am i being unreasonable?
June 30, 2020 7:11 PM Subscribe
My wife and I had an argument tonight about the safety of our children. She thinks I'm overreacting. Am I?
We live on a major street in our small town. The speed limit is 25mph, but there's a hill, and it's common for people to drive 10 or even 20mph over the speed limit going downhill. There's also a curve in the road near our house. Meanwhile, she's recently gotten into walking as a health thing, and she likes to powerwalk while pushing a stroller. I've always loved walking, but more of a leisurely stroll. We've been trying to walk together as a family.
So tonight she was pushing our 10-month-old son in the stroller, and I was with our 3-year-old daughter riding her push tricycle. Because of the powerwalking thing, she was about 15 feet ahead of us when she started to cross the street just before the curve. There was a car coming downhill, fairly quickly, around the curve. She apparently noticed, but continued as if she didn't care. I yelled at her to stop, and the car came to an abrupt stop.
We crossed the street at the same time, and on the other side I got... upset, and justifiably so, I think. It looked for all the world as if she was pushing my son into oncoming traffic. She responded that she had not actually entered the crosswalk yet, and that I must have seen things from "an angle". That may be true, in a technical, "I'm not touching you" sort of way, in that the stroller may not have crossed the plane of the curb. But regardless of angle, I could clearly see that she had not begun to decelerate at all by the time she was a couple of inches from the curb, and I could clearly see that the oncoming car did have to decelerate fairly quickly.
This is not the first time this has happened. When it's happened before, she generally responds that "pedestrians have the right of way". Again, technically true, but I'm just not willing to wager my child's life on others' observance of that right of way. This is New England; non-observance of traffic laws is quite common. And even if a driver intends to observe the traffic laws, they're going downhill and around a curve. It's not the easiest place to be a safe driver.
The other thing I found disturbing about the situation is that afterward, while we were arguing, she swore "on our son's life" that she was not going to push the stroller out into the street without first stopping. I found that extremely distasteful, considering that her perceived disregard for our son's life is what caused the incident in the first place. Not the right choice of words, IMO.
Full disclosure, I was probably a little meaner than I should have been in the ensuing argument. I'm sure that contributed to the severity, and I've apologized. But my wife continues to insist she did nothing wrong, which I just... don't get. My best-case reading of the scenario is that she was being reckless and then reflexively defensive. Is that wrong? Do you see another explanation? How would you have handled it? It scares me to death that my poor baby could have been hit by a car, and it scares me even more that my wife does not seem to care.
We live on a major street in our small town. The speed limit is 25mph, but there's a hill, and it's common for people to drive 10 or even 20mph over the speed limit going downhill. There's also a curve in the road near our house. Meanwhile, she's recently gotten into walking as a health thing, and she likes to powerwalk while pushing a stroller. I've always loved walking, but more of a leisurely stroll. We've been trying to walk together as a family.
So tonight she was pushing our 10-month-old son in the stroller, and I was with our 3-year-old daughter riding her push tricycle. Because of the powerwalking thing, she was about 15 feet ahead of us when she started to cross the street just before the curve. There was a car coming downhill, fairly quickly, around the curve. She apparently noticed, but continued as if she didn't care. I yelled at her to stop, and the car came to an abrupt stop.
We crossed the street at the same time, and on the other side I got... upset, and justifiably so, I think. It looked for all the world as if she was pushing my son into oncoming traffic. She responded that she had not actually entered the crosswalk yet, and that I must have seen things from "an angle". That may be true, in a technical, "I'm not touching you" sort of way, in that the stroller may not have crossed the plane of the curb. But regardless of angle, I could clearly see that she had not begun to decelerate at all by the time she was a couple of inches from the curb, and I could clearly see that the oncoming car did have to decelerate fairly quickly.
This is not the first time this has happened. When it's happened before, she generally responds that "pedestrians have the right of way". Again, technically true, but I'm just not willing to wager my child's life on others' observance of that right of way. This is New England; non-observance of traffic laws is quite common. And even if a driver intends to observe the traffic laws, they're going downhill and around a curve. It's not the easiest place to be a safe driver.
The other thing I found disturbing about the situation is that afterward, while we were arguing, she swore "on our son's life" that she was not going to push the stroller out into the street without first stopping. I found that extremely distasteful, considering that her perceived disregard for our son's life is what caused the incident in the first place. Not the right choice of words, IMO.
Full disclosure, I was probably a little meaner than I should have been in the ensuing argument. I'm sure that contributed to the severity, and I've apologized. But my wife continues to insist she did nothing wrong, which I just... don't get. My best-case reading of the scenario is that she was being reckless and then reflexively defensive. Is that wrong? Do you see another explanation? How would you have handled it? It scares me to death that my poor baby could have been hit by a car, and it scares me even more that my wife does not seem to care.
It sounds like you don't trust your wife's judgement, and that this incident is just the most recent example. I'm not sure how you get past/resolve that constructively without the professional help a couples therapist could offer.
posted by ApathyGirl at 7:31 PM on June 30, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by ApathyGirl at 7:31 PM on June 30, 2020 [25 favorites]
Well, it sounds like you're being reasonable.
It also sounds like she's used to crossing the road with taking a certain level of risk. It's hard to rewrite one's patterns of behavior, or perhaps for her to see what is normal behavior to her as suddenly risky.
And it sounds like you're telling her to accept what you're saying as fact, which isn't the most persuasive argument style for couples, I feel. Maybe you should take a softer approach like "Yes maybe the baby will be okay, but as a new father maybe I am the one with some new anxieties, and feel super protective of the baby. For my sake, could you try to be extra cautious as we adjust to our new roles as parents? Or let me push the stroller so I can be as risk-adverse as makes my new father's heart happy?"
posted by cacao at 7:32 PM on June 30, 2020 [33 favorites]
It also sounds like she's used to crossing the road with taking a certain level of risk. It's hard to rewrite one's patterns of behavior, or perhaps for her to see what is normal behavior to her as suddenly risky.
And it sounds like you're telling her to accept what you're saying as fact, which isn't the most persuasive argument style for couples, I feel. Maybe you should take a softer approach like "Yes maybe the baby will be okay, but as a new father maybe I am the one with some new anxieties, and feel super protective of the baby. For my sake, could you try to be extra cautious as we adjust to our new roles as parents? Or let me push the stroller so I can be as risk-adverse as makes my new father's heart happy?"
posted by cacao at 7:32 PM on June 30, 2020 [33 favorites]
I don't think anyone here can say that you are right and she is wrong, or vice versa. We only have your perception to go on - and, like, yeah, my risk appetite is similar to yours and in the situation you describe I would be uncomfortable. But, the situation you describe is almost certainly not the situation your wife would describe, so it's not worth a whole lot.
I will say this: As an adult, all my biggest regrets about my behaviour, have come when I am speaking and acting from a place of fear. When I am afraid, I am a long way from being my best self. Fear - for myself, or others, or no reason at all - slips into anger very easily. Even into rage, perhaps.
The worst part about this, is that when I am in a fearful place, insight into my own behaviours and their impacts is grossly diminished. The fear is all-encompassing, and what's not visible to me in the moment is how I am outsourcing that fear, almost trying to transfer or put it into others. Bluntly, I am largely unaware of how awful I am being, how I may be hurting or scaring others, so they end up feeling like I do. I am sure if someone had a video, I would be surprised and ashamed of how I sound.
Additionally, acting this way - whilst understandable - leads to poor outcomes. Everyone else feels scared or angry too, I feel guilty, resentment builds, the situation doesn't really change.
What is more effective is practising empathy, and perspective-taking. Sharing my fears in a non-confrontational, non judgmental way (And sometimes this means I have to shut up right in the heat of the moment), and not offering solutions or making demands. E.G "I get so nervous around this hill. Drivers are always speeding down it, and I worry that at dusk they might miss seeing you. Maybe I should put some bicycle lights on the stroller, is there anything else you think we can do to reduce the risk of getting hit? Kid 1 often hares off without checking."
Or whatever. Best of luck.
posted by smoke at 7:35 PM on June 30, 2020 [88 favorites]
I will say this: As an adult, all my biggest regrets about my behaviour, have come when I am speaking and acting from a place of fear. When I am afraid, I am a long way from being my best self. Fear - for myself, or others, or no reason at all - slips into anger very easily. Even into rage, perhaps.
The worst part about this, is that when I am in a fearful place, insight into my own behaviours and their impacts is grossly diminished. The fear is all-encompassing, and what's not visible to me in the moment is how I am outsourcing that fear, almost trying to transfer or put it into others. Bluntly, I am largely unaware of how awful I am being, how I may be hurting or scaring others, so they end up feeling like I do. I am sure if someone had a video, I would be surprised and ashamed of how I sound.
Additionally, acting this way - whilst understandable - leads to poor outcomes. Everyone else feels scared or angry too, I feel guilty, resentment builds, the situation doesn't really change.
What is more effective is practising empathy, and perspective-taking. Sharing my fears in a non-confrontational, non judgmental way (And sometimes this means I have to shut up right in the heat of the moment), and not offering solutions or making demands. E.G "I get so nervous around this hill. Drivers are always speeding down it, and I worry that at dusk they might miss seeing you. Maybe I should put some bicycle lights on the stroller, is there anything else you think we can do to reduce the risk of getting hit? Kid 1 often hares off without checking."
Or whatever. Best of luck.
posted by smoke at 7:35 PM on June 30, 2020 [88 favorites]
When you brought up postpartum mental health issues I actually assumed you were talking about yourself!
I don't think you're wrong, exactly, but I think this is one of those situations where people sometimes dig their heels in right after the incident, and once some time passes they're able to see ok, yeah, I shouldn't have done the thing in quite that way. I can't tell which of you is more likely to have that insight here, having not been at the intersection in question, but either way I don't think you'll get to that insight without taking a breather first. The child is fine, you don't think your wife has PPD, I would let it go and come back to it in a day or two. Maybe you can offer to steer the stroller tomorrow?
posted by eirias at 7:35 PM on June 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
I don't think you're wrong, exactly, but I think this is one of those situations where people sometimes dig their heels in right after the incident, and once some time passes they're able to see ok, yeah, I shouldn't have done the thing in quite that way. I can't tell which of you is more likely to have that insight here, having not been at the intersection in question, but either way I don't think you'll get to that insight without taking a breather first. The child is fine, you don't think your wife has PPD, I would let it go and come back to it in a day or two. Maybe you can offer to steer the stroller tomorrow?
posted by eirias at 7:35 PM on June 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
You are asking the wrong question. IMO, your question should be "how do I show my wife that her road safety practices (which seem completely reasonable to her) freak me the fuck out, in order to ask her to change the way she does things for the sake of my emotional wellbeing?" Because asking a bunch of strangers on the internet to prove to your wife that you are right and she is wrong will take you nowhere good.
I advise, when you are both calm, apologise for your manner, agree that you had a different angle of view and an lack of knowledge of her immediate vision and thought processes, and that you have no doubt of her love for "our" (not "my" baby).
Then, ask for a favour, even if it seems irrational to her. Ask that on any road with a curve or rise in it, that she cross further down the road, (and to use any available pedestrian crossing or lights) because you don't trust unknown drivers who may be distracted, have poor vision, or just in general be bad drivers. Agree with her that she is intelligent, and an adult and capable of making decisions to keep your family safe, but that you have realised that this is a major fear you have, and it would help you immensely if she modified her behaviour for the sake of your fear. Again, acknowledging that you might not agree completely on road safety behaviour, ask if there is something you do, that she would like you to do differently, as you realise your request takes her away from her direct route and will be undeniably annoying.
