window of fertility too. So I say move along and find someone who's more self-realized and knows what they want.
posted by BlahLaLa at 8:56 AM on August 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 8:56 AM on August 16, 2020 [15 favorites]
I don't know, it sounds like maybe you are the one being avoidant. You like him, he likes you, plenty of people don't fall in love until they do, etc. Is the joblessness an issue financially? You don't say it is, in which case, someone who quit an ethically bankrupt job to plant stuff sounds....cool??? Everyone breaks up with everyone they've dated except for one person. And that's if they're lucky.
I think "anxious" is getting a workout here, and it's not super specific; trying to be diagnostic with therapy-speak here is hurting more than its helping. What exactly do you want, and what exactly do you want from him? Do you feel like you can ask for it? If not, bail, but if so, do it and see what happens.
posted by Charity Garfein at 9:40 AM on August 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
I think "anxious" is getting a workout here, and it's not super specific; trying to be diagnostic with therapy-speak here is hurting more than its helping. What exactly do you want, and what exactly do you want from him? Do you feel like you can ask for it? If not, bail, but if so, do it and see what happens.
posted by Charity Garfein at 9:40 AM on August 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
I don't think any of these individual things are total showstopper red flags on their own. But given what you need, it sounds like a lot of work added together. Maybe too much.
posted by grouse at 10:01 AM on August 16, 2020
posted by grouse at 10:01 AM on August 16, 2020
He sounds like a good romantic partner but not a good life partner. If you were in an open relationship with him and also someone who could help you build a home/raise a kid it might be fine.
He sounds adrift, which does not make him a bad person or a bad lover...you don't have to ignore his good qualities. But if you want a family where you are also supported you need to keep looking.
posted by emjaybee at 10:07 AM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
He sounds adrift, which does not make him a bad person or a bad lover...you don't have to ignore his good qualities. But if you want a family where you are also supported you need to keep looking.
posted by emjaybee at 10:07 AM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think the anxious/avoidant thing here is a bit of a red herring, and you may be looking less at a question of attachment styles and more at a basic question about whether your personalities and priorities are a match. He sounds like a lovely, easygoing guy - the type of person who takes things as they come along, and is maybe not terribly decisive about every aspect of his own life. In light of any evidence to the contrary (which you have not described here), I wouldn't assume he's going to approach this situation much differently - or with much more firm commitment - than he has other relationships in the past. I think if a family is your priority, you shouldn't invest a great deal of time in him.
posted by superfluousm at 10:14 AM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by superfluousm at 10:14 AM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
There is a slang term (that is probably not appropriate to post here) that perhaps best describes your man's character/personality. The definition of the term is, "Limited thought or effort is given to a task or idea." I have a feeling you would be changing more diapers, going to more parent-teacher conferences, and doing more disciplining than he.
posted by SageTrail at 10:16 AM on August 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by SageTrail at 10:16 AM on August 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
As a mom of newborns, let me concur that based on your description, this guy sounds he would be a good boyfriend but a deadbeat dad.
posted by athirstforsalt at 10:16 AM on August 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by athirstforsalt at 10:16 AM on August 16, 2020 [12 favorites]
He sounds like a project. You’re really going to have to be proactive with him (commitment timeline, Job timeline) to get him where you need him to be. Some women are willing to do things like this though I personally am not.
Also, I’ve noticed some men seem to shape up and step up to the plate when the time is right to build a family, and I think it’s hard for us to predict whether he is one of these men without knowing him. I think some people in this thread are discounting that possibility. But perhaps I’m overweighting it.
posted by shaademaan at 10:33 AM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, I’ve noticed some men seem to shape up and step up to the plate when the time is right to build a family, and I think it’s hard for us to predict whether he is one of these men without knowing him. I think some people in this thread are discounting that possibility. But perhaps I’m overweighting it.
posted by shaademaan at 10:33 AM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
What struck me most about your post was the question you asked last "I'm wondering whether this guy is just not enough of a safe bet to build a stable life with", combined with the knowledge you definitely want kids. It's not clear that either stable life or kids are priorities for him (and that's ok!) and so it doesn't sound like you are compatible in the long term. I don't think it's fair to call him a project or a potential deadbeat, I don't really see evidence here that he's either, just that you both are approaching life and what you want out of it differently at the moment. But it does seem like you'd be setting yourself up for a lot of unhappiness if you're hoping he's going to change or you're going to be able to change him.
posted by snowymorninblues at 11:01 AM on August 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by snowymorninblues at 11:01 AM on August 16, 2020 [9 favorites]
If you're 36 and you definitely want to give birth to children and raise them with a partner who will be involved in their care, I think you need to look for partners who have the same level of readiness as you, or the same level of desire/urgency as you, or both. This person seems to have neither. I don't think it would be fair or wise to shunt him into your timeline for something he seems somewhat lukewarm about and then see him as a project/deadbeat/too much work, although it seems likely that you would experience him that way.
