Someone is wrong at the dinner table
July 11, 2020 8:46 AM Subscribe
9 year old is constantly correcting her family. 6 year old sister is very frustrated about it. Help me tone this down to something we can all live with.
My 9 year old is very, very committed to "people should only say things that are true! And if they don't know, they shouldn't say anything!" (She actually burst into tears at home because it turned out her teacher had told her the wrong date for a school outing and 9 year old had believed her for a whole day.)
We talked about dream jobs once and she totally brightened at the thought of being a lawyer or an editor.
I love her and she's a pain in the butt, sometimes . Most of all, 6 year old sister bears the brunt of this. She gets corrected when she misspeaks and calls a horse a pony. She gets corrected when she says something happened yesterday instead of the day before yesterday. And she won't. let. it. go. until the other person has admitted that Right Answer Is Right. Several times a day.
6 year old says this is her number one peeve in the world. She hates being corrected by "my know-it-all sister". This despite the fact that they love each other very much and choose to share a bed at night fairly often, mostly because 9 year old begs 6 year old to share.
This seriously needs to stop. I can mostly roll my eyes and say OKAY at being told it's a HORSE, mom. But this is not how you act as a sociable human being (which she is, she makes friends, even good friends, easily, because she's otherwise a fun, easy going person who rolls with whatever people want to do).
I am not entirely consistent with my reactions,which is part of the problem. But I am going to go up the wall if I have to hear another sisterfight about who said what incorrectly.
Given this, what level of "u r wrong" would you find acceptable and what message would you send as a parent?
My 9 year old is very, very committed to "people should only say things that are true! And if they don't know, they shouldn't say anything!" (She actually burst into tears at home because it turned out her teacher had told her the wrong date for a school outing and 9 year old had believed her for a whole day.)
We talked about dream jobs once and she totally brightened at the thought of being a lawyer or an editor.
I love her and she's a pain in the butt, sometimes . Most of all, 6 year old sister bears the brunt of this. She gets corrected when she misspeaks and calls a horse a pony. She gets corrected when she says something happened yesterday instead of the day before yesterday. And she won't. let. it. go. until the other person has admitted that Right Answer Is Right. Several times a day.
6 year old says this is her number one peeve in the world. She hates being corrected by "my know-it-all sister". This despite the fact that they love each other very much and choose to share a bed at night fairly often, mostly because 9 year old begs 6 year old to share.
This seriously needs to stop. I can mostly roll my eyes and say OKAY at being told it's a HORSE, mom. But this is not how you act as a sociable human being (which she is, she makes friends, even good friends, easily, because she's otherwise a fun, easy going person who rolls with whatever people want to do).
I am not entirely consistent with my reactions,which is part of the problem. But I am going to go up the wall if I have to hear another sisterfight about who said what incorrectly.
Given this, what level of "u r wrong" would you find acceptable and what message would you send as a parent?
Does she understand straight talk: sometimes people say things that aren’t exactly true but close to true and we don’t point it out because it hurts their feelings.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:11 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:11 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
(Caveat, not a parent) If she’s interested in being an editor, is 9 old enough to talk about colloquium and idiom and how if she wants to be an editor, that she needs to know how folks actually talk? I tend to call all dogs puppies no matter their age, for example. See if you can get her to develop an ear for people’s language?
posted by joycehealy at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by joycehealy at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2020 [27 favorites]
And since she’s so literal give her like 3 corrections allowed per day and once she’s had them she has to let it slide.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2020 [40 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:15 AM on July 11, 2020 [40 favorites]
When I was like your 9yo, my mom introduced me to the idea that it feels good to secretly know the right answer and sit back and watch other people be wrong because it's entertaining. This was obviously a last resort after many attempts to get me to take a mature, compassionate approach along the lines of "do you want to be right, or do you want to have a good relationship with sibling/friend/ make a good impression on strangers?" which did not work on me at 9, because obviously being right was very often more important to me, and I really didn't see the relationship harm was my fault until I was much older (because don't other people want to be right, too?). But it's what worked to get me to rein it in. Sometimes.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 9:19 AM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 9:19 AM on July 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
Oh, and anytime it was just my mom and me, like in the car or at bedtime, I could tell her about someone who was wrong, and she would praise me for not telling them so to their face.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 9:24 AM on July 11, 2020 [31 favorites]
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 9:24 AM on July 11, 2020 [31 favorites]
I'm curious if she actually gets satisfaction out of being right or just feels deeply anxious when she hears something that is "wrong"? How are her social skills otherwise? Do you think she gets that this is off-putting?
If this is coming from anxiety, maybe try all the things you might think of for an anxious kid. Possibly therapy, but also stuff to calm her nervous system like fidgets, low stimulation space she can retreat to, teaching relaxation exercises, teaching body awareness (Ie. "what does it feel like in your body when you hear someone say something wrong?). I'd be really curious if she actually is able to just sit with whatever body/nervous system discomfort happens for her when she hears something "wrong," or if she feels like something terrible might happen if she doesn't make a correction.
This could actually be a pretty good opportunity to teach body awareness and distress tolerance for an issue that's annoying, not dangerous. When she's a teenager, these skills will be really invaluable.
posted by unstrungharp at 9:25 AM on July 11, 2020 [34 favorites]
If this is coming from anxiety, maybe try all the things you might think of for an anxious kid. Possibly therapy, but also stuff to calm her nervous system like fidgets, low stimulation space she can retreat to, teaching relaxation exercises, teaching body awareness (Ie. "what does it feel like in your body when you hear someone say something wrong?). I'd be really curious if she actually is able to just sit with whatever body/nervous system discomfort happens for her when she hears something "wrong," or if she feels like something terrible might happen if she doesn't make a correction.
