Father's budget expectations for moving to Greece
March 20, 2006 9:34 AM Subscribe
My father thinks he can relocate to Greece on a meagre budget (that's another story!). We (my wife and I) are sceptical of his budget expectations for buying a condo (for cash) in Greece.
He thinks that 40 000 Euros will buy him a reasonable place in Athens – I haven't seen anything to suggest this is going to get him anything other than a hole in a crappy neighbourhood. Not to mention other living budget issues (high speed internet, phone, transportation etc) on top of this.
Am I right?
He thinks that 40 000 Euros will buy him a reasonable place in Athens – I haven't seen anything to suggest this is going to get him anything other than a hole in a crappy neighbourhood. Not to mention other living budget issues (high speed internet, phone, transportation etc) on top of this.
Am I right?
how do you determine the difference between "a hole" and "a reasonable place"? Greece is pretty cheap, and probably athens even more so, since people always say you should get off the mainland & out to the islands when you visit. (I personally loved athens, but I was probably romanticizing it because I'm a philosophy student). That site seems to suggest the biggest problem may be being eligible to own property as a non-greek citizen.
But in any case, he won't buy before looking, right? So what's the harm in his looking? Let the city dash his hopes directly :).
posted by mdn at 10:38 AM on March 20, 2006
But in any case, he won't buy before looking, right? So what's the harm in his looking? Let the city dash his hopes directly :).
posted by mdn at 10:38 AM on March 20, 2006
Your father might not want Athens if he is in any way succeptable to resperatory problems. The air quality in the summer can be quite bad
posted by Raybun at 1:19 PM on March 20, 2006
posted by Raybun at 1:19 PM on March 20, 2006
My understanding (and I've had two Greek landlords, and have been to Greece) is that it's very hard to get anything done in Greece unless and until you know the right people (and can grease the right palms if necessary). If your father has little experience with Greece except as a tourist and expects to just waltz in with a credit card and a copy of the official rules and regulations, he's going to be sorely disappointed. You might want to buy him a copy of Durrell's Bitter Lemons, which describes the experience of dealing with contractors; true, it was Cyprus and fifty years ago, but some things are timeless.
posted by languagehat at 3:09 PM on March 20, 2006
posted by languagehat at 3:09 PM on March 20, 2006
Response by poster: Well, he is actually a Greek citizen as well as Canadian, so getting there won't be a problem.
My definition of a "hole" is anything that is possibly unhygenic (some kind of infestation, nomatter how small), flooring, or walls that are damaged. Odour is another "hole" quality. Bad smells that persist in the building or the apartment itself regardless of cooking or attempts to air out the place.
Greece used to be cheaper when it wasn't on the Euro, but even as the Canadian dollar has climbed, the cost of living there just doesn't seem much different than it would be here – at least in a major Canadian city.
As far as buying before looking, he is a bit of a leap before you look type, so in fact he was potentially going to move his life to Greece AND try to buy a place more or less in one fell swoop.
But of course he'd be stuck there in a way, because he'd have just spent all this money moving his life's wares across the ocean, so of course he'd have to find a way to make it work broke or not.
Personally I think I've got the math worked out so he could have all his Canadian pensions, a waterfront rented apartment on the lake, right near a lakefront park (pretty nice actually), with a walk to groceries, convenience store, doctor, 24hr streetcar, near family (us), plus investments and left over cash to save for trips and mad money. If he plunked all his cash on a condo in Greece he'd have no investment income left and only a partial pension 'cause some won't pay out if he's not in Canada.
But of course that does depend on the quality/location of the condo you can get in Greece for 40k Euro
posted by iTristan at 3:21 PM on March 20, 2006
My definition of a "hole" is anything that is possibly unhygenic (some kind of infestation, nomatter how small), flooring, or walls that are damaged. Odour is another "hole" quality. Bad smells that persist in the building or the apartment itself regardless of cooking or attempts to air out the place.
Greece used to be cheaper when it wasn't on the Euro, but even as the Canadian dollar has climbed, the cost of living there just doesn't seem much different than it would be here – at least in a major Canadian city.
As far as buying before looking, he is a bit of a leap before you look type, so in fact he was potentially going to move his life to Greece AND try to buy a place more or less in one fell swoop.
But of course he'd be stuck there in a way, because he'd have just spent all this money moving his life's wares across the ocean, so of course he'd have to find a way to make it work broke or not.
Personally I think I've got the math worked out so he could have all his Canadian pensions, a waterfront rented apartment on the lake, right near a lakefront park (pretty nice actually), with a walk to groceries, convenience store, doctor, 24hr streetcar, near family (us), plus investments and left over cash to save for trips and mad money. If he plunked all his cash on a condo in Greece he'd have no investment income left and only a partial pension 'cause some won't pay out if he's not in Canada.
But of course that does depend on the quality/location of the condo you can get in Greece for 40k Euro
posted by iTristan at 3:21 PM on March 20, 2006
Sorry, I didn't realize your father was Greek. In that case, ignore everything I said, but it's still a lousy idea, as you point out.
posted by languagehat at 5:04 PM on March 20, 2006
posted by languagehat at 5:04 PM on March 20, 2006
OK, I am living in Thessaloniki at the moment (2nd largest city in Greece, personally I find it much more livable than Athens). No, E40k is not going to get you anything decent in a major Greek city, not any more. The Greek housing market is in a major (IMHO) bubble, so prices have skyrocketed: you could pay anywhere from E1k to E3k per square meter in Athens or Thessaloniki (depending on neighborhood), so at the low end of the scale, your dad would be looking for a 30 sq.m (~300 sq ft) studio in an old building in a declining neighborhood.
