the need to succeed, relationship edition
June 15, 2020 12:58 PM Subscribe
My fiancé in short, has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help. I have been the same person with him as I am with everyone and that is I offer help when I see they have a need for it, or give my advice when they pose a dilemma. The only problem is he never takes my advice, or he says "I think I can handle it". In a lot of instances his handling of it did not go as planned and the advice he shunned would have helped him. (For instance I told him not to take his phone on a recent camping trip and he did anyway and it fell out of the boat into the lake). I'm not allowed to say I told you so, but its in my mind. Does this happen to every couple and is it as big a problem as I see it as?
It doesn't happen in every couple but it is a known problem in heterosexual relationships. Relationship researcher Gottman actually mentions it as a predictor of whether a relationship will last the long haul. Here's one article about this phenomenon but it's been well-studied and discussed in many places.
posted by peacheater at 1:10 PM on June 15, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by peacheater at 1:10 PM on June 15, 2020 [17 favorites]
I guess I should say above that I'm taking you at your word that your example is just one example of a general pattern - otherwise going ahead and taking a phone on a camping trip doesn't strike me as so terrible. If you don't want to click through to the article about Gottman's work that I linked, here is the crucial paragraph:
Research shows that gay and lesbian couples are generally skilled when it comes to accepting influence from their partners.
In heterosexual relationships, however, “men are much more likely to refuse accepting influence from their female counterparts”, says Dr. Michael Salas, doctor of psychology.
“Obviously it takes two to make or break a marriage,” writes Gottman. “The point here is not to bash or insult men. It’s certainly just as important for wives to treat their husbands with respect.”
Nonetheless, Gottman’s data does indicate that “the majority of wives take their husband’s opinions and feelings into account when making decisions”, even when they are angry.
On the other hand, men don’t always return the favor. They are more likely to have a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude toward things.
posted by peacheater at 1:14 PM on June 15, 2020 [12 favorites]
Research shows that gay and lesbian couples are generally skilled when it comes to accepting influence from their partners.
In heterosexual relationships, however, “men are much more likely to refuse accepting influence from their female counterparts”, says Dr. Michael Salas, doctor of psychology.
“Obviously it takes two to make or break a marriage,” writes Gottman. “The point here is not to bash or insult men. It’s certainly just as important for wives to treat their husbands with respect.”
Nonetheless, Gottman’s data does indicate that “the majority of wives take their husband’s opinions and feelings into account when making decisions”, even when they are angry.
On the other hand, men don’t always return the favor. They are more likely to have a ‘my way or the highway’ attitude toward things.
posted by peacheater at 1:14 PM on June 15, 2020 [12 favorites]
This would be a dealbreaker for me. The ability to collaborate, collectively problem-solve, and being able to gracefully accept and consider advice/suggestions is a metric of emotional maturity to me. And I'm not even saying the other person has to take every suggestion, but just be able to say, "Ah, that's a good point, but I'm going to do X instead" or "Well, yeah, I'm going to deal with this in a different way but I see where your concern is coming from" is very different than outright refusal or rejection.
I just plain old don't want to live with that as my life forever, but I also think it's a super serious red flag if this is someone you plan to perform high-stakes collaboration with, like making serious financial decisions or raising children. People who can't collaborate can't co-parent (and often have no intention of doing so, instead either abdicating or undermining at every turn). People who have no interest or experience in positively engaging in perspective-sharing are very, very hard to live with.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:17 PM on June 15, 2020 [18 favorites]
I just plain old don't want to live with that as my life forever, but I also think it's a super serious red flag if this is someone you plan to perform high-stakes collaboration with, like making serious financial decisions or raising children. People who can't collaborate can't co-parent (and often have no intention of doing so, instead either abdicating or undermining at every turn). People who have no interest or experience in positively engaging in perspective-sharing are very, very hard to live with.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:17 PM on June 15, 2020 [18 favorites]
I have been both persons in this - the one that gives advice and the one who doesn't want it. I want to challenge your perspective that you are right in your advice, even in the example you give. Hindsight is 2020, but you can't retroactively justify something. There were two options here: take the phone, don't take the phone. It was equally as probable that he: could have gotten in an accident and needed his phone, someone asked him for directions and he was able to give them thanks to his phone, he lost his wallet and was able to pay for something crucial with apple/google pay. A million things could have happened, it is a pure coincidence it was the outcome that made you correct. He is an adult and it's his right to make his own choices. this might be a deal breaker for you. I think the first step in working on this is to stop framing this as "My fiancé chooses to do the wrong thing even when I'm telling him what the right thing is". He can probably sense it and it's putting him off to collaberation
posted by FirstMateKate at 1:19 PM on June 15, 2020 [67 favorites]
posted by FirstMateKate at 1:19 PM on June 15, 2020 [67 favorites]
When you build a life and share a home with someone, there are sooo many decisions that you will need to make together. Huge, important decisions that will affect the rest of your life. Is he going to be able to co-operate with you on that decision-making process? If he thinks that he always knows best, is he going to listen to you when you need to give input about something that is important to you? Trying to placate you with a "I think I can handle it" is a terrible thing to be up against when you are also an experienced, intelligent adult with useful thoughts that can make both your lives run smoother.
Are you prepared to live a life watching him do dumb shit that you totally could have helped prevent? Because I sure as hell wouldn't be.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:24 PM on June 15, 2020 [9 favorites]
Are you prepared to live a life watching him do dumb shit that you totally could have helped prevent? Because I sure as hell wouldn't be.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:24 PM on June 15, 2020 [9 favorites]
It depends on the situation and I think most people are going to map their personal experience onto the question at hand. Including me. Anyways, I think it kind-of depends.
