Difference in opinion around ok ways to express hurt and upset
July 23, 2020 1:11 AM   Subscribe

An ongoing difficulty in my relationship with my spouse is that he tends to respond to being upset and hurt by instantly becoming angry towards the other person, namely me. I find this very distressing. Although I try to remain calm and grounded when I am hurt and upset, there are inevitably times when this is difficult and I express this in what I think is a fairly typical way, i.e. crying or having sad body language/facial expressions.

I feel that his way of expressing hurt (becoming angry towards another person) isn't ok as he isn't just feeling pain but on some level, he is choosing to express his pain as anger and direct this destructively at me. He says that my crying and sad body language/facial expression is just as bad because I am 'directing' my upset at him. He has always found it very difficult to deal with me being upset and we end up in a terrible cycle of me being upset > him becoming upset by seeing me upset > him becoming angry at me > me becoming more upset > situation escalating.

I feel that deep down I know that directing anger at another person and simply crying are not equally valid (perhaps not the correct word) ways to express hurt and emotional pain, but I can't seem to convince him that I am not 'directing' my upset at him when I am crying or sad. I feel like I'm being gaslit about this to be honest but try as I might, I can't think this one through. Can anyone please help me find a way to illustrate that becoming angry at another person is on some level a choice in a way that crying/having sad facial expressions or body language simply isn't? Or, conversely, please tell me if you think I'm wrong and why you think so.

Complicating factors: he has CPTSD and DID. Comments from people with experience from this angle particularly welcomed.
posted by rrose selavy to Human Relations (28 answers total) 10 users marked this as a favorite
 
Your interpretations of each other's feelings and motivations seem uncharitable to me, and you each seem to have a double standard where your feelings and expression thereof are righteous, but the other partner's are not. Oof.

I think you both should try to take the most charitable tack when dealing with your significant other. He may genuinely feel angry. Just expressing that is not wrong per se, as long as he is not being abusive. Your feeling sad or crying is also not wrong, as long as it's not done manipulatively. But you both seem to see the other, if your description is accurate, as intentionally doing something *against* the other person. That assumption of ill will is a very ungood thing to have in an intimate relationship.

I wonder if it would help for you each to *genuinely* explore what it feels like to be the other person and to deal with difficulties in the way that they do.
posted by nirblegee at 3:05 AM on July 23, 2020 [2 favorites]


I couldn’t be with someone who gets angry with me on a regular basis, so that’s my bias, and if you feel like you’re being gaslit, you probably are, but it’s hard to say without any examples.
posted by STFUDonnie at 3:31 AM on July 23, 2020 [18 favorites]


I have CPTSD. I do not have DID. I have issues with intense anger and rage and sadness (I am not always able to work through these feelings very well - I was raised in a household where the most commonly demonstrated and acceptable emotion was anger, many times with violence). Sometimes my partner ends up taking the brunt of my messed up emotional state through no real fault of his own. He and I process anger very differently. I do not always do well when he is upset. On the logical level, I understand that oftentimes my emotions and my reactions are not equal to what has happened. Unfortunately, we can find ourselves in a situation similar to the one that you were describing with your spouse. The only thing that I would ask both of you to do is to continue to work on processing and expressing emotions. And I hope that both of you will be able to use a greater level of patience and understanding in communication. I do try to work through a lot of the stuff in therapy, but I know that right now is not the best of times for anyone and certainly for people who are working through everything with mental illness. I wish you both luck and I hope that you both understand it is a work in progress.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:46 AM on July 23, 2020


In unpicking this, it would be helpful to know what you mean when you say "express his pain as anger and direct this destructively at me".

If he's in pain and angry about it, that's one thing; if he's shouting at you or threatening you, that's quite another.

What we feel is not generally something it's possible to control in the moment, but what we do with our feelings absolutely is. If somebody responds to feeling enraged by committing acts of verbal abuse or physical violence against their partner, or by behaving in a manner that threatens violence such as punching holes in walls or breaking furniture or crockery: this is, to my way of thinking, a sign of fundamental disrespect and, if it becomes a pattern, reason enough to walk away from any intimate relationship with that person.

