move to Hong Kong?
July 19, 2020 7:57 PM Subscribe
For HK Mefites: I may be on the verge of a job offer from Hong Kong. Is this (the next 6-8 months) the worst possible time to move there, from a socio-political perspective? Or no worse than a move to anywhere else in pandemica? I know you do not have a crystal ball, and I do have friends there who can weigh in, but thought i’d also try the blue. thanks! (deets below the fold)
job: public sector (no health care top-up, but good salary and pension plan)
me: no Cantonese, single middle-aged woman with about 3 friends there of whom 2 are ex-pats, love travel but prefer to work and get to know a place rather than be a tourist, previously lived abroad for a decade+ but only in Western Europe
caveat: i am aware that quarantine will complicate the move, but prospective employer is taking it into account
job: public sector (no health care top-up, but good salary and pension plan)
me: no Cantonese, single middle-aged woman with about 3 friends there of whom 2 are ex-pats, love travel but prefer to work and get to know a place rather than be a tourist, previously lived abroad for a decade+ but only in Western Europe
caveat: i am aware that quarantine will complicate the move, but prospective employer is taking it into account
Assuming you're an American, and would be travelling on a US passport, this is what the US State Department advises:
In May 2020, the People’s Republic of China (PRC) National People’s Congress announced its intention to unilaterally and arbitrarily impose national security legislation on Hong Kong that could fundamentally alter its autonomy and freedoms. As a result of this action by the PRC, U.S. citizens traveling or residing in Hong Kong may be subject to increased levels of surveillance, as well as arbitrary enforcement of laws and detention for purposes other than maintaining law and order.The new laws allow for deportation to the mainland to be prosecuted under PRC laws, including for things you may have done while outside China/HK. My own country's travel advisory goes even further and advises against all travel:
The full extent of the law and how it will be applied is not yet clear. You may be at increased risk of detention on vaguely defined national security grounds. You could break the law without intending to.posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:26 PM on July 19, 2020 [5 favorites]
Hi, I live here. Do not move here.
We are only sort of managing the pandemic - we've had hundreds of new cases in the last few weeks. The city is very polluted, very small, very expensive, and currently you can't just pop over to Taiwan or Thailand for a long weekend without a 14-day quarantine on your return, making vacations functionally impossible. We don't really have rural countryside to escape to, after all.
Have you ever lived in an unfree society? If not, prepare for the possibility of:
- never trusting whether your partner or friends or employers (or students, if you're a teacher) are listening to what you say about politics, so you just stop talking about (and then thinking about) certain topics
- human rights being not constitutionally guaranteed, but based on what our justice system decides they are - and the resulting behaviour you can expect from the police
- an end to your ability to enter or leave the city if the government decides you just...don't get to be here, or leave
- whatever rights are accorded to Hong Kongers in the Basic Law, our constitution, being taken away because the new law overrides it - we have warrantless searches of people's homes now, for example, which we didn't just a few months ago
- the risk of extradition to a society with the death penalty, as a result of a closed trial with no jury or press
The security law will be applied however the government wants it to be applied. Do not think about it like a law that can be litigated and overturned; think about it like a new constitution. And your non-Chinese-speaking status will not protect you - the blank signs people are holding up and being arrested under the new law for are not, after all, in any language.
I'm sorry.
posted by mdonley at 9:10 PM on July 19, 2020 [54 favorites]
We are only sort of managing the pandemic - we've had hundreds of new cases in the last few weeks. The city is very polluted, very small, very expensive, and currently you can't just pop over to Taiwan or Thailand for a long weekend without a 14-day quarantine on your return, making vacations functionally impossible. We don't really have rural countryside to escape to, after all.
Have you ever lived in an unfree society? If not, prepare for the possibility of:
- never trusting whether your partner or friends or employers (or students, if you're a teacher) are listening to what you say about politics, so you just stop talking about (and then thinking about) certain topics
- human rights being not constitutionally guaranteed, but based on what our justice system decides they are - and the resulting behaviour you can expect from the police
- an end to your ability to enter or leave the city if the government decides you just...don't get to be here, or leave
- whatever rights are accorded to Hong Kongers in the Basic Law, our constitution, being taken away because the new law overrides it - we have warrantless searches of people's homes now, for example, which we didn't just a few months ago
- the risk of extradition to a society with the death penalty, as a result of a closed trial with no jury or press
The security law will be applied however the government wants it to be applied. Do not think about it like a law that can be litigated and overturned; think about it like a new constitution. And your non-Chinese-speaking status will not protect you - the blank signs people are holding up and being arrested under the new law for are not, after all, in any language.
