Building boundaries over $8.50. Also jail.
July 18, 2020 9:47 AM   Subscribe

A relative is asking if I can pay $8.50 in court fees to avoid a warrant being issued for his arrest. I can afford this. How could I say yes without getting overly involved in his affairs? Also he might be wrong about the warrant. Or the amount.

I have an incredibly distant relative who has been in legal trouble for most of his life. He's lied about charges in the past and has stolen and otherwise caused money problems for closer relatives. I'm one of the only family members still speaking to him, and while he seems to have a lot of friends, they all seem to have a bit of an agenda and I'm not surprised that apparently no one else is willing to help out in this situation.

Long story short he says he needs $8.50 in court fees paid against a payment plan to prevent a warrant from being issued. I could pay this online directly to the court, and looking at the website I can already see that various charges are overdue.

He's currently in jail over a charge that, based on public information, I expect will be dropped this week (it's one of those "civil matter" things the police wanted a court to sort out, but public records show that this charge cannot apply to my relative) and he is concerned that missing the payment plan will lead him to being in jail for a lot longer after this charge gets sorted out.

I can afford $8.50. I could afford $85 without really thinking about it. I know the saying that "if it's important they'll figure it out" but I cannot emphasize enough how much I will not miss eight dollars.

I checked the online system but it shows that the plan is actually $17, and that there's a second fee of $500 past due without a payment plan. So I think my relative is a little confused over what's due. Or over how warrants are issued for these fees?

I'm hung up on the fact that 1) I've been lied to before by this person and do not want to get overly involved in other legal issues, 2) they've had major issues with mishandling their own money in the past, and 3) my relative is going to be without income for a long time for all sorts of reasons so I'm not really sure what's going to happen next time the payment plan is due. I feel foolish waffling over eight bucks, especially if this can help them get back to normal life, but I don't think I'd want to offer $8 only to find myself being asked $500+.

I want to stay in touch but would prefer to not be their go-to solution for problem solving. On the other hand I've been reading a lot of prison abolition material lately and chronically unemployed people being arrested over court fees is not my idea how the world should be operating. But again, it's hard to tell if that's even what might happen here.

In summary, my relative thinks he needs a few bucks to get out of jail faster. If I help out now, what's the script for next time? How do I figure out what my line is here? Do I need a line?
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug to Human Relations (30 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
You know. There's no perfect answer here. And paying the fine online... the $17 in this case...seems like a thing to just do and then don't worry about a slippery slope for now. Just do it. You'll feel so weird if you don't.

Then you can think about whether there is other help you can arrange for your relative that doesn't involve money. Do they have an advocate? Is there someone assigned to him like a caseworker you can talk to to see if you can get another perspective on this relative's situation?

But, just pay it, directly to the system. Then see if you can find out more, if you're willing to help more but don't worry about this sum of money.
posted by amanda at 9:57 AM on July 18, 2020 [16 favorites]


I would seriously examine whether your general sense of justice/way the world should operate is clouding your judgement here. I know you said you want to keep in touch but I would seriously consider whether this relationship is worth it. I think you should trust your instincts, you are "waffling over $8" for a reason, it's not foolish at all. What I am hearing is that part of your mind is telling you that you are being manipulated by a toxic individual, that lies and takes and hurts others. Sounds like others have cut them off for a reason, and it sounds like you are an empathetic person, and unfortunately that makes you a target for people like this. I would trust that part of you that is saying that this will lead to more bad things/manipulation/suffering on your part.
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 10:04 AM on July 18, 2020 [14 favorites]


Big Nope. That's how the grooming starts, with one tiny little favour that seems like an effortless kindness. You're already being lied to about how much is owed and you can already see what the next ask will be.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:08 AM on July 18, 2020 [19 favorites]


At this point, the odds are that he has some form of mental illness preventing him from dealing with life at even a basic level. I'd pay the 17, because jail is unlikely to be a learning experience in any good way, also, Covid. Kind of like giving money to streetfolk; it isn't a real solution, but it is an immediate solution. Let him know, and limit further contact. You have to decide if you want to invest $500 in keeping him out of further jail. It's okay to feel that it's an unreasonable ask.
posted by theora55 at 10:10 AM on July 18, 2020 [20 favorites]


Maybe I'm a horrible person, and maybe I'm thinking about my experiences with some people I've known, but this would be a huge NO for me. Once this door opens it will never, ever, end.
posted by ralan at 10:11 AM on July 18, 2020 [12 favorites]


Man, this is a lousy situation. My inclination, which also seems to be yours, is to pay the trivial amount of money simply because it’s trivial. But I also can see how that would be problematic. On the other hand, if your relative can’t afford $8, how is he paying for food or housing? But whatevs, it’s $8.