When I had small children, we lived on a corner on a hill. More than once cars did not take the curve well and ended up smashing into my neighbours large garden rocks. Also, one day I was using a pedestrian crossing, halfway across, when a speeding limousine drove right in front of me with a stroller and small child in hand. Two seconds later, tgey would have probably killed all three of us. But your aim here is not to change your wife's mind but her behaviour, and I think that is more likely to come through calm and courteous discussion, with a request for compromise.
posted by b33j at 7:46 PM on June 30, 2020 [70 favorites]
I advise, when you are both calm, apologise for your manner, agree that you had a different angle of view and an lack of knowledge of her immediate vision and thought processes, and that you have no doubt of her love for "our" (not "my" baby).
Then, ask for a favour, even if it seems irrational to her. Ask that on any road with a curve or rise in it, that she cross further down the road, (and to use any available pedestrian crossing or lights) because you don't trust unknown drivers who may be distracted, have poor vision, or just in general be bad drivers. Agree with her that she is intelligent, and an adult and capable of making decisions to keep your family safe, but that you have realised that this is a major fear you have, and it would help you immensely if she modified her behaviour for the sake of your fear. Again, acknowledging that you might not agree completely on road safety behaviour, ask if there is something you do, that she would like you to do differently, as you realise your request takes her away from her direct route and will be undeniably annoying.
When I had small children, we lived on a corner on a hill. More than once cars did not take the curve well and ended up smashing into my neighbours large garden rocks. Also, one day I was using a pedestrian crossing, halfway across, when a speeding limousine drove right in front of me with a stroller and small child in hand. Two seconds later, tgey would have probably killed all three of us. But your aim here is not to change your wife's mind but her behaviour, and I think that is more likely to come through calm and courteous discussion, with a request for compromise.
posted by b33j at 7:46 PM on June 30, 2020 [70 favorites]
Your concerns are totally reasonable but you need to change your messaging a bit for this communication to work.
Instead of pushing on "you are reckless and dangerous to our baby", message it like this:
"babe, you and the kids are the most precious things in the world to me. If that makes me overprotective, so be it, but I'm asking you now to just be extra careful, with yourself and with the kids. I trust you; but I don't trust any of these other people, especially not these crazy local drivers. Please, for my sake, will you promise to just take that extra care? Just pretend my timid, overprotective ass is with you at all times, and try to eliminate variables like 'will that downhill driver stop in time.' You and the family are my whole world and I need to know that we're in this together, protecting Us. Ok? I love you."
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:53 PM on June 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
Instead of pushing on "you are reckless and dangerous to our baby", message it like this:
"babe, you and the kids are the most precious things in the world to me. If that makes me overprotective, so be it, but I'm asking you now to just be extra careful, with yourself and with the kids. I trust you; but I don't trust any of these other people, especially not these crazy local drivers. Please, for my sake, will you promise to just take that extra care? Just pretend my timid, overprotective ass is with you at all times, and try to eliminate variables like 'will that downhill driver stop in time.' You and the family are my whole world and I need to know that we're in this together, protecting Us. Ok? I love you."
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:53 PM on June 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
Best answer: If you look at mortality tables, you’ll see car is the first or second most common cause of death, for all Americans, from ages 1-44. And that’s just fatalities, not even looking at serious injuries.
My point is cars are super deadly, and what’s astonishing is that for the most part we just kind of shrug and ignore it until someone close to us is killed.
Which is to say: you’re right to be afraid of your family getting killed by a motor vehicle; it’s the most likely way for any of you to die.
But I don’t think you have a car problem so much as an interpersonal problem. Your wife probably wants you to trust her judgment, and you want her to behave more safely/cautiously, and you need to get that discussion going imo. Perhaps looking at the stats will help you back up your concerns or help her see their merits.
As a final note: I walk, bike, and push strollers a lot. I am totally the kind of guy who will walk out to prove a point about right of way when walking on my own (highly aware, alert, and knowing I can dive to safety if necessary). But you have to be about 5-10x more careful with a stroller compared to walking solo. They impair your view, your ability to quickly respond by altering course, and of course babies are super distracting too. Good luck!
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:55 PM on June 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
My point is cars are super deadly, and what’s astonishing is that for the most part we just kind of shrug and ignore it until someone close to us is killed.
Which is to say: you’re right to be afraid of your family getting killed by a motor vehicle; it’s the most likely way for any of you to die.
But I don’t think you have a car problem so much as an interpersonal problem. Your wife probably wants you to trust her judgment, and you want her to behave more safely/cautiously, and you need to get that discussion going imo. Perhaps looking at the stats will help you back up your concerns or help her see their merits.
As a final note: I walk, bike, and push strollers a lot. I am totally the kind of guy who will walk out to prove a point about right of way when walking on my own (highly aware, alert, and knowing I can dive to safety if necessary). But you have to be about 5-10x more careful with a stroller compared to walking solo. They impair your view, your ability to quickly respond by altering course, and of course babies are super distracting too. Good luck!
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:55 PM on June 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Does your wife have a history of being in pedestrian/car accidents?
If yes then you are definitely justified in doubting her judgment about pedestrian crossings.
If not then she has probably crossed quite a few of them including that one and has been doing just fine. Questioning her judgment will likely not be productive.
On the other hand, it frightens you when she does that and that’s valid too. As a way forward I would suggest that you tell her that it frightens you to see things cut close like that, and that you would appreciate it if she could leave an extra few feet to avoid setting off your sympathetic nervous system.
I think that’s a reasonable thing to ask of someone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:56 PM on June 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
If yes then you are definitely justified in doubting her judgment about pedestrian crossings.
If not then she has probably crossed quite a few of them including that one and has been doing just fine. Questioning her judgment will likely not be productive.
On the other hand, it frightens you when she does that and that’s valid too. As a way forward I would suggest that you tell her that it frightens you to see things cut close like that, and that you would appreciate it if she could leave an extra few feet to avoid setting off your sympathetic nervous system.
I think that’s a reasonable thing to ask of someone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:56 PM on June 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Also, swearing on anything has no emotional resonance with me, except as someone's personal superlative, but maybe that's because I am an atheist, and a lot of people swear on their own holy book to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" and then lie completely. I have never seen any negative results occurring from people swearing on a book or a life or a name, and then breaking a promise, so I personally (and I hope this isn't hurtful) think that your distaste for that remark not worthy of an argument. Maybe if she was to make a habit of it, sometime in the future, you could tell her how and why it hurts your feelings, but IMO it is not at all relevant in your request for a change in her behaviour on the road, in regards to your children's safety.
posted by b33j at 7:59 PM on June 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by b33j at 7:59 PM on June 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
With only your description to go by, I do think if either of you were overreacting, it's you. And "overreacting" isn't even really the word I'd go with - but I don't think your wife was doing something inherently wrong, and I don't think that arguing "mean"ly in the heat of the moment was the best way to get what you need.
You mention post-partum, so I'm assuming that your "poor baby" is also your wife's, yes? Presumably she doesn't want him (or herself!) to get hit by a car? To me this sounds like lack of trust in another adult's judgment about something that they've been doing all their life. As you say, you were a good fifteen feet back so you couldn't see as well as your wife, nor did you know what her plans were. I am 100% positive she cares about her son and does not want to do anything to get him (or, again, herself) run over. If someone yelled at me about how I was walking, I'd feel pretty infantilized and would not be particularly willing to hear them out.
I can understand why what you saw made you so emotional, but I really don't think it's accurate to call your wife "reckless." If the two of you do have different walking styles and this is important to you, I think it's worth talking with her about your feelings and what you need from her in order to feel safe - but it'd be a good idea to do so when your fear hormones aren't flowing. On preview, b33j has some excellent pointers for this.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:59 PM on June 30, 2020 [15 favorites]
You mention post-partum, so I'm assuming that your "poor baby" is also your wife's, yes? Presumably she doesn't want him (or herself!) to get hit by a car? To me this sounds like lack of trust in another adult's judgment about something that they've been doing all their life. As you say, you were a good fifteen feet back so you couldn't see as well as your wife, nor did you know what her plans were. I am 100% positive she cares about her son and does not want to do anything to get him (or, again, herself) run over. If someone yelled at me about how I was walking, I'd feel pretty infantilized and would not be particularly willing to hear them out.
I can understand why what you saw made you so emotional, but I really don't think it's accurate to call your wife "reckless." If the two of you do have different walking styles and this is important to you, I think it's worth talking with her about your feelings and what you need from her in order to feel safe - but it'd be a good idea to do so when your fear hormones aren't flowing. On preview, b33j has some excellent pointers for this.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:59 PM on June 30, 2020 [15 favorites]
My take on it is that you find the power-walking thing annoying, and you wish she'd knock it off and walk with you in a normal and relaxed way as a family, where you can all four be together and navigate the environment safely together. If I'm right, you should talk about that, and not this. Maybe she would be willing to go on different kinds of walks (power and family) at different times if you ask her in a respectful way once you're both calmed down.
posted by fritley at 8:17 PM on June 30, 2020 [43 favorites]
posted by fritley at 8:17 PM on June 30, 2020 [43 favorites]
Can you walk down the street the other way? I’m with you that this sounds dangerous and I think I’d be the one yelling “watch out!” in that situation. One thing I’m realizing with my spouse and parenting is he does not respond well to me telling him he’s doing something dangerous re: parenting. He does not see it. He simply doesn’t have the degree of caution I have. So sometimes that’s fine - like when he’s tossing our baby in the air and I have to look away because it turns out yes, babies do love that stuff even if I only think HEAD INJURY. Other times I need to speak up, like when he leaves a hot oven cracked open around toddlers (this is a weird remnant of us being poor and him reflexively trying to use the leftover heat from dinner to warm the kitchen - he did understand it was dangerous, but forgets. Yes it’s terrifying to me).
So anyway, I have to frame these demands as low key as I can manage. (In our situation, I’ve been the sahm parent enough that I have to be the one in “protector mode” and he gets to not be, and I have to get through any resentment I have there. Not sure if you have dynamics like that in play).
So how I’m thinking I’d have to deal with this is something like: “Hey, that curve makes me nervous! I’m going to push the stroller around it. We need to agree we won’t jay walk with the kids, on this road, it’s just too busy!”
Blame it on the curve and the road. I get your adrenaline was high and I relate to your reaction. But my experience is that getting her to understand your view won’t work. she can’t mentally agree that she did something so egregious. And unless something else is going on, I think you know she’s not fundamentally so reckless, right? So it’s about fixing this situation because she sees it differently. To address that, I think It’s more effective to make it about you and the road and not her actions in that moment.
This stuff is really hard. And I think you said you were walking with another child on a tricycle, so that makes it harder. You were in parent mode with that kid and thought you were witnessing a terrible accident with your family, that’s a traumatic moment!
posted by areaperson at 8:18 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
So anyway, I have to frame these demands as low key as I can manage. (In our situation, I’ve been the sahm parent enough that I have to be the one in “protector mode” and he gets to not be, and I have to get through any resentment I have there. Not sure if you have dynamics like that in play).
So how I’m thinking I’d have to deal with this is something like: “Hey, that curve makes me nervous! I’m going to push the stroller around it. We need to agree we won’t jay walk with the kids, on this road, it’s just too busy!”
Blame it on the curve and the road. I get your adrenaline was high and I relate to your reaction. But my experience is that getting her to understand your view won’t work. she can’t mentally agree that she did something so egregious. And unless something else is going on, I think you know she’s not fundamentally so reckless, right? So it’s about fixing this situation because she sees it differently. To address that, I think It’s more effective to make it about you and the road and not her actions in that moment.
This stuff is really hard. And I think you said you were walking with another child on a tricycle, so that makes it harder. You were in parent mode with that kid and thought you were witnessing a terrible accident with your family, that’s a traumatic moment!
posted by areaperson at 8:18 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
For me and my wife, we have a similar risk differences, where she is way way more comfortable with some things than I am. I'm just not.
I get scared, and regardless of how real the risk is it is real to me
.I trust my wife. But, when she's around me I ask her to be conscious of the fact I get extremely anxious and to take things a little slower and gingerly. When she's with the kid alone she can do what she wants exactly how she wants. She does fine and cares about them too!