If you have some building resentment and contempt about how he makes his way through life on a day-to-day basis, then you should decide if you think you can live with it, or make peace with it or if you can make peace with it. It's not fair to him to live his life in a position of contempt because he butterfingers his phone all the time / can't load the dishwasher right / could save a fifteen minutes each way on a commute if he could just get out of bed when the alarm goes off instead of snooze buttoning.... all that stuff. Non-optimal but in the end, lots of people live lovely lives full of friendship and love even though they really fucking suck at not hiding the mail in the back of a random cabinet because somebody's coming over and this is how they make the house "look nice".
But if he's ignoring you when it comes to not quitting his job in the middle of a pandemic to become a novelist, or his finances are a wreck because they're managed by a friend of a friend of his Dad's friend who takes 2% of assets under management every year as a fee, or he ignores you when he buys a truck because he needs it to haul mulch once a year that could be delivered for $30. This is Problem Zone and honestly, I'd send him packing over it, but that's me.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 1:42 PM on June 15, 2020 [23 favorites]
If you have some building resentment and contempt about how he makes his way through life on a day-to-day basis, then you should decide if you think you can live with it, or make peace with it or if you can make peace with it. It's not fair to him to live his life in a position of contempt because he butterfingers his phone all the time / can't load the dishwasher right / could save a fifteen minutes each way on a commute if he could just get out of bed when the alarm goes off instead of snooze buttoning.... all that stuff. Non-optimal but in the end, lots of people live lovely lives full of friendship and love even though they really fucking suck at not hiding the mail in the back of a random cabinet because somebody's coming over and this is how they make the house "look nice".
But if he's ignoring you when it comes to not quitting his job in the middle of a pandemic to become a novelist, or his finances are a wreck because they're managed by a friend of a friend of his Dad's friend who takes 2% of assets under management every year as a fee, or he ignores you when he buys a truck because he needs it to haul mulch once a year that could be delivered for $30. This is Problem Zone and honestly, I'd send him packing over it, but that's me.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 1:42 PM on June 15, 2020 [23 favorites]
My fiancé in short, has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help.
Maybe you can ask yourself, "Do we maybe have a dynamic where I like to give advice and he doesn't always like to get advice? Or does he truly have no need for me or my opinions, advice or help." Because wow, that's a really strong statement, and if I truly felt someone had no need for me or my opinions, advice, or help -- that would really hurt. However, we as human beings don't always form a fully accurate picture of reality in the moment.
posted by panama joe at 1:42 PM on June 15, 2020 [34 favorites]
Maybe you can ask yourself, "Do we maybe have a dynamic where I like to give advice and he doesn't always like to get advice? Or does he truly have no need for me or my opinions, advice or help." Because wow, that's a really strong statement, and if I truly felt someone had no need for me or my opinions, advice, or help -- that would really hurt. However, we as human beings don't always form a fully accurate picture of reality in the moment.
posted by panama joe at 1:42 PM on June 15, 2020 [34 favorites]
I also want to call out this statement:
My fiancé in short, has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help.
My hubby probably thinks I feel this way too sometimes, but it's not true at all. He gets rankled when I don't always take his advice even when I ask for it, I think because it makes him feel like if I'm rejecting his advice that's the same thing as rejecting him. But asking for advice is not actually a contract to do whatever the advice is. In my case, I'm not looking for someone to tell me what to do. I'm looking for someone to have a conversation about what the possibilities are and come up with positives & negatives that I maybe wouldn't have thought of, so I can know which one feels right to me. That's incredibly valuable to me, so I have tried to do better at expressing my appreciation so hubby knows how valued his input is. Is there anything like a conversation happening around these instances?
On the other hand I've known people who charge ahead with reckless ideas and get bit in the ass every time despite being warned. That is also HARD to deal with and different from the situation I talked about above, especially when it's things around safety, things falling into lakes, etc. I don't know what to tell you if that's the case except that you have to decide what level of recklessness you can deal with in your life and if you need less of it or not.
posted by bleep at 2:00 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
My fiancé in short, has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help.
My hubby probably thinks I feel this way too sometimes, but it's not true at all. He gets rankled when I don't always take his advice even when I ask for it, I think because it makes him feel like if I'm rejecting his advice that's the same thing as rejecting him. But asking for advice is not actually a contract to do whatever the advice is. In my case, I'm not looking for someone to tell me what to do. I'm looking for someone to have a conversation about what the possibilities are and come up with positives & negatives that I maybe wouldn't have thought of, so I can know which one feels right to me. That's incredibly valuable to me, so I have tried to do better at expressing my appreciation so hubby knows how valued his input is. Is there anything like a conversation happening around these instances?
On the other hand I've known people who charge ahead with reckless ideas and get bit in the ass every time despite being warned. That is also HARD to deal with and different from the situation I talked about above, especially when it's things around safety, things falling into lakes, etc. I don't know what to tell you if that's the case except that you have to decide what level of recklessness you can deal with in your life and if you need less of it or not.
posted by bleep at 2:00 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think there are a lot of ways that this dynamic can get healthily resolved.
Don't get married until you arrive at one of them.
If this is a problem for you, get it out into the open. See if he respects it and is willing to be proactively involved in coming to a jointly acceptable resolution. This is the kind of thing that couples need to be able to do well.
If you can't, if he doesn't, if you two collectively cannot: do not, do NOT, make that major commitment hoping that it'll resolve itself later.
posted by Sublimity at 2:03 PM on June 15, 2020 [9 favorites]
Don't get married until you arrive at one of them.
If this is a problem for you, get it out into the open. See if he respects it and is willing to be proactively involved in coming to a jointly acceptable resolution. This is the kind of thing that couples need to be able to do well.
