Is this line about Quakers a saying in England?
June 24, 2020 7:16 PM Subscribe
"Quakers will have the moral upper hand, and porridge." Is this a saying or related to one?
In Jenny Diski's memoir Gratitude, she writes:
If she's just trying to come up with something, it's very labored. Is she referencing something that anybody is familiar with? The book was published in 2016 and Diski was born in 1947, if that helps.
In Jenny Diski's memoir Gratitude, she writes:
"Well, you certainly fell on your feet," the headmaster had said in a voice that told the whole world that it showed life was unfair but that Quakers would at least have the moral upper hand, and porridge.It's an awkward and hard-to-parse sentence, I think, but that bit about Quakers threw me—she isn't a Quaker, she doesn't mention them anywhere else in the book, and it makes me wonder if she's referencing some kind of saying about Quakers (and Quaker Oats, which I suppose must be porridge in England—I'm in the US).
If she's just trying to come up with something, it's very labored. Is she referencing something that anybody is familiar with? The book was published in 2016 and Diski was born in 1947, if that helps.
Never mind, on reread, I see you’ve already considered that possibility.
posted by studioaudience at 7:43 PM on June 24, 2020
posted by studioaudience at 7:43 PM on June 24, 2020
Diski apparently attended St Christopher, a private school which, while originally founded by Theosophists, had strong Quaker influences.
posted by zamboni at 7:50 PM on June 24, 2020
posted by zamboni at 7:50 PM on June 24, 2020
That is to say, the headmaster is the Quaker in the sentence, one with an apparent sense of moral superiority and disdain for Diski.
Side note: Quaker Oats? Never had anything to do with the Society of Friends.
posted by zamboni at 7:59 PM on June 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
Side note: Quaker Oats? Never had anything to do with the Society of Friends.
Quaker Mill partner Henry Seymour found an encyclopedia article on Quakers and decided that the qualities described — integrity, honesty, purity — provided an appropriate identity for the company's oat product.
posted by zamboni at 7:59 PM on June 24, 2020 [5 favorites]
My husband, who’s actually a member of the Society of Friends, says that this reference to Quakers doesn’t mean anything to him, for what that’s worth.
posted by holborne at 8:02 PM on June 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by holborne at 8:02 PM on June 24, 2020 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: My husband, who’s actually a member of the Society of Friends, says that this reference to Quakers doesn’t mean anything to him, for what that’s worth.
I am also a Quaker! But I thought maybe it would be something in England.
Diski apparently attended St Christopher, a private school which, while originally founded by Theosophists, had strong Quaker influences. That is to say, the headmaster is the Quaker in the sentence, one with an apparent sense of moral superiority and disdain for Diski.
This feels like the key to the lock. Thanks.
posted by Orlop at 8:14 PM on June 24, 2020
I am also a Quaker! But I thought maybe it would be something in England.
Diski apparently attended St Christopher, a private school which, while originally founded by Theosophists, had strong Quaker influences. That is to say, the headmaster is the Quaker in the sentence, one with an apparent sense of moral superiority and disdain for Diski.
This feels like the key to the lock. Thanks.
posted by Orlop at 8:14 PM on June 24, 2020
I wonder if "porridge" is metonymy for something like "the bare necessities" or "a frugal living" — like, "life is unfair, but we'll have the moral high ground and it's not like we'll starve." That seems like it would make sense in context all on its own, without needing to be a reference to some other saying or bit of cultural lore.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:19 PM on June 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:19 PM on June 24, 2020 [4 favorites]
I wonder if "porridge" is metonymy for something like "the bare necessities" or "a frugal living"
No, it is a literal joke about a brand of porridge.
posted by zamboni at 8:23 PM on June 24, 2020 [12 favorites]
No, it is a literal joke about a brand of porridge.
posted by zamboni at 8:23 PM on June 24, 2020 [12 favorites]
No, I mean, I promise I've heard of Quaker Oats. Just seems like a weirdly cheap joke for that to be what he meant — especially since, as you say, actual Quakers have nothing to do with the cereal brand, and in my experience find it kind of annoying to be mentioned in the same breath as it.
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:58 PM on June 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by nebulawindphone at 8:58 PM on June 24, 2020 [1 favorite]
It probably helps to read it in context. Diski is being thrown out of school, and is mocking the sanctimonious headmaster, who she implies is disappointed that she has not received her comeuppance.
posted by zamboni at 9:12 PM on June 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 9:12 PM on June 24, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's not something in England. Quaker Oats is not a brand, and Quakers are associated with chocolate and not grains. (John Cadbury was a Quaker, as was whoever started Frys chocolates.)
posted by DarlingBri at 2:07 AM on June 25, 2020
posted by DarlingBri at 2:07 AM on June 25, 2020
Quaker Oats certainly is a brand of porridge in England, and one of the most popular ones that I can think of. This link agrees.
posted by Polychrome at 2:44 AM on June 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Polychrome at 2:44 AM on June 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
Yes sorry, it's early and I'm confusing Irish markets with UK ones. I'm 100% wrong.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:50 AM on June 25, 2020
posted by DarlingBri at 2:50 AM on June 25, 2020
Response by poster: Thanks again everyone. I really think the key was the context I was missing, that the school she was at was or had been Quaker-associated, so that she would use "Quaker" in a denigrating way to refer to the headmaster.