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:05 AM on August 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 11:05 AM on August 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
It seems this question is mostly trying to determine if this person is in temporarily limbo on his way to a destination or if this is a long-term pattern that he is unlikely to deviate from. I think the deciding factor is decisiveness. Does this person otherwise know what they want and have clear goals? From what you are describing, it does not seem like he does. I also would be very wary given that story about the previous girlfriend who he told he'd be open to kids with. However good his intentions were, his lack of forethought and his willingness to give a positive signal when he wasn't very very sure reveals a lack of awareness and integrity. No solid, ethical adult would give that answer lightly. We all know the stakes in that conversation, and they are high. A good man does not muse casually on the topic of children with a woman in her mid thirties.
I have taken a chance on a number of guys who were lovely but aimless, as have many others. While I imagine there are outlier scenarios that have worked out, I have never personally seen or heard of one where floaty jobless guy became stand-up salt-of-the-earth committed dad guy. Every one I have encountered is still out there drifting around, waiting for something external to them to come together or magically happen to them that changes their lives.
People in temporary limbo still know where they are trying to go, and if there are places they are flexible, they have questions they are awaiting answers on to decide on how to proceed vs unclear preferences. More importantly, they don't let other people with a clear destination into the car to drive in circles with them.
PS I am 36, and now finally in an awesome relationship that started at 35. We have discussed everything important directly, from finances to kids and aging and everything else. I was never once been confused about his direction. I know I can rely on him, and nothing has ever felt more romantic or fulfilling.
posted by amycup at 11:11 AM on August 16, 2020 [22 favorites]
I have taken a chance on a number of guys who were lovely but aimless, as have many others. While I imagine there are outlier scenarios that have worked out, I have never personally seen or heard of one where floaty jobless guy became stand-up salt-of-the-earth committed dad guy. Every one I have encountered is still out there drifting around, waiting for something external to them to come together or magically happen to them that changes their lives.
People in temporary limbo still know where they are trying to go, and if there are places they are flexible, they have questions they are awaiting answers on to decide on how to proceed vs unclear preferences. More importantly, they don't let other people with a clear destination into the car to drive in circles with them.
PS I am 36, and now finally in an awesome relationship that started at 35. We have discussed everything important directly, from finances to kids and aging and everything else. I was never once been confused about his direction. I know I can rely on him, and nothing has ever felt more romantic or fulfilling.
posted by amycup at 11:11 AM on August 16, 2020 [22 favorites]
Agree with everyone who says he's too much work and you'd wind up taking care of a kid alone (if a kid actually happened ; my bet is that it would be like with the last partner -- you'd wind up running before any child was produced).
But that's not the point of my answer. My point is: you love the sex? If he wound up making a commitment and a child did actually get created, I'd bet a LOT that the great sex would disappear too. And not just because of your resentment that now 5-6 years had passed with no job, and a toddler taking up all YOUR (not his) time. But also because, with you in his bed every night, totally available, you would become much less appealing to him (and, of course, vice versa).
Note: I have no evidence whatsoever for what I just posted.
posted by DMelanogaster at 11:13 AM on August 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
But that's not the point of my answer. My point is: you love the sex? If he wound up making a commitment and a child did actually get created, I'd bet a LOT that the great sex would disappear too. And not just because of your resentment that now 5-6 years had passed with no job, and a toddler taking up all YOUR (not his) time. But also because, with you in his bed every night, totally available, you would become much less appealing to him (and, of course, vice versa).
Note: I have no evidence whatsoever for what I just posted.
posted by DMelanogaster at 11:13 AM on August 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I will go in a bit of a different direction here.
Based on what I got out of the former girlfriend thing, this guy does seem to be pretty cognizant of what happened before and the part he played in it. I think if you are forthright now about what you want (specifics like "I want a baby!) and ask him directly, "This is what what happened to you before and now you are in basically the same situation, what are your intentions toward me?" he'll give something like a real answer.
