How to rebuild trust during a pandemic
August 11, 2020 3:19 AM Subscribe
My senior mother is taking risks to see her boyfriend during the pandemic and lied to me about it when I expressed my concerns. I'm upset and afraid that this has permanently damaged our relationship.
Since the start of the pandemic, my mother, who is in her mid 70s, has insisted on flying back and forth between her home and her boyfriend's home in another state in which the coronavirus has spiraled out of control. When the lockdown first started, she was at his house and my brother and I both told her we thought she should stay put with him until things improved. She did not take our advice and returned home. I was very stressed and anxious for the next couple of weeks, hoping she did not start showing signs of being sick. She was fine, and I breathed a huge sigh of relief. But then a month later, she flew back again to be with him for a week. I let her know my concerns and that I did not think it was safe for anyone to fly, let alone a woman whose age and pre-existing health conditions put her at a higher risk. My brother, however, reversed course, and said, "It's just for a week," which to him, minimized any potential risk. He even drove her to and from the airport as her usual airport shuttle had ceased operating for the time being. This also puts him at risk, as he is on an immunosuppressant drug and needs to minimize his potential exposure to the virus. I was upset that he would enable her behavior and disregard her and his own risk as they are the only family I have.
Since March, my mom has flown back and forth to see her boyfriend four times (for reasons, he can't visit her). Each time, my stress and anxiety has gone through the roof (this question is not about how to manage my anxiety about the situation, assume I have that handled). She says they stay home most of the time while she is there, only going to the grocery store. Before each trip, I have begged her not to go, citing concerns for her health, and the last time she said she wouldn't. However, when I called her at home a couple of weeks later, she didn't answer, and with a sinking feeling, I texted my brother to ask if she had gone to see her boyfriend. She had. I was extremely upset that she had lied to me about not going; I felt like she had just been trying to shut me up.
I don't live in the same state as my family; I live in New York City and have been here throughout the pandemic. Sheltering in place here during the spring was lifechanging and traumatic; for weeks we heard ambulance sirens nonstop--a constant reminder of the potential danger outside. I accept that maybe my feelings are influenced by some level of PTSD from when the city was the epicenter. I also feel like maintaining a close relationship with your family when you live far away requires a degree of trust; and that was shattered when my mom lied to me about visiting her boyfriend this last time. I feel very much like I am "out of sight, out of mind" and it's especially hard to deal with because I did try to move back home to be closer and it was wonderful, but I was unable to find work and had to return to NY last year.
My mom texted me when she got back from her boyfriend's this last time but I am angry and hurt and it's been difficult to form a response to her, other than to tell her that I'm extremely upset about her lying to me. She said she is "heartbroken" about the situation. I don't know how to respond. My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get. It would hurt terribly to do this, but I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home. At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
I don't know what to do at this point. I can't change how I feel about her behavior, and she is not willing to change it. I love her and wish things were different but obviously, they're not. I don't want this to be the end of our relationship, even temporarily, but I feel like the trust in our relationship has been severely damaged. What do I do?
Since the start of the pandemic, my mother, who is in her mid 70s, has insisted on flying back and forth between her home and her boyfriend's home in another state in which the coronavirus has spiraled out of control. When the lockdown first started, she was at his house and my brother and I both told her we thought she should stay put with him until things improved. She did not take our advice and returned home. I was very stressed and anxious for the next couple of weeks, hoping she did not start showing signs of being sick. She was fine, and I breathed a huge sigh of relief. But then a month later, she flew back again to be with him for a week. I let her know my concerns and that I did not think it was safe for anyone to fly, let alone a woman whose age and pre-existing health conditions put her at a higher risk. My brother, however, reversed course, and said, "It's just for a week," which to him, minimized any potential risk. He even drove her to and from the airport as her usual airport shuttle had ceased operating for the time being. This also puts him at risk, as he is on an immunosuppressant drug and needs to minimize his potential exposure to the virus. I was upset that he would enable her behavior and disregard her and his own risk as they are the only family I have.
Since March, my mom has flown back and forth to see her boyfriend four times (for reasons, he can't visit her). Each time, my stress and anxiety has gone through the roof (this question is not about how to manage my anxiety about the situation, assume I have that handled). She says they stay home most of the time while she is there, only going to the grocery store. Before each trip, I have begged her not to go, citing concerns for her health, and the last time she said she wouldn't. However, when I called her at home a couple of weeks later, she didn't answer, and with a sinking feeling, I texted my brother to ask if she had gone to see her boyfriend. She had. I was extremely upset that she had lied to me about not going; I felt like she had just been trying to shut me up.
I don't live in the same state as my family; I live in New York City and have been here throughout the pandemic. Sheltering in place here during the spring was lifechanging and traumatic; for weeks we heard ambulance sirens nonstop--a constant reminder of the potential danger outside. I accept that maybe my feelings are influenced by some level of PTSD from when the city was the epicenter. I also feel like maintaining a close relationship with your family when you live far away requires a degree of trust; and that was shattered when my mom lied to me about visiting her boyfriend this last time. I feel very much like I am "out of sight, out of mind" and it's especially hard to deal with because I did try to move back home to be closer and it was wonderful, but I was unable to find work and had to return to NY last year.
My mom texted me when she got back from her boyfriend's this last time but I am angry and hurt and it's been difficult to form a response to her, other than to tell her that I'm extremely upset about her lying to me. She said she is "heartbroken" about the situation. I don't know how to respond. My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get. It would hurt terribly to do this, but I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home. At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
I don't know what to do at this point. I can't change how I feel about her behavior, and she is not willing to change it. I love her and wish things were different but obviously, they're not. I don't want this to be the end of our relationship, even temporarily, but I feel like the trust in our relationship has been severely damaged. What do I do?
note: all questions are rhetorical, you do not have to answer them here.
If you don't want it to be the end, its not the end.
You have big feelings about this. That's normal, you love them.
But also- humans get to be independent, get to make their own choices about priorities, get to decide what social interactions are important to them, and determine what risks are acceptable to them. Right now, being able to see her boyfriend is very important to her. This boyfriend is for all behavioral purposes family.
I hear that it feels like a betrayal to you. My bet is that she doesn't want to upset you, or have you worry. She loves you. When you are together it seems to go well. But- she also has a very rewarding relationship with this other person, and wants to maintain that. It is a relationship she fundamentally cannot have with you, her child.
So how do you move forward with knowing that?
First off, it is okay to have grief, fear and concern for the well being of a parent. Its hard for parents get older and children shift into more caretaking roles. Lots of people need support. There is a lot of big emotions at play, but at this time you are not actually a caretaker of her, and she still has independence, but emotionally you want her to listen to you and you want to be able to keep her safe. So things have started shifting for you- but maybe not for her.
Also, these are just unsettling, difficult times. They just are. Do you think that's amplfing your fear? Its just as true that a million other things could happen to either your brother or your mother without the pandemic. She's in her 70's already.
Either way, I'd suggest doing some exploring of your feelings. People maintain familial relationships with family members who do things they don't agree with all the time- but that doesn't mean you have to. But- if this is really about fear of loss, then why would you consider cutting her out of your life now?
I suggest talking to a therapist, or really reflecting on what you want. Because I think you really want your mom available to you, safe and healthy. And that's...just not something that will be here forever, so please don't cut yourself short and deny yourself time you actually have. Honestly, maybe the most healthy way forward is to just not talk about the visits at all. They give you anxiety, and stress you out, so not knowing might be a way forward. Or, you may value honesty over the omission - that its more important for her to tell you she's going to do what she wants instead of lying to you about it.
I also suggest that she was lying to keep you out of distress, not lying to harm you. That doesn't mean it feels any different, but it may help to reframe it for yourself a little bit.
In terms of what to say next, it would be okay to say something like I don't want to talk about this right now, but I do want to know how you are doing? And just move into other topics that are natural and safe for you both.
Take gentle care of yourself.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:11 AM on August 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
If you don't want it to be the end, its not the end.
You have big feelings about this. That's normal, you love them.
But also- humans get to be independent, get to make their own choices about priorities, get to decide what social interactions are important to them, and determine what risks are acceptable to them. Right now, being able to see her boyfriend is very important to her. This boyfriend is for all behavioral purposes family.
I hear that it feels like a betrayal to you. My bet is that she doesn't want to upset you, or have you worry. She loves you. When you are together it seems to go well. But- she also has a very rewarding relationship with this other person, and wants to maintain that. It is a relationship she fundamentally cannot have with you, her child.
So how do you move forward with knowing that?
First off, it is okay to have grief, fear and concern for the well being of a parent. Its hard for parents get older and children shift into more caretaking roles. Lots of people need support. There is a lot of big emotions at play, but at this time you are not actually a caretaker of her, and she still has independence, but emotionally you want her to listen to you and you want to be able to keep her safe. So things have started shifting for you- but maybe not for her.
Also, these are just unsettling, difficult times. They just are. Do you think that's amplfing your fear? Its just as true that a million other things could happen to either your brother or your mother without the pandemic. She's in her 70's already.
Either way, I'd suggest doing some exploring of your feelings. People maintain familial relationships with family members who do things they don't agree with all the time- but that doesn't mean you have to. But- if this is really about fear of loss, then why would you consider cutting her out of your life now?
