How to deal with references after termination?
July 29, 2020 7:39 AM Subscribe
I was fired from my job last month and am deep into the interview process of a potential employer. If the potential employer asks for references what should I tell them?
Right after I was fired I immediately began filling out applications. I had one response right away and I am now at the last stage of the interview process.
Nobody in the interview process has asked why I left my old job. I said that we "parted ways" and they didn't really probe any further. They did not ask whether I was laid off or if I was fired.
I am worried now that they are going to ask for references and they will contact my previous employer.
Frankly, I am still really stunned by my termination. In February I had a "Meets Expectations" performance review. There were some items that came up that my boss and I went over that 1) I addressed over the next couple months 2) were never presented as serious issues 3) were outside the scope of my responsibilities. I also received a performance bonus for 2019 and a senior level person in my department said recently I have been doing great work. The previous years my reviews were exceeds expectations and just last year my boss told me I was being discussed as the next person to take over his position when he retired!
At the end of last month I was called into a meeting with my supervisor and HR and given a thirty-day final warning. I was never given any other warning prior to that meeting. The items we reviewed were minor - typos, essentially. HR didn't have a performance improvement plan and neither my boss or HR offer any kind of criteria to help me know if I would be on the right track over the next thirty days. Finally HR suggested weekly meetings with my supervisor. He agreed, but we never had a meeting.
Ten days later I was called into a meeting again and was terminated for a misunderstanding - I was unclear about a new process and put the wrong information in a report (the error was only in a draft, and not the final report). In the termination notice my boss said that we had discussed this issue before but it had never come up - either in a performance review or in the thirty day final notice.
I feel conflicted because I want to take responsibility for my own part in the termination (I could have done a better job communicating my intent in the incident that led to my termination) but I also feel like my boss acted in bad faith throughout the entire process and was going to fire me no matter what. I am worried that my potential new employer is going to ask for reference but I feel like my former employer will misrepresent me and my work.
I asked a former co-worker earlier today if they would be a reference but they have not responded yet. I am also a leader in my local political party and could use some of those contacts as character references if that would be appropriate. I left my previous jobs in good standing and know they would give me positive referrals.
This whole situation is terrible and I just want to move on. Thank you for your help!
Right after I was fired I immediately began filling out applications. I had one response right away and I am now at the last stage of the interview process.
Nobody in the interview process has asked why I left my old job. I said that we "parted ways" and they didn't really probe any further. They did not ask whether I was laid off or if I was fired.
I am worried now that they are going to ask for references and they will contact my previous employer.
Frankly, I am still really stunned by my termination. In February I had a "Meets Expectations" performance review. There were some items that came up that my boss and I went over that 1) I addressed over the next couple months 2) were never presented as serious issues 3) were outside the scope of my responsibilities. I also received a performance bonus for 2019 and a senior level person in my department said recently I have been doing great work. The previous years my reviews were exceeds expectations and just last year my boss told me I was being discussed as the next person to take over his position when he retired!
At the end of last month I was called into a meeting with my supervisor and HR and given a thirty-day final warning. I was never given any other warning prior to that meeting. The items we reviewed were minor - typos, essentially. HR didn't have a performance improvement plan and neither my boss or HR offer any kind of criteria to help me know if I would be on the right track over the next thirty days. Finally HR suggested weekly meetings with my supervisor. He agreed, but we never had a meeting.
Ten days later I was called into a meeting again and was terminated for a misunderstanding - I was unclear about a new process and put the wrong information in a report (the error was only in a draft, and not the final report). In the termination notice my boss said that we had discussed this issue before but it had never come up - either in a performance review or in the thirty day final notice.
I feel conflicted because I want to take responsibility for my own part in the termination (I could have done a better job communicating my intent in the incident that led to my termination) but I also feel like my boss acted in bad faith throughout the entire process and was going to fire me no matter what. I am worried that my potential new employer is going to ask for reference but I feel like my former employer will misrepresent me and my work.