There's a hard bright line between "when you do X, I feel Y because Z" and "now look what you made me do". The former is explanatory and exploratory; the latter is a lazy and contemptible attempt at an excuse for failing to act like an autonomous adult.
posted by flabdablet at 5:04 AM on July 23, 2020 [21 favorites]


You are not sad at him, but he is angry at you. You are not crying at him, but he is yelling at you. Does he believe, at a calm time when he is not feeling angry, that when you cry you are crying AT him?

I realized years ago that all of my negative emotions tended to manifest to me as anger. It made me abrasive. It got better when my partner expressed to me how much that anger hurt to be around, even when it wasn't aimed at him. I started working on it at that point. I also take an antidepressant now, which is such a life improvement in so many ways, but I do think that also helps a lot.

If he thinks that being angry at you for being sad is acceptable--not just in the moment when he can't deal with his emotions, but during calm talks at other times--then you might not be able to get through to him. I would strongly recommend therapy for you, to help you sort out what is workable in your relationship and where you need to draw your boundaries.
posted by gideonfrog at 5:18 AM on July 23, 2020 [4 favorites]


I'm a couple's therapist*, and you left out a crucial detail: what does he do when he gets angry? It's not the getting angry that's a problem, it's as natural for people to become angry as they are to become sad. It's the associated behaviors that make it a "clean" vs "off" expression of normal emotions.

I'd also want to know what you do when you get sad.

Foreshadowing alert: Odds are, he's wrong and you're right, but I need more info to know for sure. It's possible to misuse any emotion in an abusive way.

Other posters have started to tease out some of the elements to consider. Another couple of resources for you: check out whether the two of you are communicating along the lines of a Nonviolent Communication style. Also read some relevant posts at Lisa Merlo Booth's blog, which I read occasionally and has some good material for this type of couple impasse.

*Which doesn't necessarily mean I know what I'm talking about because by definition half of all couple's therapists are below average in competence. However, I gather performance measurement so I know I'm not in that half, thank goodness.
posted by dancing leaves at 5:37 AM on July 23, 2020 [11 favorites]


Chiming in as additional support for digging in to the work it takes to think about feelings and actions differently. It's okay for you to feel sad; it's okay for him to feel angry. Your sad feelings may make you have physical responses (crying) that you can't easily just not do. His angry feelings may make him have physical responses (increased adrenaline) that he can't easily just not have, especially given that he's got complicated mental health history on top of more typical anger responses. Both of you get to express those feelings and physical experiences as long as you do so in ways that are not abusive or manipulative. I can't tell from what you've said here whether he's acting abusively when angry or not, so it's hard to give advice here.

What I can say is that you deserve to feel safe in your relationship, even when you're working through hard things together. If you are not safe in your relationship because he is abusive, then I strongly encourage you to prioritize getting yourself to a safe situation over trying to work through this.

If this isn't a safety issue but more of a "we're making each other miserable and don't want to live this way anymore" issue, you have options. Some good ones are laid out above. In your shoes I think I'd start with trying to separate out the stuff that each of you is working on into different conversations, had when you are *not* in the middle of one of these emotional cycles. You can talk about his anger and how he expresses it and how it makes you feel and what options he might have for dealing with it in other ways *without* letting him make it about your own responses and how they're 'just as bad.' "I agree, we should talk about that too, but I don't want to get into that terrible spiral we always get into, so let's talk about that tomorrow and keep this conversation about what it's about" is valid. And then do actually talk about it tomorrow because it may be that some things about the ways you express your sadness are particularly difficult/triggering for him, and maybe there's some work you could also do there. If that doesn't sound like a conversation you can have together without outside support, then a therapist might be really helpful here.
posted by Stacey at 6:13 AM on July 23, 2020 [5 favorites]


Thank you for the responses so far. To clarify, he usually expresses his anger by shouting at me. I have explained that the shouting makes me feel very upset, to which he usually responds that my crying/upset demeanour makes him feel very upset too and therefore they are in the same category of behaviour. I respond that I’m not able to control this and he responds that he’s not able to control the shouting either. So we seem to be at an impasse here.