I suggest talking to a therapist, or really reflecting on what you want. Because I think you really want your mom available to you, safe and healthy. And that's...just not something that will be here forever, so please don't cut yourself short and deny yourself time you actually have. Honestly, maybe the most healthy way forward is to just not talk about the visits at all. They give you anxiety, and stress you out, so not knowing might be a way forward. Or, you may value honesty over the omission - that its more important for her to tell you she's going to do what she wants instead of lying to you about it.
I also suggest that she was lying to keep you out of distress, not lying to harm you. That doesn't mean it feels any different, but it may help to reframe it for yourself a little bit.
In terms of what to say next, it would be okay to say something like I don't want to talk about this right now, but I do want to know how you are doing? And just move into other topics that are natural and safe for you both.
Take gentle care of yourself.
posted by AlexiaSky at 4:11 AM on August 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
If you lived there and were seeing her regularly and this could impact your health directly, I would understand. But you don’t, she has to get her social needs met somehow, and this is how she has chosen to do it. People make all sorts of decisions for love. If you told my mother that she could live five years longer but she would never get to hug her grandchild again, she would choose to continue hugging him even if that risked her getting the coronavirus. She would rather have a love right now than the maybe of things getting back to normal. You can’t make these decisions for other people.
posted by ficbot at 5:35 AM on August 11, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by ficbot at 5:35 AM on August 11, 2020 [16 favorites]
Your mother, in her seventies has decided that quality of life takes precedence over something that only potentially prolongs her life. I'm not saying she's making the right decision, but the decision she is making is on par with opting out of taking the effective chemo drug with the horrible side effects when it has the highest chance of keeping her alive.
It makes complete emotional sense to be furious with the person who is deceitfully endangering your mother's life. But while you are also now furious with the person who is doing active things that protect your mother against mental health issues and dementia issues and other old age related physical declines.
Essentially you want to control your mother to keep her safe, no matter what cost to her. If she opted to take the not-as-good chemo drug without debilitating permanent side effects would you demand that she take the one that had a higher chance of keeping her alive?
It's love making you feel this way. If you didn't love her you'd be feeling meh, some people, not meltdown anxious, heartbroken betrayed furious. But your love for her is manifesting as rage, not affirmation, not acceptance, not grief, not admiration. You're feeling the natural infantile rage "Mommy don't leave me!" It's not unnatural, it's not something that makes you a bad person for wanting to control her decisions even if she's the one who would have to live with the negative consequences of compliance.
Depending on where you are she is making a terrible decision to throw it all away for a brief love high, like a married man having an affaire with a subordinate co-worker. That's all you can see. She doesn't need to break out and break away when she could stay between four white walls and a hermetically sealed door that would keep her safe and do cross stitch and watch flickering images of people on a screen, zoom calls and voices that depend on the quality of her speakers. She doesn't need to go out and do this. But it's what she wants to do enough that she's prepared to die to do it.
If you mother opted for the not very effective chemo without the debilitating side effects I hope you would not turn on your heel and write her off. You'd still be justified in feeling the heart break and fury, but you'd want to see it through being as supportive as you could bear to be. You might have to withdraw from speaking to her as much for awhile, while you dealt with your own anguish.
But you'd regret never speaking to her again unless there was a long previous history of behaviour on her part that made it safer and wiser and overdue for you to break off contact. If this is the last straw, the cold evidence that all her life she has been selfish, putting her love affaires ahead of family then this is a good time to back away. But otherwise it's a body blow that you have to soak. If you want to love her and see her while you still can, then you have to stifle your feelings and not break up with her.
Scripting can help. Find a neutral subject to talk about with her and talk about that, and then when the call is finished go scream and pound your pillow and sob. Your feelings are justified.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:38 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
It makes complete emotional sense to be furious with the person who is deceitfully endangering your mother's life. But while you are also now furious with the person who is doing active things that protect your mother against mental health issues and dementia issues and other old age related physical declines.
Essentially you want to control your mother to keep her safe, no matter what cost to her. If she opted to take the not-as-good chemo drug without debilitating permanent side effects would you demand that she take the one that had a higher chance of keeping her alive?
It's love making you feel this way. If you didn't love her you'd be feeling meh, some people, not meltdown anxious, heartbroken betrayed furious. But your love for her is manifesting as rage, not affirmation, not acceptance, not grief, not admiration. You're feeling the natural infantile rage "Mommy don't leave me!" It's not unnatural, it's not something that makes you a bad person for wanting to control her decisions even if she's the one who would have to live with the negative consequences of compliance.
Depending on where you are she is making a terrible decision to throw it all away for a brief love high, like a married man having an affaire with a subordinate co-worker. That's all you can see. She doesn't need to break out and break away when she could stay between four white walls and a hermetically sealed door that would keep her safe and do cross stitch and watch flickering images of people on a screen, zoom calls and voices that depend on the quality of her speakers. She doesn't need to go out and do this. But it's what she wants to do enough that she's prepared to die to do it.
If you mother opted for the not very effective chemo without the debilitating side effects I hope you would not turn on your heel and write her off. You'd still be justified in feeling the heart break and fury, but you'd want to see it through being as supportive as you could bear to be. You might have to withdraw from speaking to her as much for awhile, while you dealt with your own anguish.
But you'd regret never speaking to her again unless there was a long previous history of behaviour on her part that made it safer and wiser and overdue for you to break off contact. If this is the last straw, the cold evidence that all her life she has been selfish, putting her love affaires ahead of family then this is a good time to back away. But otherwise it's a body blow that you have to soak. If you want to love her and see her while you still can, then you have to stifle your feelings and not break up with her.
Scripting can help. Find a neutral subject to talk about with her and talk about that, and then when the call is finished go scream and pound your pillow and sob. Your feelings are justified.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:38 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
(Just a reminder that the OP suggested that their mom STAY at boyfriends house until things calm down. So the OP isn’t upset that the mom is choosing love over safety; they are upset that mom is repeatedly flying back and forth and increasing risk.)
posted by gt2 at 5:49 AM on August 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by gt2 at 5:49 AM on August 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants
I don't see this at all.
Stop begging and badgering and guilting and shaming her.
She is a grown woman and free to do what she wants.
Signed,
a middle-aged cancer patient who appreciates, but is not obligated to heed, advice from her adult children
posted by headnsouth at 5:49 AM on August 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
It's reasonable to be anxious about this, but your anxiety seems out of proportion to the actual risk. Going to the airport and being on a plane increases her risk but flying might not be as dangerous as you imagine. (From the CDC: Most viruses and other germs do not spread easily on flights because of how air circulates and is filtered on airplanes.) And once she gets there, it sounds like she's not having much contact with anyone other than her boyfriend. Remember that most people who get the coronavirus don't die, even if they're in their 70's. She's taking some risk but she's not playing Russian roulette.
She has probably spent a lot more time thinking about her eventual death and what's important to her in life than you have. She's in a better position than you are to decide which risks are worth taking in her own life. It's natural that seeing her boyfriend doesn't feel worth the risk to you, because you gain nothing from it, but you have a huge amount to lose if she gets sick and dies. But she's not living her life just for you.
You say, "I can't change how I feel about her behavior." But maybe you can. You can try to focus on the actual risk instead of imagining the worst case scenario and letting your emotions go wild. You can try to think about this from your mother's point of view. It's not unreasonable for someone her age to want to prioritize current happiness over possible future years of life. Can you imagine yourself into her mind, think about what feelings would lead her to want to see her boyfriend (but not move in with him) and to lie to you about it?
Don't stop talking to her over this. That doesn't make any sense. You can be angry that she lied, but try to understand why she did that instead of letting your feelings of betrayal run out of control. If you don't want her to lie to you again, maybe you need try to change the way you react when she tells the truth.
posted by Redstart at 5:54 AM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
She has probably spent a lot more time thinking about her eventual death and what's important to her in life than you have. She's in a better position than you are to decide which risks are worth taking in her own life. It's natural that seeing her boyfriend doesn't feel worth the risk to you, because you gain nothing from it, but you have a huge amount to lose if she gets sick and dies. But she's not living her life just for you.
You say, "I can't change how I feel about her behavior." But maybe you can. You can try to focus on the actual risk instead of imagining the worst case scenario and letting your emotions go wild. You can try to think about this from your mother's point of view. It's not unreasonable for someone her age to want to prioritize current happiness over possible future years of life. Can you imagine yourself into her mind, think about what feelings would lead her to want to see her boyfriend (but not move in with him) and to lie to you about it?
Don't stop talking to her over this. That doesn't make any sense. You can be angry that she lied, but try to understand why she did that instead of letting your feelings of betrayal run out of control. If you don't want her to lie to you again, maybe you need try to change the way you react when she tells the truth.
posted by Redstart at 5:54 AM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
I was extremely upset that she had lied to me about not going; I felt like she had just been trying to shut me up.
She was.
I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home.
But you don't. I mean, there's a 1,000 word essay up there about how this is clearly not the case. Your mother is making her own decisions, and if you think they're selfish, well... she's 75, she's raised her young, if this is her choice, it is hers to make.
All you can control here is you. If you were local, you would make the choice to isolate from her, but you're not local to her so that's irrelevant. Telephone isolation is not necessary and is simply acting out your feelings.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:08 AM on August 11, 2020 [26 favorites]
She was.
I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home.
But you don't. I mean, there's a 1,000 word essay up there about how this is clearly not the case. Your mother is making her own decisions, and if you think they're selfish, well... she's 75, she's raised her young, if this is her choice, it is hers to make.