I asked a former co-worker earlier today if they would be a reference but they have not responded yet. I am also a leader in my local political party and could use some of those contacts as character references if that would be appropriate. I left my previous jobs in good standing and know they would give me positive referrals.
This whole situation is terrible and I just want to move on. Thank you for your help!
I'm sorry you're going through this. This looks to me like they wanted to let you go and made up a justification to just barely meet their procedures.
Many companies don't actually do references. They will confirm employment but nothing further. It's for their legal benefit but possibly helps you here. You may be able to check that.
Your references should be people you trust not a boss and company that acted poorly. They wanted you out but didn't want a formal layoff or termination without cause probably to save money.
posted by jclarkin at 7:59 AM on July 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
Many companies don't actually do references. They will confirm employment but nothing further. It's for their legal benefit but possibly helps you here. You may be able to check that.
Your references should be people you trust not a boss and company that acted poorly. They wanted you out but didn't want a formal layoff or termination without cause probably to save money.
posted by jclarkin at 7:59 AM on July 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
Based on my own experience, I agree with jclarkin that they decided they wanted you gone and proceeded to manufacture an excuse to fire you.
You should not "take responsibility" for your own part in the termination, because you were being gaslit and manipulated. One of the clearest indicators of this is that they would only give you vague, trivial examples of your mistakes (typos? an error in a draft that was corrected before the final version?), didn't have a performance improvement plan, and wouldn't give you criteria to know whether you were doing better. And for your manager to agree to weekly meetings but not ever have one? They weren't actually interested in your performance or you improving, they were creating a paper trail to justify firing you.
posted by Lexica at 8:14 AM on July 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
You should not "take responsibility" for your own part in the termination, because you were being gaslit and manipulated. One of the clearest indicators of this is that they would only give you vague, trivial examples of your mistakes (typos? an error in a draft that was corrected before the final version?), didn't have a performance improvement plan, and wouldn't give you criteria to know whether you were doing better. And for your manager to agree to weekly meetings but not ever have one? They weren't actually interested in your performance or you improving, they were creating a paper trail to justify firing you.
posted by Lexica at 8:14 AM on July 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
You may very well find your references will provide a stronger recommendation when you are fired.
There are purely pragmatic reasons for that - in particular, companies are interested in minimizing their legal exposure for terminations. The best way to minimize legal exposure is by minimizing damages/harms to the person fired, and the best way to ensure that is to get them rehired somewhere else as quickly as possible. Doing so both minimizes the chance of the person fired suing the company, and also minimizes the cost to the company if such a lawsuit is successful.
There are also more emotional reasons - managers are humans too, and it's not especially common (in my experience) for managers to want to further harm people past termination. Sometimes managers are simply coerced into firing people - for budget reasons, political reasons, or because some corporate officer just had a bad day. In those cases, the manager will be personally interested in fixing their actions. Sometimes managers just see a person as being poorly matched with the organization. I've seen a number of people go from doing poorly at one organization to very well at another organization. Even if the manager thinks that you may not be a good fit for their organization, that doesn't mean they think you won't be a good fit at any organization. The manager may be inclined to advocate for you at a potentially better company fit.
My current company doesn't check references beyond confirming dates of employment. We've found there is minimal information from the references. I believe that. In particular, at previous organizations where checking references was a thing, I never had a single reference check come back with negative information.
posted by saeculorum at 8:37 AM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
There are purely pragmatic reasons for that - in particular, companies are interested in minimizing their legal exposure for terminations. The best way to minimize legal exposure is by minimizing damages/harms to the person fired, and the best way to ensure that is to get them rehired somewhere else as quickly as possible. Doing so both minimizes the chance of the person fired suing the company, and also minimizes the cost to the company if such a lawsuit is successful.
There are also more emotional reasons - managers are humans too, and it's not especially common (in my experience) for managers to want to further harm people past termination. Sometimes managers are simply coerced into firing people - for budget reasons, political reasons, or because some corporate officer just had a bad day. In those cases, the manager will be personally interested in fixing their actions. Sometimes managers just see a person as being poorly matched with the organization. I've seen a number of people go from doing poorly at one organization to very well at another organization. Even if the manager thinks that you may not be a good fit for their organization, that doesn't mean they think you won't be a good fit at any organization. The manager may be inclined to advocate for you at a potentially better company fit.