As far as his direction in life, knowing something of the oil and gas industry, did he make any real money in that field?
posted by Fukiyama at 12:24 PM on August 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
Based on what I got out of the former girlfriend thing, this guy does seem to be pretty cognizant of what happened before and the part he played in it. I think if you are forthright now about what you want (specifics like "I want a baby!) and ask him directly, "This is what what happened to you before and now you are in basically the same situation, what are your intentions toward me?" he'll give something like a real answer.
As far as his direction in life, knowing something of the oil and gas industry, did he make any real money in that field?
posted by Fukiyama at 12:24 PM on August 16, 2020 [4 favorites]
This sound less like anxiety/avoidance mismatching and more like he is ambivalent about his or any shared future. I think if you want to move forward you need a clearer answer to your questions than "maybe, maybe not."
posted by sm1tten at 1:21 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by sm1tten at 1:21 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Don't threadsit just to answer this, but a question for you: how much of the relationship-logistics work is he doing right now? If you're living with him, how much household work is he doing?
The answer may provide a hint as to how much life-work and childrearing work he'll do.
posted by humbug at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
The answer may provide a hint as to how much life-work and childrearing work he'll do.
posted by humbug at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Maybe consider how much work you had to put in typing all this out?
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:50 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone. There are some great comments here. I think he would say that from our chat yesterday he gave a clear 'yes' to having kids, but it is all a little bit unclear and in general I feel he's really floating along in life. I get the strong sense he likes my sense of direction and that I'm already building a life for myself, and that he thinks this would be nice to slot into, from things he's said and actions he's taken - he has definitely been trying to show me he would be a worthwhile person to share a life with in lots of practical ways, and it has really felt like we're a good team, in a way which I haven't really experienced before. Just simple things like division of chores; being considerate of me and my time; being chivalrous - not in an old-fashioned way, but a way that makes me feel cared for.
But I'm not sure that's solid enough for me. I think, as some of you say, that I should maybe be focusing on guys that share my priorities clearly and proudly. I always feel a little awkward about that and probably don't ask the right questions, early enough to not be already attached for it then to be more difficult than it needs to be (like this one),
Funnily enough, a guy texted today asking if I was still free for dating (we had been talking during lockdown). I said I was seeing someone, but experimented with asking him if he wanted kids, as I wouldn't be seeing anyone that didn't share that as a priority. He gave a very enthusiastic and clear yes, and made it obvious that me asking had actually made me MORE attractive to him. That felt refreshing and surprising - I don't know why I think it will put guys off to be asked that? And made me think....perhaps current guy is WAY too much trouble than he's worth, if I'm going to be feel anxious like this all the way through.
posted by catfishlady at 1:52 PM on August 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
But I'm not sure that's solid enough for me. I think, as some of you say, that I should maybe be focusing on guys that share my priorities clearly and proudly. I always feel a little awkward about that and probably don't ask the right questions, early enough to not be already attached for it then to be more difficult than it needs to be (like this one),
Funnily enough, a guy texted today asking if I was still free for dating (we had been talking during lockdown). I said I was seeing someone, but experimented with asking him if he wanted kids, as I wouldn't be seeing anyone that didn't share that as a priority. He gave a very enthusiastic and clear yes, and made it obvious that me asking had actually made me MORE attractive to him. That felt refreshing and surprising - I don't know why I think it will put guys off to be asked that? And made me think....perhaps current guy is WAY too much trouble than he's worth, if I'm going to be feel anxious like this all the way through.
posted by catfishlady at 1:52 PM on August 16, 2020 [16 favorites]
He sounds like a project. You’re really going to have to be proactive with him (commitment timeline, Job timeline) to get him where you need him to be.
I came to say this. Being proactive like that is hard work. The risk is that either you never succeed or that you do succeed in the short to medium term, but he wakes up a few years later and blames you for pushing him into a life he never really wanted. (I'm showing my age here but I have watched a few of my friends live the latter scenario in their forties and fifties and it is really not good.)
Finding someone who not only wants the same things as you do, but is in the same state of readiness to build them, is a much better bet.
posted by rpfields at 3:05 PM on August 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
I came to say this. Being proactive like that is hard work. The risk is that either you never succeed or that you do succeed in the short to medium term, but he wakes up a few years later and blames you for pushing him into a life he never really wanted. (I'm showing my age here but I have watched a few of my friends live the latter scenario in their forties and fifties and it is really not good.)
