Why do my male coworkers act different when other women are around?
August 2, 2020 11:06 AM Subscribe
Male coworkers act different depending on who is around. Snowflakes inside...
My assistant manager "Todd" will talk to me more when it's just the two of us than if others are around. When my coworker "Maria" is around, he'll make fun of me or ignore me. Once Maria went into the copy room and Todd came over to tell me something. He had his eyes on the copy room the whole time, as if not to "get caught" by Maria or something. I don't get it because we're supposed to work together, so we have to talk. Maria isn't our boss- She doesn't seem to like me, so maybe that's why? She's in her 60s and is the "Office Mom" type.
The other men act the same way. When Maria is out of the office, they're more social with me, but when she's there, they act as if I don't exist.
Todd and I went to a meeting to a different site and everything went fine, I thought. When we returned, all he did was complain about me to the boss (in front of me.) In private, I asked him what was wrong, but he said "nothing" and that I was a "good worker." Then why bash me like that to the boss?
Is this normal in the work place? I've been in other places where they act like this, but I just don't get it. Why not treat everyone equally?
My assistant manager "Todd" will talk to me more when it's just the two of us than if others are around. When my coworker "Maria" is around, he'll make fun of me or ignore me. Once Maria went into the copy room and Todd came over to tell me something. He had his eyes on the copy room the whole time, as if not to "get caught" by Maria or something. I don't get it because we're supposed to work together, so we have to talk. Maria isn't our boss- She doesn't seem to like me, so maybe that's why? She's in her 60s and is the "Office Mom" type.
The other men act the same way. When Maria is out of the office, they're more social with me, but when she's there, they act as if I don't exist.
Todd and I went to a meeting to a different site and everything went fine, I thought. When we returned, all he did was complain about me to the boss (in front of me.) In private, I asked him what was wrong, but he said "nothing" and that I was a "good worker." Then why bash me like that to the boss?
Is this normal in the work place? I've been in other places where they act like this, but I just don't get it. Why not treat everyone equally?
cis/het/woman, over 40.
Agreed with above. He wants a low-key/no-key office f-buddy situation and Maria has either seen it or keyed into it.
posted by oflinkey at 11:28 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Agreed with above. He wants a low-key/no-key office f-buddy situation and Maria has either seen it or keyed into it.
posted by oflinkey at 11:28 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
I’m thinking Maria knows how Todd operates and has set up some professional boundaries...and she may have endured age-related comments as well. She may be just fine with you but is keeping some mental distance as the slippery slope of ratifying questionable office behavior is being negotiated. If you are IDing her as Mom and not mentor or person with institutional know-how, that’s likely creating static. If this is happening because of how Todd creates/perpetuates stereotypes and career-limiting perceptions, well, it may be that the dysfunction originates from the guys, and you will be swimming upstream with Maria.
posted by childofTethys at 11:51 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by childofTethys at 11:51 AM on August 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
It seems like there are two separate dynamics going on.
For some reason, men are more cautious when Maria is about. Given the fact that Maria is older and perhaps has more experience or seniority and they know that Maria doesn't like you and so don't want to seem like they are "siding with" and get on her bad side. They are playing office politics and choosing not to piss off the person they think has more power than you.
Todd is also just unprofessional. Trashing you in front of the boss and then not being willing to actually talk directly with you about any issues is just stupid. Also probably a power play to make you look bad and increase his own status in front of the boss.
I would suggest you start finding ways to firmly stand up for yourself by not letting this behavior slide. If someone starts complaining about you, you are well within your rights to tell them to discuss any constructive feedback with you in a professional manner. Don't let yourself get interrupted or steamrolled in conversation. If someone is making fun of you, interrupt them and ask without emotion, "why would you say that?" put the onus on them to explain their unprofessional behavior. Document this behavior in case you need to complain.
But most importantly start looking for a new job. Don't let yourself stay in this toxic work situation. You do not have a champion and your career prospects aren't going to go anywhere in this organization.
posted by brookeb at 11:53 AM on August 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
For some reason, men are more cautious when Maria is about. Given the fact that Maria is older and perhaps has more experience or seniority and they know that Maria doesn't like you and so don't want to seem like they are "siding with" and get on her bad side. They are playing office politics and choosing not to piss off the person they think has more power than you.