My current company doesn't check references beyond confirming dates of employment. We've found there is minimal information from the references. I believe that. In particular, at previous organizations where checking references was a thing, I never had a single reference check come back with negative information.
posted by saeculorum at 8:37 AM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
Echoing what everyone else has said. I left a job under very rough circumstances last year. Fortunately, I was able to use some of my former bosses (who had left before I was let go) as references, which went a long way to helping me find a new position. There's bound to be coworkers, former managers, other people who you've worked with in your previous job who can put in a good word for you as references. Rely on them.
posted by SansPoint at 9:08 AM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 9:08 AM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
jclarkin has it right. If they give you a bad reference that keeps you from getting hired, you could likely sue them and they don't want to leave themselves open to that.
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:09 AM on July 29, 2020
posted by Obscure Reference at 9:09 AM on July 29, 2020
If they give you a bad reference that keeps you from getting hired, you could likely sue them
Your link includes a very crucial part of defamation that you are not mentioning - "[y]our former employer must have made false statements about you [and y]our former employer must have known with certainty that these statements were false." Bad references are not illegal, they are simply uncommon. The notion that bad references are illegal is a common misconception.
posted by saeculorum at 9:13 AM on July 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
Your link includes a very crucial part of defamation that you are not mentioning - "[y]our former employer must have made false statements about you [and y]our former employer must have known with certainty that these statements were false." Bad references are not illegal, they are simply uncommon. The notion that bad references are illegal is a common misconception.
posted by saeculorum at 9:13 AM on July 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
There are two separate issues here, references and verification. It's pretty likely that the new place will call the old place to verify employment. They'll talk to the person in charge of HR, and ask "did Tevin work there from ___ to ___?", to which the HR person will respond either yes or no. And that's pretty much the end of it. Unless you worked closely with HR, or the company was only like ten people, the HR person probably doesn't know a whole lot about your particular situation. Even if they do, the person from the new company doesn't expect them to, so they won't ask.
In my experience, it's 50-50 whether a company will ask for references, and another 50-50 whether they call the ones you provide. This late in the process, they're not looking for a lot of information. The point is more to fact-check the things you've said you can do. So, like, if you say you're experienced with SQL, they'll call a reference and ask about the kinds of SQL queries you would have written. If your reference says that they don't think you can even spell SQL, that might be a problem. But as long as they say "oh yeah, Tevin has done some SQL stuff", that's usually going to be enough. And if you had bigger problems, you probably don't want your references to be the one to give that away ("except for the embezzlement, Tevin was a great employee"). It doesn't sound like that's anything to worry about.
The thing about references is that you get to choose who you provide. You're not obligated to give your old boss's name. One of my best references is a former colleague - same position as me, just a little more senior. We worked really closely together, and our manager was not particularly hands-on, so in terms of knowing what I'm actually capable of at a detailed level, she's the person who can best speak to that, even though she didn't have any sort of authority over me. I've also been a reference for someone who had the same title I did. A former co-worker applied for a position at my new company without realizing I worked there, and after she found out I did, she gave me as a reference even though I was junior to her at our old company because she knew I understood the new company and could speak to how she would fit in there. You should only give the names of people you know will give you a good reference. If you're old boss won't, or if you're not sure, forget him and find someone else who will.
The other thing about references is that you should be notifying them that you're listing them as references, so there should be some room for conversation about what you'd like them to say. If they agree to be a reference for you, say something like "Could you talk specifically about the Carpenter project? This position is going to be pretty similar to that, so if you could emphasize what I did there, that would give a good impression. Oh and by the way, they didn't ask why I left, so could you try not to draw attention to the fact that I was let go?"