Every once in a while she scares me half to death, and it's usually over something exactly like this. But, we kind of have this conversation again that look I'm just terrified and I care so just when your with me do the thing okay?
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:23 PM on June 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
I get scared, and regardless of how real the risk is it is real to me
.I trust my wife. But, when she's around me I ask her to be conscious of the fact I get extremely anxious and to take things a little slower and gingerly. When she's with the kid alone she can do what she wants exactly how she wants. She does fine and cares about them too!
Every once in a while she scares me half to death, and it's usually over something exactly like this. But, we kind of have this conversation again that look I'm just terrified and I care so just when your with me do the thing okay?
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:23 PM on June 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
As a pedestrian one of the best ways to force a car to give me right of way in a crosswalk is to not make eye contact and not slow down. If I do slow down they know I'm going to stop, so they don't. The trick is to make it look to the driver as if you are oblivious while being fully aware and prepared to stop on a dime, which of course as a pedestrian, it is easy to do. It's basically a version of the game chicken. You have to convince the driver you're not going to stop, even though you are fully prepared to stop, as often drivers will run red lights or not see pedestrians if they are distracted.
I find that drivers often react angrily to me doing this, even if they are a pedestrian like me at the time. They consider it unfair to the drivers somehow.
Having grown up in a city where, if you don't signal that you're going to take your right of way no matter what you don't get it, your wife's behaviour seems both normal and safe to me.
If I were your wife and you reacted this way to me it would take me quite awhile to get over being angry at you. I understand that your heightened fear and anger response is due to being well bonded to the kid in the stroller, but not being able to control your emotions and going on the attack is very destructive to a relationship.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:23 PM on June 30, 2020 [21 favorites]
I find that drivers often react angrily to me doing this, even if they are a pedestrian like me at the time. They consider it unfair to the drivers somehow.
Having grown up in a city where, if you don't signal that you're going to take your right of way no matter what you don't get it, your wife's behaviour seems both normal and safe to me.
If I were your wife and you reacted this way to me it would take me quite awhile to get over being angry at you. I understand that your heightened fear and anger response is due to being well bonded to the kid in the stroller, but not being able to control your emotions and going on the attack is very destructive to a relationship.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:23 PM on June 30, 2020 [21 favorites]
It is patently wrong and illogical to assert that no prior history of pedestrian accidents means your wife is behaving safely enough. That is the inverse gambler’s fallacy. Everyone has never had a serious accident, until they do.
Also for the love of biscuits: please do not “play chicken” with a #^*@& motor vehicle whilst piloting a stroller with a baby inside. Salty out.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:32 PM on June 30, 2020 [46 favorites]
Also for the love of biscuits: please do not “play chicken” with a #^*@& motor vehicle whilst piloting a stroller with a baby inside. Salty out.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:32 PM on June 30, 2020 [46 favorites]
I think for the sake of your kids, maybe consider a couples therapy session or several sessions to help communicate about this issue with your spouse, and help resolve the underlying issues that may be impeding communication about a serious issue, and others that may come up in the future, both from your perspective or that of your spouse. You have two small children, and that can take its own kind of toll on the amount of energy you each may have for resolving a conflict like this.
As a lawyer, "pedestrians have the right of way" just sounds like prelude to a lawsuit, not a safety precaution. In my town, there have been so many pedestrians struck and injured by vehicles, they have not only lowered speed limits, but also installed signs, flashing lights, and speed bumps to try to improve safety. However, I think your issue sounds like something that could be resolved as a communication issue, rather than as a debate over whether it is ever safe to voluntarily be in a situation that requires a car coming around a curve to abruptly stop to protect a child in a stroller.
posted by katra at 8:36 PM on June 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
As a lawyer, "pedestrians have the right of way" just sounds like prelude to a lawsuit, not a safety precaution. In my town, there have been so many pedestrians struck and injured by vehicles, they have not only lowered speed limits, but also installed signs, flashing lights, and speed bumps to try to improve safety. However, I think your issue sounds like something that could be resolved as a communication issue, rather than as a debate over whether it is ever safe to voluntarily be in a situation that requires a car coming around a curve to abruptly stop to protect a child in a stroller.
posted by katra at 8:36 PM on June 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
I, a very careful pedestrian, have been hit by a car while out walking and your wife's behavior is giving me anxiety just reading about it. I had the right of way too. I strongly recommend listening to b33j's advice about framing; I have had success getting other people to change similar behaviors that way.
posted by ferret branca at 8:39 PM on June 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by ferret branca at 8:39 PM on June 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
I don't know, if my spouse yelled at me in public and truly thought I was playing chicken with our kid's life I would be really cheesed off. Your wife might feel like you don't trust her judgment to cross the street. It seems like you may really lack trust in her if you think she was actually walking into oncoming traffic with your child? It makes a lot more sense that it was a trick of your eyes to me, unless she has a history of being reckless and then lying about it (I'm guessing she doesn't). Your mild to moderate annoyance at her powerwalking comes through in your post. It is probably also not a secret to her and she might be reacting to that a bit as well. Nerves are frayed right now and everything is intense so I would try to cool down, be nice to each other and extend the benefit of the doubt and maybe try to talk about what's bugging y'all in a few days if things still seem off.
posted by k8lin at 8:44 PM on June 30, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by k8lin at 8:44 PM on June 30, 2020 [25 favorites]
Me and my partner have a dialed-down version of this dispute (there is no child involved). I walk into the path of oncoming motor vehicles when I have the right of way sometimes. This won't address the kid component, but in case it helps, here's what my experience is like:
I believe that it's super-important not to blame the victim (in this case, the pedestrian) for the actions of the irresponsible driver.
Unsafe crossings scare me! A very very lot! And I don't even have a child! I can spew so many statistics and anecdotes! But one of the ways that I can help normalize roads that are safe to cross is to expect drivers to stop for me when it's clear that they have that responsibility and choice (even though they might not otherwise make it). It's a way I can speak truth to power.
posted by aniola at 9:26 PM on June 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
I believe that it's super-important not to blame the victim (in this case, the pedestrian) for the actions of the irresponsible driver.
Unsafe crossings scare me! A very very lot! And I don't even have a child! I can spew so many statistics and anecdotes! But one of the ways that I can help normalize roads that are safe to cross is to expect drivers to stop for me when it's clear that they have that responsibility and choice (even though they might not otherwise make it). It's a way I can speak truth to power.
posted by aniola at 9:26 PM on June 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
People's perception of reality (risk, but also physical surroundings) can be affected by anxiety. Your love for your baby and your anxiety about his wellbeing could have meant you perceived your wife to be closer to the crosswalk than she was, or the car to be going faster etc.
I freak out when a loved one is close to the edge of a cliff, for example, even if they are like still a good metre or two away and not doing anything risky. It feels to me like they are closer to the edge than they actually are.
My good friend, after her baby was born, worried about eagles swooping down and carrying it off, even though she lived in an urban location where there are very few eagles and even though eagles aren't really known for doing this. She still found herself scanning the sky while walking with the stroller, and wasn't happy that her husband didn't take the same care.
I'm not saying your fears are irrational in themselves in the same way the eagle ones maybe are, but that in your perception of risk vs your wife's perception of risk, it's not obvious to me that you are the correct one and your wife is being too casual with your baby's life. You are the one describing your reality here, so although from your description it sounds like you are right, we can't really know.
posted by lollusc at 9:35 PM on June 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
I freak out when a loved one is close to the edge of a cliff, for example, even if they are like still a good metre or two away and not doing anything risky. It feels to me like they are closer to the edge than they actually are.
My good friend, after her baby was born, worried about eagles swooping down and carrying it off, even though she lived in an urban location where there are very few eagles and even though eagles aren't really known for doing this. She still found herself scanning the sky while walking with the stroller, and wasn't happy that her husband didn't take the same care.
I'm not saying your fears are irrational in themselves in the same way the eagle ones maybe are, but that in your perception of risk vs your wife's perception of risk, it's not obvious to me that you are the correct one and your wife is being too casual with your baby's life. You are the one describing your reality here, so although from your description it sounds like you are right, we can't really know.
posted by lollusc at 9:35 PM on June 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
I’d be uncomfortable enough with the situation you’re describing to suggest that she take her power walks by herself while you mind both kids. Just on the chance that something is going on that affects her risk perception/tolerance.
(I mean, I don’t want her to get hurt either, but she’s a grownup and will be more agile without a stroller to maneuver. And solo walking is more likely to benefit her mental tranquillity, whether or not there’s something that amounts to a memtal health issue.)
posted by lakeroon at 9:52 PM on June 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
(I mean, I don’t want her to get hurt either, but she’s a grownup and will be more agile without a stroller to maneuver. And solo walking is more likely to benefit her mental tranquillity, whether or not there’s something that amounts to a memtal health issue.)
posted by lakeroon at 9:52 PM on June 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
I hate rules and men who tell women what to do. But if what you’re describing happened like you said it did, your wife’s being borderline criminally negligent. You don’t play chicken with a baby in tow, wtf?
A couples therapist can help you communicate this legitimate concern without blowing up your marriage.
posted by jessca84 at 10:00 PM on June 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
A couples therapist can help you communicate this legitimate concern without blowing up your marriage.
posted by jessca84 at 10:00 PM on June 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
What Lakeroon said above. The -- legitimate! -- need or desire to 'powerwalk' may not be compatible with taking the kids for a stroll, or strolling with The Family. Perhaps bifurcate those. Yes, time and circumstance may easily 'force' one into thinking they have no choice but to try to kill two birds with one stone, but... doing that along with the mental impairment that comes (to all of us, both moms and dads) from the exhaustion having young children, may not be the best. Your wife has legit needs to power walk, and is a grown-ass adult who EVEN IF she's engaging (unconsciously) risky behavior, isn't likely to respond in the way you'd hope. EVEN IF your assessment of the situation, and the danger, was 100% right, your message to her may not be heard, depending on how you craft and deliver it. Gratuitous self link:
https://ask.metafilter.com/345705/the-need-to-succeed-relationship-edition#4951437
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:26 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
https://ask.metafilter.com/345705/the-need-to-succeed-relationship-edition#4951437
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:26 PM on June 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Look, I don’t know if your wife did this or not but I have seen people with prams multiple times step out in front of traffic because they’re seemingly banking on the fact that people are more likely to stop for a baby. It’s insane. They’re literally risking their baby’s life to get cars to comply to their will. When things have calmed down, I’d have a peaceful conversation with her and if you can’t do that without outside intervention, then it’s counsellor time.
posted by Jubey at 10:52 PM on June 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 10:52 PM on June 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
I would say you are being unreasonable, and that you are driven by a form of jealousy common to many, many men of the centrality and importance mothers generally have in the lives of babies.
It looked for all the world as if she was pushing my son into oncoming traffic. She responded that she had not actually entered the crosswalk yet, and that I must have seen things from "an angle"
she swore "on our son's life" ...
See the difference there? You are claiming your son ("my son") and pushing her away from him. She is resisting that ("our son's") with all her might – as well she should! – but at the same time she is drawing you into the circle with her and the babies.
That kind of jealousy is natural, and preferable by far to the opposite pole of indifference that also has a fair number of men hanging around under it shooting the shit with their buddies and ignoring the existence of their children.
But it is deeply, deeply unfair for you to accuse her of being careless with their lives so that you can convince yourself that you love them more and are therefore equally and probably more important to them than she is, and I think you should apologize to her.
posted by jamjam at 11:22 PM on June 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
It looked for all the world as if she was pushing my son into oncoming traffic. She responded that she had not actually entered the crosswalk yet, and that I must have seen things from "an angle"
she swore "on our son's life" ...
See the difference there? You are claiming your son ("my son") and pushing her away from him. She is resisting that ("our son's") with all her might – as well she should! – but at the same time she is drawing you into the circle with her and the babies.