If you can't, if he doesn't, if you two collectively cannot: do not, do NOT, make that major commitment hoping that it'll resolve itself later.
posted by Sublimity at 2:03 PM on June 15, 2020 [9 favorites]
Y'know, I can think of a scenario where someone has say a heart attack on the boat and a cell phone call has an ambulance waiting for them at the dock which saves a life. I personally don't need someone who has contempt for how I live my life. Someone who thinks that my way of living is inferior to theirs is my definition of contempt. It's in how you present the scenario that seems to have both contempt (who would EVER do such a thing) and how sure you are that it's right. If you were just upset at the time you wrote the question, I totally get how heightened emotions at the time might have had you overstating things, I do that all the time myself! But I read the question's tone (which is hard via text) as you think your fiancé's inherent decision making is inferior to yours and that isn't healthy for either of you as he will retreat and you will push harder and then disengage/have contempt.
My partner gives me advice all the time. I actively ask for it or encourage her to keep me grounded or on the level. But if I don't accept it, that's okay, unless it was something that endangered both our lives or someone else's I suppose (hasn't come up!). I'm a man in a heterosexual relationship.
I'm glad someone else brought up the Gottmans because my partner and I did the 8 Dates book very shortly into our dating and we learned so much about trust/intimacy and then conflict in dates 1 and 2. It was really moving and has helped our relationship thrive. You should have an open dialogue and this book with its mini-dates is a great framework to address this.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:03 PM on June 15, 2020 [12 favorites]
My partner gives me advice all the time. I actively ask for it or encourage her to keep me grounded or on the level. But if I don't accept it, that's okay, unless it was something that endangered both our lives or someone else's I suppose (hasn't come up!). I'm a man in a heterosexual relationship.
I'm glad someone else brought up the Gottmans because my partner and I did the 8 Dates book very shortly into our dating and we learned so much about trust/intimacy and then conflict in dates 1 and 2. It was really moving and has helped our relationship thrive. You should have an open dialogue and this book with its mini-dates is a great framework to address this.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:03 PM on June 15, 2020 [12 favorites]
First, I would never say, "I told you so" because that does nothing to help the situation once the bad thing has happened. I may use the bad thing as an example in a future conversation about the risk of taking valuables somewhere, and I would try to be gentle about it. That is helpful in weighing your options and is not trying to make your partner feel bad, though they may have feelings about the example.
His stuff, his choice, basically. That is not the end of it however, because most couples have stuff (or will have stuff) that belongs to them together and if he refuses to heed your input about those things, that is a bad sign to me. So, does he take your opinion into account when you make plans together? What about spaces you will (or currently) share? If you state a need or demand (like I am hungry, we need to stop), does he listen to that? Those are the places that I would pay attention to, since they affect you directly. If he shows no regard for your wants and needs when it affects you, that is a deal breaker. If he only ignores your input when it does not affect you, that is a much smaller issue.
posted by soelo at 2:08 PM on June 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
His stuff, his choice, basically. That is not the end of it however, because most couples have stuff (or will have stuff) that belongs to them together and if he refuses to heed your input about those things, that is a bad sign to me. So, does he take your opinion into account when you make plans together? What about spaces you will (or currently) share? If you state a need or demand (like I am hungry, we need to stop), does he listen to that? Those are the places that I would pay attention to, since they affect you directly. If he shows no regard for your wants and needs when it affects you, that is a deal breaker. If he only ignores your input when it does not affect you, that is a much smaller issue.
posted by soelo at 2:08 PM on June 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
This dynamic is really common in hetero marriages (men balk at women’s advice). It’s a dealbreaker for you if it’s a dealbreaker for you!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 2:09 PM on June 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 2:09 PM on June 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help.
Yikes. Is he required to always take your advice? Do you ever ask if he wants your advice? Do you think your way is always the better way? Your example is not a good one for me to assess the problem here because I can't imagine feeling like i needed to give a grown human advice on where to take their cellphone. There will be lots of situtations you need to work together as partners and there are some situations you are gonna have to let go of.
I'm not allowed to say I told you so, but its in my mind.
if you are offering unsolicited advice and then sitting around waiting to say i told you so when he doesn't take it and fails, that is an unhealthy way to approach a relationship. I can't think of any situation I told you so is constructive.
Warriorqueen takes a good approach.
posted by domino at 2:11 PM on June 15, 2020 [15 favorites]
Yikes. Is he required to always take your advice? Do you ever ask if he wants your advice? Do you think your way is always the better way? Your example is not a good one for me to assess the problem here because I can't imagine feeling like i needed to give a grown human advice on where to take their cellphone. There will be lots of situtations you need to work together as partners and there are some situations you are gonna have to let go of.
I'm not allowed to say I told you so, but its in my mind.
if you are offering unsolicited advice and then sitting around waiting to say i told you so when he doesn't take it and fails, that is an unhealthy way to approach a relationship. I can't think of any situation I told you so is constructive.
Warriorqueen takes a good approach.
posted by domino at 2:11 PM on June 15, 2020 [15 favorites]
The desire to not be given unsolicited advice is pretty common. I'd say it's so common that it's almost universal.
Also the desire to give advice, whether or not it's solicited, is also very common. Maybe almost universal!
How do relationships succeed? By creating some sort of routine to accommodate both needs.
It can be - and often is - just a question of phrasing. Not "don't take your phone! It'll fall in duh" but rather "were you gonna leave your phone in the car? It'd suck if it fell right into the lake." Now he knows you think he should leave his phone, but you're not bossing him around. Also "do you want my advice?" sometimes works. Occasionally "please just humor me on this" is useful too, if something is really important to you.
Now this only works as long as you have faith in each others' judgment in general. If after I bring it up, my husband decides to do something like bring his phone along on the boat, I'll drop it, because I know he is not a moron or trying to "show" me. He's working with the same values, information, intelligence and priorities as me. He's come to a different conclusion this time; but it's not impossible that he's right. (Doesn't mean I wouldn't feel smug when he dropped the phone! I would. Heh.)
On the other hand, if I did not have faith in his judgment, and he didn't have faith in mine, then we wouldn't have the foundations for a successful relationship.
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:13 PM on June 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
Also the desire to give advice, whether or not it's solicited, is also very common. Maybe almost universal!
How do relationships succeed? By creating some sort of routine to accommodate both needs.