I would see if there’s someone besides your relative you could talk to about his troubles. I’m guessing he probably doesn’t have a lawyer, but maybe a public defender? Someone in the clerk of courts’ office? Clarify what’s actually due and what consequences are for not paying. That may allow you to have an actual conversation with him. Who knows if he’ll listen to you, but that’s the best place to start. You can’t help unless you know more than he does.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:14 AM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]


I think if it were actually going to be solvable with an $8 (or $17, whatever) payment, he would have solved it himself by now.

I totally TOTALLY understand feeling like saying no to this tiny request is heartless and petty. But I also think the reason you are hesitating is because you know in your heart that it won't end there, and you don't want to be the person he calls for $500, or crash space, or whatever the next thing is.

I think "sorry Phil, I really can't get involved with your court stuff" is probably the safest refrain, for this and all requests.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:19 AM on July 18, 2020 [16 favorites]


If you are good with setting and enforcing boundaries, the worst case is that you'll have to do more of that in the future. If you are instead the sort who can be cajoled into being a constant source of funds or other support if this door is opened, it's a bad idea.

It isn't at all uncommon for warrants to issue over completely petty amounts of money, and if he's actually in jail, I wouldn't be surprised if he can't get it any other way.
posted by wierdo at 10:21 AM on July 18, 2020 [9 favorites]


I don't think paying $17 now is going to make it harder to say no if you're asked to pay $500 next. That no will be an easier one than saying no to this request, because he knows you can probably afford $17 but will surely not be surprised if you say you don't have $500 to spare.

Paying $17 now will make it harder to say no if next month another $8.50 or $17 is due and you get asked to pay that. I guess you need to decide whether that's a small enough amount that you'd be okay paying it repeatedly for an indefinite number of months or if there's a maximum total amount you'd be comfortable paying over time. If there is a maximum, then I think your script when that maximum is reached is something like, "I'm sorry but I can't keep making your payments every month. I could manage doing it a couple of times but if I keep doing it every month it will start adding up to more than I can afford."
posted by Redstart at 10:25 AM on July 18, 2020 [9 favorites]


I want to tell you that court is confusing. I have a Masters degree, and as a social worker I've sat in court with people just basically as support over stuff, big things and little things. It moves fast, it requires attention, it uses large vocabulary and it's also so incredibly boring but so high stakes. This is true for native English speakers and doubles sometimes triples for non English speakers. Judges of courts just want any type of singaling of remote understanding, and everyone just wants out of it so it leads to lots of things that just... The person walks out and it's just been five minutes and that they are already getting details wrong. And court paperwork is also hard to read. It's tiny print, requires literacy and a understanding of complex processes and that things connect to eachother.

This doesn't mean you should help. But if it doesn't matter to you, just pay the 17 dollars.

You can always ask the court and ask if a payment would put you on the hook for more, somehow. You can also say no in the future.

I also think that you think that the system may be fair to him, and that's... Just not necessarily true? But ultimately it is up to you. You don't owe him, but my bet is in alot of ways he's extra vulnerable to administrative mishaps working against him.

If possible, probably the best thing you could do for him is connecting him with a nonprofit organization that provides help to people like him. Having court costs regardless of health status or ability to pay is a thing this country does to people without remorse or even a second thought.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:26 AM on July 18, 2020 [32 favorites]


If this person is important to you, and he is in jail, with the current pandemic, i would even think about paying the 500.
posted by PinkMoose at 10:28 AM on July 18, 2020 [19 favorites]


Can you pay anonymously (in your relative’s eyes, not the court’s) and not confirm or deny you did it? That way you help them out if this small fee is really insurmountable for them, without getting reeled in. And if they are honestly confused, they might not realize anyone paid.
posted by michaelh at 10:45 AM on July 18, 2020 [7 favorites]


When someone is like this, you are not going to be able to "fix them", that is beyond your control. So you have to ask what can and should you do to help them short term. I would also feel weird about it, but spending a small amount of money to help someone avoid emotional harm while they are in jail and already vulnerable is almost always good. Yes, you won't be fixing their long term problems, but you will definitely be helping their anxiety even if they are wrong with their legal opinion, and if they are right you might be avoiding a lot of future harm. I would pay this if I could afford to and was asked, but I would probably not contribute any more

Given the issues so far, and that you are already interacting with this person, even if you don't pay $17 they are likely to ask you for help with the $500 in the future. Paying them $17 now does NOT mean you are legally, morally, or socially on the hook for more later. They may try to guilt you into it but you can deal with that if it comes up
posted by JZig at 10:47 AM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]


You can decide not to help them in future just like you can decide not help them now. I would just pay the fees because this country's justice system is a nightmare that no one deserves, no matter how sleazy or annoying they are, anyone who's involved has or will be failed by society. Part of being someone's friend means being their go-to problem solver. *We* are the only thing any of us have. If you don't want to be their friend, don't pay this or any other future request. If you do consider them your friend, help them when they need it. That's it.
posted by bleep at 11:20 AM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]


I would look into it and make sure I knew exactly what amount of money it would take to be actually helpful in this scenario. If that amount is actually $17, not $8.50, or it were some other sum that was affordable for me and that I was willing to pay, but there were some larger need on the horizon that I wasn't willing to pay, then I would be very clear with my relative that "I will pay X, but you'll have to pay Y by some other means."