That kind of jealousy is natural, and preferable by far to the opposite pole of indifference that also has a fair number of men hanging around under it shooting the shit with their buddies and ignoring the existence of their children.
But it is deeply, deeply unfair for you to accuse her of being careless with their lives so that you can convince yourself that you love them more and are therefore equally and probably more important to them than she is, and I think you should apologize to her.
posted by jamjam at 11:22 PM on June 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
You are overreacting to the point that I think you need to seek help from a qualified professional. Referring to the baby as "my son" and "my poor baby" is a red flag as others have pointed out, but yelling at your wife for what you think was her deceleration rate coming to a crosswalk you admit she did not in fact enter, and then adding a follow-up where you're musing about whether or not your wife secretly has postpartum depression and/or psychosis and was deliberately trying to kill the baby? You are either lying about how seriously afraid you were because you want to be right about the powerwalking and the hill with the curve or whatever, or you actually believe this, and you are catastrophizing in a way that was extremely disturbing to read. Please see a counselor about your clear anxiety and control issues. "Am I being unreasonable or did my wife just try to murder the baby" is a sign that something has gone very wrong with the way you're processing anxiety and with your ability to engage with the world in general. Please take care of this, your children will thank you in the future.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:17 AM on July 1, 2020 [49 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 12:17 AM on July 1, 2020 [49 favorites]
I was staying away from this thread because I thought my opinion was too far away from where AskMe was landing on this. But someone else finally said what I was thinking, so I will chime in.
Something is realllly messed up here, and I don’t think it is the fact that your wife, for whatever reason, let the baby stroller get too close to oncoming traffic. You are seriously musing, on the internet, whether your wife just attempted to kill herself and/or your child. I don’t think that she did… at all… but the fact that even crossed your mind is of serious concern. I don’t think you should fixate on what went down at that intersection. I do think that you as an individual--or you two as a couple--should address what seems to be a range of issues identified upthread.
(That being said, I'm 100% the kind of mom to try to freak out a speeding driver by pretending I was about to barge into the crosswalk with a baby stroller. Keeping full control of myself and the stroller at all times to prevent an actual collision from occurring.)
posted by whitewall at 1:37 AM on July 1, 2020 [21 favorites]
Something is realllly messed up here, and I don’t think it is the fact that your wife, for whatever reason, let the baby stroller get too close to oncoming traffic. You are seriously musing, on the internet, whether your wife just attempted to kill herself and/or your child. I don’t think that she did… at all… but the fact that even crossed your mind is of serious concern. I don’t think you should fixate on what went down at that intersection. I do think that you as an individual--or you two as a couple--should address what seems to be a range of issues identified upthread.
(That being said, I'm 100% the kind of mom to try to freak out a speeding driver by pretending I was about to barge into the crosswalk with a baby stroller. Keeping full control of myself and the stroller at all times to prevent an actual collision from occurring.)
posted by whitewall at 1:37 AM on July 1, 2020 [21 favorites]
The situation you describe would terrify me as well. Still, I agree with others that you should make the issue about your needs rather than your partner's behavior. Here's an example from my own life. Me to friend driving in ways I find alarming: "You are a safe driver but my anxiety kicks into high gear when we are driving under X circumstances. I have a phobia about car travel" (this is true). "Could you please slow down (or whatever) a bit to help me calm down?" Virtually always my friend or relative has responded kindly and appropriately to this type of request.
A request that your partner (who carried and gave birth to your mutual child) change her behavior to help your manage your anxiety is more likely to be successful than trying to make this about facts. Also, maybe ask if your partner might be willing to go with the three-year-old while you push the stroller if this is truly a family walk. It's not much of a family outing if mom is busy power-walking the hell away from the rest of you. Then again, maybe she is desperate for more power-walking time alone and, if that's the case, be supportive. That the two of you have different street-crossing styles is in no way an indicator that she may have postpartum depression. Maybe she does but that, dear OP, is not a sign of it.
We crossed the street at the same time ... she swore "on our son's life" that she was not going to push the stroller out into the street without first stopping. I found that extremely distasteful, considering that her perceived disregard for our son's life is what caused the incident in the first place. ... It scares me to death that my poor baby could have been hit by a car, and it scares me even more that my wife does not seem to care.
This part alarms me and the word perceived is doing a lot of work to cover your part in this. Your fear was triggered, and you shouted at your wife to stop at the curb, which she later said she would have done in any case. The two of you crossed the street at the same time. No one was injured. And yet you have decided that she has no regard for the life of the baby she carried for 9 months and then birthed. Because she cannot prove to you that she would have stopped without you yelling, you have decided that she does not care about your baby's life. OP, you have a serious problem and it is not your spouse's style of crossing the street nor the words she uses to express herself.
As others have mentioned, you don't trust your wife. You are making assumptions about her that are going to create heartbreak and worse if you don't get this worked out in your own head. Please go find a personal therapist to help you figure out how your anxiety has made you decide that your wife doesn't care about your son. She will never be able to prove to you that she cares about your mutual child since you have decided that her behavior (crossing the street with you at the same time, mind you) means that she doesn't. This is not healthy, and you should nip it in the bud ASAP, no kidding.
Your wife isn't perfect; you aren't perfect. Both of you have and will make mistakes. Do not let this disagreement go nuclear and poison your relationship by making you hostile, suspicious, and controlling toward your wife. Good luck, OP!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:03 AM on July 1, 2020 [29 favorites]
A request that your partner (who carried and gave birth to your mutual child) change her behavior to help your manage your anxiety is more likely to be successful than trying to make this about facts. Also, maybe ask if your partner might be willing to go with the three-year-old while you push the stroller if this is truly a family walk. It's not much of a family outing if mom is busy power-walking the hell away from the rest of you. Then again, maybe she is desperate for more power-walking time alone and, if that's the case, be supportive. That the two of you have different street-crossing styles is in no way an indicator that she may have postpartum depression. Maybe she does but that, dear OP, is not a sign of it.
We crossed the street at the same time ... she swore "on our son's life" that she was not going to push the stroller out into the street without first stopping. I found that extremely distasteful, considering that her perceived disregard for our son's life is what caused the incident in the first place. ... It scares me to death that my poor baby could have been hit by a car, and it scares me even more that my wife does not seem to care.
This part alarms me and the word perceived is doing a lot of work to cover your part in this. Your fear was triggered, and you shouted at your wife to stop at the curb, which she later said she would have done in any case. The two of you crossed the street at the same time. No one was injured. And yet you have decided that she has no regard for the life of the baby she carried for 9 months and then birthed. Because she cannot prove to you that she would have stopped without you yelling, you have decided that she does not care about your baby's life. OP, you have a serious problem and it is not your spouse's style of crossing the street nor the words she uses to express herself.
As others have mentioned, you don't trust your wife. You are making assumptions about her that are going to create heartbreak and worse if you don't get this worked out in your own head. Please go find a personal therapist to help you figure out how your anxiety has made you decide that your wife doesn't care about your son. She will never be able to prove to you that she cares about your mutual child since you have decided that her behavior (crossing the street with you at the same time, mind you) means that she doesn't. This is not healthy, and you should nip it in the bud ASAP, no kidding.
Your wife isn't perfect; you aren't perfect. Both of you have and will make mistakes. Do not let this disagreement go nuclear and poison your relationship by making you hostile, suspicious, and controlling toward your wife. Good luck, OP!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:03 AM on July 1, 2020 [29 favorites]
I fully believe that it doesn't matter what the **** the laws say, a pedestrian is fully responsible for ensuring their own safety. And a million times that responsible for the safety of a child in their care. At minimum, she's reacting defensively to reckless behavior. At worst, she's doing a decent job gaslighting you about potential mental health issues.
As a mom, this is the kind of not-good parenting that I assume goes along with things like letting a toddler or preschooler walk along an active road or through a busy parking lot without holding their hand and yet still insisting "but I'm WAAAAATCHING them", as if eyes somehow hold them tightly enough to prevent them from running in front of a vehicle.
I'm about the opposite from a helicopter-y parent - I believe pretty strongly in raising independent kids - but when they're small, it's our job to take care of them. And that means not behaving in unsafe ways. (Let's just say the idea proposed above of "pretending to freak out a speeding driver" or "prove a point about pedestrian laws" absolutely horrifies me - a child is not a prop to be used as an object lesson for someone's supposed moral superiority. By this same standard, we would all be intentionally hitting cyclists that don't stop properly at stop signs, and every pedestrian that jaywalks.)
I am concerned that you'll be convinced that the blame lies on you for being concerned, when you expressed what I see as absolutely reasonable concern about the behavior. I absolutely don't understand how anyone can think that because, AFTER you yelled stop, you then both crossing the street at the same time somehow makes her prior action ok.
Just because she's a mental health professional does not mean she's immune to mental health issues. Nor am I saying this definitely IS a mental health issue. It might be. But I'd be far more concerned, actually, if she has a history of other reckless or irresponsible behavior, prior to having children, or has done things previously or recently that have already raised some red flags.
Even at the absolute best case scenario, where she just didn't realize what it looked like - well, she was STILL providing a poor example for her children. A child should be taught that they look both ways and WAIT until it's SAFE to cross - not attempt to hurry up and cross in front of a vehicle, because it's often very hard to determine how much time one actually has. If a car is coming, one waits until it passes.
posted by stormyteal at 2:29 AM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
As a mom, this is the kind of not-good parenting that I assume goes along with things like letting a toddler or preschooler walk along an active road or through a busy parking lot without holding their hand and yet still insisting "but I'm WAAAAATCHING them", as if eyes somehow hold them tightly enough to prevent them from running in front of a vehicle.
I'm about the opposite from a helicopter-y parent - I believe pretty strongly in raising independent kids - but when they're small, it's our job to take care of them. And that means not behaving in unsafe ways. (Let's just say the idea proposed above of "pretending to freak out a speeding driver" or "prove a point about pedestrian laws" absolutely horrifies me - a child is not a prop to be used as an object lesson for someone's supposed moral superiority. By this same standard, we would all be intentionally hitting cyclists that don't stop properly at stop signs, and every pedestrian that jaywalks.)
I am concerned that you'll be convinced that the blame lies on you for being concerned, when you expressed what I see as absolutely reasonable concern about the behavior. I absolutely don't understand how anyone can think that because, AFTER you yelled stop, you then both crossing the street at the same time somehow makes her prior action ok.
Just because she's a mental health professional does not mean she's immune to mental health issues. Nor am I saying this definitely IS a mental health issue. It might be. But I'd be far more concerned, actually, if she has a history of other reckless or irresponsible behavior, prior to having children, or has done things previously or recently that have already raised some red flags.
Even at the absolute best case scenario, where she just didn't realize what it looked like - well, she was STILL providing a poor example for her children. A child should be taught that they look both ways and WAIT until it's SAFE to cross - not attempt to hurry up and cross in front of a vehicle, because it's often very hard to determine how much time one actually has. If a car is coming, one waits until it passes.
posted by stormyteal at 2:29 AM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
This question wants to be about control and rights, which would make sense if it was a teacher whose stroller behavior you wanted to overrule, but it doesn’t work against your wife. Coming here to figure out who’s right to try and add ballast to your side won’t work either, because no one here saw it. I think this, plus residual anger from the fight, is why you’re being somewhat belittling to your wife here, probably unconsciously, because you want this to be about who has the power to set correct procedure: She apparently noticed...she was pushing my son...my poor baby could have been hit by a car, and it scares me even more that my wife does not seem to care
And it sounds like from your description of the fight that your wife was looking for control and rights too, just in a different way, trying to invoke “I swear on our son’s life” (the trump card: you can’t question my love for my son, so stop questioning my judgment).
This pits you guys against each other in a balanced (unending) tug-of-war: yes, he’s your son, but he’s also her son. It can never work to invoke “he’s my son, so stroll how I want” or “he’s my son, and I swear on his life that I’m right” because you guys bring equal love of your kids to the table, and they’re your shared kids. Both of you think you’re doing the best for your kids that you can—right? You know your wife isn’t secretly smiling inside at playing Evil Knievel with your son and fibbing about it?