Sometimes as a result of this cycle (maybe 40% of the times we argue) things escalate and he starts to insult me and make nasty comments that make me feel humiliated and demeaned. Sometimes (maybe 5% of the times we argue) this can escalate to physically threatening behaviour which makes me feel unsafe (smashing things, starting towards me). I think one of the difficult aspects is that I feel I have now been effectively conditioned to expect and fear the insults, nasty comments and threatening behaviour which means I am *more* likely to get upset when he becomes angry. I know that some of this is abuse and although in the moment he is not able to acknowledge this, he has acknowledged this afterwards. It’s devastating for him to think about this as a survivor of abuse himself. It’s obviously related to him growing up in an environment where shouting, humiliation and violence towards him were the norm. Thanks again for your thoughts.
posted by rrose selavy at 6:39 AM on July 23, 2020 [4 favorites]


In the short term, is it possible for either of you to go outside or to a different room to de-escalate and calm down? In the long term, please take care of yourself and know that you don’t have to accept any of these clearly abusive behaviors.
posted by meijusa at 6:55 AM on July 23, 2020 [11 favorites]


Perhaps your refusing any longer to tolerate the abusive expression of his anger could be the impetus that he needs to learn new ways to master it. If so, you're doing him (as well, obviously, as yourself) a favour by leaving the room (the house, the relationship) at least in the 5% case. Although the 40% case is also more than anyone should ever have to put up with - because a righteous & justified anger need never spill over into humiliation, that's something altogether different & worse than the emotion per se.

Like him, I grew up in a house where this kind of thing happened every day. It takes time & effort & commitment to unlearn it.
posted by rd45 at 7:09 AM on July 23, 2020 [2 favorites]


That is abusive behavior and both of you know it. This is not going to change unless he is in intensive therapy and maybe not even then. Speaking as a survivor of a similar situation, do your future self a favor and get out now before things escalate further and you get drawn so deep into this that leaving becomes even more difficult.
posted by ananci at 7:30 AM on July 23, 2020 [37 favorites]


Okay, yes, that's a very different picture. Half the time you disagree about something, he's becoming abusive. (Insults and humiliation absolutely are abuse, in my book.) That's not a disagreement about argument styles, or a relationship dynamic that you can fix if you just finally the right words to explain something or bring in an outside mediator to help you get over some communication gaps.

With this new information, I don't think you need to have more conversations about it and I do not think you can convince him with just the right argument. I think you should focus on de-escalation - does he at least agree that it's a bad cycle, and could you mutually agree to call a time-out when you get into it? - and on shoring up your reserves (support, savings, a list of domestic violence resources, whatever you would need) to find a safe living situation. This may be behavior he can unlearn with time and intensive work but you do not need to take the brunt of his anger while he does that work.

I'm so sorry, and I hope things get better for you.
posted by Stacey at 7:42 AM on July 23, 2020 [8 favorites]


I was in a marriage like this. I asked my husband once what he felt when he saw me cry (after getting yelled at/blamed/etc) and he said it made him angry to see my tears.

I said, What? How is that possible? I'm crying because I'm hurt. It's not deliberate. It's involuntary. Interpreting it as an attack on you makes no sense.

But it did make sense - to him. He saw it as me one-upping him. He saw my tears as a power play.

He tried therapy. He sometimes had insights. He tried antidepressants. He calmed a little. But at the end of the day he couldn't let go of his need to dominate me. It was hard-wired. Of course it was due to early trauma, but you know what? I had early trauma myself and I didn't take it out on him.

I am so so grateful I was able to extricate myself from that relationship. I died a little bit every day trying to please him.

Please take care of yourself. No one deserves to be a victim of someone else's psychopathy, no matter how hurt the other party is or was in the past.
posted by 6thsense at 7:49 AM on July 23, 2020 [43 favorites]


There's a lot going on here. Who diagnosed CPTSD and DID? A very qualified psychologist or psychiatrist? If not, it's not a useful diagnosis.

You are unable to resolve or even discuss conflict. You get distressed and cry, he yells and often escalates to verbal abuse. Your focus on his feelings is not helping. Look at behaviors. What you describe as sad, hurt, upset sounds like anxiety. His behavior of yelling, challenging, attacking is anger. There may be old trauma behind it, but it's anger.

You're doing a great job of being centered in feelings, but your response has not been effective. You cannot change his feelings. You cannot change his behavior. You cannot change him. Start responding to his behavior instead of perceived emotional state.