In this way you can rest assured that whatever money you spent on this was not wasted, that you have fulfilled a modest and definite need of theirs, but at the same time you've also been clear about your boundaries and made sure that they understand that they have a greater need on the horizon that they need to plan for, which can help them achieve clarity on what they face and what they are responsible for.
posted by orange swan at 11:30 AM on July 18, 2020 [4 favorites]


They have lied to you in the past (as well as other relatives you know about), they have stolen from other relatives, and caused money problems for other relatives.

No. This is not behaviour you can support and giving into the little ask means they will mark you as a soft touch. I don’t know if addiction is involved, but it sounds like the same black hole of want, want, want. Yes the court system is unfair, and jail sucks, but it sounds like if they were not in jail more relatives (and strangers) would have had things stolen. They aren’t going to want to change their behaviour as long as someone is willing to keep bailing them out.

It sucks, I have a relative like this too and it pulls at my co-dependent heartstrings to have to say no. But since saying no I get a lot fewer asks. Maybe make a donation to a group that works with people trying to get back on track and direct your relative to contact the organization if they want to change
posted by saucysault at 11:32 AM on July 18, 2020 [5 favorites]


We're talking about two payments of $8.50 or $17 here. I would pay it. I would also make sure that you are capable of saying "no" at some point in the future. Tell him the $17 is a loan. At least he will then "owe" you. You can tell him no in the future bc he never paid you back the $17.

Either you have the internal fortitude to say "no" in the future or you don't. Paying this $17 is not going to change that.
posted by AugustWest at 11:49 AM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]


I would loan him $8.50 and make clear that you only allow people to have one outstanding loan at a time. Presuming he actually pays you back you might even consider making the larger loan he is sure to ask for, but going forward with a policy of one loan outstanding you can feel you've helped him some while sharply limiting your overall involvement.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:52 AM on July 18, 2020 [6 favorites]


I am a bastard, but I'd pay it while also raking him over the coals over the lies. I mean, actually require him to say out loud that he lied, why he lied, admit it was wrong and confirm that he will not do it again, all in a tone of voice I found convincing. Very repetitive, like lecturing a child.

If he can't do that, no money regardless of how small. If he tries to say it was just a little lie then we go back to step one and her starts over admitting the lie, etc.

This way I'd demonstrate that I can help, but that I am also a hardass who cannot be taken for granted or manipulated.

And then, if he lies about anything ever again he's cut off without a backward glance.

I am, however, a hardass who can (and has) cut off people forever and who cannot be convinced to change my mind on them once they failed that last time.
posted by aramaic at 12:20 PM on July 18, 2020 [3 favorites]


I'd say the following:

"Hey, I looked at the court website. It said you owed $17 but also that you owed $500. I paid the $17, but heads up that won't be able to help with any part of the $500. All right, I wish you good luck with it, okay?"

That staves the wolf $17 from the door today, while pre-loading your future "no" to future entanglements.
posted by hungrytiger at 1:09 PM on July 18, 2020 [24 favorites]


"Hey, I looked at the court website. It said you owed $17 but also that you owed $500. I paid the $17, but heads up that won't be able to help with any part of the $500. All right, I wish you good luck with it, okay?"

This is the correct answer, unless you can pay the whole 500. The moral math on keeping someone out of jail during a pandemic adds up to more than $8.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:04 PM on July 18, 2020


The people saying "nope" and "this is how grooming starts" have likely never been in jail or had a family member in jail.

If you do some reading on bail bonds, there are plenty of people who cannot do a $8 payment to get themselves out of jail.

How are you going to feel if your family member ends up stuck in jail for months? Or if they contract covid? Are you going to be glad that you "didn't get groomed" and that you saved yourself $8 because "this is how it starts"? Or will you be haunted by your conscience?
posted by cheesecake at 4:14 PM on July 18, 2020 [6 favorites]


Tell him you're sorry, you can't cover it.

Then pay it. He may guess you paid it, or he may guess this is a bank error in his favor - either way, you have plausible deniability and you paid it.

If he asks again say "I'm sorry, I told you last time I couldn't cover it. I can't help this time either".
posted by arnicae at 4:20 PM on July 18, 2020 [6 favorites]


I have an incredibly distant relative

This is the key point. If you're that far down this guy's list and nobody above you on that list is willing to front this guy less than ten bucks to keep him out of jail you should take that as a strong signal that you should not under any circumstances front this guy any money at all.