Todd is also just unprofessional. Trashing you in front of the boss and then not being willing to actually talk directly with you about any issues is just stupid. Also probably a power play to make you look bad and increase his own status in front of the boss.
I would suggest you start finding ways to firmly stand up for yourself by not letting this behavior slide. If someone starts complaining about you, you are well within your rights to tell them to discuss any constructive feedback with you in a professional manner. Don't let yourself get interrupted or steamrolled in conversation. If someone is making fun of you, interrupt them and ask without emotion, "why would you say that?" put the onus on them to explain their unprofessional behavior. Document this behavior in case you need to complain.
But most importantly start looking for a new job. Don't let yourself stay in this toxic work situation. You do not have a champion and your career prospects aren't going to go anywhere in this organization.
posted by brookeb at 11:53 AM on August 2, 2020 [17 favorites]
yeah it makes sense that if Maria has power and doesn't like you (for whatever reason, but especially if there's even a grain of resentment for your being younger (prettier?)) -- then everyone will play down their association with you when she's around, and especially play down anything that looks like admiration, flirtiness etc.
Recommend not paying so much attention to Todd and his motivations, and improving relationship with Maria if possible.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:53 PM on August 2, 2020
Recommend not paying so much attention to Todd and his motivations, and improving relationship with Maria if possible.
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:53 PM on August 2, 2020
Are you sure Maria doesn't like you? (Did Todd tell you that?) Does she maybe just act neutrally instead of being overtly friendly? Because to me, that first situation reads as "Todd habitually acts inappropriately toward younger (female?) co-workers, but starts off slow so they don't realize it; Maria fully recognizes this and has either confronted him directly or backed up somebody's complaint in the past, but whatever happened wasn't enough to get Todd fired. Todd now keeps an eye out for Maria lest she catch him again and have better evidence of a pattern, and Maria may be keeping her distance from certain types of people so she can't be accused of simply siding with a friend and/or poisoning new co-workers against Todd if the situation reoccurs."
posted by teremala at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by teremala at 1:49 PM on August 2, 2020 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: I've been there for a year and Maria still won't say "Good morning" to me, even though I always say it to her. She treats me differently than she does the others in the office. She told the boss that I seemed "confused" when work was assigned to me, when I was just confused as to why Maria was giving me work to do instead of my boss. She slammed the door on me one morning and others were around to witness it.
Maria and Todd seem close- she knows his family and he knows hers. Todd also has relatives who work in another branch of our company. When I started the position, Maria seemed upset and I overheard Todd trying to calm her down. She's always trying to hug him or touch him, but yelled at me when I laughed at something he said.
It's a very clique-y culture- I don't think I'll ever fit in because most of the people either grew up in the area, live in the area and/or have relatives/spouses also working for the company.
posted by lawgirl at 2:22 PM on August 2, 2020
Maria and Todd seem close- she knows his family and he knows hers. Todd also has relatives who work in another branch of our company. When I started the position, Maria seemed upset and I overheard Todd trying to calm her down. She's always trying to hug him or touch him, but yelled at me when I laughed at something he said.
It's a very clique-y culture- I don't think I'll ever fit in because most of the people either grew up in the area, live in the area and/or have relatives/spouses also working for the company.
posted by lawgirl at 2:22 PM on August 2, 2020
For some reason Todd doesn't want Maria to know that he is friendly with you, and since you're picking up on the same thing from the other men in the office, I read this as Maria having something against you and the men in the office not wanting to cross Maria because she has some kind of power in the workplace. I agree with the person who suggested prioritizing getting closer with Maria if you can, although it's pretty tough if she won't even acknowledge you. Maybe you could invite her to lunch or coffee to get to know her better? You could also even ask her directly why she's not very warm with you: "Maria, I've noticed that we don't really seem to be connecting. Is something wrong or have I done something to offend you?"