If he yells, Tell him to stop. Don't plead or negotiate. Stop yelling.
He keeps yelling. I will not continue this while you are yelling and leave the room.
If he follows, don't engage. If he blames you for his behavior (gaslighting), only engage enough to say, I'll continue the discussion at a later time and walk away. Leave the house if you must.

Ask him to get therapy for anger management. People think expressing anger is kind of healthy; it's not. Expressing anger reinforces the anger. He can learn to recognize the physical experience of anger and change how he responds to it. You can't do this for him.

Anxiety can be managed, too, and learning that will allow you to be happier and more effective in your whole life. You can learn breathing techniques among other things. Many girls are taught to cry. Crying keeps you from speaking, quite literally, and at work, can damage your credibility. 2 accupressure points - pinch and massage the fleshy area between your thumb and index finger. Pinch the bridge of your nose. Learn to speak calmly though crying. Crying is okay, until it's something you can't control.

When you stop engaging in the unhealthy pattern, things will get shaken up. Be cautious and assess his potential for physical abuse, make a safety plan. I hope you have a good therapist. Good luck.
posted by theora55 at 7:57 AM on July 23, 2020 [9 favorites]


This question makes me sad. Marriage should not consist of so much pain. He is creating an abuse survivor just as he was created.
posted by 41swans at 8:11 AM on July 23, 2020 [22 favorites]


I'm someone who gets angry when I perceive that tears are being used as a manipulation tactic. I grew up with someone who used to routinely deflected responsibility for her bullshit by dissolving into tears, and I reflexively hate it now when I see it.

Yet somehow I have never, in my life, verbally or physically attacked or threatened a loved one whether they are crying or not. I process my anger on my own time, and do not vent it on my loved one. Why? Because I'm not an abusive, dominating asshole. My goal in conflict is to resolve it and restore harmony, not to wound and intimidate.

The problem here is his actions, not his feelings.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:18 AM on July 23, 2020 [18 favorites]


The problem here is his actions, not his feelings

and the thing to bear in mind at all times is that you are responsible for neither of those.
posted by flabdablet at 8:30 AM on July 23, 2020 [6 favorites]


Hey there, I was "the angry one" in a DID/multiple system. Still am multiple, just not "the angry one." I grew up in a home where one parent was allowed to just rage and rage and I had a lot to learn.

So...what everyone said above has a lot of truth to it. There probably are Reasons he responds badly to upset and gets angry, and the feelings that he has aren't necessarily wrong or right* but they are just that, feelings.

What he needs to do is not treat you badly, regardless of your feelings. 100%.

For me, I had a really good therapist who challenged me to become a person who treats people the way I believe, morally and ethically, that they should be treated. There really isn't much of a grey area here. If he wants to be a good partner and person, he cannot lash out at you, especially when you are feeling bad. Although the steps to get there are not that simple, it really is that simple. If he can not yell at a customer or a boss, he can not yell at you.

There are lots of ways to do that and if he wants a list of what I did, I am happy to share. Since it's you I'm talking to, I'll share with you what my spouse did for me: He refused to accept bad treatment. He would say "Hey. Don't shout at me." "Hey, slamming doors is really upsetting, please stop that." "Hey, can you go for a walk instead of slamming pots, because we've discussed that bothers me." He held the space. He really shouldn't have had to, but it did help. This only goes if you are not afraid of being physically hurt - that would be a very different situation.

*They actually may be -not wrong, but out of the past, and this goes for either of you...if your feelings are always dictating what happens next, I recommend the following: Good sleep and meals where possible. Exercise that makes you breathe hard/sweat at least 3x a week. Centering exercises. No or limited alcohol. Transitions between stressful situations and home, for example, taking a 4 minute walk around the block between work and home or before getting on transit/in the car. Journalling.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:44 AM on July 23, 2020 [9 favorites]


I too had a partner who just fundamentally believed that all tears were manipulative; he had grown up in a home where this was pretty much true. This:

But it did make sense - to him. He saw it as me one-upping him. He saw my tears as a power play.

Is essentially how he felt also. To his mind if I began crying, it invalidated his anger and his reasons for the anger. It was saying "your anger isn't important anymore, now THIS is the important thing." How we handled it was that when this happened, we made sure not to lose sight of the issue at the core of the argument, so that he didn't feel as keenly that I was somehow trying to "win" by moving the goalposts. It meant we both had to sit with our discomfort a few times, for sure, instead of doing what we most instinctively wanted to do (yell, for him, and go cry alone, for me). Does that make sense?