All you can control here is you. If you were local, you would make the choice to isolate from her, but you're not local to her so that's irrelevant. Telephone isolation is not necessary and is simply acting out your feelings.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:08 AM on August 11, 2020 [26 favorites]
You might find some comfort or help in material by Al-Anon, which is nominally for the friends and family of alcoholics but generally speaks to not being able to change someone else's behavior. You don't need to buy in to their m.o. 100% (I don't) to find some use in their materials.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:22 AM on August 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:22 AM on August 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think it's really risky to fly right now and exposes your Mom to real risk. Picking her up after her risky visit exposes your brother to additional, non-essential risk. They are adults making their own decisions. You have no control over this. Even when their choices are ill-advised. There are a lot of things we can't control right now; it adds to the misery of PandemicTime. begged her not to go, citing concerns for her health, and the last time she said she wouldn't. It seems likely your Mom agreed to cancel just to stop your impassioned attempts to change her behavior. I don't call that betrayal.
These are very difficult times. You are a loving adult child, you've experienced the Pandemic at its worst, you fear losing your Mom and/or brother. Your Mom may be experiencing denial; I find that pretty common among people who don't wear masks, make unsafe choices, etc. There may me more successful ways to talk to her about her risky choices, but as long as she follows emergency regulations, she gets to make them. can't change how I feel about her behavior You can change your behavior. You can express strong concern, but then show respect for her autonomy. Recognize how much you fear losing her. Don't avoid her; you love her and need her in your life. Learning to accept another person's choices and continue to love them, learning to process difficult periods in relationships are ways to grow.
posted by theora55 at 6:40 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
These are very difficult times. You are a loving adult child, you've experienced the Pandemic at its worst, you fear losing your Mom and/or brother. Your Mom may be experiencing denial; I find that pretty common among people who don't wear masks, make unsafe choices, etc. There may me more successful ways to talk to her about her risky choices, but as long as she follows emergency regulations, she gets to make them. can't change how I feel about her behavior You can change your behavior. You can express strong concern, but then show respect for her autonomy. Recognize how much you fear losing her. Don't avoid her; you love her and need her in your life. Learning to accept another person's choices and continue to love them, learning to process difficult periods in relationships are ways to grow.
posted by theora55 at 6:40 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
So what is it that you're worried about? I'm assuming that she'll get sick and die, not that she's a plague-carrier.
Not speaking to her seems like a "cut off your nose to spite your face" situation if what you want with your mother is more quality time.
I'd take a day or two to calm down and then I would call my mother (who does do some risky things with her health, although not this particular one) and say, "hey mom...I love you. I don't want to lose you and this choice you're making is hard for me to understand because I'd rather you stayed with your boyfriend. But it's made me realize that what I want is you, so how are you?"
Then enjoy the time with her. That's all any of us gets.
If you're worried she's carrying the plague then talk to her about self-isolation at both ends.
Hang in there, Covid is tough.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
Not speaking to her seems like a "cut off your nose to spite your face" situation if what you want with your mother is more quality time.
I'd take a day or two to calm down and then I would call my mother (who does do some risky things with her health, although not this particular one) and say, "hey mom...I love you. I don't want to lose you and this choice you're making is hard for me to understand because I'd rather you stayed with your boyfriend. But it's made me realize that what I want is you, so how are you?"
Then enjoy the time with her. That's all any of us gets.
If you're worried she's carrying the plague then talk to her about self-isolation at both ends.
Hang in there, Covid is tough.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I say this with compassion and sympathy as someone who has PTSD and sometimes has both emotional physical reactions out of proportion to what people in my life are actually doing because of it - this does in fact sound to me at least partly like a trauma reaction.
You are saying the words "she is a grown adult, she can make her own risk assessments, she does not owe me an accounting of where she spends her time" and some part of you believes them, but another part of you clearly does not.
I agree that she is taking foolhardy risks with other people's lives as well as her own, and that it really sucks that she is doing so. (Your brother is also taking foolhardy risks in driving her, but he is also an adult who can make his own risk assessments, and if you're mad at him about that, address that with him.) I would be upset too. But it doesn't sound like you'll change her mind at this point.
If no-contact is what you need to get through this then that's what it is, but if you were my friend I'd recommend you see if less drastic measures could let you care for yourself appropriately without making it harder than it has to be for your future self to rebuild the relationship damage given that it sounds like a relationship you do want to keep and rebuild someday. Can you keep in contact but opt not to talk about the boyfriend or the travel? "I love you but this really upsets me and I can't talk about it with you, let's change the subject" and if she doesn't, you hang up and talk again another day? Would that be better or worse than not talking to her at all? Would shifting your conversations to something more text-based for a while be better so that you can put some space between information and your responses to it?
We can't answer those questions for you, but given that this sounds like a relationship you don't want to burn down permanently, I think it would be worth exploring some ways to build more distance into it without completely closing the communication down.
posted by Stacey at 6:43 AM on August 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
You are saying the words "she is a grown adult, she can make her own risk assessments, she does not owe me an accounting of where she spends her time" and some part of you believes them, but another part of you clearly does not.
I agree that she is taking foolhardy risks with other people's lives as well as her own, and that it really sucks that she is doing so. (Your brother is also taking foolhardy risks in driving her, but he is also an adult who can make his own risk assessments, and if you're mad at him about that, address that with him.) I would be upset too. But it doesn't sound like you'll change her mind at this point.
If no-contact is what you need to get through this then that's what it is, but if you were my friend I'd recommend you see if less drastic measures could let you care for yourself appropriately without making it harder than it has to be for your future self to rebuild the relationship damage given that it sounds like a relationship you do want to keep and rebuild someday. Can you keep in contact but opt not to talk about the boyfriend or the travel? "I love you but this really upsets me and I can't talk about it with you, let's change the subject" and if she doesn't, you hang up and talk again another day? Would that be better or worse than not talking to her at all? Would shifting your conversations to something more text-based for a while be better so that you can put some space between information and your responses to it?
We can't answer those questions for you, but given that this sounds like a relationship you don't want to burn down permanently, I think it would be worth exploring some ways to build more distance into it without completely closing the communication down.
posted by Stacey at 6:43 AM on August 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
You say your mother lied, and everyone seems to be accepting that at face value. Isn't it possible that she just changed her mind a couple of weeks later and didn't announce it because she a) knew it would upset you and b) didn't fancy being harangued again?
posted by kate4914 at 6:45 AM on August 11, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by kate4914 at 6:45 AM on August 11, 2020 [16 favorites]
I wholly sympathize and I think you are right to suggest the fact that you are in NYC and have experienced all this on a much more intense level is influencing your reaction. Have you shared that with her?
My family all live in different areas and have been effected by the pandemic to different degrees. I can tell you that if any of them were repeatedly doing the kinds of things that-- in my view-- are keeping the US from getting on top of this, I would be really angry and, if they kept doing it, frustrated. So I am wondering the main issue here is really trust or is it some level of frustration with how intractable her stance seems to be? Maybe you could discuss it with her on the level of how much the pandemic has affected you and how it feels to see what she is doing?
posted by BibiRose at 6:53 AM on August 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
My family all live in different areas and have been effected by the pandemic to different degrees. I can tell you that if any of them were repeatedly doing the kinds of things that-- in my view-- are keeping the US from getting on top of this, I would be really angry and, if they kept doing it, frustrated. So I am wondering the main issue here is really trust or is it some level of frustration with how intractable her stance seems to be? Maybe you could discuss it with her on the level of how much the pandemic has affected you and how it feels to see what she is doing?
posted by BibiRose at 6:53 AM on August 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
I want to speak more to the potential PTSD bit of this, because I've been in NYC for all of it, too, and it was simply fucking terrifying. Like, a legit real-life horror movie with a silent monster that is killing 1 in 300 of your friends and neighbors. And then, in July, I had to travel somewhere that is, at this point, much more of a hot spot than NYC, and I almost couldn't do it. I almost backed out a few times, because it was unfathomable to do the things I would have to do to get there.
But when I got there? Everything feels profoundly different. It doesn't feel like here, it feels much safer, and the threat is just so abstract. Which makes a ton of sense, because even though "things are bad" there, they're not "25,000 people dying in your actual city" bad. (Like, Texas has ~10,000 deaths IN THE ENTIRE STATE. Do you know how big Texas is???) Plus, everyone has cars and houses and yards, so they just don't *see* people every day as much as we do, which means that they're less at risk of getting it, but also I think that the losses tend to feel less personal/visceral for them.
And experiencing this entirely different world for myself caused me to have a lot more sympathy/empathy for folks like your mom, because I know the threat just feels profoundly different to them, and they really can't imagine what it was like for us. And then, this sets up a dynamic where it could feel like your mom's actions are, in a sense, *actively ignoring* your trauma, and like she's not respecting the terrifying, dangerous situation you were in (as well as the lingering collective trauma/tension that's still everywhere here). But the thing is that she'll just never be able to relate to what it was like (which is super-weird and angering to me, to realize sometimes). Her actions really aren't about you (and she's truly not reacting to the same situation you were in), though it might feel that way.
posted by unknowncommand at 7:04 AM on August 11, 2020 [35 favorites]
But when I got there? Everything feels profoundly different. It doesn't feel like here, it feels much safer, and the threat is just so abstract. Which makes a ton of sense, because even though "things are bad" there, they're not "25,000 people dying in your actual city" bad. (Like, Texas has ~10,000 deaths IN THE ENTIRE STATE. Do you know how big Texas is???) Plus, everyone has cars and houses and yards, so they just don't *see* people every day as much as we do, which means that they're less at risk of getting it, but also I think that the losses tend to feel less personal/visceral for them.