Finding someone who not only wants the same things as you do, but is in the same state of readiness to build them, is a much better bet.
posted by rpfields at 3:05 PM on August 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
Date the other guy who is enthusiastic about kids.
posted by corb at 3:26 PM on August 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by corb at 3:26 PM on August 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
If he was 28 and you were 26 I'd say go for it - a lot of people mature out of their drifting. Ten years later, I think that the things that could have been little red flags are morphed into big ones.
I'm 34 now and I can't imagine dating someone with few answers to big questions. Especially if they're non-committal and vague about the specifics of what they're thinking. I could have in my early 20s, but now I'm like "lets have a real discussion about family planning and retirement goals on our third date."
Him "not knowing" how to support someone he was in a serious relationship with as she went through a fertility procedure which was in theory so they could have pursued a family together, shows that he didn't try to, and then blamed it on her communication. He's 38! He could have googled! He could have went to an informational doctor appointment with her! He could have asked Metafilter! He could have asked HER!
But, the number one thing I don't like from partners is pretend/learned helplessness. I feel like this guy would be one of those guys who are like "I'm happy to help! Just tell me exactly what you need me to do, and tell me exactly how to do it! and then I'll do it when you specifically ask me to do it!" and that's signing up for a lot of emotional labour, and will make you feel needy and like a nag, even without kids. With kids?
posted by euphoria066 at 3:50 PM on August 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
I'm 34 now and I can't imagine dating someone with few answers to big questions. Especially if they're non-committal and vague about the specifics of what they're thinking. I could have in my early 20s, but now I'm like "lets have a real discussion about family planning and retirement goals on our third date."
Him "not knowing" how to support someone he was in a serious relationship with as she went through a fertility procedure which was in theory so they could have pursued a family together, shows that he didn't try to, and then blamed it on her communication. He's 38! He could have googled! He could have went to an informational doctor appointment with her! He could have asked Metafilter! He could have asked HER!
But, the number one thing I don't like from partners is pretend/learned helplessness. I feel like this guy would be one of those guys who are like "I'm happy to help! Just tell me exactly what you need me to do, and tell me exactly how to do it! and then I'll do it when you specifically ask me to do it!" and that's signing up for a lot of emotional labour, and will make you feel needy and like a nag, even without kids. With kids?
posted by euphoria066 at 3:50 PM on August 16, 2020 [20 favorites]
however, it seems she was obviously pretty clear in feeling anxious about the fertility thing full stop, and it feels like maybe he was stringing her along a bit in the hope he would one day grow feelings?)
It doesn't sound like that at all to me, especially because he told you about it himself. he sounds like a guy who is very careful not to make promises he's not sure he will want to keep, and I personally value that kind of scrupulousness fairly highly. he cannot be blamed for anyone's choice to hear "yes" when he says an explicit conditional maybe.
but his laudable honesty doesn't make his maybe into a certain yes for you, any more than it did for his other girlfriend.
a man dating women in their late 30s, who is open to children but not insistent, is doing the smartest thing--if finding a great partner is his priority and everything else is negotiable. This will not make sense to you if having a child is the ultimate priority to you, and partner qualities are negotiable. This does not mean he is sketchy or avoidant, it just means he has different priorities and is not right for you. He is going to paradoxically attract a lot of women with urgent plans, given that women that age usually have pretty clear ideas about their own preference and there is a perceived scarcity of male peers with similar wants (for childfree women, too--strangely.) Having no strong feelings about children is strange to me, but if you're not going to be the pregnant one no matter what, you can afford to care less.
But the other thing is that there are PLENTY of men who want children who would discard a woman if her fertility wasn't in tip-top condition, and since he is dating women approaching the age of worry, I think he is doing something really considerate in making it clear that even if he would enjoy fatherhood, he is not one of those guys. But...you sort of are. so it's possible his failed reassurances and your gentle pressure have both gone unnoticed by the other.
anyway as he said and as you noticed, this is just not important to him in the way it is to you. He does not want a child badly enough to try for one with a partner he doesn't know well enough yet or isn't in love with, and nobody can know that they will or won't be in love with you in six months or a year. The people who settle on a 'good enough' partner or push hard on relationship speed out of trust that they can make do with each other are the ones who want a baby more than they want romantic passion, and feel short on time. and there are a lot of people like this! some of them men. but this guy is not one of them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:17 PM on August 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
It doesn't sound like that at all to me, especially because he told you about it himself. he sounds like a guy who is very careful not to make promises he's not sure he will want to keep, and I personally value that kind of scrupulousness fairly highly. he cannot be blamed for anyone's choice to hear "yes" when he says an explicit conditional maybe.