I know how stressful job searching can be, but keep in mind that if you've made it this far, it's because they like you. They almost certainly believe you can do the job, and now it's just a question of making sure you're not a pathological liar, and whether you'd be a better fit (financially, socially, etc.) than other qualified applicants. It's also a really good sign that you got this far so early in your process. Unless this is a really specialized position that only opens up irregularly (e.g., astronaut) and you just happened to apply at a time when the position was open, there will probably be other applications and interviews even if you don't get this one. You're clearly a strong candidate, and it's just a matter of time before you find a new position. Best of luck!
posted by kevinbelt at 9:18 AM on July 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
In my experience, it's 50-50 whether a company will ask for references, and another 50-50 whether they call the ones you provide. This late in the process, they're not looking for a lot of information. The point is more to fact-check the things you've said you can do. So, like, if you say you're experienced with SQL, they'll call a reference and ask about the kinds of SQL queries you would have written. If your reference says that they don't think you can even spell SQL, that might be a problem. But as long as they say "oh yeah, Tevin has done some SQL stuff", that's usually going to be enough. And if you had bigger problems, you probably don't want your references to be the one to give that away ("except for the embezzlement, Tevin was a great employee"). It doesn't sound like that's anything to worry about.
The thing about references is that you get to choose who you provide. You're not obligated to give your old boss's name. One of my best references is a former colleague - same position as me, just a little more senior. We worked really closely together, and our manager was not particularly hands-on, so in terms of knowing what I'm actually capable of at a detailed level, she's the person who can best speak to that, even though she didn't have any sort of authority over me. I've also been a reference for someone who had the same title I did. A former co-worker applied for a position at my new company without realizing I worked there, and after she found out I did, she gave me as a reference even though I was junior to her at our old company because she knew I understood the new company and could speak to how she would fit in there. You should only give the names of people you know will give you a good reference. If you're old boss won't, or if you're not sure, forget him and find someone else who will.
The other thing about references is that you should be notifying them that you're listing them as references, so there should be some room for conversation about what you'd like them to say. If they agree to be a reference for you, say something like "Could you talk specifically about the Carpenter project? This position is going to be pretty similar to that, so if you could emphasize what I did there, that would give a good impression. Oh and by the way, they didn't ask why I left, so could you try not to draw attention to the fact that I was let go?"
I know how stressful job searching can be, but keep in mind that if you've made it this far, it's because they like you. They almost certainly believe you can do the job, and now it's just a question of making sure you're not a pathological liar, and whether you'd be a better fit (financially, socially, etc.) than other qualified applicants. It's also a really good sign that you got this far so early in your process. Unless this is a really specialized position that only opens up irregularly (e.g., astronaut) and you just happened to apply at a time when the position was open, there will probably be other applications and interviews even if you don't get this one. You're clearly a strong candidate, and it's just a matter of time before you find a new position. Best of luck!
posted by kevinbelt at 9:18 AM on July 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
There is nothing to stop the new company from calling your old boss. Yeah, you get to choose your references, but unless your previous job was a deep secret and your old company has an unlisted number, it's both easy and legal for them to contact your old boss, and your previous company may or may not have a policy about what your old boss is or is not allowed to discuss, and your old boss may or may not follow that policy even if it exists!
And old bosses absolutely do give bad references sometimes - I know, it's happened to me. Most people do not sue over this kind of thing, because it's exhausting and expensive, and a bad reference doesn't necessarily include any false information, which is the only legally actionable thing. All a bad reference has to do is leave out the good stuff and focus on the negatives.
Anyway.
I would recommend that you:
1) Feel out your old boss on what they would say if called by another company. Obviously you can't 100% trust what they say but you may be able to get a feeling about what kind of stuff they might say.
2) Find other references who can directly address the areas where you think your old boss might say negative things. Coach them on what you would like them to focus on.