I'm sorry.
posted by mdonley at 9:10 PM on July 19, 2020 [54 favorites]
Let me put it this way - I live in Australia and am an Australian citizen.
For me to take on work in HK, I would want my employer to provide in writing the details of how I would be able to leave HK on short notice with a cost limit on the cost of departure, and the cost limit of medical expenses I would be expected to bear in the case of accident or illness. AND be paid mega-multiples of what I earn here.
AND I would ask for the same if I was going to the US.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:42 AM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
For me to take on work in HK, I would want my employer to provide in writing the details of how I would be able to leave HK on short notice with a cost limit on the cost of departure, and the cost limit of medical expenses I would be expected to bear in the case of accident or illness. AND be paid mega-multiples of what I earn here.
AND I would ask for the same if I was going to the US.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:42 AM on July 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
The difference being that I would not reference HK if I was going to the US.
For now.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:43 AM on July 20, 2020
For now.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 4:43 AM on July 20, 2020
Does public sector = government?
As mdonley said, the new NSL poses significant risk to anyone who is within the reach of the HKGov and Chinese authorities, and effectively dismantles the rule of law the city had until a few months ago. However, I think the actual risk depends on the degree of interest/outspokenness you have about local political issues. For many apolitical/insulated expats who don't plan to go on demonstrations or comment on social media about Chinese politics, I believe there may be relatively little change in their day-to-day lives. (Similar to the expat populations in large Chinese cities like Shanghai and Beijing - as long as you stay out of local affairs and what's considered "sensitive" to the CCP, you are mostly unmolested.) The protests, which did have a big impact on residents' commutes and experience on the streets, are probably going to be muted as long as the coronavirus continues.
Obvious caveat - things have changed *drastically* in HK in the last 12 months, so they may change again quickly. However with the international momentum building against China I believe in the short-mid-term they will not be aggressively going after foreign expats who are not involved in the democracy movement, as that will hugely destabilise HK's financial role and value for them - they will target the NSL at the key leaders and protesters.
(Source: I am a HKer abroad involved in overseas organising and in touch with local activists.)
Edit: I just realised you may be in academia/research - there will be HUGE impacts to academic freedom and what you can/cannot research, especially if you are in the humanities or social sciences.
posted by monocot at 9:34 AM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
As mdonley said, the new NSL poses significant risk to anyone who is within the reach of the HKGov and Chinese authorities, and effectively dismantles the rule of law the city had until a few months ago. However, I think the actual risk depends on the degree of interest/outspokenness you have about local political issues. For many apolitical/insulated expats who don't plan to go on demonstrations or comment on social media about Chinese politics, I believe there may be relatively little change in their day-to-day lives. (Similar to the expat populations in large Chinese cities like Shanghai and Beijing - as long as you stay out of local affairs and what's considered "sensitive" to the CCP, you are mostly unmolested.) The protests, which did have a big impact on residents' commutes and experience on the streets, are probably going to be muted as long as the coronavirus continues.
Obvious caveat - things have changed *drastically* in HK in the last 12 months, so they may change again quickly. However with the international momentum building against China I believe in the short-mid-term they will not be aggressively going after foreign expats who are not involved in the democracy movement, as that will hugely destabilise HK's financial role and value for them - they will target the NSL at the key leaders and protesters.
(Source: I am a HKer abroad involved in overseas organising and in touch with local activists.)
Edit: I just realised you may be in academia/research - there will be HUGE impacts to academic freedom and what you can/cannot research, especially if you are in the humanities or social sciences.
posted by monocot at 9:34 AM on July 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's been ten days since your question. Here's how the law has been discussed (and used) so far. All my links are from the public broadcaster, RTHK.
- Today, four students between ages 16 and 21 were arrested under the law for "organising and inciting secessionist activities" by allegedly making social media posts on certain topics after July 1. For the first time ever, the police press conference about the arrest did not admit journalists whose credentials were not registered with the Information Services Department. Quote from the article:
Asked whether outsiders who had responded to these allegedly secessionists posts could also face arrest, Li said it depends on whether they had participated in secessionist activities or incited others to do so.
“Just browsing… I don’t think it’s a problem,” he said.