This could actually be a pretty good opportunity to teach body awareness and distress tolerance for an issue that's annoying, not dangerous. When she's a teenager, these skills will be really invaluable.
posted by unstrungharp at 9:25 AM on July 11, 2020 [34 favorites]
She actually burst into tears at home because it turned out her teacher had told her the wrong date for a school outing and 9 year old had believed her for a whole day.
Has she had negative experiences from people telling her the wrong information? This teacher for example-- do they often say incorrect things, and do some of these lead to, for instance, homework not being done in the right way or things being done at the wrong time? Also, are they one of those teachers who laughs off their own trivial mistakes but then insists that the kids gets things right? If there is a pattern of this at all, it can be very confusing to kids and there could be anxiety stemming from something like that.
The kinds of things her sister gets wrong probably don't have negative consequences in the worst possible world but does she know this for sure? Play the "What's the worst that could happen" game with her and then make a rule that if it's something that has zero consequences, you don't correct people younger than you.
posted by BibiRose at 9:30 AM on July 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
Has she had negative experiences from people telling her the wrong information? This teacher for example-- do they often say incorrect things, and do some of these lead to, for instance, homework not being done in the right way or things being done at the wrong time? Also, are they one of those teachers who laughs off their own trivial mistakes but then insists that the kids gets things right? If there is a pattern of this at all, it can be very confusing to kids and there could be anxiety stemming from something like that.
The kinds of things her sister gets wrong probably don't have negative consequences in the worst possible world but does she know this for sure? Play the "What's the worst that could happen" game with her and then make a rule that if it's something that has zero consequences, you don't correct people younger than you.
posted by BibiRose at 9:30 AM on July 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
When my kid was a tween, there were so.many.kids like this in her orbit. The kids who stayed this way had parents who acted amazed at their brilliance with every rude correction. The other ones -- whose parents didn't even say "Oh right it's a horse not a pony" but just totally IGNORED the correction -- stopped doing it. Tell your 9 year old to cut it out with the little sister and tell the little sister to simply ignore the correction as if it hadn't been said and to carry on, every time it happens.
posted by nantucket at 9:32 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 9:32 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
Also - what about a daily reward for staying within her three corrections? If she can stay within three corrections a day, she gets a sticker, and five stickers mean some kind of meaningful-to-her reward or outing with a parent.
Just a caution about this type of contingency management strategy: it is super effective but only if the kid actually has the skills to do the thing. So if she truly cannot stop herself from correcting people, don't implement this until you feel confident she has the skills to restrain herself from doing it - ie. you have seen her choose to refrain across several situations with no incentive. This strategy is useful once people know how to do a thing, and works to increase the frequency of the desired behaviour. If she doesn't have the skills yet, it'll just be frustrating and anxiety-provoking.
posted by unstrungharp at 9:54 AM on July 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Just a caution about this type of contingency management strategy: it is super effective but only if the kid actually has the skills to do the thing. So if she truly cannot stop herself from correcting people, don't implement this until you feel confident she has the skills to restrain herself from doing it - ie. you have seen her choose to refrain across several situations with no incentive. This strategy is useful once people know how to do a thing, and works to increase the frequency of the desired behaviour. If she doesn't have the skills yet, it'll just be frustrating and anxiety-provoking.
posted by unstrungharp at 9:54 AM on July 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
There is a great teaching tool from Heather Ward on Times Education Supplement called Editing Stations that could be a wonderful thing to bring to both your children, so your younger daughter has the opportunity to be a critic to her older sister. That may have the effect of helping your 9-yo to learn her actions have unintended consequences - kids learn fast.
A great resource from the Centre for Literacy in Primary Education is to read writing aloud and to have writing partners. Perhaps pairing the family randomly and doing this exercise in pairs, changing pairs after each story is written, edited by the other pair, rewritten, read aloud, and discussed, will enable both your children to discover mutual joyful interests they can share with parents at a time when your older daughter may feel she is reaching an age where she wants to distance herself from her little sister.
posted by parmanparman at 10:00 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
A great resource from the Centre for Literacy in Primary Education is to read writing aloud and to have writing partners. Perhaps pairing the family randomly and doing this exercise in pairs, changing pairs after each story is written, edited by the other pair, rewritten, read aloud, and discussed, will enable both your children to discover mutual joyful interests they can share with parents at a time when your older daughter may feel she is reaching an age where she wants to distance herself from her little sister.
posted by parmanparman at 10:00 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
The issue I have with this in my kids is that it’s hurtful to the younger kid. To a younger child, a horse is a pony and if older child wants to “correct” them, they need to do so kindly. Something like “you’re right, that does look a pony, but you know what, it’s a horse, and here’s how to tell the difference...” And reminding older child that they didn’t always know that difference, and how do they best learn new information? Is it from teasing or is it on their own terms?
It’s not that my older child enjoys this kind of redirection, but she’s been able to understand that explaining something is harder than correcting, and it prevents it sometimes. When there’s an age difference, I think it’s unkind to expect the younger child to be constantly be corrected, so I’d start from that angle of practicing kindness.
On preview: I love the idea of an activity that gives younger kid opportunity to be a teacher.
posted by areaperson at 10:12 AM on July 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
It’s not that my older child enjoys this kind of redirection, but she’s been able to understand that explaining something is harder than correcting, and it prevents it sometimes. When there’s an age difference, I think it’s unkind to expect the younger child to be constantly be corrected, so I’d start from that angle of practicing kindness.