It can be - and often is - just a question of phrasing. Not "don't take your phone! It'll fall in duh" but rather "were you gonna leave your phone in the car? It'd suck if it fell right into the lake." Now he knows you think he should leave his phone, but you're not bossing him around. Also "do you want my advice?" sometimes works. Occasionally "please just humor me on this" is useful too, if something is really important to you.
Now this only works as long as you have faith in each others' judgment in general. If after I bring it up, my husband decides to do something like bring his phone along on the boat, I'll drop it, because I know he is not a moron or trying to "show" me. He's working with the same values, information, intelligence and priorities as me. He's come to a different conclusion this time; but it's not impossible that he's right. (Doesn't mean I wouldn't feel smug when he dropped the phone! I would. Heh.)
On the other hand, if I did not have faith in his judgment, and he didn't have faith in mine, then we wouldn't have the foundations for a successful relationship.
posted by fingersandtoes at 2:13 PM on June 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
This is a tricky question because it's not totally clear what kinds of things you're giving advice on. I'll approach this from the perspective of someone who's female-identified who mostly dates male-identified people, which changes things a bit, but still.
You are probably not like this, but if you're providing advice on things that either don't directly affect you or that he already does satisfactorily, you might be crossing a boundary. I don't want my partner telling me how I should manage my personal care (as has come up in a handful of my previous questions) in large part because the way I manage those parts of my life leads to a satisfactory outcome for both of us, at least most of the time. Nor do I think it's really their place when they don't necessarily have an informed opinion. On the same token, I'm not going to get involved in how someone loads the dishwasher so long as the dishes actually get clean. With the small stuff, it's helpful to consider "does their way actually work?" and "do I have an informed opinion?" before interfering.
This isn't about protecting me from my own recklessness; it's more a matter of being told what forms of exercise I should do or how I should take care of my very different hair type or what I should order at a restaurant or what brand of tampons I ought to use. Collaboration and collective problem-solving is great, but I doubt most people here would be cool with a constant patter of that kind of "advice". My understanding from most of my friends in long-term relationships is that this dynamic isn't present in their relationships and they wouldn't tolerate a relationship where it was present.
However, giving advice on things that have a much more significant impact on our shared lives? That's something I'm fine with and open to and frankly need a whole lot of the time. Like, you don't get to have an opinion on what I eat for lunch at work, but you do get to have an opinion about which job offer I accept. As a handful of people above have said, it's the legitimately shared issues that matter when it comes to him listening to you. Every couple is going to draw the line between shared and individual in a slightly different way, but I think that most recognize that their partners are, to some degree, individuals.
What this comes down to is: if you don't feel like your partner is capable of independently adulting to your standards, or you don't have general faith in their judgement, it might be difficult to be with them in the long run. If it's difficult for you to turn off the advice-giving when it's perhaps not appropriate, it'll be difficult for them to listen to you when you're providing input on something that affects you both.
posted by blerghamot at 2:15 PM on June 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
You are probably not like this, but if you're providing advice on things that either don't directly affect you or that he already does satisfactorily, you might be crossing a boundary. I don't want my partner telling me how I should manage my personal care (as has come up in a handful of my previous questions) in large part because the way I manage those parts of my life leads to a satisfactory outcome for both of us, at least most of the time. Nor do I think it's really their place when they don't necessarily have an informed opinion. On the same token, I'm not going to get involved in how someone loads the dishwasher so long as the dishes actually get clean. With the small stuff, it's helpful to consider "does their way actually work?" and "do I have an informed opinion?" before interfering.
This isn't about protecting me from my own recklessness; it's more a matter of being told what forms of exercise I should do or how I should take care of my very different hair type or what I should order at a restaurant or what brand of tampons I ought to use. Collaboration and collective problem-solving is great, but I doubt most people here would be cool with a constant patter of that kind of "advice". My understanding from most of my friends in long-term relationships is that this dynamic isn't present in their relationships and they wouldn't tolerate a relationship where it was present.
However, giving advice on things that have a much more significant impact on our shared lives? That's something I'm fine with and open to and frankly need a whole lot of the time. Like, you don't get to have an opinion on what I eat for lunch at work, but you do get to have an opinion about which job offer I accept. As a handful of people above have said, it's the legitimately shared issues that matter when it comes to him listening to you. Every couple is going to draw the line between shared and individual in a slightly different way, but I think that most recognize that their partners are, to some degree, individuals.
What this comes down to is: if you don't feel like your partner is capable of independently adulting to your standards, or you don't have general faith in their judgement, it might be difficult to be with them in the long run. If it's difficult for you to turn off the advice-giving when it's perhaps not appropriate, it'll be difficult for them to listen to you when you're providing input on something that affects you both.
posted by blerghamot at 2:15 PM on June 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
is it as big a problem as I see it as?
That is entirely up to you.
I fall very much on the “do not want advice“ side of the spectrum. Life is an adventure to be experienced by making my own choices and my own mistakes. If I feel the need for help I’ll ask for it. Someone constantly trying to offer me advice would be an awkward, annoying distraction.
I don’t know if that’s how your fiancé feels but I definitely suggest you find out. Otherwise neither of you are going to be very happy.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:17 PM on June 15, 2020 [16 favorites]
That is entirely up to you.
I fall very much on the “do not want advice“ side of the spectrum. Life is an adventure to be experienced by making my own choices and my own mistakes. If I feel the need for help I’ll ask for it. Someone constantly trying to offer me advice would be an awkward, annoying distraction.
I don’t know if that’s how your fiancé feels but I definitely suggest you find out. Otherwise neither of you are going to be very happy.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:17 PM on June 15, 2020 [16 favorites]
Yeah, I just was going to say what peacheater did, that accepting influence is a really important action to practice and a predictor of relationships' success. So you might read some of John and Julie Gottman's work together and learn more about how to practice actions that help you turn toward each other. I see what OnTheLastCastle is saying, too, that it sounds like you have developed some contempt for your partner that's coming through here. It's important to figure out how to work through that and lessen it through your actions as well as your fiancé's. The Gottmans have a lot to say about contempt and its role as a symptom of unhealthy relationship conditions.