but his laudable honesty doesn't make his maybe into a certain yes for you, any more than it did for his other girlfriend.
a man dating women in their late 30s, who is open to children but not insistent, is doing the smartest thing--if finding a great partner is his priority and everything else is negotiable. This will not make sense to you if having a child is the ultimate priority to you, and partner qualities are negotiable. This does not mean he is sketchy or avoidant, it just means he has different priorities and is not right for you. He is going to paradoxically attract a lot of women with urgent plans, given that women that age usually have pretty clear ideas about their own preference and there is a perceived scarcity of male peers with similar wants (for childfree women, too--strangely.) Having no strong feelings about children is strange to me, but if you're not going to be the pregnant one no matter what, you can afford to care less.
But the other thing is that there are PLENTY of men who want children who would discard a woman if her fertility wasn't in tip-top condition, and since he is dating women approaching the age of worry, I think he is doing something really considerate in making it clear that even if he would enjoy fatherhood, he is not one of those guys. But...you sort of are. so it's possible his failed reassurances and your gentle pressure have both gone unnoticed by the other.
anyway as he said and as you noticed, this is just not important to him in the way it is to you. He does not want a child badly enough to try for one with a partner he doesn't know well enough yet or isn't in love with, and nobody can know that they will or won't be in love with you in six months or a year. The people who settle on a 'good enough' partner or push hard on relationship speed out of trust that they can make do with each other are the ones who want a baby more than they want romantic passion, and feel short on time. and there are a lot of people like this! some of them men. but this guy is not one of them.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:17 PM on August 16, 2020 [13 favorites]
Excuse me for being unromantic going forward, but you’re going into all of this with quite an analytical outlook. It seems like you’re ok to have a child with someone whose not in love with you if the rest of it looked good on paper so with that in mind these are the things I would consider.
Raising a child with someone is hard enough even when you’re both ready for it, have planned for it, have jobs that can cover the costs and are medically ok to go through with it. I can’t imagine how much harder it would be to parent with someone who is in no way prepared for it and isn’t even sure if they want a child or love their child’s mother.
And that’s just how it could affect you. Personally I think the single biggest decision a parent can make in their child’s life begins before they’re even born and that’s choosing who to have the baby with. The father of the your child (together with you, clearly) could well determine if your child is raised in poverty or relative comfort. If they’re raised in an abusive or safe environment. If they inherit or develop mental or other illnesses due to how they were raised or their genes.
If they’re in an environment that’s conducive to learning or doesn’t value it. Your coparent contributes massively to how your child’s life will unfold based on what they bring or don’t bring to the table.
Yes, if things get rocky, you can be a single parent and navigate your way through all of this and come out the other side - people do it all the time, but it doesn’t seem like this is your ideal setup. If you at least try to select well in the first place, you might be able to avoid some clear pitfalls from the outset when deciding whose going to father your baby.
posted by Jubey at 4:42 PM on August 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Raising a child with someone is hard enough even when you’re both ready for it, have planned for it, have jobs that can cover the costs and are medically ok to go through with it. I can’t imagine how much harder it would be to parent with someone who is in no way prepared for it and isn’t even sure if they want a child or love their child’s mother.
And that’s just how it could affect you. Personally I think the single biggest decision a parent can make in their child’s life begins before they’re even born and that’s choosing who to have the baby with. The father of the your child (together with you, clearly) could well determine if your child is raised in poverty or relative comfort. If they’re raised in an abusive or safe environment. If they inherit or develop mental or other illnesses due to how they were raised or their genes.
If they’re in an environment that’s conducive to learning or doesn’t value it. Your coparent contributes massively to how your child’s life will unfold based on what they bring or don’t bring to the table.
Yes, if things get rocky, you can be a single parent and navigate your way through all of this and come out the other side - people do it all the time, but it doesn’t seem like this is your ideal setup. If you at least try to select well in the first place, you might be able to avoid some clear pitfalls from the outset when deciding whose going to father your baby.
posted by Jubey at 4:42 PM on August 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Since I am going through a whole boring ordeal of custody/support process, I can say that in my jurisdiction, if you had a child with this man and then (based on his history) split up, it would be likely that you would be either at 50/50 custody with him OR he would have primary custody and you would have access since you are the breadwinner and he has time to parent. You would be responsible for child support to him as well as possibly some limited spousal support.