On preview: I love the idea of an activity that gives younger kid opportunity to be a teacher.
posted by areaperson at 10:12 AM on July 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
I think this could be a really interesting discussion with her because, as you said, she really does love and value her little sister. So before going to a rule about what not to do, I would give one more shot to see if you can lead her there to figuring it out herself. “Why is it important to you that people are accurate? Why did it upset you when Teacher was wrong? Do you think she did it on purpose? Everybody makes mistakes, and that includes Teacher, Me, You and Little Sister. It’s ok to make mistakes. And sometimes it’s helpful to tell someone they’re making a mistake, but other times it’s not helpful. How does Teacher act when someone in class makes a mistake? How do you see me act when you make a mistake? Because you’re the big sister, you know a lot that Little Sister doesn’t know yet. Like you knew the other day about the horse. Just like I know a lot of stuff that you don’t know yet, right? Do you think it would feel bad if every time you made a mistake, I cut you off and interrupted you? Because sometimes the mistake isn’t really that important, right? And lots of times when Little Sister makes a mistake, you and I both know what she meant, so the mistake doesn’t matter. But the way we treat each other is always really important. Not treating your sister with kindness is a mistake also, just a different kind. I know how much you love Little Sister, and it’s making her feel sad and embarrassed and frustrated that you always correct her mistakes. So next time she makes a mistake—because we’re all human and we all make a lot of mistakes—think about what’s more important, the mistake, or not hurting Little Sister’s feelings.”
Next time she jumps in to correct her sister, you could pause her and say, “remember what we talked about other people’s feelings. Let your sister keep telling her story please.”
posted by sallybrown at 10:14 AM on July 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
Next time she jumps in to correct her sister, you could pause her and say, “remember what we talked about other people’s feelings. Let your sister keep telling her story please.”
posted by sallybrown at 10:14 AM on July 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
First of all, this is normal, specially when the older child loves learning new stuff and is proud of their knowledge. I'll admit your little genius seems a little over the top.
Second, exactly because the child loves learning, this is a good time to teach that there are social norms as well as material facts. Take it as something similar to a talk about math or spelling. Explain why social norms are important, and how they make the world work.
In this day and age, the truth is important. Maybe she has caught on to that by listening to adults or watching TV. We are all anxious these days and you probably need to explain that there is a difference between a 6-yo calling a horse a pony and a president calling terrorists good people.
posted by mumimor at 10:23 AM on July 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
Second, exactly because the child loves learning, this is a good time to teach that there are social norms as well as material facts. Take it as something similar to a talk about math or spelling. Explain why social norms are important, and how they make the world work.
In this day and age, the truth is important. Maybe she has caught on to that by listening to adults or watching TV. We are all anxious these days and you probably need to explain that there is a difference between a 6-yo calling a horse a pony and a president calling terrorists good people.
posted by mumimor at 10:23 AM on July 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
Maybe you could use this as an opportunity to help your daughter run through some internal "checklists" to determine whether or not something is critical to correct: the situation with the teacher telling her the wrong date and her sister using the wrong word seem quite different to me - in one case she (your daughter) was led to believe something that turned out to be untrue, and if you had believed that, too, then there's a possibility your daughter could have missed out on the school event (and either way it sounds like it was upsetting for her to think the event was on one day when it was actually on another). In the case of her little sister, it sounds like the errors are ones that your older daughter instantly knows are errors, so there's no real "risk" to her and probably not to anybody else listening either (is anybody really going to be upset if they were picturing a pony in their head and it turned out to be a horse?).
Could you talk with her about the difference between situations where someone being wrong could actually cause problems (getting the wrong day/time for an important event; telling someone to turn left rather than right while navigating somewhere; etc) and ones where they probably won't cause problems, and then follow up with her by asking questions like "Is anybody going to get hurt because of this?" "Is anybody going to miss out on something important?" "Is it up to me to correct this?" when she corrects someone? This might especially be helpful if prefaced with a discussion of other people's feelings, as sallybrown suggests, and later on could be extended with a discussion on how to correct someone once she gets better at deciding when a correction is important.
So I guess my very high-level "lesson plan" would be something like: 1) Talk with her about some of the concrete reasons why we shouldn't go around correcting people indiscriminately (other people's feelings, the "social cost" to you as the corrector); 2) Talk through examples of things that are/aren't important enough to correct, and give her some questions she could use to help decide; 3) talk about appropriate ways to correct someone when it really is important. Easier said than done, I know, and no doubt it will take quite some time, but I think with a rough approach like this you'd be giving her tools to help think think it through before she corrects someone so that it's more deliberate and purposeful, and not just a reflexive action any time she hears something that's wrong.
posted by DingoMutt at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
Could you talk with her about the difference between situations where someone being wrong could actually cause problems (getting the wrong day/time for an important event; telling someone to turn left rather than right while navigating somewhere; etc) and ones where they probably won't cause problems, and then follow up with her by asking questions like "Is anybody going to get hurt because of this?" "Is anybody going to miss out on something important?" "Is it up to me to correct this?" when she corrects someone? This might especially be helpful if prefaced with a discussion of other people's feelings, as sallybrown suggests, and later on could be extended with a discussion on how to correct someone once she gets better at deciding when a correction is important.
So I guess my very high-level "lesson plan" would be something like: 1) Talk with her about some of the concrete reasons why we shouldn't go around correcting people indiscriminately (other people's feelings, the "social cost" to you as the corrector); 2) Talk through examples of things that are/aren't important enough to correct, and give her some questions she could use to help decide; 3) talk about appropriate ways to correct someone when it really is important. Easier said than done, I know, and no doubt it will take quite some time, but I think with a rough approach like this you'd be giving her tools to help think think it through before she corrects someone so that it's more deliberate and purposeful, and not just a reflexive action any time she hears something that's wrong.
posted by DingoMutt at 10:52 AM on July 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
Is this the same kiddo that has sensory processing and executive function difficulties? If so, it sounds like this is a combination of anxiety and an inability to comprehend that people dislike it when she does this due to a lack of social skills. She is likely trying to soothe her own anxieties about inaccuracies, and in her mind EVERYONE must feel the same way, so she’s doing y’all a favor. She likely cannot read people’s reaction; she cannot tell from their body language or tone that they dislike it when she does this.