The thing with your assistant manager I read more as him wanting to look good to the boss and/or wanting to look like whatever was accomplished at the meeting was mostly him and/or he feels like you are looking too good and you're a threat to his job. Did you ask your boss specifically about the feedback he gave his boss? For example, "When we were recapping the meeting with [Big Boss], you said I could do X better/differently. Could you give me some more specific feedback on that?" Because it *is* weird that he complained about your performance and then when asked directly said that nothing is wrong. If you care about this job, I would recommend finding out how he really feels about your performance, but I think this is probably more about him and his insecurities than it is about you.
My strategy in these environments is to be as direct as possible and remember that the bullshit isn't about me.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 4:47 PM on August 2, 2020
The thing with your assistant manager I read more as him wanting to look good to the boss and/or wanting to look like whatever was accomplished at the meeting was mostly him and/or he feels like you are looking too good and you're a threat to his job. Did you ask your boss specifically about the feedback he gave his boss? For example, "When we were recapping the meeting with [Big Boss], you said I could do X better/differently. Could you give me some more specific feedback on that?" Because it *is* weird that he complained about your performance and then when asked directly said that nothing is wrong. If you care about this job, I would recommend finding out how he really feels about your performance, but I think this is probably more about him and his insecurities than it is about you.
My strategy in these environments is to be as direct as possible and remember that the bullshit isn't about me.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 4:47 PM on August 2, 2020
Response by poster: @Colonel_Chappy- I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think that the boss sees through Todd and his opinion doesn't matter as much as my boss's. Todd made some remark about a part-time help worker agreeing with him, but the boss didn't seem too concerned. It was upsetting more to me because Todd and I are supposed to be a team, but he only cares about impressing the boss and no one else. I wish I had more support from him and the people that I work with.
"He feels like you are looking too good and you're a threat to his job"
The boss likes him and promoted him within 6 months, so his job is safe. I have more education and training than Todd and he has made remarks about my degrees.
"My strategy in these environments is to be as direct as possible and remember that the bullshit isn't about me."
How do you not take it personally when it seems to be?
posted by lawgirl at 5:33 PM on August 2, 2020
"He feels like you are looking too good and you're a threat to his job"
The boss likes him and promoted him within 6 months, so his job is safe. I have more education and training than Todd and he has made remarks about my degrees.
"My strategy in these environments is to be as direct as possible and remember that the bullshit isn't about me."
How do you not take it personally when it seems to be?
posted by lawgirl at 5:33 PM on August 2, 2020
Maria and Todd seem close- she knows his family and he knows hers. Todd also has relatives who work in another branch of our company. When I started the position, Maria seemed upset and I overheard Todd trying to calm her down. She's always trying to hug him or touch him, but yelled at me when I laughed at something he said.
It sounds like Maria and Todd have discussed you in private, as in gossiped about you. Todd knows that Maria is not fond of you. In an effort to avoid conflict and to appear on Maria's side, Todd ignores you or makes fun of you when Maria is around. He is trying to keep the peace with Maria.
posted by loveandhappiness at 7:32 PM on August 2, 2020
It sounds like Maria and Todd have discussed you in private, as in gossiped about you. Todd knows that Maria is not fond of you. In an effort to avoid conflict and to appear on Maria's side, Todd ignores you or makes fun of you when Maria is around. He is trying to keep the peace with Maria.
posted by loveandhappiness at 7:32 PM on August 2, 2020
How do you not take it personally when it seems to be?
Okay I got Maria all wrong: when you said "mom" I thought you meant, like, generally nice, but clearly no. Still, whatever these people have going on is aaaall about them. It's not you. You're there, so you're getting caught up in it, but they'd treat someone else the exact same way if it fit their dramatic narrative. That's the sense in which it's not personal. If you stay long enough, you'll probably see them (collectively) do something similar to someone else equally undeserving. Will it be Maria adoring someone Todd sneers at behind her back? Or everyone ganging up to make one person look bad? Who knows! But you can rest assured that there's nothing you're doing/not doing to make them treat you this way. In fact, you could twist yourself into all kinds of contortions trying to "fix" things and still achieve nothing but making yourself sick. Keep your sense of self-worth close, and find another job when you can.