Also, though, risk tolerance can absolutely differ among two people in a relationship. I personally tend to be rather risk-intolerant, though sometimes I take a calculated risk or say fuck it and just act. I do value spontaneity and surprise, but I don't like losing things or breaking things or wasting money. That probably comes from my specific response to growing up in an environment of scarcity with a high probability I'd be punished for mistakes (or my things would be taken or broken), whereas my brother and partner have each responded to such circumstances with an increased tolerance for risk and a willingness to jump into things quickly, without always thinking them through. Their impulsivity frustrates me a lot, but I also know testosterone tends to increase risk tolerance as well. While it doesn't excuse it, it does mean men are more likely to respond to the same situations women face with behavior consistent with higher risk tolerance. Men are capable of controlling that and learning to behave less impulsively, though.
In the case of taking the phone on the camping trip or not, I feel like your solution to not take the phone at all was unrealistic. As others have noted, there are many reasons someone might want to take their phone with them when they're in a remote area. I broke my ankle on a hiking trip at a state park, and while it was terrible no matter what, I was just lucky that it happened when I was close to the lodge, rather than when my phone was dead out on a rocky solo hike among the copperheads. I also took my phone on a canoe during that trip, before that all happened, to take sunset photos out on the water. The solution then was to make sure we brought zippered plastic bags to keep our phones in while we were out there, and that solution worked, even for my notoriously clumsy ex (who had once woken up and literally dropped his phone into a glass of water on the bedside table).
I would just keep in mind that often, when people are talking about their plans, they just want to be heard, rather than be told why their plans are problematic. You two need to figure out how to hear each other and accept each other and each other's influence, or you're going to continue having trouble.
posted by limeonaire at 2:25 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Also, though, risk tolerance can absolutely differ among two people in a relationship. I personally tend to be rather risk-intolerant, though sometimes I take a calculated risk or say fuck it and just act. I do value spontaneity and surprise, but I don't like losing things or breaking things or wasting money. That probably comes from my specific response to growing up in an environment of scarcity with a high probability I'd be punished for mistakes (or my things would be taken or broken), whereas my brother and partner have each responded to such circumstances with an increased tolerance for risk and a willingness to jump into things quickly, without always thinking them through. Their impulsivity frustrates me a lot, but I also know testosterone tends to increase risk tolerance as well. While it doesn't excuse it, it does mean men are more likely to respond to the same situations women face with behavior consistent with higher risk tolerance. Men are capable of controlling that and learning to behave less impulsively, though.
In the case of taking the phone on the camping trip or not, I feel like your solution to not take the phone at all was unrealistic. As others have noted, there are many reasons someone might want to take their phone with them when they're in a remote area. I broke my ankle on a hiking trip at a state park, and while it was terrible no matter what, I was just lucky that it happened when I was close to the lodge, rather than when my phone was dead out on a rocky solo hike among the copperheads. I also took my phone on a canoe during that trip, before that all happened, to take sunset photos out on the water. The solution then was to make sure we brought zippered plastic bags to keep our phones in while we were out there, and that solution worked, even for my notoriously clumsy ex (who had once woken up and literally dropped his phone into a glass of water on the bedside table).
I would just keep in mind that often, when people are talking about their plans, they just want to be heard, rather than be told why their plans are problematic. You two need to figure out how to hear each other and accept each other and each other's influence, or you're going to continue having trouble.
posted by limeonaire at 2:25 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think relationships are different. I'm used to a more laissez faire, independent style. My first answer to this was going to be a blunt "the actual problem here is that you're giving him advice that he hasn't asked for and doesn't want." If these are joint decisions, that's one thing. But you're micromanaging his packing?
If you had included any comments about how you selectively choose when to give advice, I'd see this differently, but you give advice whenever you think they need it, which doesn't sound very selective to me.
It may seem obvious to you that he needs advice not to take his phone, but that isn't obvious to me. I take my phone on all my camping trips and have not ruined it that way. What if he wanted to take pictures? Map his driving route? Listen to a podcast after his friend went to sleep? Use the iBird app for bird identification?
A lot of people like to make decisions on their own. They're not obligated to do what you say.
Caveats: I'm assuming that he gives you equal respect. You should get equal say in all joint decisions, and he shouldn't be telling you what to do either. I'd have a different answer if he was trying to be the decider for both of you.
posted by salvia at 2:27 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
If you had included any comments about how you selectively choose when to give advice, I'd see this differently, but you give advice whenever you think they need it, which doesn't sound very selective to me.
It may seem obvious to you that he needs advice not to take his phone, but that isn't obvious to me. I take my phone on all my camping trips and have not ruined it that way. What if he wanted to take pictures? Map his driving route? Listen to a podcast after his friend went to sleep? Use the iBird app for bird identification?
A lot of people like to make decisions on their own. They're not obligated to do what you say.
Caveats: I'm assuming that he gives you equal respect. You should get equal say in all joint decisions, and he shouldn't be telling you what to do either. I'd have a different answer if he was trying to be the decider for both of you.
posted by salvia at 2:27 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
I am a major advice-giver, so I feel your pain. I'd say my SO listens to me about 1/3 of the time, but he NEVER admits to having listened to me.