Instead, I think this is a discussion to have with your wife about fear. Be vulnerable: “You scared me. I’m so scared of our baby getting hurt, and I don’t get why we would increase the chances of something bad happening. Why weren’t you as scared of that car as I was?” That fear is always reasonable because the world can be dangerous and the risk of a child getting hurt is immense. But it can prompt unreasonable behavior. And her answer might be “I was closer and I could see the driver see me,” or something else that you didn’t perceive. Or it might be “I don’t want to wrap my kid in bubble wrap.” There are definitely some gender dynamics at play here, and they aren’t going anywhere: usually moms are expected to be the safety queens while dads are the crazy rule-breakers, and there’s all kinds of stigma about sons “coddled” by mothers. But it’s still normal for a dad to be more the more risk-averse parent—mine was, and he embraced it (endless printouts from the computer about the danger of trampolines, roller blades, backyard swimming pools, etc).
I think the best thing you can do is work on communication with your wife (whether that takes therapy or not) for when you all have different risk assessments, because it’s not going to stop happening, and the “my son,” “MY son” approach isn’t useful. Talk about your feelings and keep building trust in each other’s judgment.
posted by sallybrown at 4:29 AM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
And it sounds like from your description of the fight that your wife was looking for control and rights too, just in a different way, trying to invoke “I swear on our son’s life” (the trump card: you can’t question my love for my son, so stop questioning my judgment).
This pits you guys against each other in a balanced (unending) tug-of-war: yes, he’s your son, but he’s also her son. It can never work to invoke “he’s my son, so stroll how I want” or “he’s my son, and I swear on his life that I’m right” because you guys bring equal love of your kids to the table, and they’re your shared kids. Both of you think you’re doing the best for your kids that you can—right? You know your wife isn’t secretly smiling inside at playing Evil Knievel with your son and fibbing about it?
Instead, I think this is a discussion to have with your wife about fear. Be vulnerable: “You scared me. I’m so scared of our baby getting hurt, and I don’t get why we would increase the chances of something bad happening. Why weren’t you as scared of that car as I was?” That fear is always reasonable because the world can be dangerous and the risk of a child getting hurt is immense. But it can prompt unreasonable behavior. And her answer might be “I was closer and I could see the driver see me,” or something else that you didn’t perceive. Or it might be “I don’t want to wrap my kid in bubble wrap.” There are definitely some gender dynamics at play here, and they aren’t going anywhere: usually moms are expected to be the safety queens while dads are the crazy rule-breakers, and there’s all kinds of stigma about sons “coddled” by mothers. But it’s still normal for a dad to be more the more risk-averse parent—mine was, and he embraced it (endless printouts from the computer about the danger of trampolines, roller blades, backyard swimming pools, etc).
I think the best thing you can do is work on communication with your wife (whether that takes therapy or not) for when you all have different risk assessments, because it’s not going to stop happening, and the “my son,” “MY son” approach isn’t useful. Talk about your feelings and keep building trust in each other’s judgment.
posted by sallybrown at 4:29 AM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
This reads like a post in r/AITA and OP I think YATA. Not for the concern you show about safety, which seems reasonable, but the way in which you're expressing it. You seem like you're trying to score points with an audience; trying to establish that you are correct, you are an authority, that you are right and that your wife is wrong. Honey, that ain't how successful long-term relationships work and if you don't smack your ego down and smarten up your communication style, she's going to power-walk the hell away from you and I will cheer her on.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:02 AM on July 1, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:02 AM on July 1, 2020 [19 favorites]
I got... upset...
If "getting upset" means you flipped your shit at her, be aware that a lot of people with anger problems use this as a code. It's not about how you feel, it's about what you do. And I can't quite tell what you did or how you spoke to your wife but it sounds like it was pretty intense. If you are going off on your partner, they are even less likely to grant you your point about safety. Even more so if you have habit of doing this and describing it as "being upset."
Look, I have a pedestrian walkway by my house. In my view, about 20% of drivers just don't heed the signals at all when making a turn, and most of them are making turns. Another hefty percentage does not yield when they should. If I were walking kids across there I would double and triple my precautions and if my partner was not doing the same, I would have to negotiate this with them. But if this came up because I yelled at them, I would apologize and make sure it didn't happen again, not expect them to accept getting yelled at because I was upset.
posted by BibiRose at 5:03 AM on July 1, 2020 [13 favorites]
If "getting upset" means you flipped your shit at her, be aware that a lot of people with anger problems use this as a code. It's not about how you feel, it's about what you do. And I can't quite tell what you did or how you spoke to your wife but it sounds like it was pretty intense. If you are going off on your partner, they are even less likely to grant you your point about safety. Even more so if you have habit of doing this and describing it as "being upset."
Look, I have a pedestrian walkway by my house. In my view, about 20% of drivers just don't heed the signals at all when making a turn, and most of them are making turns. Another hefty percentage does not yield when they should. If I were walking kids across there I would double and triple my precautions and if my partner was not doing the same, I would have to negotiate this with them. But if this came up because I yelled at them, I would apologize and make sure it didn't happen again, not expect them to accept getting yelled at because I was upset.
posted by BibiRose at 5:03 AM on July 1, 2020 [13 favorites]
The only concrete and possibly problematic thing your wife seems to have done here is stop abruptly before crossing the street, and given that nobody can decelerate from a rapid walk in ~2 inches while pushing an occupied stroller, I think you’re even exaggerating that part. Every other bad thing you’re pointing to is some sort of guess, inference, projection or anxiety on your part. I empathize with the alarm you felt, but your being alarmed doesn’t make your wife wrong.
posted by jon1270 at 5:06 AM on July 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 5:06 AM on July 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
Cemeteries are full of people who could claim, "I had the right of way!"
You may be reacting as much to your wife's blasé-ness, as much as her forge-ahead walking style. No wonder you're pissed!
In the spirit of "I'm not bothered by what I don't see," take your outings separately for a while.
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:20 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
You may be reacting as much to your wife's blasé-ness, as much as her forge-ahead walking style. No wonder you're pissed!
In the spirit of "I'm not bothered by what I don't see," take your outings separately for a while.
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:20 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
To me, if your description of "the car came to an abrupt stop" is accurate, that's a sign that it was a near miss situation. The driver of the car also thought your wife wasn't going to stop. Even if she fully intended to do so, the communication of intentions between the driver and the pedestrian wasn't good. Best safety practices as a pedestrian is to assume that you're invisible to drivers unless presented with evidence to the contrary (the car slowing, eye contact, etc) and cross accordingly. After a cooling down period, perhaps ask your wife if she also thought the car stopped abruptly and what that signifies to her, then take the discussion from there?
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:40 AM on July 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 5:40 AM on July 1, 2020 [12 favorites]
Before I got to the part where you wrote it I thought your post screamed "this is New England". Is your wife native to the area while you are not? I'm not downplaying the seriousness of what happened, but I have seen on several occasions New Englanders walk as they drive, with aggression and territoriality. It's not New York style jaywalking which is not a fuck you, but an attempt at efficiency, it's a "this is the rule. Drivers yield to pedestrians. Lets see if they break the rules and kill me" stubbornness that is very scary and more than a little nuts.
I don't know what the solution is, but perhaps show her this question and the answers.
posted by perdhapley at 6:00 AM on July 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't know what the solution is, but perhaps show her this question and the answers.
posted by perdhapley at 6:00 AM on July 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Of course pedestrians have the right of way, and of course I have zero faith in the ability of drivers to follow that rule. I've seen far too many wrecks and dangerous behavior in crosswalks. My girlfriend in a wheelchair has been struck by a car, on a college campus.
And I do get the urge to throw yourself in front of a car and dare it to hit you, proving your rights even as you ride off to the hospital because a driver didn't notice you. I don't think most drivers are malicious, but entirely self centered. And for a lot of people, that means texting while driving.
And during quarantine, a lot of the bad driving has gotten worse, for multiple reasons.
So I think you're 95% right on being extra safe in these situations. But I also agree that this is a complicated situation to deal with your partner on.
posted by Jacen at 6:12 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
And I do get the urge to throw yourself in front of a car and dare it to hit you, proving your rights even as you ride off to the hospital because a driver didn't notice you. I don't think most drivers are malicious, but entirely self centered. And for a lot of people, that means texting while driving.
And during quarantine, a lot of the bad driving has gotten worse, for multiple reasons.
So I think you're 95% right on being extra safe in these situations. But I also agree that this is a complicated situation to deal with your partner on.
posted by Jacen at 6:12 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
So, I don't have kids, but I am a mental health professional who has a mental illness that is well-managed.
Imagining myself as your wife, I would feel really, really hurt that you didn't trust me, and I would also feel like there was nothing I could say that would make you believe me that the situation was safe.
I don't know - even the word "incident" sounds like a really strong, damning word, and even after reading your question multiple times, I can't really find any evidence that your wife and/or your baby were in danger. I am an anxious person, and I react really, really strongly to stimuli sometimes, so I get it. But just because I'm anxious about something doesn't make me right or make it a real concern, and if I used my anxiety as a way of controlling my partner (even unintentionally), that would be really concerning.
I know this is different, but the closest things in my life that I can think of are our pets. If my partner accused me of trying to kill his cats after I threw something on the bed they were on about three feet away from the cats, I would definitely be like, "Are you freaking kidding me?!?" and it would be a fight. Assuming good intent from your partner (until you are given evidence otherwise) is a really good practice, and for me, it doesn't read at all like you have any compelling evidence that your wife was trying to kill y'all's baby besides your anxiety. Again, I do not have kids, and I know that colors my perception of this. But if I were your wife, I would be so, so, so hurt.
posted by superlibby at 6:16 AM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
Imagining myself as your wife, I would feel really, really hurt that you didn't trust me, and I would also feel like there was nothing I could say that would make you believe me that the situation was safe.
I don't know - even the word "incident" sounds like a really strong, damning word, and even after reading your question multiple times, I can't really find any evidence that your wife and/or your baby were in danger. I am an anxious person, and I react really, really strongly to stimuli sometimes, so I get it. But just because I'm anxious about something doesn't make me right or make it a real concern, and if I used my anxiety as a way of controlling my partner (even unintentionally), that would be really concerning.
I know this is different, but the closest things in my life that I can think of are our pets. If my partner accused me of trying to kill his cats after I threw something on the bed they were on about three feet away from the cats, I would definitely be like, "Are you freaking kidding me?!?" and it would be a fight. Assuming good intent from your partner (until you are given evidence otherwise) is a really good practice, and for me, it doesn't read at all like you have any compelling evidence that your wife was trying to kill y'all's baby besides your anxiety. Again, I do not have kids, and I know that colors my perception of this. But if I were your wife, I would be so, so, so hurt.
posted by superlibby at 6:16 AM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
(Also, echoing those who can feel the irritation about the speedwalking and not walking as a family coming through this question/think maybe having walks that are family walks and making sure your wife has time for fitness walks at a different time of day would be a great solution.)
posted by superlibby at 6:17 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by superlibby at 6:17 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
Nthing that thinking, saying, shouting, or screaming "I had right of way" will not do a scrap of good as you lie on the floor in a heap.
For those who like to play "chicken". I played this game for a while after a taxi driver tought me the tactics. You look away and pretend you're not watching your opponent. I got bored and stopped playing when I was about 20-1 up. I mean, I had two tons of steel moving at speed and the other guy didn't, and my worst case was a lot better than theirs.
posted by StephenB at 6:29 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
For those who like to play "chicken". I played this game for a while after a taxi driver tought me the tactics. You look away and pretend you're not watching your opponent. I got bored and stopped playing when I was about 20-1 up. I mean, I had two tons of steel moving at speed and the other guy didn't, and my worst case was a lot better than theirs.
posted by StephenB at 6:29 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
I do think this is a good thing to work through in couples therapy or in a non-judgemental couples dialog where you are really able to listen to one another. I am your wife in my relationship - actually, I am really paranoid about crossing the street, but I've done other things that my husband found unsafe.