How do you address it? You address the underlying anxieties while teaching her social skills. Sit down and talk to her. Point out people’s body language and ask what she thinks it means. Turn it into something fun; if she’s smart and enjoys figuring something out, being able to read the people around her may really be enjoyable for her. Watch comedies on mute and ask her to figure out what people think based on their body language alone. And teach her, point blank, that people don’t always like being corrected. Explain that this is impolite and sometimes we need to keep our thoughts to ourselves. Then enforce it.
She sounds VERY left brained, as if she can’t quite grasp the nuances in social interactions. It is possible for her to improve this skills, but it won’t happen without teaching and repeated practice.
Good luck
posted by Amy93 at 11:10 AM on July 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
How do you address it? You address the underlying anxieties while teaching her social skills. Sit down and talk to her. Point out people’s body language and ask what she thinks it means. Turn it into something fun; if she’s smart and enjoys figuring something out, being able to read the people around her may really be enjoyable for her. Watch comedies on mute and ask her to figure out what people think based on their body language alone. And teach her, point blank, that people don’t always like being corrected. Explain that this is impolite and sometimes we need to keep our thoughts to ourselves. Then enforce it.
She sounds VERY left brained, as if she can’t quite grasp the nuances in social interactions. It is possible for her to improve this skills, but it won’t happen without teaching and repeated practice.
Good luck
posted by Amy93 at 11:10 AM on July 11, 2020 [2 favorites]
A couple of things --
1. She sounds smart enough to understand "it is a worse mistake to be rude." You can explain this to her at whatever length it takes, but not at the moment that she's doing it, because:
2. in the moment, it is of utmost importance NOT to shift your attention away from your 6yo to the attention grabbing 9yo. Negative attention is just as much of a reward as positive attention. Don't reinforce the behavior by giving it. If she does it, ignore or use finger-to-lips gesture, but no pausing of the conversation for rebukes, explanations etc.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
1. She sounds smart enough to understand "it is a worse mistake to be rude." You can explain this to her at whatever length it takes, but not at the moment that she's doing it, because:
2. in the moment, it is of utmost importance NOT to shift your attention away from your 6yo to the attention grabbing 9yo. Negative attention is just as much of a reward as positive attention. Don't reinforce the behavior by giving it. If she does it, ignore or use finger-to-lips gesture, but no pausing of the conversation for rebukes, explanations etc.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:26 AM on July 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
Truth does matter, and getting facts right does matter. This is a thing right now, and while your daughter is probably not reacting to the zeitgeist, I personally care a lot about finding the best way to understand how to negotiate getting truth and facts right while not inhibiting humans from expressing their own truths.
I totally empathize with your daughter, and there are real reasons to make sure that facts are right -- small mistakes can lead to larger ones; small untruths get repeated and perpetuated, and you never know which ones are going to be important later, or when a story is repeated a lot. People can get in the habit of ignoring or glossing over details, when details can turn out to be important, and it's important in many contexts to be in the habit of speaking or writing precisely and accurately.
There are rational, solid bases for not correcting people sometimes, and they can be more solid than "getting along" or "etiquette". Etiquette is basically quick explanations for complicated behaviors, after all -- but most people don't take the time to think through why etiquette rules exist. For better or worse, I do.
When little sister is telling a story about something that happened, she's trying to communicate a truth that's more important and more central to her life than whether the animal in the story is a pony or a horse. Everyone has important stories to tell, and they should, so there's a limited amount of time, so checking every detail will take away time from telling the more important truth.
Also, putting ideas and feelings into words is a cognitively challenging task, so interrupting the flow of little sister's words not only slows down her story, but also forces little sister to focus on that one detail, rather than on trying to communicate the central points of the story.
Finally, while it's important to get facts right, for a young child, even children the same age as older sister, learning to communicate and understand others' emotional needs is arguably more important and, for many people, much more difficult.
For adults, too, it's a heavy burden to get every single fact right -- it's not that they're lazy or uninformed, necessarily (although that might be the case sometimes); they're focusing on doing complex work, like teaching. Teaching involves not just saying things out loud; teachers have to choose which things to say, and how fast, and on looking at and listening to every single student to make sure the information is getting through to them, and on making lessons interesting while balancing that with getting the right amount of information density in each day, each hour, each 10 minutes of teaching.
The problems of fact correcting are, essentially:
- It takes valuable time away from other things (emotional connection, information transmission);
- It breaks the focus of the person being corrected (speaker);
- It means the person doing the correction isn't listening to the true intent of the speaker;
- It sends a social signal to the speaker that the listener/corrector may not trust or believe them, which makes the speaker less likely to share complete information or want to help the corrector in general.
posted by amtho at 12:22 PM on July 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
I totally empathize with your daughter, and there are real reasons to make sure that facts are right -- small mistakes can lead to larger ones; small untruths get repeated and perpetuated, and you never know which ones are going to be important later, or when a story is repeated a lot. People can get in the habit of ignoring or glossing over details, when details can turn out to be important, and it's important in many contexts to be in the habit of speaking or writing precisely and accurately.
There are rational, solid bases for not correcting people sometimes, and they can be more solid than "getting along" or "etiquette". Etiquette is basically quick explanations for complicated behaviors, after all -- but most people don't take the time to think through why etiquette rules exist. For better or worse, I do.
When little sister is telling a story about something that happened, she's trying to communicate a truth that's more important and more central to her life than whether the animal in the story is a pony or a horse. Everyone has important stories to tell, and they should, so there's a limited amount of time, so checking every detail will take away time from telling the more important truth.
Also, putting ideas and feelings into words is a cognitively challenging task, so interrupting the flow of little sister's words not only slows down her story, but also forces little sister to focus on that one detail, rather than on trying to communicate the central points of the story.
Finally, while it's important to get facts right, for a young child, even children the same age as older sister, learning to communicate and understand others' emotional needs is arguably more important and, for many people, much more difficult.