The "problem" might be simpler than you think: I've found that most people are just not interested in hearing my pearls of wisdom. This might not be a relationship problem per se, just part of dealing with other autonomous adults.
posted by 8603 at 2:49 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
The "problem" might be simpler than you think: I've found that most people are just not interested in hearing my pearls of wisdom. This might not be a relationship problem per se, just part of dealing with other autonomous adults.
posted by 8603 at 2:49 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Whether he needs your advice and help or not is for him to say, not you. It sounds like he has said he does not. and really, think about what you're saying when you think you're right in cases like the phone example. If he can afford to replace his phone, everything's fine. If he can't afford to replace his phone, still fine unless he needs one in an emergency. And where are you likely to encounter a sudden phone-needing emergency? Oh, someplace like a camping trip.
in short, if he had left his phone at home and broken his leg, instead of bringing it and losing it, he would be the one to tell you he told you so. unless he had died for lack of a phone, which is possible. the worst case of him being wrong was not nearly as bad as the worst case of you being wrong. You didn't know it would happen this way; you guessed. he made the right call.
Needing you and your opinions is a totally different thing from needing your help and advice, even though you group them all together. If he actually says he doesn't need you and doesn't want to hear your opinions -- real opinions about real things, not orders and directions -- then he doesn't want to be with you, perhaps doesn't respect you. but unless he's said that clearly, it isn't that dire. there's a lot more to you than the part of you that wants to tell him what to do. there's got to be.
But also, if you only want to be with someone who can't manage without your help, that is certainly a preference you can have and a decision you can make.
I'm not allowed to say I told you so
You're not a child, you're allowed to say whatever you like. He can tell you he doesn't want to hear it just like you can tell him you you know best. If he is actually forbidding you to say things, leave. otherwise--come on.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:02 PM on June 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
in short, if he had left his phone at home and broken his leg, instead of bringing it and losing it, he would be the one to tell you he told you so. unless he had died for lack of a phone, which is possible. the worst case of him being wrong was not nearly as bad as the worst case of you being wrong. You didn't know it would happen this way; you guessed. he made the right call.
Needing you and your opinions is a totally different thing from needing your help and advice, even though you group them all together. If he actually says he doesn't need you and doesn't want to hear your opinions -- real opinions about real things, not orders and directions -- then he doesn't want to be with you, perhaps doesn't respect you. but unless he's said that clearly, it isn't that dire. there's a lot more to you than the part of you that wants to tell him what to do. there's got to be.
But also, if you only want to be with someone who can't manage without your help, that is certainly a preference you can have and a decision you can make.
I'm not allowed to say I told you so
You're not a child, you're allowed to say whatever you like. He can tell you he doesn't want to hear it just like you can tell him you you know best. If he is actually forbidding you to say things, leave. otherwise--come on.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:02 PM on June 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
It's true, as some people are saying, that it's good to be able to accept and consider other people's ideas and be willing to collaborate. I can't tell from your question how good you are at doing that, but I can make a guess based on the way you phrased it. You didn't say, "I always welcome and consider his advice." You didn't mention ever taking advice yourself at all, just that you like to offer it. And I can guess about the way you offer it, based on your description: "I told him not to take his phone." (Not "I suggested it might be safer to leave his phone at home.")
It's probably safe to say that every member of every couple can think of multiple examples of times when their partner should have listened to their advice and they felt like saying, "I told you so" afterwards. It isn't necessarily a big problem; it's part of the complicated and often annoying reality of living with another person. If he really doesn't ever care about your opinion at all, that sounds like a big problem. And if you don't care about his opinion, that would likewise be a big problem. Both those problems sound equally likely based on the limited information you gave us.
posted by Redstart at 3:11 PM on June 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's probably safe to say that every member of every couple can think of multiple examples of times when their partner should have listened to their advice and they felt like saying, "I told you so" afterwards. It isn't necessarily a big problem; it's part of the complicated and often annoying reality of living with another person. If he really doesn't ever care about your opinion at all, that sounds like a big problem. And if you don't care about his opinion, that would likewise be a big problem. Both those problems sound equally likely based on the limited information you gave us.
posted by Redstart at 3:11 PM on June 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm gonna be totally honest here.
The way you've framed this question makes you look like the bad guy and doesn't paint YOUR communication style in a very positive light.
Your advice doesn't sound like advice. It sounds like you giving instructions based on your opinions and when they don't get followed, you take it personally.
Take someone in my life for example. They NEVER ask me if I want advice or input. They just barrel into conversations with, "You should/shouldn't," or "I recommend," and so on. I immediately chafe and stop listening because excuse you, what if I have already considered this, what if I have already (likely!!) thought this through? I don't seek them out for input because I don't want to be bossed around.
I want a dialogue, and I want the option to opt out.
You feeling the need to say I told you so when something goes wrong?
100% shitty and not loving.
So. You've asked for advice. Here's what I am thinking. I think it would be a good idea to say to your partner, "I have noticed that when we are discussing something that involves a decision on your part, I give input, and you say you can handle it. I agree, you can handle it -- and I admire that about you. There are times where I do want to be part of the conversation and share my input. The same would go for you with me. What do you think?"
And then listen.
Good luck to you. I hope you and your partner find the right balance for both of you.
But I also hope you find a way to process some of the contempt you have for your partner because it is going to get worse unless you reframe this communication issue asap.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 3:13 PM on June 15, 2020 [27 favorites]
The way you've framed this question makes you look like the bad guy and doesn't paint YOUR communication style in a very positive light.
Your advice doesn't sound like advice. It sounds like you giving instructions based on your opinions and when they don't get followed, you take it personally.
Take someone in my life for example. They NEVER ask me if I want advice or input. They just barrel into conversations with, "You should/shouldn't," or "I recommend," and so on. I immediately chafe and stop listening because excuse you, what if I have already considered this, what if I have already (likely!!) thought this through? I don't seek them out for input because I don't want to be bossed around.
I want a dialogue, and I want the option to opt out.
You feeling the need to say I told you so when something goes wrong?
100% shitty and not loving.
So. You've asked for advice. Here's what I am thinking. I think it would be a good idea to say to your partner, "I have noticed that when we are discussing something that involves a decision on your part, I give input, and you say you can handle it. I agree, you can handle it -- and I admire that about you. There are times where I do want to be part of the conversation and share my input. The same would go for you with me. What do you think?"