And experiencing this entirely different world for myself caused me to have a lot more sympathy/empathy for folks like your mom, because I know the threat just feels profoundly different to them, and they really can't imagine what it was like for us. And then, this sets up a dynamic where it could feel like your mom's actions are, in a sense, *actively ignoring* your trauma, and like she's not respecting the terrifying, dangerous situation you were in (as well as the lingering collective trauma/tension that's still everywhere here). But the thing is that she'll just never be able to relate to what it was like (which is super-weird and angering to me, to realize sometimes). Her actions really aren't about you (and she's truly not reacting to the same situation you were in), though it might feel that way.
posted by unknowncommand at 7:04 AM on August 11, 2020 [35 favorites]
My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get.
yikes. do not do this. there is nothing positive to gain from this. This action will grant you no peace.
At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
Don't go creating a no win situation for both you and your mother.
What would might grant you peace is to actually mean this part accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home.
It is a true statement and it seems you intellectually know that. It is understandable your reaction is influenced by your experiences in New York City but the situation is not the same everywhere. Not remotely the same. And those of us who have not had your experience cannot begin to understand how you felt. Your mother does not feel the same threat level as you and she has calculated a way to give herself something needs, contact with her boyfriend,and at the same time manage the risk as much as she can to do it.
She is a grown woman with much life experience who raised a couple of caring children. She has heard your piece about the situation and you have heard hers. Trust in her to make the best decision for herself and she will trust in you to tell you the truth about what she is doing in her life.
posted by domino at 7:12 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
yikes. do not do this. there is nothing positive to gain from this. This action will grant you no peace.
At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
Don't go creating a no win situation for both you and your mother.
What would might grant you peace is to actually mean this part accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home.
It is a true statement and it seems you intellectually know that. It is understandable your reaction is influenced by your experiences in New York City but the situation is not the same everywhere. Not remotely the same. And those of us who have not had your experience cannot begin to understand how you felt. Your mother does not feel the same threat level as you and she has calculated a way to give herself something needs, contact with her boyfriend,and at the same time manage the risk as much as she can to do it.
She is a grown woman with much life experience who raised a couple of caring children. She has heard your piece about the situation and you have heard hers. Trust in her to make the best decision for herself and she will trust in you to tell you the truth about what she is doing in her life.
posted by domino at 7:12 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home. At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
This paragraph jumps out at me. You know you can't control her, and if you could it wouldn't make you feel better. I'm afraid that leaves you with the uncomfortable path of accepting what you can't control.
With my parents I've experience some similar role-reversal. They aren't flying, thank goodness, but they're taking risks that I'm not happy with. And they're at an age when quality of life comes into play. I'm middle-aged and as hard as it is not to see friends, I can do it because I fully expect to have more time with them in the future. Both of my parents are running out of time, and I know this impacts their POV.
So I have these role-reversed conversations where I feel like a parent talking to a teenager. "Here's what the CDC says, here are my concerns about what you want to do. I know it's your decision and i respect that, I just hope you'll be careful and make informed decisions." And then they do what they do and I just take a deep breath and hope.
You do still have some ways you could try to influence her that could help reduce her risk. For instance - what airline she's flying - some do better with mask enforcement with others. Making sure she has comfortable, effective masks that she likes. Of course any such influence has to be loving and respectful of her agency.
(And - gently - if your anxiety is causing you to be reactive in ways that lead to people not wanting to tell you things, you might need a few more tools/support).
posted by bunderful at 7:13 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
This paragraph jumps out at me. You know you can't control her, and if you could it wouldn't make you feel better. I'm afraid that leaves you with the uncomfortable path of accepting what you can't control.
With my parents I've experience some similar role-reversal. They aren't flying, thank goodness, but they're taking risks that I'm not happy with. And they're at an age when quality of life comes into play. I'm middle-aged and as hard as it is not to see friends, I can do it because I fully expect to have more time with them in the future. Both of my parents are running out of time, and I know this impacts their POV.
So I have these role-reversed conversations where I feel like a parent talking to a teenager. "Here's what the CDC says, here are my concerns about what you want to do. I know it's your decision and i respect that, I just hope you'll be careful and make informed decisions." And then they do what they do and I just take a deep breath and hope.
You do still have some ways you could try to influence her that could help reduce her risk. For instance - what airline she's flying - some do better with mask enforcement with others. Making sure she has comfortable, effective masks that she likes. Of course any such influence has to be loving and respectful of her agency.
(And - gently - if your anxiety is causing you to be reactive in ways that lead to people not wanting to tell you things, you might need a few more tools/support).
posted by bunderful at 7:13 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
To me, there are two separate issues here: the risk to herself and the risk to public health. No one has any right to dictate to her what risk she takes on for herself. However, the risk that she imposes on others by engaging non-essential interstate travel is irresponsible and heartless. She can accept any level of risk for herself that she wants, but knowingly forcing that risk level on essential workers shows thoughtlessness.
So, how to deal with this as an outside observer? If you've had this discussion and she's not listening, there's little you can do. You don't control her. It's probably best for the relationship for you to remove yourself from the relationship for a while.
posted by Betelgeuse at 7:38 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
So, how to deal with this as an outside observer? If you've had this discussion and she's not listening, there's little you can do. You don't control her. It's probably best for the relationship for you to remove yourself from the relationship for a while.
posted by Betelgeuse at 7:38 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
For everyone who is saying "She's an adult woman who gets to choose her own risks" -- what about the risks to EVERYONE ELSE if she's an asymptomatic carrier at some point?
posted by Bebo at 7:47 AM on August 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by Bebo at 7:47 AM on August 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
I am angry and hurt and it's been difficult to form a response to her, other than to tell her that I'm extremely upset about her lying to me.
Can you flip that? Not being extremely upset helps a lot, in my experience. It helps to be concerned about the thing that is endangering your mother and brother but tolerant and amused about the lying. People lie, mostly out of goodness and desire to protect the ones they love.
She said she is "heartbroken" about the situation. I don't know how to respond.
Respond with empathy to your heartbroken mother. She didn't lie to betray you, she lied because she knew you were afraid and she wanted to spare you suffering.
My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get.
That is to say, respond to your mother's pain and distress by abandoning her for an indefinite period? In her grief over this loss, will she not be more likely to seek solace with her boyfriend?
It would hurt terribly to do this, but I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home.
Co-rrect. You can't insist. So stop trying to insist. Start gently suggesting and keep it up. Make it safe for her to tell the truth. Then broken record. "Mom, getting in a car with Justin puts his life in danger and your life in danger." "Flying on a plane puts your life in danger and the lives of flight attendants and other passengers in danger." "Mom, what if he drives you to the airport and you end up getting on a sick plane and you get COVID and die? Please consider what this does to my brother. Please consider how he will feel for the rest of his life." "Mom, did you wear your mask in the Uber? How about the airport? How about the plane? Wear your mask if you're going to do this dangerous and not-smart thing, mom. Promise me you'll wear your mask." Little by little, the water wears away the stone. Blasting the stone with galeforce wind, by contrast, has made no change. So stop.
At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too.
She'd be alive, your brother would be alive, and other people would be in less danger. The cold comfort looks like triumph from over here.
I do not want her to lie to me again...
then you have to make it safe for her to tell the truth
...and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
That's a good insight--what good is knowing, anyway? You haven't been able to change the behavior by knowing about it and railing at her about it.
I don't know what to do at this point.
Stop using her infractions and her deceptions as an excuse to fly into a towering rage.
I can't change how I feel about her behavior,
Sure you can.
and she is not willing to change it.
Not yet! But little by little, the water wears away the stone.
I love her and wish things were different but obviously, they're not.
Yet.
I don't want this to be the end of our relationship, even temporarily, but I feel like the trust in our relationship has been severely damaged.
No. There is still trust. Weirdly, even though people lie to each other with every other breath, there remains trust between persons.
What do I do?
Speak to this person whom you love and are desperate to protect in the way most likely to keep her and your brother well and safe. Speak gently and with humor and honesty.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:56 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Can you flip that? Not being extremely upset helps a lot, in my experience. It helps to be concerned about the thing that is endangering your mother and brother but tolerant and amused about the lying. People lie, mostly out of goodness and desire to protect the ones they love.
She said she is "heartbroken" about the situation. I don't know how to respond.
Respond with empathy to your heartbroken mother. She didn't lie to betray you, she lied because she knew you were afraid and she wanted to spare you suffering.
My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get.
That is to say, respond to your mother's pain and distress by abandoning her for an indefinite period? In her grief over this loss, will she not be more likely to seek solace with her boyfriend?
It would hurt terribly to do this, but I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants, and I can't insist that she stays home.
Co-rrect. You can't insist. So stop trying to insist. Start gently suggesting and keep it up. Make it safe for her to tell the truth. Then broken record. "Mom, getting in a car with Justin puts his life in danger and your life in danger." "Flying on a plane puts your life in danger and the lives of flight attendants and other passengers in danger." "Mom, what if he drives you to the airport and you end up getting on a sick plane and you get COVID and die? Please consider what this does to my brother. Please consider how he will feel for the rest of his life." "Mom, did you wear your mask in the Uber? How about the airport? How about the plane? Wear your mask if you're going to do this dangerous and not-smart thing, mom. Promise me you'll wear your mask." Little by little, the water wears away the stone. Blasting the stone with galeforce wind, by contrast, has made no change. So stop.
At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too.