3) If the new company asks you about talking to your old boss (they might, if they notice old boss is not on your reference list), explain what happened, very dispassionately: you were surprised to be terminated not long after a very positive performance review over what had previously been presented as very minor errors. Then specifically mention that your chosen references (peers at this most recent job, bosses from previous jobs - I would stay away from the political party contacts unless that's very closely related to the kind of work you do) will be happy to address any concerns.
posted by mskyle at 9:22 AM on July 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
And old bosses absolutely do give bad references sometimes - I know, it's happened to me. Most people do not sue over this kind of thing, because it's exhausting and expensive, and a bad reference doesn't necessarily include any false information, which is the only legally actionable thing. All a bad reference has to do is leave out the good stuff and focus on the negatives.
Anyway.
I would recommend that you:
1) Feel out your old boss on what they would say if called by another company. Obviously you can't 100% trust what they say but you may be able to get a feeling about what kind of stuff they might say.
2) Find other references who can directly address the areas where you think your old boss might say negative things. Coach them on what you would like them to focus on.
3) If the new company asks you about talking to your old boss (they might, if they notice old boss is not on your reference list), explain what happened, very dispassionately: you were surprised to be terminated not long after a very positive performance review over what had previously been presented as very minor errors. Then specifically mention that your chosen references (peers at this most recent job, bosses from previous jobs - I would stay away from the political party contacts unless that's very closely related to the kind of work you do) will be happy to address any concerns.
posted by mskyle at 9:22 AM on July 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
HiddenInput is right: if they ask you for references, just give ones you know will be positive. I've done a lot of hiring and we have always accepted the references the candidate supplied unless they were really obviously lacking -- like, if the person could not provide a single former supervisor, only colleagues and friends. IME it's very common for people to not provide their most recent employer as a reference.
The new company will probably not probe further into why you left your last company, but if they do, you don't need to (and shouldn't) get into the weeds. Just say something like "It's a great company and I really enjoyed working there. Ultimately I decided I wanted to do something slightly different, like [what this company does]."
I think most companies are very willing to accept euphemistic language and partial truths in the hiring process. Because they want to move forward and get folks hired, and also because they know that the world is messy, and that employers/supervisors are just as likely to make mistakes or to be the source of problems, as their employees are.
posted by Susan PG at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
The new company will probably not probe further into why you left your last company, but if they do, you don't need to (and shouldn't) get into the weeds. Just say something like "It's a great company and I really enjoyed working there. Ultimately I decided I wanted to do something slightly different, like [what this company does]."
I think most companies are very willing to accept euphemistic language and partial truths in the hiring process. Because they want to move forward and get folks hired, and also because they know that the world is messy, and that employers/supervisors are just as likely to make mistakes or to be the source of problems, as their employees are.
posted by Susan PG at 9:28 AM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
Just be able to provide references, from somewhere. If you can get at least one from a person you worked with at the last place you worked that's preferable, maybe reach out to a couple people on LinkedIn and ask if they'd be willing, but yes absolutely scatter it around. Referrals are from individuals who can comment on some aspect of your personality and work performance; they do not come from The Workplace except in the form of fact-specific employment verification.
The exercise is mostly to weed out people who literally can't find three people who can be persuaded in some way to say nice noises about you.
New employers understand that there are all kinds of reasons for bad blood at the old employer, including former employers who are angry and retaliatory because you left and they took it personally, and employment situations that fell apart for all kinds of reasons.
People become convinced that work history and references etc are the fabled "permanent record" of school-days lore. It's not. There is no central repository of hirings and firings unless there were criminal charges involved, or in theory if it made the news in some way (like if BigCorp laid off its entire Widget Division and your resume says "BigCorp, Widget Division"). Literally the only factual detail is start and end date, which will likely be in the databases of Social Security, your state's employment commission records, and could be interpolated from IRS withholding data. The IRS knows how much income was reported, but even "salary" is a very whiffy number as companies tell the IRS a hard dollar amount but there's a whole lot of bullshit in the "Total Overall Compensation" they like you to think you're being paid (and also in what any new job is going to offer you).