And then listen.
Good luck to you. I hope you and your partner find the right balance for both of you.
But I also hope you find a way to process some of the contempt you have for your partner because it is going to get worse unless you reframe this communication issue asap.
posted by Kitchen Witch at 3:13 PM on June 15, 2020 [27 favorites]
I have areas where I will ask for my wife's advice or opinions and areas where I don't. If I'm going camping then I'd likely tune out any advice she might give me anyway (fwiw, take the phone but keep it in a ziploc bag while in the canoe - if it falls in the water and sinks that's life). Anything about the house, kids or anything "big" I'd ask her about. Over time I've learned to listen to her more. My wife tends to ask for my opinion a lot more often for smaller things but I feel like she only does it so that she can decide what not to do. Like I said do X so she'll do Y. I am sure there is an element of confirmation bias in this though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:40 PM on June 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:40 PM on June 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
I can't tell if this is a problem. To me, your example suggests the problem is you giving unsolicited advice on things that are none of your business. I'm a woman btw. An adult woman who doesn't need anyone to tell them how to pack for a camping trip. If I have a question I'll ask, otherwise mind your own business.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:52 PM on June 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 3:52 PM on June 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
For instance I told him not to take his phone on a recent camping trip and he did anyway and it fell out of the boat into the lake
Oh man this literally happened in my relationship YESTERDAY. I am advice person, boyfriend is "Thanks for your opinion, I will probably ignore it" guy. I sometimes fume, or used to. But I kinda realized that, well, I would rather be happy than right. He's a really happy guy, doesn't usually mind if a thing goes sideways (he fell out of his kayak TWICE, his phone was ok but it might not have been!) and important part: he does not blame me.
I have had other people in my life--looking at you Bad Mom and Dad--who were always looking for other people to blame and I wound up pretty defensive and trying to plan out scenarios so I could find advanced solutions and... it sucked, it was tiring and I'm still shaking it off. My partner is not those people. If he's complaining about a thing I may ask "Hey looking for advice or just support?" If he's doing a thing that I think might be an ACTUAL issue, I might step in (he's bad with timekeeping so if he's got a plane to catch he gets All the Advice) But in general he's kinda happy doing it his own way and he's fine with us taking the time to figure out OUR way if we're doing a thing together.
And I also had to realize about myself, my constant advice was also kind of a manifestation of anxiety, thinking of worst case scenarios and thinking maybe other people just weren't thinking as hard as I was. And that wasn't great for me and it wasn't a great assumption to put on them. It can be hard sometimes to see someone walking into something that you thought they maybe could have avoided, but it's also often a thing that happens, is ok and is usually not that bad. Being in a situation where you're micromanaging or scorekeeping is kinda worse. So to answer your question... there is a balance to be found and if you don't think your partner is listening, that's not great. But if they're listening but want to make their own decisions about things that only affect them, it's ok. If they're not open to making group decisions about things that affect the group, that's not great. Figuring out how to tell the difference is a thing sometimes couples counselors (or equivalent) can be helpful for.
posted by jessamyn at 3:55 PM on June 15, 2020 [21 favorites]
Oh man this literally happened in my relationship YESTERDAY. I am advice person, boyfriend is "Thanks for your opinion, I will probably ignore it" guy. I sometimes fume, or used to. But I kinda realized that, well, I would rather be happy than right. He's a really happy guy, doesn't usually mind if a thing goes sideways (he fell out of his kayak TWICE, his phone was ok but it might not have been!) and important part: he does not blame me.
I have had other people in my life--looking at you Bad Mom and Dad--who were always looking for other people to blame and I wound up pretty defensive and trying to plan out scenarios so I could find advanced solutions and... it sucked, it was tiring and I'm still shaking it off. My partner is not those people. If he's complaining about a thing I may ask "Hey looking for advice or just support?" If he's doing a thing that I think might be an ACTUAL issue, I might step in (he's bad with timekeeping so if he's got a plane to catch he gets All the Advice) But in general he's kinda happy doing it his own way and he's fine with us taking the time to figure out OUR way if we're doing a thing together.
And I also had to realize about myself, my constant advice was also kind of a manifestation of anxiety, thinking of worst case scenarios and thinking maybe other people just weren't thinking as hard as I was. And that wasn't great for me and it wasn't a great assumption to put on them. It can be hard sometimes to see someone walking into something that you thought they maybe could have avoided, but it's also often a thing that happens, is ok and is usually not that bad. Being in a situation where you're micromanaging or scorekeeping is kinda worse. So to answer your question... there is a balance to be found and if you don't think your partner is listening, that's not great. But if they're listening but want to make their own decisions about things that only affect them, it's ok. If they're not open to making group decisions about things that affect the group, that's not great. Figuring out how to tell the difference is a thing sometimes couples counselors (or equivalent) can be helpful for.
posted by jessamyn at 3:55 PM on June 15, 2020 [21 favorites]
I think the right next move is to buy him a floating waterproof phone case.
posted by salvia at 4:32 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by salvia at 4:32 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm not allowed to say I told you so
Allowing that is something that is missing from your life, trying to squeeze it out of your primary relationship may not be a good idea.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:40 PM on June 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
Allowing that is something that is missing from your life, trying to squeeze it out of your primary relationship may not be a good idea.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:40 PM on June 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think you haven't really given us enough information to go on; I could imagine four or five different relationship dynamics from the single example you've given, and they range from reasonably-healthy-could-maybe-use-a-communication-tune-up to run-away-now. You may want to come back with some more examples.