When he would call me out on it, it would make me defensive. What helped me was really being able to listen to him and realize this is not directly about the behavior but about his need for safety and being able to trust me, which is a deeper thing related to childhood experiences etc. Now that I understand that about him, I am both more mindful of my behavior because I understand what it means to him, and empathetic of what I previously considered an "overreaction" when he reacts to my behavior. On his side, he understands what things in my past make me feel defensive and bullied when he calls out my behavior. Having these conversations have helped me not take things as personally and get defensive, which usually causes a spiraling argument.
posted by beyond_pink at 6:30 AM on July 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
When he would call me out on it, it would make me defensive. What helped me was really being able to listen to him and realize this is not directly about the behavior but about his need for safety and being able to trust me, which is a deeper thing related to childhood experiences etc. Now that I understand that about him, I am both more mindful of my behavior because I understand what it means to him, and empathetic of what I previously considered an "overreaction" when he reacts to my behavior. On his side, he understands what things in my past make me feel defensive and bullied when he calls out my behavior. Having these conversations have helped me not take things as personally and get defensive, which usually causes a spiraling argument.
posted by beyond_pink at 6:30 AM on July 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
This is a simple risk reward thing. Sure, she may have the "right of way", but where do you cash that chip in when they are hit by the car? That is a two ton vehicle barreling down on them. Sure, it should stop. What are the chances that the person is illegally on the phone, screamiong at their own kid in the backseat, in a hurry to get somewhere, tuning the radio, or generally distracted? It is a small sample, but I have a cousin that was hit and killed while in the crosswalk.
So what is the reward? Cross the street maybe a minute faster? What is the risk? Serious injury, death or just a real scare? The risk, by far, outweighs the reward. I don't know about overreacting, but she is under reacting.
posted by AugustWest at 6:51 AM on July 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
So what is the reward? Cross the street maybe a minute faster? What is the risk? Serious injury, death or just a real scare? The risk, by far, outweighs the reward. I don't know about overreacting, but she is under reacting.
posted by AugustWest at 6:51 AM on July 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
Walking or signaling intent to walk in front of traffic coming around a curve when the driver may not have time to react is just plain stupid. Doing that with a child is at least negligent. If the child were old enough to understand what was happening it would be abuse. It's really shitty to put the driver and you and other onlookers through the stress and fear. Also a bad idea to teach kids that this is an ok thing to do.
If it were a one off thing I would let it go. But since it isn't maybe counseling or a reality check from friends/family would help.
posted by Blue Genie at 7:02 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
If it were a one off thing I would let it go. But since it isn't maybe counseling or a reality check from friends/family would help.
posted by Blue Genie at 7:02 AM on July 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
Hm. This could have been just one of those things, you know? I try to be very aware of my surroundings when walking and driving and biking. But sometimes things just happen. There’s an interplay that is scary or odd or didn’t turn out the way I intended. What’s important at the end of the day is that everyone got home safe. But you can’t blame a person for not being totally perfect in an imperfect world where there is also a crosswalk on a downhill, blind curve? I’m sure I’m not understanding that correctly. But in any case, it’s possible that this was a bad thing that felt like it could have been a disaster and it happened. I’ve also been lapsed in judgement occasionally and felt stupid about it. Someone hollering at me would have got my back up, for sure. Shit happens.
But, of course, there are ways to productively have conversation about fear and risk and anxiety and this specific roadway which sounds terrible enough that if possible you might consider moving. And don’t turn this into a massive war over who cares most for the children. OMG. Therapy for sure if you feel like you need to have that battle because there’s no winners there and you should both be on the same team.
posted by amanda at 7:21 AM on July 1, 2020
But, of course, there are ways to productively have conversation about fear and risk and anxiety and this specific roadway which sounds terrible enough that if possible you might consider moving. And don’t turn this into a massive war over who cares most for the children. OMG. Therapy for sure if you feel like you need to have that battle because there’s no winners there and you should both be on the same team.
posted by amanda at 7:21 AM on July 1, 2020
"And even if a driver intends to observe the traffic laws, they're going downhill and around a curve. It's not the easiest place to be a safe driver. "
During traffic calming discussions for a nearby neighborhood, I recall being told by traffic engineers that speeds generally don't differ significantly between uphill and downhill, even though it often appears that way. I can't find a reference to back that up right now.
In any case, no, it *is* easy for a minimally competent driver to control their speed on a small downhill. And it is also very easy to adjust speed as necessary to account for reduced sightlines around a curve.
If drivers are routinely failing to do that, well, that's a serious issue for your neighborhood to tackle.
Somewhat of a derail from the question, I realize, I just don't want to see us making apologies for dangerous driving.
posted by floppyroofing at 7:25 AM on July 1, 2020
During traffic calming discussions for a nearby neighborhood, I recall being told by traffic engineers that speeds generally don't differ significantly between uphill and downhill, even though it often appears that way. I can't find a reference to back that up right now.
In any case, no, it *is* easy for a minimally competent driver to control their speed on a small downhill. And it is also very easy to adjust speed as necessary to account for reduced sightlines around a curve.
If drivers are routinely failing to do that, well, that's a serious issue for your neighborhood to tackle.
Somewhat of a derail from the question, I realize, I just don't want to see us making apologies for dangerous driving.
posted by floppyroofing at 7:25 AM on July 1, 2020
Response by poster: Update: I just tried (key word there) to speak to my wife about this now that we've cooled down and can talk rationally. I apologized for my part and asked if she at least saw my point. She continues to insist that she did not see any danger and that I am making things up. That's why I asked the question about being unreasonable. I know I made mistakes during the subsequent argument. We don't argue well, and there's a lot more to that that I've talked about in anonymous Asks before. I'm just trying to get a sense of whether there actually was danger here. For various reasons, I don't have much of a support system around me right now, and I don't have people I can ask "this was kind of dangerous, wasn't it?" So I asked you guys. Not trying to win points or anything, just calibrating my senses because I kind of feel like I'm being gaslighted (gaslit?).
For the record, I'm the same way about asserting myself when I'm alone. I have no problem challenging drivers. I'm an avid walker and cyclist; I understand that you have to be assertive sometimes, or else drivers will never improve. But not when my kids are involved, you know?
Also for the record, I support the powerwalking. I'm the kind of person who naturally falls off the back of the pack because I stop to look at a plant or something, so I'm used to walking behind everyone else. Plus my wife generally has our daughter in the stroller too, and the natural restlessness of a toddler usually gives me time to catch up. There are plenty of issues here, but that's not one.
One thing I'm beginning to realize is that I'm more process-oriented, and she's more outcome-oriented. She seems to believe that, since nothing bad happened, she did nothing wrong. I'd rather do things the right way and have them sometimes not work out than do things the wrong way and get lucky. That's something to talk about in therapy (which, yes, is already happening), I guess, but thanks for helping me see that.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:35 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
For the record, I'm the same way about asserting myself when I'm alone. I have no problem challenging drivers. I'm an avid walker and cyclist; I understand that you have to be assertive sometimes, or else drivers will never improve. But not when my kids are involved, you know?
Also for the record, I support the powerwalking. I'm the kind of person who naturally falls off the back of the pack because I stop to look at a plant or something, so I'm used to walking behind everyone else. Plus my wife generally has our daughter in the stroller too, and the natural restlessness of a toddler usually gives me time to catch up. There are plenty of issues here, but that's not one.
One thing I'm beginning to realize is that I'm more process-oriented, and she's more outcome-oriented. She seems to believe that, since nothing bad happened, she did nothing wrong. I'd rather do things the right way and have them sometimes not work out than do things the wrong way and get lucky. That's something to talk about in therapy (which, yes, is already happening), I guess, but thanks for helping me see that.
posted by kevinbelt at 7:35 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
Why would you keep discussing this? As others said, she obviously wasn't going to push the baby into traffic, no matter how it appeared. I think at this point, especially, you are being unreasonable. Besides apologizing, I think you need to make sure she knows that you DON'T think she was going to endanger the kids because that is so disrespectful. Nothing in your description makes me think she was about to push the child in front of a car. Think about how gaslit SHE feels to be accused of such a thing.
And walk together if you're so unsure of your wife's movements! But that feels way more your issue than anything real, respectfully. I think nerves are getting to all of us, and having a new baby is stressful. Be kind to each other.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:45 AM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
And walk together if you're so unsure of your wife's movements! But that feels way more your issue than anything real, respectfully. I think nerves are getting to all of us, and having a new baby is stressful. Be kind to each other.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:45 AM on July 1, 2020 [14 favorites]
(Why did she do something "the wrong way" when she wasn't going to push a kid into traffic? Let go of your certainty on this, is what I'm saying, because this is going to be a HUGE issue, or at least it would be for me, in my relationship)
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:50 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:50 AM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
Like I said above, I'm not sure if you yelled at your wife out there or not, but if you did, please remember that your kids do not know the ins and out of this issue, they just know that their father was yelling at their mother in front of them. It's really important to teach the kids pedestrian safety but if you pitched a fit, that does not help at all. And if you yell at your wife repeatedly they are going to grow up thinking you are a control freak with anger issues. Not that i think arguing for a higher level of safety equals being a control freak, not at all. But losing your shit around small children is not going to make that point for you.
posted by BibiRose at 7:57 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by BibiRose at 7:57 AM on July 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'd have a major problem with my partner insisting that, from some distance away, they could tell me more about something I experienced than I did and interpreted my behavior as attempting to kill myself and my child. And I'm saying that as the generally-more-safety-anxious member of a couple and co-parent. "That looked really scary from where I was standing, don't forget to look both ways!" is about as far as you can push it, I think.
(I also agree with the comment upthread that her behavior sounds like utterly standard New England Pedestrian behavior; since you're in New England, and she was at a crosswalk, I'd say that her behavior is within the local norm.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 8:00 AM on July 1, 2020 [18 favorites]
(I also agree with the comment upthread that her behavior sounds like utterly standard New England Pedestrian behavior; since you're in New England, and she was at a crosswalk, I'd say that her behavior is within the local norm.)
posted by tchemgrrl at 8:00 AM on July 1, 2020 [18 favorites]
The fact that in your original question there was zero concern for your wife's well-being (it's all about "what if the baby got hurt") is disturbing. Aren't you worried about both of them? Because in your follow-up as well, it still seems like your wife is an afterthought, and if I'm getting that from your posting, I bet she's getting a whopping dose from you in person. Therapy.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:06 AM on July 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:06 AM on July 1, 2020 [9 favorites]
I'm just trying to get a sense of whether there actually was danger here.
No one is right or wrong, you have different perceptions of danger. It’s like saying you’re right because something bad could have happened, and she’s right because nothing bad did happen. Or you’re wrong because nothing bad happened, and she’s wrong because something bad could have happened.
I would worry like you, because I’m risk-averse. Like someone else said upthread, I hate seeing my friends stand near the edge of a mountain. I can’t believe it when I see people biking on city streets with their babies in a little kiddie seat. (Once I saw a guy biking with his kid on his shoulders on a city street...) But lots of people—reasonable and thoughtful people who love their kids—do things that include some degree of risk of bodily harm, because that’s life.
You and your wife need to talk through the fact that you perceive danger differently and how you can navigate that in a way that makes you both as comfortable as you can be. To do that, you need to drop the question of who is “really” right. Embrace that you find situations dangerous when she doesn’t, and stop trying to find a version of the facts where you both see it the same way. It seems like you’re seeing it as the parent who’s the most risk-averse gets to set the bar for danger to the kids. But that’s an illusion, a little bit—there are all kinds of risks to kids, short term and long term, and maybe your wife sees different risks, of what it would mean for the kids’ lives if the more risk-averse parent always makes the call. You’ll probably end up in a place where you’re a little scared and she’s a little annoyed.
posted by sallybrown at 8:10 AM on July 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
No one is right or wrong, you have different perceptions of danger. It’s like saying you’re right because something bad could have happened, and she’s right because nothing bad did happen. Or you’re wrong because nothing bad happened, and she’s wrong because something bad could have happened.