Your employer cooked up some bullshit in order to reduce headcount (or for political reasons) and try to avoid paying unemployment. It's considered inappropriate to say that in interviews, but feel free to smile and euphemize and tell the truth as you perceive it within whatever safety zone you are comfortable with. I personally would be okay with, "I'm still a little unclear what happened, honestly. Things were good and I was routinely praised for performance and then I was out without any real explanation. I'm assuming it was a reduction in force; things are so uncertain right now, it seemed like a sudden decision."
By the way, they did such a halfass job of inventing cause that if you did not apply for UI out of shame, please do. Your workforce commission is generally on your side, and will make them justify it if they contest your coverage. (I know these entities are massively overwhelmed right now and it could take months to even talk to a case manager, but FILE anyway. Your former employer is hoping you won't, but when the paperwork hits their HR department they may very well realize the gambit isn't going to work and not contest it.)
This is not your fault, you don't have to take responsibility for it. You got screwed.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:14 AM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
The exercise is mostly to weed out people who literally can't find three people who can be persuaded in some way to say nice noises about you.
New employers understand that there are all kinds of reasons for bad blood at the old employer, including former employers who are angry and retaliatory because you left and they took it personally, and employment situations that fell apart for all kinds of reasons.
People become convinced that work history and references etc are the fabled "permanent record" of school-days lore. It's not. There is no central repository of hirings and firings unless there were criminal charges involved, or in theory if it made the news in some way (like if BigCorp laid off its entire Widget Division and your resume says "BigCorp, Widget Division"). Literally the only factual detail is start and end date, which will likely be in the databases of Social Security, your state's employment commission records, and could be interpolated from IRS withholding data. The IRS knows how much income was reported, but even "salary" is a very whiffy number as companies tell the IRS a hard dollar amount but there's a whole lot of bullshit in the "Total Overall Compensation" they like you to think you're being paid (and also in what any new job is going to offer you).
Your employer cooked up some bullshit in order to reduce headcount (or for political reasons) and try to avoid paying unemployment. It's considered inappropriate to say that in interviews, but feel free to smile and euphemize and tell the truth as you perceive it within whatever safety zone you are comfortable with. I personally would be okay with, "I'm still a little unclear what happened, honestly. Things were good and I was routinely praised for performance and then I was out without any real explanation. I'm assuming it was a reduction in force; things are so uncertain right now, it seemed like a sudden decision."
By the way, they did such a halfass job of inventing cause that if you did not apply for UI out of shame, please do. Your workforce commission is generally on your side, and will make them justify it if they contest your coverage. (I know these entities are massively overwhelmed right now and it could take months to even talk to a case manager, but FILE anyway. Your former employer is hoping you won't, but when the paperwork hits their HR department they may very well realize the gambit isn't going to work and not contest it.)
This is not your fault, you don't have to take responsibility for it. You got screwed.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:14 AM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
I've never experienced an employer (and I've been on both sides of this question - applicant and interviewer) verifying ANYTHING except dates of employment, and MAYBE title once or twice. For personal references, you get to pick and choose and I've never seen anyone question that, either.
It's smart to reach out to your references and let them know about your job search. I was not looking when my current job found me, but when I pursued the job and had to submit references, they told me "give us more than you think we'll need - we require at least 3 responses". My current company has this online survey process thing for folks providing references, so no one even talked to anyone.
posted by ersatzkat at 10:31 AM on July 29, 2020
It's smart to reach out to your references and let them know about your job search. I was not looking when my current job found me, but when I pursued the job and had to submit references, they told me "give us more than you think we'll need - we require at least 3 responses". My current company has this online survey process thing for folks providing references, so no one even talked to anyone.
posted by ersatzkat at 10:31 AM on July 29, 2020
Two followup questions:
(1) How long did you work at your last employer?
(2) What is the norm in your industry around checking with your immediate former employer for references?
If the answer to (1) is less than two years or so, you're home free: your references are your boss + coworkers from two jobs ago, plus whatever coworkers from your most recent job that you are certain will give you a positive reference. 2-ish years is recent enough that no one will bat an eye, and it's very common for people applying for jobs while still employed to avoid listing their current supervisor because (obvi) they don't want their current employer to know they're interviewing.