The difference between our situation and yours was that this dynamic didn't happen often, because I'm not a big cryer in arguments. If it had been a constant thing where we were always triggering each other, I dunno...we probably would have packed it in pretty quickly.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:42 AM on July 23, 2020 [1 favorite]


It sounds like you are trying to do your best to be a good person in a very challenging situation. It also sounds like you have a strong core of inner truth that is speaking to you right now. Here's what you've described about your husband's anger:
- 55% of the time: shouting at you
- 40% of the time: humiliating/demeaning you
- 5% of the time: physically threatening behavior towards your belongings and yourself
- In addition, blames you for his behavior, claiming that your crying -- an expression of fear, sadness, and vulnerability -- provokes his rage.

Just to be clear, and to reinforce what your own gut is telling you (despite his justifications): this is abusive behavior. Humiliating/demeaning one's partner has no place in a healthy relationship. And I'm sure it's become very clear to you that it doesn't take a whole lot of physically threatening behavior infuse the entire situation with fear. Even 5% physically threatening behavior has the effect of making 100% of his rages more terrifying, because you're aware that they might escalate into violence at any point. And just to be clear: you crying or appearing sad does not in any way excuse or justify abusive behavior on his part.

I understand that your husband has had his own struggles, that you care about him (even as you are trying to take care of yourself), and that you are doing your best to be empathetic and open to his point of view. Based on what you've described, it sounds like his point of view is too distorted and unhealthy to be useful to either of you right now. He is not thinking clearly, and his perspective is not reliable at this time. If you try to empathize, understand, or enter into a logical argument with his point of view, you will only get pulled into that distortion. Because you are the focus of much of his unhealthy, distorted thinking, it is unlikely that you will be able to help him with it at the moment. This is a time to put on your own oxygen mask.

What may be most helpful to you right now is to find a safe, objective source of perspective and support outside of this relationship. If you can safely do so, finding an individual therapist for yourself (not a couples therapist -- they are often ineffective or harmful in situations of abuse) would likely give you a lot of the support you need. If that is not an option right now, you can try the National Domestic Violence Hotline or local abuse and domestic violence resources. I know it can be easy to think that your situation doesn't rise to the level of deserving/needing these resources, but I can assure you it does -- and checking out their website and resources on abuse might help reinforce that understanding. If you have supportive friends or family, now may also be a time to reach out -- you don't necessarily have to share everything about this situation if you don't want to, but it may just be helpful for you to spend time with them and remind yourself what a supportive and loving relationship feels like.

Here's a resource that may be useful to you: a Power and Control Wheel that shows a wide variety of abusive behaviors. Check out the top right quadrant (Using Intimidation and Using Emotional Abuse) -- do those feel familiar to you? A situation doesn't need to include all the behaviors in this wheel in order to be abusive; any one of these tactics is abusive, and they often escalate.

When I hear you stating things like the following...
- "I feel that deep down I know that directing anger at another person and simply crying are not equally valid (perhaps not the correct word) ways to express hurt and emotional pain."
- "I know that some of this is abuse"
...I can see that you are able to perceive this situation with clarity, even despite the fact that he is actively trying to recruit you into his distorted thinking. This situation is serious, unsustainable, and likely to escalate. It is worth taking as much action as you can, as soon as you can, to find yourself support in figuring out your next steps. The actions that you take to care for yourself are actually good for both of you in the long run; it does not benefit either of you for this abusive behavior to escalate.

Best of luck to both of you.
posted by ourobouros at 9:42 AM on July 23, 2020 [16 favorites]


I got to the part where you said he shouted at you and was like fuuuuuuuuck noooooo - and that was before I read about the humiliation, insults, and physical threats. It truly doesn't matter if he will or will not acknowledge his behavior as abuse, and it doesn't matter if him being abusive makes him have a sad - this is abusive behavior and you do not deserve that, full stop.

You ask for ways to explain to him that his abusive behavior is not the same as your crying, but I don't know that this is a fruitful avenue to pursue. You two have already talked about this multiple times, and you say he has acknowledged he's abusing you after the fact. If he recognizes that he's abused you - even ONCE - and continues to stick to a bullshit "both sides" argument rather than moving heaven and hell to make sure he never abuses you again, there truly are no magical words you could use that will make him suddenly see the light.