She'd be alive, your brother would be alive, and other people would be in less danger. The cold comfort looks like triumph from over here.
I do not want her to lie to me again...
then you have to make it safe for her to tell the truth
...and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
That's a good insight--what good is knowing, anyway? You haven't been able to change the behavior by knowing about it and railing at her about it.
I don't know what to do at this point.
Stop using her infractions and her deceptions as an excuse to fly into a towering rage.
I can't change how I feel about her behavior,
Sure you can.
and she is not willing to change it.
Not yet! But little by little, the water wears away the stone.
I love her and wish things were different but obviously, they're not.
Yet.
I don't want this to be the end of our relationship, even temporarily, but I feel like the trust in our relationship has been severely damaged.
No. There is still trust. Weirdly, even though people lie to each other with every other breath, there remains trust between persons.
What do I do?
Speak to this person whom you love and are desperate to protect in the way most likely to keep her and your brother well and safe. Speak gently and with humor and honesty.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:56 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
what about the risks to EVERYONE ELSE if she's an asymptomatic carrier at some point?
The point isn't whether mom has made the right decision by some objective metric that OP (or anyone here) decides. The point is that OP cannot control what mom does, and there is no level of "punishing" mom that is going to improve OP's relationship with her mom.
OP, I get you're scared, but cutting off your elderly mom or finding other ways of punishing her for not shutting down her life on your orders are not going to bring you peace or "forgiveness" or anything else positive. Everyone's doing what they can. She's not licking the floor of a COVID ward or hanging out in bars. She put her mask on, she got on a plane, she went to her boyfriend's place. And she's fine.
Consider whether part of your anger is that your mom prioritizes her romantic relationship over your comfort. It's hard when parents prioritize their romantic life, I know, but adult children need to just deal with it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:58 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
The point isn't whether mom has made the right decision by some objective metric that OP (or anyone here) decides. The point is that OP cannot control what mom does, and there is no level of "punishing" mom that is going to improve OP's relationship with her mom.
OP, I get you're scared, but cutting off your elderly mom or finding other ways of punishing her for not shutting down her life on your orders are not going to bring you peace or "forgiveness" or anything else positive. Everyone's doing what they can. She's not licking the floor of a COVID ward or hanging out in bars. She put her mask on, she got on a plane, she went to her boyfriend's place. And she's fine.
Consider whether part of your anger is that your mom prioritizes her romantic relationship over your comfort. It's hard when parents prioritize their romantic life, I know, but adult children need to just deal with it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:58 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
So I've been struggling with similar issues and elderly parents. And realizing that one of the things I'm actually most angry about with the pandemic is that it's robbing me of time spent with my parents in what may, realistically, be their last "good" years. I haven't been able to visit. I worry, a lot, about the things they do that seem riskier than what I have been choosing to do and I can't be there to help or change their minds significantly. But it comes back to the fact that they, too, feel that these are their last good years and they don't want to be completely cut off from nearby family and friends. That's really hard to argue otherwise. I'm trying to be more peaceful with that.
In the meantime, though, I'd urge you to rethink cutting off contact with your mother because this pandemic will likely last longer than any of us want. Do you really want to lose all of that time with an elderly parent?
posted by TwoStride at 8:11 AM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
In the meantime, though, I'd urge you to rethink cutting off contact with your mother because this pandemic will likely last longer than any of us want. Do you really want to lose all of that time with an elderly parent?
posted by TwoStride at 8:11 AM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
All of us with elderly parents are in uncharted waters during these times. There are barely scripts and supports for making this transition from the protected to the protector, during NORMAL times. I think there is a lot to think about in MiraK's comment about the emotional lenses you're applying to interactions here and I hope you do take it on board at least as a thought exercise.
Also --not to discount the effect PTSD and your recent experiences may have had on your responses to these interactions, which also comes through in your post pretty clearly and I hope you are getting support in coping with those effects!-- but it sounds like your move back to NYC was not exactly voluntary and you see it as having made your mother somehow be unable to care about you? That sounds like a very painful chain of thought, but also like a false one. I wonder if there is an element of blaming yourself for the situation that comes from not having been able to bend your own circumstances to your will.
Consider that even if you lived a block away from your mother, she would still be doing precisely what she's doing. This is objectively likely because your brother ALSO wishes she wouldn't travel, DOES live there, and STILL she flies to see her boyfriend. Does she not care about your brother either? Well if so, it has nothing whatsoever to do with residential distance, and therefore you didn't "cause" it for yourself by moving back to NYC.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also --not to discount the effect PTSD and your recent experiences may have had on your responses to these interactions, which also comes through in your post pretty clearly and I hope you are getting support in coping with those effects!-- but it sounds like your move back to NYC was not exactly voluntary and you see it as having made your mother somehow be unable to care about you? That sounds like a very painful chain of thought, but also like a false one. I wonder if there is an element of blaming yourself for the situation that comes from not having been able to bend your own circumstances to your will.
Consider that even if you lived a block away from your mother, she would still be doing precisely what she's doing. This is objectively likely because your brother ALSO wishes she wouldn't travel, DOES live there, and STILL she flies to see her boyfriend. Does she not care about your brother either? Well if so, it has nothing whatsoever to do with residential distance, and therefore you didn't "cause" it for yourself by moving back to NYC.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
OP, I’d feel exactly like you do in this situation. I think it’s extremely weird that you’re getting a pile on of criticism when a few months ago comments were along the lines of “it is not safe or morally acceptable under any circumstances to travel in the US right now.”
I don’t have any concrete advice, but I want to validate your anxiety, your feelings of betrayal, and your mixed emotions over all of this. I also think it is 100% legit and a good thing to try to dissuade family members from doing things that risk the health of themselves and other people you love, and I think it is 100% a smart and reasonable idea to limit contact for now for your own mental health if that will help you. Please MeMail me if you need someone to talk to who understands where you’re coming from.
posted by bananacabana at 8:59 AM on August 11, 2020 [26 favorites]
I don’t have any concrete advice, but I want to validate your anxiety, your feelings of betrayal, and your mixed emotions over all of this. I also think it is 100% legit and a good thing to try to dissuade family members from doing things that risk the health of themselves and other people you love, and I think it is 100% a smart and reasonable idea to limit contact for now for your own mental health if that will help you. Please MeMail me if you need someone to talk to who understands where you’re coming from.
posted by bananacabana at 8:59 AM on August 11, 2020 [26 favorites]
Essentially you want to control your mother to keep her safe, no matter what cost to her.
writing the part where their mother is endangering their immuno-compromised brother out of the story is a good way to make the OP sound like a petulant scared child but is not a response to the particular circumstances of the question.
unfortunately, OP, your brother is knowingly consenting to endanger his life in order to stay in the good graces of your mother. Your mother does not sound like someone who would be susceptible to being guilted on this basis, or I would recommend that you try. if it's any consolation, a man who knows he's at risk but is willing to pick someone up from the airport right now is almost certainly taking other daily risks you don't know about and won't be told about.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:08 AM on August 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
Mod note: A few deleted. Making assumptions and accusations about OP is not ok here, please offer insight, advice, and observations with care and empathy during this especially difficult time.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:16 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:16 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Your mother is being irresponsible, no matter how you frame it. Irresponsible in that she’s endangering herself, her boyfriend, your brother, and whoever else she happens to encounter on her gallivanting. If she thinks it’s “worth it,” that’s great, but I have a feeling if she caused someone else’s terrible suffering she would somehow not be able to own up to it; cognitive dissonance goes hand in hand with this kind of risk-taking.
So, it’s possible that some level of grief you’re feeling now is mourning the vision of your mother (and brother) as responsible, kind, caring people capable of making sacrifices for the wellbeing of others. I would not be surprised if that’s what’s caused you to flip on her, along with a dose of the PTSD— you should be able to convince her! She’s fundamentally a good person! But it turns out people are less good at making personal sacrifices than we all imagined.
It’s not about the inhuman brutality of keeping your aging mother all alone and isolated. Like you said, she could have stayed with boyfriend but chose not to. She just wants to live her life as it is— like we all do— but she’s decided that impulse is more important than personal or public health. Sad, and worth mourning, and unfortunately common.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:29 AM on August 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
So, it’s possible that some level of grief you’re feeling now is mourning the vision of your mother (and brother) as responsible, kind, caring people capable of making sacrifices for the wellbeing of others. I would not be surprised if that’s what’s caused you to flip on her, along with a dose of the PTSD— you should be able to convince her! She’s fundamentally a good person! But it turns out people are less good at making personal sacrifices than we all imagined.
It’s not about the inhuman brutality of keeping your aging mother all alone and isolated. Like you said, she could have stayed with boyfriend but chose not to. She just wants to live her life as it is— like we all do— but she’s decided that impulse is more important than personal or public health. Sad, and worth mourning, and unfortunately common.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:29 AM on August 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
I think it’s extremely weird that you’re getting a pile on of criticism when a few months ago comments were along the lines of “it is not safe or morally acceptable under any circumstances to travel in the US right now.”