(2) is trickier. In my industry, I've never heard of anyone calling a previous employer unless it's a reference given by a potential hire. It could be legally thorny, and why would we bother tracking down an unknown person somewhere deep in an org chart? In my wife's industry, it's not uncommon to call the applicant's last boss, because the industry is a small world and everyone knows everyone else. I get the feeling my wife's industry is an outlier, but your mileage may vary.
Regardless, I'm sorry this happened to you, and definitely don't feel the need to take responsibility for what happened. Your boss was a dick who acted in bad faith, and you likely never need to talk to/about him again. Good luck!
posted by Mayor West at 11:42 AM on July 29, 2020
(1) How long did you work at your last employer?
(2) What is the norm in your industry around checking with your immediate former employer for references?
If the answer to (1) is less than two years or so, you're home free: your references are your boss + coworkers from two jobs ago, plus whatever coworkers from your most recent job that you are certain will give you a positive reference. 2-ish years is recent enough that no one will bat an eye, and it's very common for people applying for jobs while still employed to avoid listing their current supervisor because (obvi) they don't want their current employer to know they're interviewing.
(2) is trickier. In my industry, I've never heard of anyone calling a previous employer unless it's a reference given by a potential hire. It could be legally thorny, and why would we bother tracking down an unknown person somewhere deep in an org chart? In my wife's industry, it's not uncommon to call the applicant's last boss, because the industry is a small world and everyone knows everyone else. I get the feeling my wife's industry is an outlier, but your mileage may vary.
Regardless, I'm sorry this happened to you, and definitely don't feel the need to take responsibility for what happened. Your boss was a dick who acted in bad faith, and you likely never need to talk to/about him again. Good luck!
posted by Mayor West at 11:42 AM on July 29, 2020
When I was fired, I solicited a couple of really solid peer references from my former co-workers. The company I was fired from confirmed the dates I'd worked there but no more. Landed a better job a couple months later. Good luck!
posted by kindall at 11:48 AM on July 29, 2020
posted by kindall at 11:48 AM on July 29, 2020
Response by poster: Thank you for the responses everyone! I have been walking around with this in my head for so long it feels good to have some external perspective.
I reached out to a former co-worker and they agreed to be a reference. We had a good working relationship and I am glad I thought to ask them.
Mayor West, to answer your questions:
1) I worked there for four years.
2) I'm not sure, honestly. I have only worked three jobs as an adult. The first one was out of college, the second did not ask for references, and I can't remember if the third (my most recent employer) asked for references or not. I have not worked in a specific industry at each job and this is potential employer is different from my previous employers. It's a little bit more high profile and client facing than my other positions so I'm unsure how in-depth they will want to go. I did already take a skill assessment so if they're worried whether or not I can do certain things it seems reasonable it would have come up during the assessment.
The topic of references has not been discussed but I am trying to get ahead of any potential issues before they arise. If references are requested and I can list my co-worker and my two previous supervisors without raising a red flag I will feel much better about my prospects.
posted by Tevin at 12:19 PM on July 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
I reached out to a former co-worker and they agreed to be a reference. We had a good working relationship and I am glad I thought to ask them.
Mayor West, to answer your questions:
1) I worked there for four years.
2) I'm not sure, honestly. I have only worked three jobs as an adult. The first one was out of college, the second did not ask for references, and I can't remember if the third (my most recent employer) asked for references or not. I have not worked in a specific industry at each job and this is potential employer is different from my previous employers. It's a little bit more high profile and client facing than my other positions so I'm unsure how in-depth they will want to go. I did already take a skill assessment so if they're worried whether or not I can do certain things it seems reasonable it would have come up during the assessment.
The topic of references has not been discussed but I am trying to get ahead of any potential issues before they arise. If references are requested and I can list my co-worker and my two previous supervisors without raising a red flag I will feel much better about my prospects.
posted by Tevin at 12:19 PM on July 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
You should not accept being "fired" instead of "laid off". If they try to claim it, make them prove it to the state; likely they'll give up and the very worst case is you are still classified as fired.
posted by flimflam at 4:33 PM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by flimflam at 4:33 PM on July 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you weren't actually terrible (and it sounds like you weren't), your references aren't going to be bad.