I'd suggest focusing on yourself instead - what would help you get to a place where you truly believe, and act on the belief, that you cannot and will not be shouted at? That insults and threats are 100% unacceptable? This might be individual (not couples!) therapy, or perhaps seeking out a NAMI chapter, or whatever else is a good fit for you - but the bottom line is that you can and should do whatever you need to do in order to protect and care for yourself. Having an internal conviction that you deserve to be treated with respect at all times would be a great start.
posted by DingoMutt at 10:36 AM on July 23, 2020 [3 favorites]


Thanks again. Yes the CPTSD and DID has been formally diagnosed.

We are planning on starting couples therapy soon but I think (thanks to the resources given here) that we will focus on communication styles and I will discuss with him that the abusive behaviour is not on the table for therapy sessions as it’s not something we can be mediated to “come to an agreement” about.

He is not a dominating person generally (which is where the DID comes into play) and we have a very equal relationship in all other respects - he is not controlling in any way. This problem only arises during arguments when he perceives to be attacked and this particular alter fronts to the defence. Unfortunately me leaving the situation can often makes things worse which is where I hope a therapist might be able to help us figure out something which gives me space but also doesn’t make him feel abandoned and more desperate.
posted by rrose selavy at 11:28 AM on July 23, 2020


Please do not go into couples therapy with a partner who is abusive (which yours is). It very often does not go well. The abuser will learn things that can be used to further the abuse.
Please please don't do this.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:39 PM on July 23, 2020 [19 favorites]


To clarify, he usually expresses his anger by shouting at me.

This is 100% absolutely never okay IN ANY RELATIONSHIP.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:08 AM on July 24, 2020 [6 favorites]


Unfortunately me leaving the situation can often makes things worse which is where I hope a therapist might be able to help us figure out something which gives me space but also doesn’t make him feel abandoned and more desperate.

Again, though, this is not something that you can come to an agreement about. He needs to manage his feelings while allowing you the full range of human freedom. You should be able to come and go as you please without being subject to abusive behavior. You should be able to particularly leave when he is behaving in an abusive way. He needs to be able to integrate and manage feelings of abandonment and desperation without controlling you. Externalizing this onto you and making it your responsibility will not improve the situation because it won't fix the underlying problem.

I wish you the best of luck, but I warn you to stay incredibly firm when it comes to your boundaries on this. It is okay to be compassionate, but it is not okay to limit your reasonable reactions or your personal desire to be safe. That is not acceptable and it will not help him in the long run.
posted by Rock 'em Sock 'em at 9:08 AM on July 24, 2020 [7 favorites]


Honestly, couples therapy when he or any part of his system is unable to control anger towards you is a mistake. That needs to be an individual therapy priority and once he is able to control that, feels responsible for it, and takes it completely on board as his issue, then you can consider couples therapy.
posted by Rock 'em Sock 'em at 9:10 AM on July 24, 2020 [5 favorites]


I respond that I’m not able to control this and he responds that he’s not able to control the shouting either. So we seem to be at an impasse here.
...
Sometimes (maybe 5% of the times we argue) this can escalate to physically threatening behaviour which makes me feel unsafe (smashing things, starting towards me).


Is he able to control the smashing things? If he's not, what is there to keep him from doing the same thing to you?

If he is able to control whether he smashes things or is otherwise doing physically threatening behaviors, he's choosing to do these things. Consider that.

Note that these are more questions for you yourself to consider, not to necessarily ask him.

If he's not safe to be around, and you are in danger of being harmed, his mental health issues don't negate that danger to your safety, and it doesn't make you a bad person to prioritize your physical safety. Even if he's great the rest of the time and his other alters don't behave this way towards you, how do they feel about the possibility of you being physically harmed in these out of control incidents? Maybe it would be best for you to live elsewhere while he works on this.
posted by yohko at 2:15 PM on July 24, 2020


Would you, in the same emotional circumstances, also look sad and cry if you were alone? There's a good chance that you would.
Would he, in the same emotional circumstances, also shout, make nasty comments and smash things if he were alone? Probably not.

One of these things is not like the other.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:28 PM on July 24, 2020 [1 favorite]


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