Seriously, it's not like things are better now. But even though your opinion here is totally legitimate, I think you should do your best to forgive her and mend the relationship, especially if there's some amount of that risk she might not be around much longer. You've made your concern clear, and that's totally fair, but I think you'll have to let it go.
posted by pinochiette at 10:39 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Seriously, it's not like things are better now. But even though your opinion here is totally legitimate, I think you should do your best to forgive her and mend the relationship, especially if there's some amount of that risk she might not be around much longer. You've made your concern clear, and that's totally fair, but I think you'll have to let it go.
posted by pinochiette at 10:39 AM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Nobody's saying the mother isn't making terrible choices; she absolutely is. Nobody has changed stance on what is moral behavior in the current disaster. But the question was "Should I cut ties to feel better?" And the answer is no. That will not alleviate the worry and it will cause needless pain to OP and everyone else involved. The brother is not being a bad COVID citizen, he's reducing harm in his unique situation: his mother is going to go to the airport No Matter What. Should she take a bus? What can he do to increase her chances?
I have a friend in Utah whose father (mid-eighties) has driven from the Florida Panhandle to Utah, back to Florida, and back again to Utah, all since April. My friend's mother, for whom I'm grocery shopping (mid-eighties) asks every single time whether it's safe now for her to go shopping herself. Last week she informed us that a friend of hers has been sneaking out. My own mother (early eighties) finally admitted, after many conversations where I tried to Columbo it out of her, that she'd been driving around in a car with my brother. That's where I got the "please think what it would do to my brother if you got sick" script.
You cannot make them stop. They went through diphtheria and the measles and your infancy and they cannot be told--not by you, not in one telling--what to do. Accept that all that you can do is chip away at the monument that is their resolve.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:40 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I have a friend in Utah whose father (mid-eighties) has driven from the Florida Panhandle to Utah, back to Florida, and back again to Utah, all since April. My friend's mother, for whom I'm grocery shopping (mid-eighties) asks every single time whether it's safe now for her to go shopping herself. Last week she informed us that a friend of hers has been sneaking out. My own mother (early eighties) finally admitted, after many conversations where I tried to Columbo it out of her, that she'd been driving around in a car with my brother. That's where I got the "please think what it would do to my brother if you got sick" script.
You cannot make them stop. They went through diphtheria and the measles and your infancy and they cannot be told--not by you, not in one telling--what to do. Accept that all that you can do is chip away at the monument that is their resolve.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:40 AM on August 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I feel like the trust in our relationship has been severely damaged. What do I do?
Your feeling is correct. The lie was a betrayal, and her repeated choices have made clear that her own non-survival-related whims are more important to her than the safety of others - generically, and to her actual children specifically. That's a fucking blow, to find out a parent's values are not what you'd thought they'd be.
You get to mourn that. You get to mourn the relationship you don't have with a person who turns out not to exist.
There's not going to be a lot of people who do the pandemic perfectly, especially with no federal support, but there's a lot of people who have choices making terrible ones, and you shouldn't trust them because they're showing you who they are. You can have certain kinds of relationships with people who can't be trusted, if you choose or are forced by circumstances, and that's the path before you at this point: do you forge that new relationship or not? You can't ever unknow this about her, so you'll have to grapple with it whatever you do.
It's okay to not know yet and not make a decision right now. You may need to go low- or no-contact for a while to process, and that's okay. You do have to let go of the idea that you can control her behavior - that will only end in madness for you, truly in the sense of damage to your mental health, because it's impossible. It may take some time to get to a place of acceptance with that before you can figure out next steps.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:43 AM on August 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
Your feeling is correct. The lie was a betrayal, and her repeated choices have made clear that her own non-survival-related whims are more important to her than the safety of others - generically, and to her actual children specifically. That's a fucking blow, to find out a parent's values are not what you'd thought they'd be.
You get to mourn that. You get to mourn the relationship you don't have with a person who turns out not to exist.
There's not going to be a lot of people who do the pandemic perfectly, especially with no federal support, but there's a lot of people who have choices making terrible ones, and you shouldn't trust them because they're showing you who they are. You can have certain kinds of relationships with people who can't be trusted, if you choose or are forced by circumstances, and that's the path before you at this point: do you forge that new relationship or not? You can't ever unknow this about her, so you'll have to grapple with it whatever you do.
It's okay to not know yet and not make a decision right now. You may need to go low- or no-contact for a while to process, and that's okay. You do have to let go of the idea that you can control her behavior - that will only end in madness for you, truly in the sense of damage to your mental health, because it's impossible. It may take some time to get to a place of acceptance with that before you can figure out next steps.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:43 AM on August 11, 2020 [9 favorites]
So most people have covered anything I have to say and it's always tough to give advice without coming off as arguing with the OP, but I'll just say this:
I can't change how I feel about her behavior,
You can't change how she behaves. But your reaction is the thing you can control. Your feeling are absolutely valid! But at the same time, yes, you can control them. You can control how you act on them. Your mother's behaviour isn't going to change and the only outcome of shaming her is going to be to estrange her from you more.
Also, I'd ask what about her behaviour is fundamentally upsetting you? That she's breaking a lockdown? Or that she's going to die? Because she's 70 and you need to get used to the idea of her dying regardless of whether she stays in her own home for the rest of her life.
posted by GuyZero at 10:51 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
I can't change how I feel about her behavior,
You can't change how she behaves. But your reaction is the thing you can control. Your feeling are absolutely valid! But at the same time, yes, you can control them. You can control how you act on them. Your mother's behaviour isn't going to change and the only outcome of shaming her is going to be to estrange her from you more.
Also, I'd ask what about her behaviour is fundamentally upsetting you? That she's breaking a lockdown? Or that she's going to die? Because she's 70 and you need to get used to the idea of her dying regardless of whether she stays in her own home for the rest of her life.
posted by GuyZero at 10:51 AM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm an only child with elderly parents who live in a different state, and look, dealing with our parents right now and their behavior around Covid risk is a THING. We've all got stories. I think that we all agree that it would be best for your mom to be more prudent about travel and that you have every right to be concerned and even upset.
The thing that leaps out to me as not okay is the way you've kind of framed up her risk-taking judgement calls as something that she's doing to you. Perhaps best exemplified by your title, "how do I rebuild trust..." which, I'm sorry, made me cringe. Your trust in your relationship with your mother is so broken that it needs rebuilding because you disagree with her risk math and she didn't disclose her personal travel plans to you? Surely you have done things in your life that worried or upset her yet your relationship kept rolling along?
This is admittedly pretty triggery stuff for me, because your perspective sounds a lot like the way my parents foist responsibility for their anxieties onto me. I didn't put together until I was an adult that their lifelong "over-protectiveness" was more than that. "Why won't I just do it this way so that they don't have to worry" but their worry horizon is ever-expanding, and it's always my job to "keep them from worrying," never their job to consider whether these conditions they lay down are even working to make them worry less, let alone whether their expectations are intrusive.
At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
Practically speaking, her simply omitting to tell you her travel plans would be a way to get to your easier scenario of "not knowing what she is up to."
I gently suggest that you've turned a corner into a rather controlling mindset here. She absolutely cannot win in this scenario. Is this really about her safety, if you feel so grim about her following your advice?
posted by desuetude at 10:53 AM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
The thing that leaps out to me as not okay is the way you've kind of framed up her risk-taking judgement calls as something that she's doing to you. Perhaps best exemplified by your title, "how do I rebuild trust..." which, I'm sorry, made me cringe. Your trust in your relationship with your mother is so broken that it needs rebuilding because you disagree with her risk math and she didn't disclose her personal travel plans to you? Surely you have done things in your life that worried or upset her yet your relationship kept rolling along?
This is admittedly pretty triggery stuff for me, because your perspective sounds a lot like the way my parents foist responsibility for their anxieties onto me. I didn't put together until I was an adult that their lifelong "over-protectiveness" was more than that. "Why won't I just do it this way so that they don't have to worry" but their worry horizon is ever-expanding, and it's always my job to "keep them from worrying," never their job to consider whether these conditions they lay down are even working to make them worry less, let alone whether their expectations are intrusive.
At this point if she did stop flying on my account, it would be cold comfort as I would feel like I'd manipulated her into it, and she may feel that way too. I do not want her to lie to me again and not knowing what she is up to may be easier to deal with than knowing.
Practically speaking, her simply omitting to tell you her travel plans would be a way to get to your easier scenario of "not knowing what she is up to."
I gently suggest that you've turned a corner into a rather controlling mindset here. She absolutely cannot win in this scenario. Is this really about her safety, if you feel so grim about her following your advice?
posted by desuetude at 10:53 AM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
Well, all right apparently the answer I thought had a lot of stuff worth reading was in fact deletion-worthy so maybe I just have no idea at all about what's what. So with that in mind, though, this sentence is what jumped out at me from your post:
I also feel like maintaining a close relationship with your family when you live far away requires a degree of trust
What does that mean? This seems like a thing people say about romantic relationships where people have made commitments that require particular behaviors, e.g., fidelity. This does not sound like a thing that has ever applied to any of my family relationships (which have, for the majority of my life, been majority long-distance).
What is it that you need to trust your family to do or not do while you are far from them? From your question context it sounds like it's either/all of:
-Report on all movements accurately and make only agreed-upon ones
-Be a particular kind of person with a particular kind of opinions
-Not forget to love you/forget that you exist
I'm not sure that the first two are at all healthy. The third one seems very natural and common and like a cromulent thing to ask of your family, but it seems like you only interpret 3 as being possible if conditions 1 and 2 are met, and again...I'm not sure those conditions are healthy.