If a "distant relative" called me asking for ten bucks to get out of jail, I would wonder how many bridges they'd so thoroughly burned that nobody else in their life could be bothered to shake out the couch for them. And then I'd probably hang up.
posted by mhoye at 7:13 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]


Well the 8.50 is half of the 17, maybe he was trying to hit you up from jail before that fee doubled (thinking that it might cause a warrant instead). Not sure about being in jail, but I'd guess he can't actually pay it even if he does have the money because he's in jail. I'd probably pay the 17 and tell him no more money for his court things. Though I'm a bit surprised that 8.50 or 17 or even 500 would be a warrant
posted by zengargoyle at 7:34 PM on July 18, 2020


Response by poster: If you're that far down this guy's list

I can see how my wording would be confusing. We actually talk every few weeks, he didn't just call me out of the blue asking for money.

I also think that you think that the system may be fair to him,
The opposite, really. And that's not even looking at how COVID lockdowns started right when they got out of prison and the housing situation they worked for months to get fell through. He's made bad choices but also has been shortchanged on a lot.

Anyway I'm incredibly amused that the hive mind is just as conflicted as my own thoughts are. I'm kicking thingy around for a bit until we talk tomorrow evening but I really appreciate all the different perspectives and thoughts in the meantime. I'll update later with what I decide to do.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:39 PM on July 18, 2020 [1 favorite]


Can you pay $350? Fifty for the payment plan and the rest for a social worker type to define a financial plan with him, and confirm what your boundries are going forward.
posted by Sophont at 9:36 PM on July 18, 2020 [2 favorites]


I will preface this by saying that I am wildly soft-hearted, so ymmv, but.. I would pay it. I'd pay whatever fine(s) I could afford and make clear that I can't help further. And yes, definitely pay it directly to the appropriate authority(s) and not to his hands (unless you're okay with it not being used for the intended purpose).

Really, there is not much chance that $8 (or even $8000) is going to solve his problem(s) for very long, all things considered, but that little bit of breathing room others have afforded me at various points in life has meant a lot. I try to pass that along whenever I'm able.

What's the script for next time? How do I figure out what my line is here? Do I need a line?

The script for next time is either, "Sure, I can toss another $8 on that!" or "I'm really sorry, but I can't help out this time." (no need to explain beyond that, just repeat it if-needed). Your line is whatever you are comfortable giving/doing freely, without feeling resentment. The line can shift - boundaries do - depending on the circumstances. There are times when friends have asked for help and I've been able to comfortably help (meaning it wouldn't put me at a hardship) with significant funds/help and where my heart was okay with not being repaid, or possibly being lied-to, or whatever. There are other times where I've said no to $2 because I knew I'd stew over it. You don't have to explain those thoughts/feelings, just "Sure!" or "Sorry, I can't help with that." You don't have to set a permanent bar and adhere to it - just make sure YOU are okay with whatever you're doing.
posted by VioletU at 9:56 AM on July 19, 2020 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: I need to go through and mark best answers, as well as highlight some specific points people made that helped me frame this in a useful fashion, but here's the exciting update: We chatted today on the phone for a few minutes and explained how I couldn't find any payments of $8.50 coming due. He said rather than the state system I was using, the payment plan exists in a county-level system. He said he' had been making payments on it but all those $500 charges are building back up to hit a threshold that gets a warrant issued. Anyway he'll bring the citation to the phone next time so he can give me the details on looking it up with the county.

Really the big thing here for me was that paying a few dollars to help was good but I didn't see any way it wouldn't just be going down a black hole in the system. The suggestions to at least have that conversation were helpful, and seems to have gained me an explanation.

He also insisted on paying me back once he's got some odd jobs going again, as well as paying me back for all the money I've spent on phone / video chat while he's been back in. I think I'd refuse payment for either (prison communication pricing is infuriating to me) but it was a nice sentiment at least.

The hope is that he's out Wednesday and then, assuming this county stuff works out, doesn't have to worry about the man for a few weeks while he tries to get going on life on the outside again.

I'm also glad to have some thoughts on what my side of the conversation can look like if this comes up next month, but he has a reasonable plan for coming up with funds in the next few weeks so I don't expect this topic to come up again any time soon.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 4:16 PM on July 19, 2020 [6 favorites]


Tell him you're sorry, you can't cover it.

Then pay it. He may guess you paid it, or he may guess this is a bank error in his favor - either way, you have plausible deniability and you paid it.

If he asks again say "I'm sorry, I told you last time I couldn't cover it. I can't help this time either".


I was coming in here to say this. Just pay it and then deny it was you. But it seems like you've got it basically ironed out already. :)
posted by Literaryhero at 8:48 PM on July 19, 2020


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