posted by teremala at 7:40 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Okay I got Maria all wrong: when you said "mom" I thought you meant, like, generally nice, but clearly no. Still, whatever these people have going on is aaaall about them. It's not you. You're there, so you're getting caught up in it, but they'd treat someone else the exact same way if it fit their dramatic narrative. That's the sense in which it's not personal. If you stay long enough, you'll probably see them (collectively) do something similar to someone else equally undeserving. Will it be Maria adoring someone Todd sneers at behind her back? Or everyone ganging up to make one person look bad? Who knows! But you can rest assured that there's nothing you're doing/not doing to make them treat you this way. In fact, you could twist yourself into all kinds of contortions trying to "fix" things and still achieve nothing but making yourself sick. Keep your sense of self-worth close, and find another job when you can.
posted by teremala at 7:40 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Sounds like Maria has some power in the office - perhaps she is unofficially second-in-command - and she doesn't like you (for whatever reason). It doesn't matter if her reason for not liking you is valid or not, because trying to prove that her reason isn't valid or true won't change her mind about you. Start looking for a new job, because this place won't allow you to thrive.
posted by gakiko at 10:22 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by gakiko at 10:22 PM on August 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Start looking for a new job. The drama in this place is mounting and pretty soon it’s going to blow back on you.
posted by Jubey at 12:08 AM on August 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 12:08 AM on August 3, 2020 [4 favorites]
It sounds like Maria has power of some sort, is interested in Todd, and sees you as a threat. Todd sounds like he is afraid of Maria or her power and so he, your boss, treats you poorly when she is around.
If this has been going on for over a year, it isn't going to stop.
You deserve to work in an actual healthy workplace.
posted by blueberry at 7:54 AM on August 3, 2020
If this has been going on for over a year, it isn't going to stop.
You deserve to work in an actual healthy workplace.
posted by blueberry at 7:54 AM on August 3, 2020
Response by poster: What's the endgame with people who behave like this? With the way they talk, it's almost like they're proud of being a bully. Is it because people let them get away with it? Are they trying to bully people out of a job if they don't like them? If the person leaves, they have to do their work, so wouldn't you want people to stay?
I shouldn't analyze, but I just don't understand cultures like this.
I'm working on getting out. I have one phone interview this week and am sending out more applications.
posted by lawgirl at 4:31 PM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I shouldn't analyze, but I just don't understand cultures like this.
I'm working on getting out. I have one phone interview this week and am sending out more applications.
posted by lawgirl at 4:31 PM on August 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing you are a younger woman, perhaps one who is good-looking. Young and/or attractive women can have a disproportionate gravity in group dynamics. People notice them and respond to them.
As long as you feel confident that you behavior isn't in any way a concern, then this is Todd's problem. Maintain space from him, physically and energetically. Don't talk to him 1:1 except about work stuff. Check in with yourself on how you are showing up. Dress conservatively, and don't be overly smile-y, cute-sy, or friendly. Channel your inner boss lady.
I would also invite Maria out for a 30-minute coffee and just try to build a relationship with her. If you sense she doesn't like you, all the more important to try to nurture an effective working relationship with her. You don't need to be friends, but you want to be on good terms with everyone at your org.
posted by amaire at 10:59 AM on August 4, 2020
As long as you feel confident that you behavior isn't in any way a concern, then this is Todd's problem. Maintain space from him, physically and energetically. Don't talk to him 1:1 except about work stuff. Check in with yourself on how you are showing up. Dress conservatively, and don't be overly smile-y, cute-sy, or friendly. Channel your inner boss lady.
I would also invite Maria out for a 30-minute coffee and just try to build a relationship with her. If you sense she doesn't like you, all the more important to try to nurture an effective working relationship with her. You don't need to be friends, but you want to be on good terms with everyone at your org.
posted by amaire at 10:59 AM on August 4, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
a) flirting and not wanting Maria to pick up on it. b) being a dick to reinforce the power imbalance. c) he will, at some time, make an overture. something as simple as coffee/drinks/walk. d) it will be a minefield for you.
I don't really have any advice. Not a woman. But I've seen this pattern often enough to call it a 'pattern'.
I could be wrong!
posted by j_curiouser at 11:14 AM on August 2, 2020 [5 favorites]