Is there a way you can try to articulate to yourself some way that your mother could show she loves you and remembers you exist, that doesn't require her to follow your rules for behavior? Do you have the kind of relationship where you can say, "Mom, you know how I feel about your travel, and it isn't just because of COVID, it's because it makes me feel [X] for [Y] reasons. When we talk, can you do [Z], just so I know you haven't forgotten all about me while I'm far away?"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
I also feel like maintaining a close relationship with your family when you live far away requires a degree of trust
What does that mean? This seems like a thing people say about romantic relationships where people have made commitments that require particular behaviors, e.g., fidelity. This does not sound like a thing that has ever applied to any of my family relationships (which have, for the majority of my life, been majority long-distance).
What is it that you need to trust your family to do or not do while you are far from them? From your question context it sounds like it's either/all of:
-Report on all movements accurately and make only agreed-upon ones
-Be a particular kind of person with a particular kind of opinions
-Not forget to love you/forget that you exist
I'm not sure that the first two are at all healthy. The third one seems very natural and common and like a cromulent thing to ask of your family, but it seems like you only interpret 3 as being possible if conditions 1 and 2 are met, and again...I'm not sure those conditions are healthy.
Is there a way you can try to articulate to yourself some way that your mother could show she loves you and remembers you exist, that doesn't require her to follow your rules for behavior? Do you have the kind of relationship where you can say, "Mom, you know how I feel about your travel, and it isn't just because of COVID, it's because it makes me feel [X] for [Y] reasons. When we talk, can you do [Z], just so I know you haven't forgotten all about me while I'm far away?"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:40 AM on August 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
I can't help but think of a recently bereaved widow, from literary and some existing cultural traditions. She's supposed to behave a certain way, be solemn, be inside, not laugh. Her family respects her grief and is quieter and respectful around her. They do as she asks. She is controlled by the expectations surrounding her grief, and so can control the others around her.
Here you are the widow. You are bereaved by the pandemic strictures. But no one is respecting your grief! It's rude!
I think you need to turn your drama dial way up. This is probably going to offend you. But as someone who has been on the receiving end of this kind of worry, I'd wish you turn all this emotion into art or expression and away from me. Externalize it (not by dropping it on your mom) but by, I don't know,wearing a black hood and cape to CVS. Read gothic literature on a park bench. Draw skulls and bones on your windows. Just be Extra and convert your internalized anxiety into Drama.
posted by jello at 1:29 PM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Here you are the widow. You are bereaved by the pandemic strictures. But no one is respecting your grief! It's rude!
I think you need to turn your drama dial way up. This is probably going to offend you. But as someone who has been on the receiving end of this kind of worry, I'd wish you turn all this emotion into art or expression and away from me. Externalize it (not by dropping it on your mom) but by, I don't know,wearing a black hood and cape to CVS. Read gothic literature on a park bench. Draw skulls and bones on your windows. Just be Extra and convert your internalized anxiety into Drama.
posted by jello at 1:29 PM on August 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
-You need to apologize to your mother for trying to tell her what to do. She is a grown woman and can make her own decisions without your help, however lovingly intended.
-You need to stop trying to control what your mother does. You have pushed her into a place where she lied to you to protect herself from you. That is at least partially on you.
-You need to get your anxiety under control. It is not at a healthy level for you or those around you.
posted by SLC Mom at 2:50 PM on August 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
-You need to stop trying to control what your mother does. You have pushed her into a place where she lied to you to protect herself from you. That is at least partially on you.
-You need to get your anxiety under control. It is not at a healthy level for you or those around you.
posted by SLC Mom at 2:50 PM on August 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's not great that she lied to you, and I certainly don't agree with her choices. But when you were growing up, did you ever lie to her about something because you were afraid of how she was going to react? Maybe you didn't, but if that's the case you were a much braver/more honest kid than I was.
I hate to be such an AskMe cliche, but have you been able to get any therapy or other support to help process what it was like to live in NYC this Spring? Because I live here too, and that shit was rough. Even my parents, who live just outside the city, didn't really understand what it was like. And honestly, I don't think they could have. I don't think I could have if I didn't go through it - I'm just not sure there's a way to explain it.
This is a difficult time. I think, when we look back on it, we'll be happiest about the moments in which we were kind.
posted by Ragged Richard at 3:09 PM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
I hate to be such an AskMe cliche, but have you been able to get any therapy or other support to help process what it was like to live in NYC this Spring? Because I live here too, and that shit was rough. Even my parents, who live just outside the city, didn't really understand what it was like. And honestly, I don't think they could have. I don't think I could have if I didn't go through it - I'm just not sure there's a way to explain it.
This is a difficult time. I think, when we look back on it, we'll be happiest about the moments in which we were kind.
posted by Ragged Richard at 3:09 PM on August 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm astounded at the responses to this question. Flip this script: if there was a deadly plague (and, uh, there is), and a parent told their child that no, they don't need to go see their boyfriend, they need to stay home and stop risking their life and the lives of everyone around them, and the child lied to their parents and snuck out to see their boyfriend, risking my life and your life and everyone's life, none of you would have answered "this is on you; your kid is making her own decisions as is her right; she is taking the risk into account; let her alone and apologize." Don't even play.
SLC Mom: You need to apologize to your mother for trying to tell her what to do. She is a grown woman and can make her own decisions without your help, however lovingly intended.
Yeah, no. Her mother is endangering my life. And, you know, your life, and everyone else's. If you go out, you risk everyone's life. That's how a plague works. OP's mom is engaging in non-essential travel. It's dangerously selfish.
The people saying you "forced" her to lie to you are wrong. You can't force someone to lie to you. Ignore that. Your mother, who is risking my life and the life of everyone around me, chose to lie to you so she wouldn't have to deal with you reinforcing the fact that she is risking everyone's life.
Your mother absolutely broke trust with you and is acting incredibly irresponsibly. You have every right to be hurt and worried, and it's not on you to fix it. She needs to get her head on straight, apologize to you, and stop her (and I stress this again) non-essential travel.
posted by tzikeh at 3:14 PM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
SLC Mom: You need to apologize to your mother for trying to tell her what to do. She is a grown woman and can make her own decisions without your help, however lovingly intended.
Yeah, no. Her mother is endangering my life. And, you know, your life, and everyone else's. If you go out, you risk everyone's life. That's how a plague works. OP's mom is engaging in non-essential travel. It's dangerously selfish.
The people saying you "forced" her to lie to you are wrong. You can't force someone to lie to you. Ignore that. Your mother, who is risking my life and the life of everyone around me, chose to lie to you so she wouldn't have to deal with you reinforcing the fact that she is risking everyone's life.
Your mother absolutely broke trust with you and is acting incredibly irresponsibly. You have every right to be hurt and worried, and it's not on you to fix it. She needs to get her head on straight, apologize to you, and stop her (and I stress this again) non-essential travel.
posted by tzikeh at 3:14 PM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
if there was a deadly plague (and, uh, there is), and a parent told their child that no, they don't need to go see their boyfriend, they need to stay home and stop risking their life and the lives of everyone around them, and the child lied to their parents and snuck out to see their boyfriend, risking my life and your life and everyone's life, none of you would have answered "this is on you; your kid is making her own decisions as is her right; she is taking the risk into account; let her alone and apologize."
Right, but you see how the situations are not comparable, right? In your hypothetical, the person trying to control the behavior is the parent of a presumably minor child who lives in the house and can actually be controlled. This isn't what we're dealing with. That's why it's so hard. We're all having to take the keys away, metaphorically, years, decades before we were supposed to have to do that, and nobody's prepared or has thought about this. It's a big fat cluster, and it is NOT OUR FAULT. If there were any kind of national leadership, there wouldn't be any nonessential travel. That would be great because then terrified traumatized people thousands of miles away from their parents and thus completely incapable of making their parents toe any kind of line wouldn't be in this impossible and life-wrecking situation because the parents wouldn't be flying and driving around the country spreading the plague because the roads would be closed and the planes would be grounded. But we here we are.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:14 PM on August 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
Right, but you see how the situations are not comparable, right? In your hypothetical, the person trying to control the behavior is the parent of a presumably minor child who lives in the house and can actually be controlled. This isn't what we're dealing with. That's why it's so hard. We're all having to take the keys away, metaphorically, years, decades before we were supposed to have to do that, and nobody's prepared or has thought about this. It's a big fat cluster, and it is NOT OUR FAULT. If there were any kind of national leadership, there wouldn't be any nonessential travel. That would be great because then terrified traumatized people thousands of miles away from their parents and thus completely incapable of making their parents toe any kind of line wouldn't be in this impossible and life-wrecking situation because the parents wouldn't be flying and driving around the country spreading the plague because the roads would be closed and the planes would be grounded. But we here we are.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:14 PM on August 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
and a parent told their child that no, they don't need to go see their boyfriend, they need to stay home and stop risking their life and the lives of everyone around them, and the child lied to their parents and snuck out to see their boyfriend, risking my life and your life and everyone's life, none of you would have answered "this is on you; your kid is making her own decisions as is her right; she is taking the risk into account; let her alone and apologize." Don't even play.
There's a difference between a child and an adult. Parents have legal responsibility and control over their children, and an obligation to account for their behavior. Adult children do not have legal responsibility over their mentally competent adult parents. It's not remotely the same.
Everyone here agrees on what the OP's mother should do, but that is not the question. The question is what OP should do about it, and "make her mother behave" isn't an option, because it's neither legally, physically, nor morally possible.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:15 PM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
There's a difference between a child and an adult. Parents have legal responsibility and control over their children, and an obligation to account for their behavior. Adult children do not have legal responsibility over their mentally competent adult parents. It's not remotely the same.