Having a child together is a legal as well as emotional relationship. My ex was pretty passive, like your ex, but when the promise of a big payout came around he (and his out of the woodwork family members) suddenly was VERY active in pushing for way beyond what he deserved, to the severe detriment of our children. Would you want to go-parent with this person after the relationship dissolved and the great sex was gone?
posted by saucysault at 5:10 PM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
Having a child together is a legal as well as emotional relationship. My ex was pretty passive, like your ex, but when the promise of a big payout came around he (and his out of the woodwork family members) suddenly was VERY active in pushing for way beyond what he deserved, to the severe detriment of our children. Would you want to go-parent with this person after the relationship dissolved and the great sex was gone?
posted by saucysault at 5:10 PM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
That thing about being afraid mention of kids will put guys off? Retire that. It might have had some usefulness when you were much younger and people weren't ready to rush into a settled life, but at the age you are it's not a game worth playing. If it does happen to put a person off, then congratulations, you've weeded out yet another unsuitable dating prospect without wasting any more time on them. But there's no value in playing that soft only to stumble on a roadblock there later. You can't wheedle someone into wanting kids (or if you do, you're liable to regret it). Someone in their 30s has had the time to decide what they want. Be clear about what you want, and ruthless about thanks-but-no-thanks to people who aren't pretty sure they're interested.
posted by Miko at 5:19 PM on August 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by Miko at 5:19 PM on August 16, 2020 [14 favorites]
Nthing that this guy seems like a project. additionally, the two of you seem like you're in different places in your lives-- you definitely want kids and he's "i guess i could?" about it. he has no job and no clear path toward getting one. you have great chemistry, but raising kids together takes more than that. you need a PARTNER-- is he that?
posted by hollisimo at 5:31 PM on August 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by hollisimo at 5:31 PM on August 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
He's late 30s and never been in love, and has had basically no long-term relationships (a year is not really a long term relationship IMO). Things I would want to know include; What does being a husband/partner mean to him? How does he visualize a long term partnership/marriage working? He's not opposed to fatherhood, so what kind of father would he like to be? What does being a father mean to him? Does he understand the sacrifice and selflessness required of partnerships and parenthood?
My sister married a guy similar to yours (kids off the table). Their honeymoon is definitely over; she is exhausted from project managing their entire life because he is clueless, and throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way (he does cook for them). She tells me, "it's like having a toddler. And I never wanted kids!" Everyone thought it was super sweet and romantic that he had never been in love before, and he would "grow up" once married.
posted by socrateaser at 7:01 PM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
My sister married a guy similar to yours (kids off the table). Their honeymoon is definitely over; she is exhausted from project managing their entire life because he is clueless, and throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way (he does cook for them). She tells me, "it's like having a toddler. And I never wanted kids!" Everyone thought it was super sweet and romantic that he had never been in love before, and he would "grow up" once married.
posted by socrateaser at 7:01 PM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
For their sake, please do not have children with a grown man who is indifferent to having them and has never known love.
Also, you deserve to be with someone who is head over heels for you, not someone who is like “eh, this’ll do for now”.
posted by blueberry at 10:14 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, you deserve to be with someone who is head over heels for you, not someone who is like “eh, this’ll do for now”.
posted by blueberry at 10:14 PM on August 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Your last update about him reminds me of amycup's comment - that he's the type that is "waiting for something external to them to come together or magically happen to them that changes their lives."
You should ask yourself if you love him enough to put in this effort. I actually think he does have the potential to uh, blossom, with someone who wants to put in that work. Personally, I'm delighted with having partner who has agency and ambition, especially with a toddler and another on the way. But I know women with more "project" type partners and they seem happy too. They like that they arrived in to "save" their husbands and build their dream life with very little pushback (or involvement, but that's just my opinion). But those women are definitely a certain type of person that I know I am not.
posted by like_neon at 1:33 AM on August 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
You should ask yourself if you love him enough to put in this effort. I actually think he does have the potential to uh, blossom, with someone who wants to put in that work. Personally, I'm delighted with having partner who has agency and ambition, especially with a toddler and another on the way. But I know women with more "project" type partners and they seem happy too. They like that they arrived in to "save" their husbands and build their dream life with very little pushback (or involvement, but that's just my opinion). But those women are definitely a certain type of person that I know I am not.
posted by like_neon at 1:33 AM on August 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
To your question: is this a guy a safe bet to build a stable life with? If you want to get really methodical, you could write out what a stable life looks to you. What do you expect or envision a partner to do and be in your shared life with you? (And yes, sexual compatibility is important, lots of relationships/marriages break up due to sexual incompatibility) Write it all out. Does current guy meet those expectations? Talk to him about what you want. Be completely open and honest. Pay attention to what he says. Make decisions from there.