I would worry like you, because I’m risk-averse. Like someone else said upthread, I hate seeing my friends stand near the edge of a mountain. I can’t believe it when I see people biking on city streets with their babies in a little kiddie seat. (Once I saw a guy biking with his kid on his shoulders on a city street...) But lots of people—reasonable and thoughtful people who love their kids—do things that include some degree of risk of bodily harm, because that’s life.
You and your wife need to talk through the fact that you perceive danger differently and how you can navigate that in a way that makes you both as comfortable as you can be. To do that, you need to drop the question of who is “really” right. Embrace that you find situations dangerous when she doesn’t, and stop trying to find a version of the facts where you both see it the same way. It seems like you’re seeing it as the parent who’s the most risk-averse gets to set the bar for danger to the kids. But that’s an illusion, a little bit—there are all kinds of risks to kids, short term and long term, and maybe your wife sees different risks, of what it would mean for the kids’ lives if the more risk-averse parent always makes the call. You’ll probably end up in a place where you’re a little scared and she’s a little annoyed.
posted by sallybrown at 8:10 AM on July 1, 2020 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Oh, to be clear, it's very important to me that I not yell during arguments. I grew up with an abusive parent, and people raising their voices during arguments still triggers me. I'm not saying my way of arguing (I make sarcastic remarks) is good, it's problematic, just making it clear that I didn't yell at my wife in public or in front of the kids.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:17 AM on July 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 8:17 AM on July 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Wow, the answers here are all over the place.
I had a similar situation recently but with our dog. My wife was walking the dog and I was with them but on the other side of the road (picking up the trash our neighbors seem to think goes there). I saw a car coming that she couldn't and said "car!"; and my wife yanked at the dog and tried to cross the road to be with me. In my mind she should have stayed on her side of the road and held the dog. When she started coming across the road I saw the car and her and couldn't picture her making it. I yelled and she stopped. The car passed and we had a discussion. She was mad because I "yelled at her." My adrenaline was high and I told her that I didn't think she made the correct decision. From her POV the side of the road she was on didn't have enough space to step off (rural dirt road). My position was that the car coming would have been on MY side and not her side and so she should have held the dog's collar and stepped off as best she could.
Much of my frustration came from the position of concern and fear for her safety. She saw it differently. We talked, and calmed down, and discussed it further. I pictured the worst case scenario that my life would end that day if she was hit by that car. I assume you felt the same way watching a car barrel toward your wife and child.
Without hearing directly from your wife, I can't say more, but based on your version it sounds like she dug in her heals at your anger and it made it hard for to get to a place where you could speak rationally. If you continued the discussion in a heated way, then that is on you. I too would have been upset by the swearing on a loved one's life, but I also would have chalked that up to emotions and adrenaline.
I don't think you need therapy. I also don't think you need AskMe. I do think you should apologize without any conditions. You've already expressed what you saw and what you would do, so she knows your position. If you are walking at that intersection/area then you can do what you think is safest, but you can't order her to do the same.
Good luck.
posted by terrapin at 8:46 AM on July 1, 2020
I had a similar situation recently but with our dog. My wife was walking the dog and I was with them but on the other side of the road (picking up the trash our neighbors seem to think goes there). I saw a car coming that she couldn't and said "car!"; and my wife yanked at the dog and tried to cross the road to be with me. In my mind she should have stayed on her side of the road and held the dog. When she started coming across the road I saw the car and her and couldn't picture her making it. I yelled and she stopped. The car passed and we had a discussion. She was mad because I "yelled at her." My adrenaline was high and I told her that I didn't think she made the correct decision. From her POV the side of the road she was on didn't have enough space to step off (rural dirt road). My position was that the car coming would have been on MY side and not her side and so she should have held the dog's collar and stepped off as best she could.
Much of my frustration came from the position of concern and fear for her safety. She saw it differently. We talked, and calmed down, and discussed it further. I pictured the worst case scenario that my life would end that day if she was hit by that car. I assume you felt the same way watching a car barrel toward your wife and child.
Without hearing directly from your wife, I can't say more, but based on your version it sounds like she dug in her heals at your anger and it made it hard for to get to a place where you could speak rationally. If you continued the discussion in a heated way, then that is on you. I too would have been upset by the swearing on a loved one's life, but I also would have chalked that up to emotions and adrenaline.
I don't think you need therapy. I also don't think you need AskMe. I do think you should apologize without any conditions. You've already expressed what you saw and what you would do, so she knows your position. If you are walking at that intersection/area then you can do what you think is safest, but you can't order her to do the same.
Good luck.
posted by terrapin at 8:46 AM on July 1, 2020
In my subjective and not fully informed opinion, I don’t think your wife was “playing chicken”, or unsafe. (If she is wantonly unsafe, you have a larger problem.) From that premise, here are my thoughts:
In the argument(s) (hopefully not in front of your 3-year-old) I think you were out of line. You feel justified in treating your wife a certain way based on your feelings as a parent, and it doesn’t seem reciprocal.
I think you are way too confident in your version of things, and even embellish them to establish being on the right side. The primary issue is not that your wife was unsafe, it is you think she was being unsafe. She doesn’t “admit” she was doing anything wrong, because in her view, she wasn’t. You would have preferred she stop, say, three feet earlier, but she believed she was being safe, not reckless. Attacking her judgement is no way to shore up her cautionary behavior.
Also, describing her comment about swearing on the life of the baby as “distasteful” comes across as kind of holier than thou. You were pretty much accusing her of almost killing the child and said some mean things yourself, so I think your forfeit your right to parse out her words.
Lastly, as a practical point--her fitness orientated walk is incompatible with your leisurely stroll. I would find it annoying to have to stop every several hundred feet to re-group, especially when I’m trying to get my heart rate up. With two little kids, there just might not be enough time and energy for both her fitness stuff and the family walks right now. ( I know this was not part of your question, but it seems plausible to me that she wants to go out on her own with the stroller, and you have glommed on with your own version of what would be nice. She is not getting a self-focused power walk , which is aside from the greater issue, but wanted to mention it.)
I think it is healthy and can be extremely helpful to check with others to gauge things. Hope this was useful.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 9:22 AM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
In the argument(s) (hopefully not in front of your 3-year-old) I think you were out of line. You feel justified in treating your wife a certain way based on your feelings as a parent, and it doesn’t seem reciprocal.
I think you are way too confident in your version of things, and even embellish them to establish being on the right side. The primary issue is not that your wife was unsafe, it is you think she was being unsafe. She doesn’t “admit” she was doing anything wrong, because in her view, she wasn’t. You would have preferred she stop, say, three feet earlier, but she believed she was being safe, not reckless. Attacking her judgement is no way to shore up her cautionary behavior.
Also, describing her comment about swearing on the life of the baby as “distasteful” comes across as kind of holier than thou. You were pretty much accusing her of almost killing the child and said some mean things yourself, so I think your forfeit your right to parse out her words.
Lastly, as a practical point--her fitness orientated walk is incompatible with your leisurely stroll. I would find it annoying to have to stop every several hundred feet to re-group, especially when I’m trying to get my heart rate up. With two little kids, there just might not be enough time and energy for both her fitness stuff and the family walks right now. ( I know this was not part of your question, but it seems plausible to me that she wants to go out on her own with the stroller, and you have glommed on with your own version of what would be nice. She is not getting a self-focused power walk , which is aside from the greater issue, but wanted to mention it.)
I think it is healthy and can be extremely helpful to check with others to gauge things. Hope this was useful.
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 9:22 AM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
On the one hand, it doesn't matter who was "right." You assessed the situation as likely to cause an accident and it didn't, so you were wrong. She increased the odds of one happening, so she was wrong. This is not something that can be resolved because we can't look at all the parallel universes. But you want support so you can be "right" and "win" this argument, or at least have the assurance that you aren't "wrong." I don't think you can have that.
What you can have is an understanding with your wife about what makes each of you comfortable. That is, she's doing something that makes you very uncomfortable and the effort it would take to soothe you would be trivial on her part.
You're trying to be dominant on this issue when you what you really want is for her to acknowledge and accommodate your vulnerability. Imposing on her the notion that she is unsafe (and by implication stupid or irrational) is probably a non-starter. Admitting that you are afraid (rational or not, your fear is inarguable) might be a better place to work from.
posted by klanawa at 10:51 AM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
What you can have is an understanding with your wife about what makes each of you comfortable. That is, she's doing something that makes you very uncomfortable and the effort it would take to soothe you would be trivial on her part.
You're trying to be dominant on this issue when you what you really want is for her to acknowledge and accommodate your vulnerability. Imposing on her the notion that she is unsafe (and by implication stupid or irrational) is probably a non-starter. Admitting that you are afraid (rational or not, your fear is inarguable) might be a better place to work from.
posted by klanawa at 10:51 AM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
Some posters seem to think she *almost* walked out, but stopped; I'm reading it as she walked right out even though a car was coming.
I haven't seen your turn; I can tell you that I don't like crossing at a certain point before a turn. It's possible that you're right and she was unsafe; it's fair that even if she was objectively fine, it was close enough to make you nervous and you ask that she be more careful. (I have developed a habit of crossing at the crosswalk because it makes my husband feel better, though it often feels like overkill to me.)
But I will say, sometimes you just make a mistake; you make the call that it's safe and halfway across you realize that it's a closer call than you realize. If I had one of those moments, made it across, and then had my partner express concern, I'd probably say "sorry, that was closer than I thought." But if instead I got attacked with sarcasm and outrage, I might just double down on the fact that I can only use my judgement, and hey, I made it across. Yeah, it was close, but I made it. Because you made it about my judgement and skill, not just about a thing that happened, and now we're fighting about something else.
So yeah, it's possible that she did something dangerous. It's likely that she did something less than perfectly cautious. But it sounds like now you're having an argument about whether her judgement can be trusted or not.
posted by gideonfrog at 11:49 AM on July 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
I haven't seen your turn; I can tell you that I don't like crossing at a certain point before a turn. It's possible that you're right and she was unsafe; it's fair that even if she was objectively fine, it was close enough to make you nervous and you ask that she be more careful. (I have developed a habit of crossing at the crosswalk because it makes my husband feel better, though it often feels like overkill to me.)
But I will say, sometimes you just make a mistake; you make the call that it's safe and halfway across you realize that it's a closer call than you realize. If I had one of those moments, made it across, and then had my partner express concern, I'd probably say "sorry, that was closer than I thought." But if instead I got attacked with sarcasm and outrage, I might just double down on the fact that I can only use my judgement, and hey, I made it across. Yeah, it was close, but I made it. Because you made it about my judgement and skill, not just about a thing that happened, and now we're fighting about something else.
So yeah, it's possible that she did something dangerous. It's likely that she did something less than perfectly cautious. But it sounds like now you're having an argument about whether her judgement can be trusted or not.
posted by gideonfrog at 11:49 AM on July 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
It doesn't matter who was right. What matters is that now you guys need to reach a compromise here. Ask her, gently, to be more careful. I have seen my father do this to my mother, who often acts first and think later and was once nearly run over by a bus as a result of this tendency. He was gentle and slow and careful but firm in telling her he loves her deeply and needs her to be more careful so she stays alive. It is harder to get defensive is gentle and loving.
I know it's easy to read OP as judgmental and arrogant, but.... I don't know. I've seen a car accident where pedestrians, and specifically children, were killed. It is hard to describe that level of horror. I don't know if you can ever be too careful. But if you are making her defensive in the process of trying to express your concerns, you are never going to get anywhere, and your concerns will never be heard.