For adults, too, it's a heavy burden to get every single fact right -- it's not that they're lazy or uninformed, necessarily (although that might be the case sometimes); they're focusing on doing complex work, like teaching. Teaching involves not just saying things out loud; teachers have to choose which things to say, and how fast, and on looking at and listening to every single student to make sure the information is getting through to them, and on making lessons interesting while balancing that with getting the right amount of information density in each day, each hour, each 10 minutes of teaching.
The problems of fact correcting are, essentially:
- It takes valuable time away from other things (emotional connection, information transmission);
- It breaks the focus of the person being corrected (speaker);
- It means the person doing the correction isn't listening to the true intent of the speaker;
- It sends a social signal to the speaker that the listener/corrector may not trust or believe them, which makes the speaker less likely to share complete information or want to help the corrector in general.
posted by amtho at 12:22 PM on July 11, 2020 [10 favorites]
Don’t most kids go through s phase like this? Or is it something she’s been doing her entire life?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:26 PM on July 11, 2020
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:26 PM on July 11, 2020
We have a lot of pithy family sayings in our household (like most, I’m sure) but one we lean on a lot is:
Would you rather be right or happy?
Generally we all pick happy as long as it isn’t like some dire emergency that requires rightness to survive.
So - maybe ask 9 that question in the moment? Unless correcting actually makes her happy, I guess....
posted by hilaryjade at 3:27 PM on July 11, 2020
Would you rather be right or happy?
Generally we all pick happy as long as it isn’t like some dire emergency that requires rightness to survive.
So - maybe ask 9 that question in the moment? Unless correcting actually makes her happy, I guess....
posted by hilaryjade at 3:27 PM on July 11, 2020
The talk I would have is about Kindness, and I would reward/praise both children for being kind. It's okay for other people to make insignificant errors. It's really important to be kind. Being Right seems like a thing you can rely on, but proof isn't always available, and Kindness will take you a long way. Being Kind is lovable, Being Right about trivial stuff can make you very lonely. Being Right about important stuff is when you really need to stick to it. Let's work on recognizing what's Important and what's Trivial.
My older sister was great at stealing any thunder I might generate, and at thousands of small putdowns. She still does a fair bit of it, and still doesn't distinguish the Trivial from the Important. It has not sparked joy. I'm mid-60s and limit time with her, for more than this. but still.
posted by theora55 at 4:02 PM on July 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
My older sister was great at stealing any thunder I might generate, and at thousands of small putdowns. She still does a fair bit of it, and still doesn't distinguish the Trivial from the Important. It has not sparked joy. I'm mid-60s and limit time with her, for more than this. but still.
posted by theora55 at 4:02 PM on July 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
also -- what was said above, that it can be incredibly anxiety provoking to have to listen to someone say things you know are wrong, without saying anything -- is totally correct. I'm a middle aged person and I still experience that. It's a huge relief at the end of the day to be able to finally tell my spouse about [the frustrating thing I had to listen to.] And it makes it much easier for me to hold my peace, knowing that if I need to unburden myself, there'll be an opportunity to do it later.
So make sure you tell your 9yo that you know it can be frustrating to have to swallow her comments, and if she wants to tell you about it later - at bedtime or whenever you have your quiet 1:1 time - she can. And when she does that, tell her you're proud of her for being patient and kind in the moment.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:10 PM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
So make sure you tell your 9yo that you know it can be frustrating to have to swallow her comments, and if she wants to tell you about it later - at bedtime or whenever you have your quiet 1:1 time - she can. And when she does that, tell her you're proud of her for being patient and kind in the moment.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:10 PM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you for the many insightful answers and ideas!
I think the people who talked about anxiety may be right. It tallies with how upset she is at letting wrong details stand. She's not triumphant, she's Correcting a Great Wrong.
I never put that together because I don't understand it. I'm comfortable with inaccuracies and for me, all details unless proven are a bit up in the air; the message is the important part. Can someone who gets anxious about listening to someone get facts wrong shed a bit of light?
posted by Omnomnom at 11:02 PM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think the people who talked about anxiety may be right. It tallies with how upset she is at letting wrong details stand. She's not triumphant, she's Correcting a Great Wrong.
I never put that together because I don't understand it. I'm comfortable with inaccuracies and for me, all details unless proven are a bit up in the air; the message is the important part. Can someone who gets anxious about listening to someone get facts wrong shed a bit of light?
posted by Omnomnom at 11:02 PM on July 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
hm, well, I'm not sure the anxiety is rational. Like I could explain the narrative my brain creates about; but like most anxiety, the narrative isn't the actual source.
The narrative has some of these elements:
- if I don't point out the inaccuracy, it may be perceived that I agree with it, i.e. am also ignorant
- I have a responsibility (in general) to be truthful and not nod along with wrong beliefs
- this specific person, and any listeners, would be better served by knowing the truth
- the mistake has created a discord, like a scale played with a flat note, which will linger until I fix it
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:36 AM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
The narrative has some of these elements:
- if I don't point out the inaccuracy, it may be perceived that I agree with it, i.e. am also ignorant
- I have a responsibility (in general) to be truthful and not nod along with wrong beliefs
- this specific person, and any listeners, would be better served by knowing the truth
- the mistake has created a discord, like a scale played with a flat note, which will linger until I fix it
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:36 AM on July 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm like your 9 year old but all grown up. I'm going to preface this that I turned out fine and I don't constantly correct people with pedantry any more. I would advise treading cautiously here. I know for me my focus on what is correct extended to my moral compass, and in such has frequently allowed me in adulthood to speak out when something is not quite right or ethical. This is a really important skill to have, especially for women in places where they may experience harassment (which, let's be real, is practically everywhere). At the same time, oh my word, I am so aware of how annoying I must have been for my parents and brothers and I deeply empathize with your younger child.