Everyone here agrees on what the OP's mother should do, but that is not the question. The question is what OP should do about it, and "make her mother behave" isn't an option, because it's neither legally, physically, nor morally possible.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:15 PM on August 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
OP, you have my sympathies in this miserable situation. Text your mom and brother to tell them you're taking a two-week vacation to think things through, and do whatever self-care-type maneuvers you find comforting while you catch your breath a little. When you get back in touch, let your loved ones know that you're sending copies of your medical directive, will, etc., and firmly request that they do the same. Remind them that you're all adults, and ought to have these matters decided anyway; if the worst should happen, you would want to honor their wishes. (Given your mom's age and health issues, your brother's health issues, and now the pandemic, I would hope some of it will have already been sorted).
If there's any push back at all, emphasize that having the paperwork in order will help you cope and help your PTSD. (By the way, while a crisis of this magnitude is unfamiliar to them, I feel the only family you have could be kinder and more supportive of you. You lived close to them, and found it wonderful; you had to relocate for work, and shortly thereafter found yourself in a hellscape.) By the end of your break, you will have decided whether you can bear hearing about the irresponsible travel decisions and unnecessary risks they're indulging in. If you can't, you can set that boundary and tell them so. Given what you've written, I don't think cutting them off, in general or until a vaccine appears, is a viable option for you.
Listen, my mom lives in your neck of the woods, as does her boyfriend. These seniors survived the spring, yet are also making some truly lousy decisions now. My mom's poor choices put my brother at risk, too. Sometimes I catch myself actually hunched over, wringing my hands, after speaking with them, but their decisions are still not about me. Your family's decisions are not about you, either. They are never going to understand what you went through this year, you know? (Even if contagion rates start spiking where they are, the experience won't be the same for them - and that's a gift.) I know that Ask MetaFilter always recommends therapy, so much so that it's become a site cliché, but seriously: you were traumatized, and I believe speaking with the right professional will help you manage your feelings and your relationship with your family. You all love one another; that's a gift, too. Best wishes.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:02 PM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
If there's any push back at all, emphasize that having the paperwork in order will help you cope and help your PTSD. (By the way, while a crisis of this magnitude is unfamiliar to them, I feel the only family you have could be kinder and more supportive of you. You lived close to them, and found it wonderful; you had to relocate for work, and shortly thereafter found yourself in a hellscape.) By the end of your break, you will have decided whether you can bear hearing about the irresponsible travel decisions and unnecessary risks they're indulging in. If you can't, you can set that boundary and tell them so. Given what you've written, I don't think cutting them off, in general or until a vaccine appears, is a viable option for you.
Listen, my mom lives in your neck of the woods, as does her boyfriend. These seniors survived the spring, yet are also making some truly lousy decisions now. My mom's poor choices put my brother at risk, too. Sometimes I catch myself actually hunched over, wringing my hands, after speaking with them, but their decisions are still not about me. Your family's decisions are not about you, either. They are never going to understand what you went through this year, you know? (Even if contagion rates start spiking where they are, the experience won't be the same for them - and that's a gift.) I know that Ask MetaFilter always recommends therapy, so much so that it's become a site cliché, but seriously: you were traumatized, and I believe speaking with the right professional will help you manage your feelings and your relationship with your family. You all love one another; that's a gift, too. Best wishes.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:02 PM on August 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’m really shocked by most of these answers. If, for your own mental health, you need a break from hearing about your mother’s multiple out of state flights in the middle of a pandemic that is rapidly spreading after that same pandemic caused you specific and direct trauma, I support you. You cannot change her behavior but you’re not obligated to engage with it either. If she’s an adult making her own decisions, that’s a consequence of it. I frankly do not have a lot of sympathy for people making those kinds of choices right now as they have directly resulted in our collective inability to get past this.
posted by notheotherone at 12:15 AM on August 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by notheotherone at 12:15 AM on August 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
From your intro, I at first thought that you lived with your mother! Which would make this a considerably more fraught situation.
I'm going to relate a personal story here. I have a relative who I feel isn't being as safe for themselves as I wish they would be, about the age of your mother and have other risk factors as well, and though they are wearing masks and requiring others to wear them, they insist on participating in higher risk activities multiple times a week. Like your relative, they are also exposing anther relative to their level of risk.
But the thing is, these activities are pretty much what they live for in life. Nothing is more important to them. They are older, and there's only so much more time in their life they will be able to do these things, it's very possible that if they were to try to come back to them "in a year" -- well when you are in your 70s (well not for any of us actually, but I think people in their 70's experience the hard cold reality of this in a different way) another year of life isn't guaranteed to you, another year of being in good enough health to travel and be independent isn't guaranteed to you, and that was before the pandemic.
I've been very sad over this, and grieved the situation, but ultimately they are making their own choice. I've avoided arguing, but I've made a few small suggestions here and there that will enhance their safety and that they are likely to actually implement -- I generally bring these up in a very neutral tone, which is much more likely to get them to do these things. But "don't take this major risk" is not something I'd ever bring up with them, because there is zero chance that my doing that will change their behavior -- and I want however many times I might talk with them to be times we can connect, not argue.
My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get.
But you already are removed, physically, from this situation. You seem very upset by her decisions -- but are you so upset that you never want to speak to your mother again? (Maybe you do, particularly being in NYC...) Because if she dies before the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine, that's the choice you are making. Take a break for a bit if you need to, but think very hard before you make this an ultimatum contingent on things that none of us have control over.
You have a lot of feelings and difficult experiences here that it might help you to process with someone, if you don't have a way to have that in your life please check into teletherapy or call one one the covid mental health lines.
I do think it's appropriate to say something about this, because you might have people in your life saying similar things:For everyone who is saying "She's an adult woman who gets to choose her own risks" -- what about the risks to EVERYONE ELSE if she's an asymptomatic carrier at some point? -- so in my own experience, yes, some people feel the need to say things like "you need to get them to stop doing that!!" and heap on a lot of guilt. It's very uncomfortable, there's a lot of blame thrown at you for a situation you didn't create and can't change. I like to throw this back at them by asking how I should stop them, should I get on a plane and go to their house and physically restrain them so they stop? This generally gets them to realize what an unreasonable thing they are demanding of me.
You might have some guilt yourself, feeling like you could contribute to the safety of all if you only explained things the right way (there's no magic right way that would do this). Personally I have found that directly working to better the overall situation in the world in the ways that I am able to contribute has probably staved off some of that feeling.
posted by yohko at 11:46 PM on August 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm going to relate a personal story here. I have a relative who I feel isn't being as safe for themselves as I wish they would be, about the age of your mother and have other risk factors as well, and though they are wearing masks and requiring others to wear them, they insist on participating in higher risk activities multiple times a week. Like your relative, they are also exposing anther relative to their level of risk.
But the thing is, these activities are pretty much what they live for in life. Nothing is more important to them. They are older, and there's only so much more time in their life they will be able to do these things, it's very possible that if they were to try to come back to them "in a year" -- well when you are in your 70s (well not for any of us actually, but I think people in their 70's experience the hard cold reality of this in a different way) another year of life isn't guaranteed to you, another year of being in good enough health to travel and be independent isn't guaranteed to you, and that was before the pandemic.
I've been very sad over this, and grieved the situation, but ultimately they are making their own choice. I've avoided arguing, but I've made a few small suggestions here and there that will enhance their safety and that they are likely to actually implement -- I generally bring these up in a very neutral tone, which is much more likely to get them to do these things. But "don't take this major risk" is not something I'd ever bring up with them, because there is zero chance that my doing that will change their behavior -- and I want however many times I might talk with them to be times we can connect, not argue.
My inclination is to remove myself from this situation by telling her that I cannot speak to her until after the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine she can get.
But you already are removed, physically, from this situation. You seem very upset by her decisions -- but are you so upset that you never want to speak to your mother again? (Maybe you do, particularly being in NYC...) Because if she dies before the pandemic is over or there is a vaccine, that's the choice you are making. Take a break for a bit if you need to, but think very hard before you make this an ultimatum contingent on things that none of us have control over.
You have a lot of feelings and difficult experiences here that it might help you to process with someone, if you don't have a way to have that in your life please check into teletherapy or call one one the covid mental health lines.
I do think it's appropriate to say something about this, because you might have people in your life saying similar things:For everyone who is saying "She's an adult woman who gets to choose her own risks" -- what about the risks to EVERYONE ELSE if she's an asymptomatic carrier at some point? -- so in my own experience, yes, some people feel the need to say things like "you need to get them to stop doing that!!" and heap on a lot of guilt. It's very uncomfortable, there's a lot of blame thrown at you for a situation you didn't create and can't change. I like to throw this back at them by asking how I should stop them, should I get on a plane and go to their house and physically restrain them so they stop? This generally gets them to realize what an unreasonable thing they are demanding of me.
You might have some guilt yourself, feeling like you could contribute to the safety of all if you only explained things the right way (there's no magic right way that would do this). Personally I have found that directly working to better the overall situation in the world in the ways that I am able to contribute has probably staved off some of that feeling.
posted by yohko at 11:46 PM on August 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
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I accept that she is a grown woman and free to do what she wants.
You have to say that to her, and mean it. It's also fine to tell her you love her, that you're feeling really anxious, that you'd be devastated to lose her, etc. but you can't send the message that she needs to shape her life around your feelings. If you can genuinely treat her as an independent adult instead of just paying lip service to the idea, that might give her the opening she needs to sincerely apologize.
posted by jon1270 at 4:07 AM on August 11, 2020 [39 favorites]