When I do references, which is very rare, I limit my remarks to general opinions (carefully described as opinions, not facts, "hard worker, enthusiastic, etc.") and facts I can prove with documents. Attendance problem, I can say that because I have the time sheets and discipline records.
So this is actually working for you in this case, because, well because they didn't bother to do a PIP or document any REAL problems.
posted by ctmf at 7:14 PM on July 29, 2020
When I do references, which is very rare, I limit my remarks to general opinions (carefully described as opinions, not facts, "hard worker, enthusiastic, etc.") and facts I can prove with documents. Attendance problem, I can say that because I have the time sheets and discipline records.
So this is actually working for you in this case, because, well because they didn't bother to do a PIP or document any REAL problems.
posted by ctmf at 7:14 PM on July 29, 2020
You should not accept being "fired" instead of "laid off". If they try to claim it, make them prove it to the state
(just here for the public service announcement that being fired, even for cause, does not make one ineligible for unemployment. Unemployment is only denied for misconduct, which is a particularly high legal hurdle to reach. It includes actions like accidentally burning down your workplace while you were stoned, not just failing to meet employer expectations. States assume the burden to perform is on employers to hire well, rather than on individual employees to meet arbitrary standards set by their employers. From an unemployment perspective, being "fired" is the same as being "laid off")
posted by saeculorum at 7:18 PM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
(just here for the public service announcement that being fired, even for cause, does not make one ineligible for unemployment. Unemployment is only denied for misconduct, which is a particularly high legal hurdle to reach. It includes actions like accidentally burning down your workplace while you were stoned, not just failing to meet employer expectations. States assume the burden to perform is on employers to hire well, rather than on individual employees to meet arbitrary standards set by their employers. From an unemployment perspective, being "fired" is the same as being "laid off")
posted by saeculorum at 7:18 PM on July 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
Are there any other managers at that company that were not in your direct reporting line, but could attest to the quality of your work?
I left my previous job under similar circumstances - My team was reduced from three people to just me alone while the workload continued to grow at a breakneck pace. When I started to make noises about drowning in work, I was told that I was in fact underperforming. Then I was given a performance improvement plan that was impossible to achieve. I opted to resign instead. When I announced my resignation, managers from two other teams reached out to me to offer references. They knew the leadership of my team was completely out to lunch.
If not, I think you'll find that your potential employer will be very understanding / won't even bat an eye if you don't give a reference from your most recent company. Most people looking for new jobs are doing so because there was some kind of mismatch. And further, everyone has experienced bad management at some point in their career... for some people, most of their career. I found that many companies I talked to in my search for a new job were well aware of my past company's reputation for treating employees terribly, and were not at all surprised that I left suddenly without anything else lined up.
Best of luck, but I think you're going to be fine.
posted by keep it under cover at 9:51 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
I left my previous job under similar circumstances - My team was reduced from three people to just me alone while the workload continued to grow at a breakneck pace. When I started to make noises about drowning in work, I was told that I was in fact underperforming. Then I was given a performance improvement plan that was impossible to achieve. I opted to resign instead. When I announced my resignation, managers from two other teams reached out to me to offer references. They knew the leadership of my team was completely out to lunch.
If not, I think you'll find that your potential employer will be very understanding / won't even bat an eye if you don't give a reference from your most recent company. Most people looking for new jobs are doing so because there was some kind of mismatch. And further, everyone has experienced bad management at some point in their career... for some people, most of their career. I found that many companies I talked to in my search for a new job were well aware of my past company's reputation for treating employees terribly, and were not at all surprised that I left suddenly without anything else lined up.
Best of luck, but I think you're going to be fine.
posted by keep it under cover at 9:51 PM on August 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by HiddenInput at 7:52 AM on July 29, 2020 [7 favorites]