It would be interesting to see how the responses would change if the gender roles were reversed here.
posted by Amy93 at 12:03 PM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
I know it's easy to read OP as judgmental and arrogant, but.... I don't know. I've seen a car accident where pedestrians, and specifically children, were killed. It is hard to describe that level of horror. I don't know if you can ever be too careful. But if you are making her defensive in the process of trying to express your concerns, you are never going to get anywhere, and your concerns will never be heard.
It would be interesting to see how the responses would change if the gender roles were reversed here.
posted by Amy93 at 12:03 PM on July 1, 2020 [11 favorites]
My husband and I are having a low stakes version of the same fight. When I am walking in the neighborhood, I take early and frequent manouvers to avoid people. I step into the street, cross the street, take another route, turn around, etc etc to keep ideally 100 yards between me and everyone else. Less ideally at least half a block.
My husband thinks 10 feet is sufficient distance.
I have to trust that he is going to keep our baby safe and that he has the baby's best interest at heart. If I didn't trust that, I should not have married him and had a kid with him. So when I ask him to keep more distance, it has to come from a place of trusting that he is doing the right thing in his best judgement, and that my judgement differing does not mean I am right and he is wrong. I am simply more anxious.
posted by muddgirl at 12:28 PM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
My husband thinks 10 feet is sufficient distance.
I have to trust that he is going to keep our baby safe and that he has the baby's best interest at heart. If I didn't trust that, I should not have married him and had a kid with him. So when I ask him to keep more distance, it has to come from a place of trusting that he is doing the right thing in his best judgement, and that my judgement differing does not mean I am right and he is wrong. I am simply more anxious.
posted by muddgirl at 12:28 PM on July 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
I haven't read the responses, but here's my take on what happened: you got really scared that your wife and son were going to be hit, and then you got angry. But instead of being angry at the infrastructure, or the vulnerability of pedestrians, or poor street design, or the weight of cars, you got mad at ... your wife. You wanted to blame someone for how you felt, and you found your wife. This behavior is called "finding the bad guy," by writer and therapist Sue Johnson. Are you always looking to find responsibility and blame in the relationship, and are you always coming up with reasons why your wife is the bad guy, why she has made you feel bad? I think it might be healthier for you to instead of focusing on your wife's behavior, if you focused on how you felt. "I was really scared because I was scared you and the baby might get hurt." That's very different than telling her she was irresponsible.
It's also very interesting that in your question, you start off by saying "our son" and "our daughter," but as the situation escalates and the danger becomes clearer, you shift to "my son" and "my child." You are being very possessive, as if the threat to your kid's safety was your wife, not the car. This is weirdly patriarchal.
It's also interesting that in your comment, your first thought is that someone is going to say she's depressed and ... suicidal? Is that what you're hinting at? That's so far from what I was thinking that I don't think you are realizing just how far off your perspective is.
You got scared. You felt out of control. You were very scared of suffering from real loss. That's an extraordinarily uncomfortable and frightening feeling. But this is about control. You really want someone to tell you were being right, to the point where you are now saying we are gaslighting you.
It's a really stressful time, especially with young kids. I'm glad you are in therapy. I think you need to start sitting with there not being an answer, a truth, in this situation. Also, we are really bad at risk assessment, and I'm not sharing this article so you tell your wife she is bad at it, but so that you think about it.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:07 AM on July 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
It's also very interesting that in your question, you start off by saying "our son" and "our daughter," but as the situation escalates and the danger becomes clearer, you shift to "my son" and "my child." You are being very possessive, as if the threat to your kid's safety was your wife, not the car. This is weirdly patriarchal.
It's also interesting that in your comment, your first thought is that someone is going to say she's depressed and ... suicidal? Is that what you're hinting at? That's so far from what I was thinking that I don't think you are realizing just how far off your perspective is.
You got scared. You felt out of control. You were very scared of suffering from real loss. That's an extraordinarily uncomfortable and frightening feeling. But this is about control. You really want someone to tell you were being right, to the point where you are now saying we are gaslighting you.
It's a really stressful time, especially with young kids. I'm glad you are in therapy. I think you need to start sitting with there not being an answer, a truth, in this situation. Also, we are really bad at risk assessment, and I'm not sharing this article so you tell your wife she is bad at it, but so that you think about it.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:07 AM on July 2, 2020 [11 favorites]
I have to add a disclaimer that I am in no way impartial to this issue.
My mom was recently struck by a car while she was crossing the street, in the crosswalk and with the light. She was walking the dog and even had reflective bands on her and a light up collar on the dog. A driver didn’t see her and hit her, causing her to fly about ten feet and land on her head. She immediately lost consciousness and died a few days later of catastrophic brain bleeding.
She was completely in the right in crossing the road when she did and it didn’t make a bit of difference.
I used to jaywalk and be relatively carefree in my approach to cars while I was a pedestrian; that is far from the case now.
That being said, I agree with the others that it doesn’t sound like it’s the whole issue for you. It sounds like you are legitimately concerned for your family and maybe feeling more protective and cautious now that you have another child to care for. It sounds like your wife may want you to trust her judgement and is getting defensive because you are accusing her of what she might see as not caring for her children properly. The communication issue is really the problem.
But definitely look both ways when crossing the street.
posted by shesaysgo at 10:05 PM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
My mom was recently struck by a car while she was crossing the street, in the crosswalk and with the light. She was walking the dog and even had reflective bands on her and a light up collar on the dog. A driver didn’t see her and hit her, causing her to fly about ten feet and land on her head. She immediately lost consciousness and died a few days later of catastrophic brain bleeding.
She was completely in the right in crossing the road when she did and it didn’t make a bit of difference.
I used to jaywalk and be relatively carefree in my approach to cars while I was a pedestrian; that is far from the case now.
That being said, I agree with the others that it doesn’t sound like it’s the whole issue for you. It sounds like you are legitimately concerned for your family and maybe feeling more protective and cautious now that you have another child to care for. It sounds like your wife may want you to trust her judgement and is getting defensive because you are accusing her of what she might see as not caring for her children properly. The communication issue is really the problem.
But definitely look both ways when crossing the street.
posted by shesaysgo at 10:05 PM on July 2, 2020 [5 favorites]
A lot of the answers above seem to focus on your wife's walking speed and whether or not she meant to stop on the curb, or whether you were close enough or at the right angle to see what was really happening with that split-second timing. But what jumped out at me was where she chose to cross the road. Right before a curve and under the crest of a hill is just about the worst spot anyone could possibly pick. So, for all the folks condemning you for questioning your wife's judgement... well yep, I question your wife's judgement too.
Is there not a safer point at which to cross the road? When the kids get older they will be learning to cross the road on their own and it should be made clear to them (and taught by example) where this safe point is. Even if your wife believes that she, as an adult, has the wherewithal to spot a car coming down the hill and around the corner, estimate its speed, assess the risk, and hurry across before the car arrives, or be absolutely sure that the driver sees her and will slow down or stop, she cannot expect a child or even a preteen to make that same calculus reliably.
I also want to say that there are many, MANY adults whose general spatial awareness is not good, and the argument from authority that we should just trust all adults not to put their own child's safety at risk based on love and good intentions, is a pretty weak one. The other day I had to hit the brakes when a woman pushing her toddler in a stroller decided to jaywalk across four busy lanes of road where cars frequently push 70-80 kph, and nowhere near an intersection or crosswalk where drivers might expect to look out for pedestrians and slow down. She then hit the curb on the other side and struggled to lift the stroller wheels up onto the sidewalk, while totally exposed to oncoming traffic. That is to say nothing of the dozens of drivers that had to slow down or were whizzing past her - who here can assert that every person piloting a car or truck is going to have excellent spatial awareness, laser focus, and sharp reflexes?
Another example: my best friend - wonderful mother of three, loves her kids more than life itself - awful, terrible driver and used to be just as bad a pedestrian. She used to dawdle right into other people when walking, I have seen her step on another person's foot because she just didn't see them right in front of her. She knows her shortcomings, and now leaves the driving to her husband, and has become far more cautious when she is walking the kids to school, lessons, or the park.
Lest I be accused of misogyny, another example: my dad. He is an athletic guy with great reflexes, hand-eye, and spatial awareness, and has all the bones to be a great driver, except the focus and attention piece. He is prone to a wandering gaze, especially when there is interesting scenery or any other distracting visuals. Growing up, we had to shout at him, "Stop looking at the views, you're drifting out of the lane!" He was never trying to kill his entire family, but that's just how he is and he could've caused our deaths all the same.
All of this is to say, we all know and love people like that. An overconfident pedestrian and low-skilled/distracted driver is simply a recipe for disaster that comes together all too often. You mentioned that this is not the first time your wife has alarmed you with her pedestrian habits, and it seems that she gets defensive when it's pointed out to her. Probably doubly so in light of accusations that she endangered her baby. I understand that your emotions were running full tilt as there is nothing more terrifying than your child's life at stake, and I think you know that this wasn't helpful in persuading your wife to see your perspective. I think it might help to establish together a safe place to cross the road with maximum visibility for both pedestrian AND driver, and emphasize the long view to teaching your kids about pedestrian safety.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:59 AM on July 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
Is there not a safer point at which to cross the road? When the kids get older they will be learning to cross the road on their own and it should be made clear to them (and taught by example) where this safe point is. Even if your wife believes that she, as an adult, has the wherewithal to spot a car coming down the hill and around the corner, estimate its speed, assess the risk, and hurry across before the car arrives, or be absolutely sure that the driver sees her and will slow down or stop, she cannot expect a child or even a preteen to make that same calculus reliably.
I also want to say that there are many, MANY adults whose general spatial awareness is not good, and the argument from authority that we should just trust all adults not to put their own child's safety at risk based on love and good intentions, is a pretty weak one. The other day I had to hit the brakes when a woman pushing her toddler in a stroller decided to jaywalk across four busy lanes of road where cars frequently push 70-80 kph, and nowhere near an intersection or crosswalk where drivers might expect to look out for pedestrians and slow down. She then hit the curb on the other side and struggled to lift the stroller wheels up onto the sidewalk, while totally exposed to oncoming traffic. That is to say nothing of the dozens of drivers that had to slow down or were whizzing past her - who here can assert that every person piloting a car or truck is going to have excellent spatial awareness, laser focus, and sharp reflexes?
Another example: my best friend - wonderful mother of three, loves her kids more than life itself - awful, terrible driver and used to be just as bad a pedestrian. She used to dawdle right into other people when walking, I have seen her step on another person's foot because she just didn't see them right in front of her. She knows her shortcomings, and now leaves the driving to her husband, and has become far more cautious when she is walking the kids to school, lessons, or the park.
Lest I be accused of misogyny, another example: my dad. He is an athletic guy with great reflexes, hand-eye, and spatial awareness, and has all the bones to be a great driver, except the focus and attention piece. He is prone to a wandering gaze, especially when there is interesting scenery or any other distracting visuals. Growing up, we had to shout at him, "Stop looking at the views, you're drifting out of the lane!" He was never trying to kill his entire family, but that's just how he is and he could've caused our deaths all the same.
All of this is to say, we all know and love people like that. An overconfident pedestrian and low-skilled/distracted driver is simply a recipe for disaster that comes together all too often. You mentioned that this is not the first time your wife has alarmed you with her pedestrian habits, and it seems that she gets defensive when it's pointed out to her. Probably doubly so in light of accusations that she endangered her baby. I understand that your emotions were running full tilt as there is nothing more terrifying than your child's life at stake, and I think you know that this wasn't helpful in persuading your wife to see your perspective. I think it might help to establish together a safe place to cross the road with maximum visibility for both pedestrian AND driver, and emphasize the long view to teaching your kids about pedestrian safety.
posted by keep it under cover at 1:59 AM on July 8, 2020 [2 favorites]
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posted by kevinbelt at 7:15 PM on June 30, 2020