- Yesterday, professor Benny Tai, a noted pro-democracy activist, lost his job at Hong Kong University for what he believes are entirely political reasons. This comes a few days after Shiu Ka-chun, another pro-democracy activist, didn't have his teaching contract renewed at Baptist University.
- The arrest of the students comes only three days after Ho Lok-sang, an academic who often takes the stance that Beijing's policies are designed to benefit the city, said we should take a "wait and see" approach to the law - but in the same article said that pro-democracy legislators winning a majority in the LegCo would be part of a plan to destroy the city. Here is what he means by "plan":
He said this camp's strategy was proposed by Occupy founder Benny Tai, "who has a plan to force the revolution upon Beijing".
He said under the plan, pan-democrats aimed to win more than half the seats in the coming Legislative Council elections, and then they would vote against the budget and block funding requests, "forcing the government to shut down".
"The government will be expected to dismiss the Legco and call another election. The revolutionary camp will again win more than half of the Legco seats, forcing the Chief Executive to resign," he said.
He said Tai expected Beijing to intervene to "establish a provisional Legco, appoint a new Chief Executive, and arrest political leaders in the pan-democrat camp".
"This will then provoke major social unrest and strikes, paralysing the economy. That will force a 'bloody crackdown' which will in turn lead to extreme sanctions on the Chinese Communist Party from various nations. Professor Tai looks forward to this scenario," Ho said.
- The police are claiming that the national security law will help them clamp down on violent crime and that not being able to see people's faces is preventing them from accurately identifying suspects.
- There is a rumour that the elections in September might be delayed for up to a year.
- New Zealand has suspended its extradition treaty with Hong Kong - this is after the US, UK and Australia had already done so.
- Today the European Union has banned the export of technology to Hong Kong that can be used for "internal repression, the interception of internal communications or cyber-surveillance".
Ten days since your question, and less than a month after the law entered into force.
posted by mdonley at 9:15 AM on July 29, 2020
- Today, four students between ages 16 and 21 were arrested under the law for "organising and inciting secessionist activities" by allegedly making social media posts on certain topics after July 1. For the first time ever, the police press conference about the arrest did not admit journalists whose credentials were not registered with the Information Services Department. Quote from the article:
Asked whether outsiders who had responded to these allegedly secessionists posts could also face arrest, Li said it depends on whether they had participated in secessionist activities or incited others to do so.
“Just browsing… I don’t think it’s a problem,” he said.
- Yesterday, professor Benny Tai, a noted pro-democracy activist, lost his job at Hong Kong University for what he believes are entirely political reasons. This comes a few days after Shiu Ka-chun, another pro-democracy activist, didn't have his teaching contract renewed at Baptist University.
- The arrest of the students comes only three days after Ho Lok-sang, an academic who often takes the stance that Beijing's policies are designed to benefit the city, said we should take a "wait and see" approach to the law - but in the same article said that pro-democracy legislators winning a majority in the LegCo would be part of a plan to destroy the city. Here is what he means by "plan":
He said this camp's strategy was proposed by Occupy founder Benny Tai, "who has a plan to force the revolution upon Beijing".
He said under the plan, pan-democrats aimed to win more than half the seats in the coming Legislative Council elections, and then they would vote against the budget and block funding requests, "forcing the government to shut down".
"The government will be expected to dismiss the Legco and call another election. The revolutionary camp will again win more than half of the Legco seats, forcing the Chief Executive to resign," he said.
He said Tai expected Beijing to intervene to "establish a provisional Legco, appoint a new Chief Executive, and arrest political leaders in the pan-democrat camp".
"This will then provoke major social unrest and strikes, paralysing the economy. That will force a 'bloody crackdown' which will in turn lead to extreme sanctions on the Chinese Communist Party from various nations. Professor Tai looks forward to this scenario," Ho said.
- The police are claiming that the national security law will help them clamp down on violent crime and that not being able to see people's faces is preventing them from accurately identifying suspects.
- There is a rumour that the elections in September might be delayed for up to a year.
- New Zealand has suspended its extradition treaty with Hong Kong - this is after the US, UK and Australia had already done so.
- Today the European Union has banned the export of technology to Hong Kong that can be used for "internal repression, the interception of internal communications or cyber-surveillance".
Ten days since your question, and less than a month after the law entered into force.
posted by mdonley at 9:15 AM on July 29, 2020
« Older Elderly person rear-ended my parked car. Halp. | Best way to fit metal nose piece on masks? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by spitbull at 8:24 PM on July 19, 2020 [17 favorites]