I don't know why I think it will put guys off to be asked that?
It's because we've been trained from birth to please men and not speak up for what we want. We've been trained to think that speaking up will scare men off. Men have been trained from birth to be entitled and expect women to cater to their needs and not have any needs of their own. Some men definitely don't want to hear what a woman says or care about her needs/wants. But with the right guy, a woman being a go-getter, being her own person, knowing what she wants and being open about it is really hot. Is new guy one of those? Only one way to find out.
posted by foxjacket at 7:40 AM on August 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
I don't know why I think it will put guys off to be asked that?
It's because we've been trained from birth to please men and not speak up for what we want. We've been trained to think that speaking up will scare men off. Men have been trained from birth to be entitled and expect women to cater to their needs and not have any needs of their own. Some men definitely don't want to hear what a woman says or care about her needs/wants. But with the right guy, a woman being a go-getter, being her own person, knowing what she wants and being open about it is really hot. Is new guy one of those? Only one way to find out.
posted by foxjacket at 7:40 AM on August 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm going to put in a different opinion from the pile-on this has become. I don't see red flags here. I don't understand why people are painting him as an irresponsible toddler who won't pull his weight.
Not everyone falls in love easily or has the chance to meet the right person young. Some people also need time to mature and grow comfortable with themselves first. Plenty of people fall hard when they are in the right situation with the right person even if it hasn't happened before. And frankly, experience living alone for extended periods often helps a guy be more independent with regard to household things.
It doesn't sound like his job situation is causing financial issues? If not, I see nothing wrong with taking a break to learn new skills and give back to the world through volunteer work, esp. if you feel like your career was on the wrong ethical path. I would love the fact that he realized he couldn't ethically continue down the path he was on. I would encourage him to find meaningful work.
Honestly, I would be happy with someone who could see themselves happy both having kids or not having kids. It in no way means that he won't be a good parent (why are people assuming that???) or a good parenting partner. It just means he is flexible--which is good!
I don't think you can know enough about the situation with the previous partner to draw conclusions, honestly.
You describe someone who is caring, calming (super important if you are an anxious person having kids), and a joy to be with. Someone who matches you in bed. (Please don't discount that as much as people above are saying. I'm another very sexual person and having a partner who fits so well in bed has helped me stay sane and happy---and no, our sex life wasn't killed by having kids.)
Questions I think are useful to ask yourself and him (though honestly, two months in to my relationships, I could never have answered "making a life together" questions without knowing someone better):
Do you observe him being able to take care of himself and his life: his (clean?) home, bills, health, cooking, etc? That's a good (not perfect) indicator of whether he will keep doing these things.
Does he see himself getting a job? Being a full-time parent? How does he see your finances working together?
Does he love you? Do you love him? Life isn't just practicalities. Love can pull you through the rough days of parenting.
How would he want to raise children? Free-range? Very controlled and strict? What would he see as his role vs. yours?
How does he seem to view women and their traditional roles vs. men and theirs?
posted by mkuhnell at 8:02 AM on August 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
Not everyone falls in love easily or has the chance to meet the right person young. Some people also need time to mature and grow comfortable with themselves first. Plenty of people fall hard when they are in the right situation with the right person even if it hasn't happened before. And frankly, experience living alone for extended periods often helps a guy be more independent with regard to household things.
It doesn't sound like his job situation is causing financial issues? If not, I see nothing wrong with taking a break to learn new skills and give back to the world through volunteer work, esp. if you feel like your career was on the wrong ethical path. I would love the fact that he realized he couldn't ethically continue down the path he was on. I would encourage him to find meaningful work.
Honestly, I would be happy with someone who could see themselves happy both having kids or not having kids. It in no way means that he won't be a good parent (why are people assuming that???) or a good parenting partner. It just means he is flexible--which is good!
I don't think you can know enough about the situation with the previous partner to draw conclusions, honestly.
You describe someone who is caring, calming (super important if you are an anxious person having kids), and a joy to be with. Someone who matches you in bed. (Please don't discount that as much as people above are saying. I'm another very sexual person and having a partner who fits so well in bed has helped me stay sane and happy---and no, our sex life wasn't killed by having kids.)