I would err away from having your daughter choose between a false dichotomy of being right and being kind. I know your goal with this is to get her to see nuance and understand compromise. As a very literal person, this approach might backfire for her as it's likely she'd see it as an impossible choice between being liked and doing what she views is right. Instead, I would recommend helping her prioritize her grievances so she can better manage what needs to be shared and what doesn't.
She's old enough to be a strong writer at this point so maybe get her a notebook and pen. Tell her this is a way for her to organize her corrections throughout the day. Also explain that good lawyers observe and write things down. When she needs to correct someone, instead of telling them, she can write a note about the correction in her notebook and save it for the end of the day. At the end of the day, go through her notebook with her and ask her which correction was the most important and why (what was wrong? how did it make you feel?). You'll get insight into what bothers her most and then you can work together on different ways she can deal with that frustration. Persuasion of the other party, mindfulness, acting to peacefully resolve slights, and using I statements are all valid options.
My guess is that she holds herself to very high standards and she expects others to do the same. It may be helpful to model casually recognizing when things go wrong either with something you're doing or with something she's doing "Oops, I forgot to add salt to the dough. It's alright. There's always next time." or "Oh hey, I noticed you forgot to bring your laundry downstairs. No big deal. We all make mistakes. Let's bring it down together."
Good luck! It's a hard balance to strike and I'm sure whatever you choose to do will be a solid choice.
posted by donut_princess at 9:30 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I would err away from having your daughter choose between a false dichotomy of being right and being kind. I know your goal with this is to get her to see nuance and understand compromise. As a very literal person, this approach might backfire for her as it's likely she'd see it as an impossible choice between being liked and doing what she views is right. Instead, I would recommend helping her prioritize her grievances so she can better manage what needs to be shared and what doesn't.
She's old enough to be a strong writer at this point so maybe get her a notebook and pen. Tell her this is a way for her to organize her corrections throughout the day. Also explain that good lawyers observe and write things down. When she needs to correct someone, instead of telling them, she can write a note about the correction in her notebook and save it for the end of the day. At the end of the day, go through her notebook with her and ask her which correction was the most important and why (what was wrong? how did it make you feel?). You'll get insight into what bothers her most and then you can work together on different ways she can deal with that frustration. Persuasion of the other party, mindfulness, acting to peacefully resolve slights, and using I statements are all valid options.
My guess is that she holds herself to very high standards and she expects others to do the same. It may be helpful to model casually recognizing when things go wrong either with something you're doing or with something she's doing "Oops, I forgot to add salt to the dough. It's alright. There's always next time." or "Oh hey, I noticed you forgot to bring your laundry downstairs. No big deal. We all make mistakes. Let's bring it down together."
Good luck! It's a hard balance to strike and I'm sure whatever you choose to do will be a solid choice.
posted by donut_princess at 9:30 AM on July 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
fingersandtoes's description "the mistake has created a discord, like a scale played with a flat note, which will linger until I fix it" resonates with mine, and there's a scene a few chapters into Rosemary Kirstein's book The Steerswoman where Rowan, the scientist protagonist, articulates that at greater length. And donut_princess's experience and mine are similar in that I think my focus on what is correct also extends and extended to my moral compass.
Also: do you get bothered when you see people make a certain kind of error, like taking up two seats on a crowded bus with all their stuff, or something like that? Where it bothers you because their sloppiness will make life harder for you or other people? Maybe that will help you understand this experience.
Or: imagine if you were allergic to a certain kind of food, but it showed up in your meals sometimes, unpredictably, and if you caught it right away, you had a good chance of removing it, but if you didn't catch it till later, it might make your digestive system really unhappy, and the job of screening your food for it was (as far as you can tell) all up to you. This is what it can be like if I trust someone, believe what they say, integrate the fact they told me into my mental model of the world, and then find out later that it was wrong.
Recurse Center, an independent educational institution, cares about making nurturing learning environments, and so Recurse Center social rules suggest that we avoid interjections that start with "Well, actually...." or similar -- minor corrections that don't help with the substantive thing people are learning or deciding in that conversation. I mention this in case it's useful.
Another framing you could use when helping your daughter become more adaptable here: it sounds like she only says things when she feels 100% certain of them. Most other people she will deal with are a lot less cautious, and will say things as facts when they are only 30% certain, or even when they have zero certainty at all. Everyone gets to be in charge of how much they believe everyone else. She's allowed to notice who's more and less careful about this, and to mentally label their statements as "they seem really certain of this" or "they seem less credible about this bit". And over time, she gets to decide when to ignore people who speak confidently when they have very little certainty or credibility. She doesn't have to just live a binary of "believe everyone vs. treat all input as noise"; you can help her think through how to deal with other people saying things that might be inaccurate, and thus be a bit more resilient, like having a Plan A and a Plan B. I wonder whether this approach would help her feel empowered in situations where she otherwise feels like correcting people is her only available tool, or where she gets very upset when a person in a position of authority (like the teacher) confidently says something inaccurate.
posted by brainwane at 1:15 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Also: do you get bothered when you see people make a certain kind of error, like taking up two seats on a crowded bus with all their stuff, or something like that? Where it bothers you because their sloppiness will make life harder for you or other people? Maybe that will help you understand this experience.
Or: imagine if you were allergic to a certain kind of food, but it showed up in your meals sometimes, unpredictably, and if you caught it right away, you had a good chance of removing it, but if you didn't catch it till later, it might make your digestive system really unhappy, and the job of screening your food for it was (as far as you can tell) all up to you. This is what it can be like if I trust someone, believe what they say, integrate the fact they told me into my mental model of the world, and then find out later that it was wrong.
Recurse Center, an independent educational institution, cares about making nurturing learning environments, and so Recurse Center social rules suggest that we avoid interjections that start with "Well, actually...." or similar -- minor corrections that don't help with the substantive thing people are learning or deciding in that conversation. I mention this in case it's useful.