Maybe someday we can have a Quaker Mefites virtual get-together and complain about the usual things: No, not like the oats; No, not like the Amish...
posted by Orlop at 8:22 AM on June 25, 2020
Maybe someday we can have a Quaker Mefites virtual get-together and complain about the usual things: No, not like the oats; No, not like the Amish...
posted by Orlop at 8:22 AM on June 25, 2020
Response by poster: and I was going to say, I doubt I'd even have noticed the line if I weren't a Quaker myself.
posted by Orlop at 8:28 AM on June 25, 2020
posted by Orlop at 8:28 AM on June 25, 2020
There are a few quite famous Quaker schools in uk, one of the best known of which is Sidcot in North Somerset. Their remit is to build an education based on Quaker principles of tolerance, equality and spirituality. They believe the Inner Light, or God, is in each of us. Quaker schools reflect these philosophies in the classroom, creating a learning environment that is flexible, challenging and understanding.
So, St Christophers was influenced by Quakers, and there is a substantial history of Quaker schools in uk, which have been part of their efforts to improve social conditions. However, whatever the remit, these schools now are fee-paying, wealthy, and are in competition with private schools for the children of liberal-leaning middle- and upper-middle uk families and very well-off non-uk families. They certainly may not be a comfortable place for say, students of colour, students maybe from disrupted backgrounds, students without middle-class assurance, students who are a bit weird or intense or quirky. Though it's fair to say Sidcot is well regarded for it's support of dyslexic pupils.
I haven't read In Gratitude but I think I've read excerpts from it, or articles by Diski connected to it. I'm supposing the headmaster in the quoted passage has learned Diski is going to live with Doris Lessing? Diski, who was a mefite for a while, had a rackety, difficult childhood and upbringing of the sort that some children react to by being oppositional and determined and fiery, which qualities don't get much support from respectable, prestigious, expensive middle-class institutions. I can see why she would be scornful of the headmaster and find him a prat and a hypocrite, which sentiment she expresses perfectly clearly in the quoted passage. Was it not his business as an educator to support young people going through difficulties rather than expel them?
So it's quite a complicated, compressed bunch of meanings going on in that sentence. There is a side swipe at Quaker Oats the porridge. There is a heartfelt awareness that a person whose professed principles should have seen him act quite differently instead was petty, complacent, smug and ... a bit vindictive I think. There's kind of a hint at the history of Quaker philanthropy in uk, which philanthropy is extensive. There isn't, ime, mockery of Quakers or Quaker principles except to the extent that the man in question has let them down.
she isn't a Quaker
She was Jewish.
posted by glasseyes at 12:49 PM on June 25, 2020
So, St Christophers was influenced by Quakers, and there is a substantial history of Quaker schools in uk, which have been part of their efforts to improve social conditions. However, whatever the remit, these schools now are fee-paying, wealthy, and are in competition with private schools for the children of liberal-leaning middle- and upper-middle uk families and very well-off non-uk families. They certainly may not be a comfortable place for say, students of colour, students maybe from disrupted backgrounds, students without middle-class assurance, students who are a bit weird or intense or quirky. Though it's fair to say Sidcot is well regarded for it's support of dyslexic pupils.
I haven't read In Gratitude but I think I've read excerpts from it, or articles by Diski connected to it. I'm supposing the headmaster in the quoted passage has learned Diski is going to live with Doris Lessing? Diski, who was a mefite for a while, had a rackety, difficult childhood and upbringing of the sort that some children react to by being oppositional and determined and fiery, which qualities don't get much support from respectable, prestigious, expensive middle-class institutions. I can see why she would be scornful of the headmaster and find him a prat and a hypocrite, which sentiment she expresses perfectly clearly in the quoted passage. Was it not his business as an educator to support young people going through difficulties rather than expel them?
So it's quite a complicated, compressed bunch of meanings going on in that sentence. There is a side swipe at Quaker Oats the porridge. There is a heartfelt awareness that a person whose professed principles should have seen him act quite differently instead was petty, complacent, smug and ... a bit vindictive I think. There's kind of a hint at the history of Quaker philanthropy in uk, which philanthropy is extensive. There isn't, ime, mockery of Quakers or Quaker principles except to the extent that the man in question has let them down.
she isn't a Quaker
She was Jewish.
posted by glasseyes at 12:49 PM on June 25, 2020
Quakers held themselves separate from the secular society and could be very stubborn about it. Read up on William Penn, his hat, and the King of England. They earned a reputation for feeling themselves "holier than thou". So I think the first part was saying that even in an unfair world, Quakers would hold themselves out as holding the moral high ground.
They also had an ethos of discipline and hard work, so maybe the part about porridge is saying they coped with adversity better than the general society. I can decide if having porridge is supposed to mean having a little when most people have nothing, or if it means being comfortable and able to have something to eat even when times are hard.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:56 PM on June 25, 2020
They also had an ethos of discipline and hard work, so maybe the part about porridge is saying they coped with adversity better than the general society. I can decide if having porridge is supposed to mean having a little when most people have nothing, or if it means being comfortable and able to have something to eat even when times are hard.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:56 PM on June 25, 2020
maybe the part about porridge
No, it is a literal joke about a brand of porridge. THE PORRIDGE IS NOT A METAPHOR.
posted by zamboni at 5:42 PM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
No, it is a literal joke about a brand of porridge. THE PORRIDGE IS NOT A METAPHOR.
posted by zamboni at 5:42 PM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Ok but is anyone in this story a Viking?
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:50 PM on June 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:50 PM on June 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Arguments about porridge, that's where I'm a Viking.
posted by zamboni at 7:23 PM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by zamboni at 7:23 PM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I’m just here for the Friends. Also, a Quaker plant is located in my hometown—some days it smells like apple cinnamon oatmeal all through town.
posted by epj at 7:42 PM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by epj at 7:42 PM on June 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by studioaudience at 7:42 PM on June 24, 2020