Questions I think are useful to ask yourself and him (though honestly, two months in to my relationships, I could never have answered "making a life together" questions without knowing someone better):
Do you observe him being able to take care of himself and his life: his (clean?) home, bills, health, cooking, etc? That's a good (not perfect) indicator of whether he will keep doing these things.
Does he see himself getting a job? Being a full-time parent? How does he see your finances working together?
Does he love you? Do you love him? Life isn't just practicalities. Love can pull you through the rough days of parenting.
How would he want to raise children? Free-range? Very controlled and strict? What would he see as his role vs. yours?
How does he seem to view women and their traditional roles vs. men and theirs?
posted by mkuhnell at 8:02 AM on August 17, 2020 [7 favorites]
Like "Closure, " the concept of "a safe bet" isn't one that's really borne out by anyone's experience. You find the best fit you're comfortable with by testing the waters and seeing how those waters make you *feel*.
I'm pretty new to therapy--I came to it a year and a half ago after a decade-long relationship that seemed stable and loving very suddenly turned out to be the opposite. It really shook my sense of... well, it shook my sense of everything, but in particular it really challenged my personal identity (e.g. how is it possible that this could happen if I always felt like I know what I like and dislike?) and my ability to make sound judgments (e.g. I just spent a quarter of my life with someone who had an enormous secret double life I had no hint of suspicion about, how on earth can I trust my ability to act on red flags if I can't even reliably see them?). In the shorthand of my therapy experience, I'm better understanding now that the emotional content of my relationships are where I should be looking for those red flags. All those times I felt a little hotheaded because my ex-husband was paying more attention to his phone than to me? Yeah, that was a red flag--my emotional reaction to his unwillingness to prioritize me was telling me that all along, I just didn't have the right frame to understand it. I'd always just thought, OK, I'm a bit of a hothead, and little sleights make me more upset than they should. Nope, I should have *listened* to that anger. That anger was a sign that I was living with a red flag in the room and my big logical brainy brain just couldn't pick it up.
When you recount your experiences with this guy, does it make you feel better or worse? Do you feel any of those red flag tingles? This sort of stuff is so personal it's impossible to give direct advice. Process advice is as close as I can get without feeling icky (and I'd urge you caution in reading urgent, confident, at advice from *anyone* that pushes one course of action over the other--when coming from a stranger on the internet and not one of your close personal friends, who even knows what kind of personal baggage that kind of advice is being filtered through!).
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 11:29 AM on August 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty new to therapy--I came to it a year and a half ago after a decade-long relationship that seemed stable and loving very suddenly turned out to be the opposite. It really shook my sense of... well, it shook my sense of everything, but in particular it really challenged my personal identity (e.g. how is it possible that this could happen if I always felt like I know what I like and dislike?) and my ability to make sound judgments (e.g. I just spent a quarter of my life with someone who had an enormous secret double life I had no hint of suspicion about, how on earth can I trust my ability to act on red flags if I can't even reliably see them?). In the shorthand of my therapy experience, I'm better understanding now that the emotional content of my relationships are where I should be looking for those red flags. All those times I felt a little hotheaded because my ex-husband was paying more attention to his phone than to me? Yeah, that was a red flag--my emotional reaction to his unwillingness to prioritize me was telling me that all along, I just didn't have the right frame to understand it. I'd always just thought, OK, I'm a bit of a hothead, and little sleights make me more upset than they should. Nope, I should have *listened* to that anger. That anger was a sign that I was living with a red flag in the room and my big logical brainy brain just couldn't pick it up.
When you recount your experiences with this guy, does it make you feel better or worse? Do you feel any of those red flag tingles? This sort of stuff is so personal it's impossible to give direct advice. Process advice is as close as I can get without feeling icky (and I'd urge you caution in reading urgent, confident, at advice from *anyone* that pushes one course of action over the other--when coming from a stranger on the internet and not one of your close personal friends, who even knows what kind of personal baggage that kind of advice is being filtered through!).
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 11:29 AM on August 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
Your update makes it sound like you are computer considering adding a PCI card. I’m sure marriage and parenting isn’t a motherboard and daughter board relation.
Why is he so passive? The stance of his bothers me the most. It’s the biggest problem here.
posted by Bodrik at 8:46 PM on August 17, 2020
Why is he so passive? The stance of his bothers me the most. It’s the biggest problem here.
posted by Bodrik at 8:46 PM on August 17, 2020
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posted by defreckled at 7:47 AM on August 16, 2020 [3 favorites]