Another framing you could use when helping your daughter become more adaptable here: it sounds like she only says things when she feels 100% certain of them. Most other people she will deal with are a lot less cautious, and will say things as facts when they are only 30% certain, or even when they have zero certainty at all. Everyone gets to be in charge of how much they believe everyone else. She's allowed to notice who's more and less careful about this, and to mentally label their statements as "they seem really certain of this" or "they seem less credible about this bit". And over time, she gets to decide when to ignore people who speak confidently when they have very little certainty or credibility. She doesn't have to just live a binary of "believe everyone vs. treat all input as noise"; you can help her think through how to deal with other people saying things that might be inaccurate, and thus be a bit more resilient, like having a Plan A and a Plan B. I wonder whether this approach would help her feel empowered in situations where she otherwise feels like correcting people is her only available tool, or where she gets very upset when a person in a position of authority (like the teacher) confidently says something inaccurate.
posted by brainwane at 1:15 PM on July 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
choose to share a bed at night fairly often, mostly because 9 year old begs 6 year old to share.
This could feel coercive to your 6 year old. Does she really want to be sleeping with her sister, or does she not have the skills to say no in the face of being begged?
It seems like your 6 year old is getting stuck managing the feelings of an anxious older sibling a lot (dealing with constant corrections, having to be a comfort item at night - I bet if you think about it there are other examples in their relationship), and solutions should also focus on the younger sibling’s need to be an autonomous person and not just a foil for the older siblings anxieties.
posted by jeoc at 2:07 PM on July 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
This could feel coercive to your 6 year old. Does she really want to be sleeping with her sister, or does she not have the skills to say no in the face of being begged?
It seems like your 6 year old is getting stuck managing the feelings of an anxious older sibling a lot (dealing with constant corrections, having to be a comfort item at night - I bet if you think about it there are other examples in their relationship), and solutions should also focus on the younger sibling’s need to be an autonomous person and not just a foil for the older siblings anxieties.
posted by jeoc at 2:07 PM on July 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This could feel coercive to your 6 year old. Does she really want to be sleeping with her sister, or does she not have the skills to say no in the face of being begged?
She says no pretty firmly sometimes, other times, she uses it as a favour to trade in. As in, "you can sleep in my bed if you read to me first." Sometimes, she asks to share older sister's bed. It varies.
We have a very strict policy about beds being private territory.
I mean, there's no harm in me checking up on her about it, but I'd rather not derail this thread on this issue.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:31 PM on July 12, 2020
She says no pretty firmly sometimes, other times, she uses it as a favour to trade in. As in, "you can sleep in my bed if you read to me first." Sometimes, she asks to share older sister's bed. It varies.
We have a very strict policy about beds being private territory.
I mean, there's no harm in me checking up on her about it, but I'd rather not derail this thread on this issue.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:31 PM on July 12, 2020
Can someone who gets anxious about listening to someone get facts wrong shed a bit of light?
Do typos bother you? It’s maybe along the same lines for me - something is wrong, I can’t not notice it, and it distracts me from what the text (or person) is trying to convey. Of course, as an adult, I realize that it’s usually not appropriate to point out typos or minor incorrect facts, but I still notice them, find them mildly distracting, and have the urge to correct them.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:47 PM on July 12, 2020
Do typos bother you? It’s maybe along the same lines for me - something is wrong, I can’t not notice it, and it distracts me from what the text (or person) is trying to convey. Of course, as an adult, I realize that it’s usually not appropriate to point out typos or minor incorrect facts, but I still notice them, find them mildly distracting, and have the urge to correct them.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:47 PM on July 12, 2020
As a kid I was extremely literal and had a visceral reaction to things being wrong, almost like an internal itching. I could not concentrate on what else was said after they got something wrong it was so upsetting.
I think teaching her how and when she's allowed to teach would be better than her having to lock it all down. (Like, a check in question if she's unsure whether it is in fact a pony, but if she's sure it's a horse, then only after the story is she allowed to give a mini lesson on how to tell ponies and horses apart.) That might help in soothing the wrongness feeling.
These days, people being wrong mostly makes me trust the rest of what they say less. Typos still bug me some, but knowing I do them too helps. (The thing that still drives me up a wall are typos that I can't figure out what the person was intending to say at all. I will sometimes pull in other members of my family for plausible meaning.)
posted by Margalo Epps at 7:36 PM on July 12, 2020
I think teaching her how and when she's allowed to teach would be better than her having to lock it all down. (Like, a check in question if she's unsure whether it is in fact a pony, but if she's sure it's a horse, then only after the story is she allowed to give a mini lesson on how to tell ponies and horses apart.) That might help in soothing the wrongness feeling.
These days, people being wrong mostly makes me trust the rest of what they say less. Typos still bug me some, but knowing I do them too helps. (The thing that still drives me up a wall are typos that I can't figure out what the person was intending to say at all. I will sometimes pull in other members of my family for plausible meaning.)
posted by Margalo Epps at 7:36 PM on July 12, 2020
I had a student many years ago who exhibited the same behaviors as your daughter. She was on the spectrum and just could not deal if she perceived someone was wrong about something. It was very, very hard to be around her, even as an adult.
One day I gently sat her down and said, "When you correct people over and over, you are hurting them. This is incorrect behavior.To be a good friend and classmate, you must figure out another way to process your thoughts.
Here is a notebook. When you find you really need to correct somebody, open your notebook and journal about it. It is your private journal - none of your classmates are allowed to see it. When you are done writing, the journal closes, and you close that concern out.
If someone hurts you, or hurts someone else, then come to me or another teacher and tell us. Corrections go in your journal. I will help you remember the first few times it happens. Ok?"
It wasn't foolproof, but it gave her an outlet for her anxiety. One thing I didn't do that I wish I'd done is let more of her teachers know that this was the redirection they needed to please support in their classes, too, so she could have consistent support throughout her school day.