However, rents have remained quite low, and you could rent some nice places for not too much money. E.g. E350-E500/mo could get you 100 sqmt+ in decent-to-nice neighborhoods in both major cities.
Now, besides housing, expect living costs to be similar to North America in the major metro areas (yes, I've lived in the US for about 10 yrs). Some things are much cheaper in Greece (basically anything to do with services/labor: medical services, etc), some are quite more expensive (pretty much any good, from the very low end to the very high end). I've found that on average, the differences wash out, unless you have major medical or insurance needs, in which case Greece will be much, much cheaper (with the quality of course going down as well).
posted by costas at 3:53 AM on March 21, 2006
However, rents have remained quite low, and you could rent some nice places for not too much money. E.g. E350-E500/mo could get you 100 sqmt+ in decent-to-nice neighborhoods in both major cities.
Now, besides housing, expect living costs to be similar to North America in the major metro areas (yes, I've lived in the US for about 10 yrs). Some things are much cheaper in Greece (basically anything to do with services/labor: medical services, etc), some are quite more expensive (pretty much any good, from the very low end to the very high end). I've found that on average, the differences wash out, unless you have major medical or insurance needs, in which case Greece will be much, much cheaper (with the quality of course going down as well).
posted by costas at 3:53 AM on March 21, 2006
Response by poster: Thanks for that costas, question about Greece's medical system. How does the funding work? Does one have to buy into some insurance plan, or is it automatically funded by the state?
In Canada, most regular and emergency medical services are free (unless you consider a nip and tuck "regular" };-> ) so for him, it might be a shock having to pay anything at all for medical care as it's not really part of anyone's day-to-day budget here – so of course this is a consideration.
posted by iTristan at 4:43 AM on March 21, 2006
In Canada, most regular and emergency medical services are free (unless you consider a nip and tuck "regular" };-> ) so for him, it might be a shock having to pay anything at all for medical care as it's not really part of anyone's day-to-day budget here – so of course this is a consideration.
posted by iTristan at 4:43 AM on March 21, 2006
Frankly, I am only now trying to figure out the medical system here myself (I've only recently repatriated). You definitely need medical coverage from one of the big state insurance agencies to get anything for free (which is a hassle, and probably out of the question for your dad), but on the other hand outright paying for stuff isn't prohibitive: e.g. I got an X-ray a few months ago and total cost cash was E5. Most medicine is under E20, a lot under E5, and doctor's visits go from E20-50, depending on doctor and specialty. These are total costs, not co-pays.
At the top end major surgery with 2-3 days hospitalization will run from E1500 to E3000 or so, depending on the hospital (high end being modern private hospitals). So, if you have a decent US nest-egg, it's actually worth trying to crunch the odds and see if you can just pay for stuff when it happens, knock-on-wood.
You can also buy private medical insurance, but I haven't looked into that at all.
posted by costas at 6:45 AM on March 21, 2006
At the top end major surgery with 2-3 days hospitalization will run from E1500 to E3000 or so, depending on the hospital (high end being modern private hospitals). So, if you have a decent US nest-egg, it's actually worth trying to crunch the odds and see if you can just pay for stuff when it happens, knock-on-wood.
You can also buy private medical insurance, but I haven't looked into that at all.
posted by costas at 6:45 AM on March 21, 2006
I should also add that the Greek state has several incentives (tax and duty-based mostly) for repatriating immigrants. So, for example your dad could say buy himself a nice E40k top-of-the line Mercedes Benz, import it in Greece tax-free, sell it on the open market for E80k (yes, duties on luxury cars are still close to 100%) and then use that to buy a nicer apartment...
I suggest talking to a local Greek consulate as to what kind of benefits he can get from the Greek state. The car example above is not fictional... Unfortunately I didn't qualify myself, so I can't help you more.
posted by costas at 6:50 AM on March 21, 2006
I suggest talking to a local Greek consulate as to what kind of benefits he can get from the Greek state. The car example above is not fictional... Unfortunately I didn't qualify myself, so I can't help you more.
posted by costas at 6:50 AM on March 21, 2006
Response by poster: costas, well he doesn't have any US nest egg as he's not from the US. And as Canadian health care is all taken care of by the government, there is no assumed budgeting for health care here as opposed to the market-based health care in the US. So this is a foreign concept and definitely not taken into consideration so far.
We've seen some of the tax incentives the Greek govt has in place. They are helpful but I don't think it's enough.
Pretty funny thought on importing luxury vehicles, is this a regular racket people use to make money? There's gotta be some regulation preventing this, or maybe if it's importaed under the pretences of "personal use" then they can't give him a hassle.
posted by iTristan at 8:15 AM on March 21, 2006
We've seen some of the tax incentives the Greek govt has in place. They are helpful but I don't think it's enough.
Pretty funny thought on importing luxury vehicles, is this a regular racket people use to make money? There's gotta be some regulation preventing this, or maybe if it's importaed under the pretences of "personal use" then they can't give him a hassle.
posted by iTristan at 8:15 AM on March 21, 2006
Yeah, the luxury vehicle thing used to be very widespread. When the incentive first started, duty-free vehicles had special plates (red lettering instead of the usual black, always starting with "AMO"). Pretty soon most luxury vehicles had AMO plates, at which point the then gov't just stopped issuing the special plates :-) I am not sure what the situation is now, but it's worth looking into...
posted by costas at 9:51 AM on March 21, 2006
posted by costas at 9:51 AM on March 21, 2006
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posted by brettski at 9:39 AM on March 20, 2006