Perhaps this would help your daughter, too.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 2:15 AM on July 13, 2020
One day I gently sat her down and said, "When you correct people over and over, you are hurting them. This is incorrect behavior.To be a good friend and classmate, you must figure out another way to process your thoughts.
Here is a notebook. When you find you really need to correct somebody, open your notebook and journal about it. It is your private journal - none of your classmates are allowed to see it. When you are done writing, the journal closes, and you close that concern out.
If someone hurts you, or hurts someone else, then come to me or another teacher and tell us. Corrections go in your journal. I will help you remember the first few times it happens. Ok?"
It wasn't foolproof, but it gave her an outlet for her anxiety. One thing I didn't do that I wish I'd done is let more of her teachers know that this was the redirection they needed to please support in their classes, too, so she could have consistent support throughout her school day.
Perhaps this would help your daughter, too.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 2:15 AM on July 13, 2020
Ah, on preview I see the notebook tactic has already been suggested. This is me echoing that idea, then. :)
posted by Kitchen Witch at 2:16 AM on July 13, 2020
posted by Kitchen Witch at 2:16 AM on July 13, 2020
I was a lot like your kid.
Echoing what others have said about internal itch/disharmonious chord/"now I'm just thinking about THAT" when someone Says(/Writes/Proclaims) Something Wrong. Related I think to the feeling you get when you're looking at those lists of "pictures where one tile is out of pattern" or whatever.
I was late diagnosed (and I do mean late, 50+) with ADHD and it turns out that's a big factor, at least for me. Mostly impulsiveness - I blurt, and then regret later. (It's very hard to live with a delayed filter. And not just for me!) That breeds anxiety. And so it goes.
This would be irrelevant except for the consideration that your daughter really may take a long time to develop any brakes, and she may have to develop other mechanisms for social smoothing to compensate.
I can pretty much tolerate the discomfort now for the sake of not being an overbearing ass, but it hasn't gotten any easier. It does help to have a separate/safe outlet - the correction makes the world smooth again, and it doesn't have to be in the moment or to the wrong person directly. I like the notebook idea.
posted by Ilira at 3:31 AM on July 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Echoing what others have said about internal itch/disharmonious chord/"now I'm just thinking about THAT" when someone Says(/Writes/Proclaims) Something Wrong. Related I think to the feeling you get when you're looking at those lists of "pictures where one tile is out of pattern" or whatever.
I was late diagnosed (and I do mean late, 50+) with ADHD and it turns out that's a big factor, at least for me. Mostly impulsiveness - I blurt, and then regret later. (It's very hard to live with a delayed filter. And not just for me!) That breeds anxiety. And so it goes.
This would be irrelevant except for the consideration that your daughter really may take a long time to develop any brakes, and she may have to develop other mechanisms for social smoothing to compensate.
I can pretty much tolerate the discomfort now for the sake of not being an overbearing ass, but it hasn't gotten any easier. It does help to have a separate/safe outlet - the correction makes the world smooth again, and it doesn't have to be in the moment or to the wrong person directly. I like the notebook idea.
posted by Ilira at 3:31 AM on July 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was kinda like this and I was at that age a little more "mature" than some of my peers because I had spent a lot of time alone entertaining, educating, and doing basic life skills because my parents both worked a lot.
I can tell you that around that age was when I started to realize that sometimes authority figures have no idea what they are doing or talking about and that gave me a low level anxiety because I felt powerless and controlled by some who I perceived to be "stupid". It also was when I started to realize the world was not a meritocracy. That made my future feel a lot more limited. I went from wanting to be the first female president to realizing that I can be the best in my cohort and it doesn't really matter, because I'm in the wrong cohort. Didn't even know who the right cohort were, where to find them, etc.
These are big unnameable feelings for a 9 year old, but maybe you can start to have conversations about great achievements in life that are within her grasp. Basic things like bringing love into the world through caring for other people or pets, or finding "flow state" in an engaging hobby, or creating things that she can be artistically proud of.
Unfortunately this line of thinking never went away, and actually got worse as I got older because...well I was born during the Reagan administration so politics and leadership has been some flavor of stupid my whole life. BUT! I have been able to tune out of it a bit more and enjoy the pleasures of my life.
posted by WeekendJen at 4:28 AM on July 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can tell you that around that age was when I started to realize that sometimes authority figures have no idea what they are doing or talking about and that gave me a low level anxiety because I felt powerless and controlled by some who I perceived to be "stupid". It also was when I started to realize the world was not a meritocracy. That made my future feel a lot more limited. I went from wanting to be the first female president to realizing that I can be the best in my cohort and it doesn't really matter, because I'm in the wrong cohort. Didn't even know who the right cohort were, where to find them, etc.
These are big unnameable feelings for a 9 year old, but maybe you can start to have conversations about great achievements in life that are within her grasp. Basic things like bringing love into the world through caring for other people or pets, or finding "flow state" in an engaging hobby, or creating things that she can be artistically proud of.
Unfortunately this line of thinking never went away, and actually got worse as I got older because...well I was born during the Reagan administration so politics and leadership has been some flavor of stupid my whole life. BUT! I have been able to tune out of it a bit more and enjoy the pleasures of my life.
posted by WeekendJen at 4:28 AM on July 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
If she has any other characteristics that even vaguely suggest that she might be on the autism spectrum, please (out of an abundance of caution) consider having her formally evaluated. I was a “serial corrector” as a child, and it’s still something I have to remind myself is not socially acceptable. Unfortunately my autism diagnosis didn’t come until my mid-40’s. Times are different now—yay! Even mildly autistic children can greatly benefit from some trained intervention if applicable.
posted by Kalatraz at 11:16 PM on July 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Kalatraz at 11:16 PM on July 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
(And the follow-up to "but I was confused!" is "then you should ask a question, not tell them what they meant.")
posted by gideonfrog at 9:03 AM on July 11, 2020 [68 favorites]