For the specific example you gave, did you "tell him not to" do a thing or did you point out that it might be a problem for him to figure out how to address? Did he ask for your advice in the first place? Did he brush off or scoff at your thoughts or did he think it over but decide the risks were worth the benefits for him, and did he reasonably explain why? Does the loss of the phone affect you in some material way (like do you have to pay out the nose for a new one now or was he unable to communicate with you about something important) or is it really his problem that you could benefit from deciding not to care so much about? Is he blaming you or expecting you to clean up his lost phone issue, or does he cheerfully accept that he rolled the dice and lost on this one, and that's on him to fix? Do you have advice-giving mismatches in your other relationships with friends and family, or is it a specific problem with this person? Lots of things to consider here that would affect how I felt about that scenario personally.
Since you ask about other couples - we're a cis man and woman, one bisexual and one queer. Our dynamic can, left untended, be a little stereotypically gendered in that way where I might just want to vent or talk my way through a problem, and his instinct is to jump in and offer advice that I didn't ask for. I'm much less likely to offer him unsolicited advice. But we're both aware that's not the greatest dynamic - I need to be able to talk about my situations and emotions without him dropping advice in my lap that I didn't solicit, and also he sometimes wants advice but has trouble asking for it and then doesn't get it because I'm trying too hard to stay in my lane. So we both work on that; I try to make our relationship a safe place for him to ask for and get advice or help (and to accept gracefully that sometimes my offered advice isn't going to be the right advice for him), and he tries to really pay attention to whether advice is what I'm actually asking for.
All of which is to say the give-and-take of advice was never a big problem for us but it has been a small one occasionally over the years, and both of us working together in good faith have mostly been able to address it in a way that keeps it from ever being a big problem. It's certainly a dynamic that is possible, for some people in some relationships. Whether it is in yours, I couldn't say. Asking him what he thinks about it (sometime when you're not in the middle of a heated thing about whether he took your advice on a specific issue) would be a good way to start figuring that out.
posted by Stacey at 4:49 PM on June 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
For the specific example you gave, did you "tell him not to" do a thing or did you point out that it might be a problem for him to figure out how to address? Did he ask for your advice in the first place? Did he brush off or scoff at your thoughts or did he think it over but decide the risks were worth the benefits for him, and did he reasonably explain why? Does the loss of the phone affect you in some material way (like do you have to pay out the nose for a new one now or was he unable to communicate with you about something important) or is it really his problem that you could benefit from deciding not to care so much about? Is he blaming you or expecting you to clean up his lost phone issue, or does he cheerfully accept that he rolled the dice and lost on this one, and that's on him to fix? Do you have advice-giving mismatches in your other relationships with friends and family, or is it a specific problem with this person? Lots of things to consider here that would affect how I felt about that scenario personally.
Since you ask about other couples - we're a cis man and woman, one bisexual and one queer. Our dynamic can, left untended, be a little stereotypically gendered in that way where I might just want to vent or talk my way through a problem, and his instinct is to jump in and offer advice that I didn't ask for. I'm much less likely to offer him unsolicited advice. But we're both aware that's not the greatest dynamic - I need to be able to talk about my situations and emotions without him dropping advice in my lap that I didn't solicit, and also he sometimes wants advice but has trouble asking for it and then doesn't get it because I'm trying too hard to stay in my lane. So we both work on that; I try to make our relationship a safe place for him to ask for and get advice or help (and to accept gracefully that sometimes my offered advice isn't going to be the right advice for him), and he tries to really pay attention to whether advice is what I'm actually asking for.
All of which is to say the give-and-take of advice was never a big problem for us but it has been a small one occasionally over the years, and both of us working together in good faith have mostly been able to address it in a way that keeps it from ever being a big problem. It's certainly a dynamic that is possible, for some people in some relationships. Whether it is in yours, I couldn't say. Asking him what he thinks about it (sometime when you're not in the middle of a heated thing about whether he took your advice on a specific issue) would be a good way to start figuring that out.
posted by Stacey at 4:49 PM on June 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
My old marriage counselor used to say something along the lines of, “If you want the message to be read, put it in the right envelope.” Doesn’t matter if your message is the best, or is right ; if the envelope doesn’t take into account what communication styles do or don’t work for the recipient, the message is doomed to never get read.
I learned, far too late, that certain things I’d say to my ex-wife simply would never ever be heard, because (a) my message-envelope triggered some unresolved stuff about how her father communicated to her, and (b) I was a stubborn bastard that thought being “right” or “knowing better” would eventually win out. I was wrong! It is far better to be Kind than to be Right.
Sounds like it’s not too late for you to try different approaches. Not that it’s all on you, but, you might find a new envelope will produce different results. Focus on what approach is *effective* in achieving a successful outcome for *both* of you.
Also, 2nding what Sublimity said above.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:11 PM on June 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
I learned, far too late, that certain things I’d say to my ex-wife simply would never ever be heard, because (a) my message-envelope triggered some unresolved stuff about how her father communicated to her, and (b) I was a stubborn bastard that thought being “right” or “knowing better” would eventually win out. I was wrong! It is far better to be Kind than to be Right.
Sounds like it’s not too late for you to try different approaches. Not that it’s all on you, but, you might find a new envelope will produce different results. Focus on what approach is *effective* in achieving a successful outcome for *both* of you.
Also, 2nding what Sublimity said above.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:11 PM on June 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
Or: what fingersandtoes said.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:25 PM on June 15, 2020
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:25 PM on June 15, 2020
I strongly agree with everythings_interrelated that it depends what kind of things you are "giving him advice" about.
Side note: If you expect him to do what you say, that's not "giving advice," that's "telling him what to do." To truly give advice (a gift of a recommendation) you must be ok whether or not he follows it.
Adults shouldn't be telling each other where to take their own phones. You can tell him, "Babe, do what you want, but it's really not in our budget to replace a phone this month...want to put it in a ziplock?" But adults can take their phones on a camping trip if they want. (My husband and I are big campers and backpackers and we always take our phones. My husband has taken his phone to the summit of major mountains over glacial crevasses. It's ok.)
posted by amaire at 5:45 PM on June 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
Side note: If you expect him to do what you say, that's not "giving advice," that's "telling him what to do." To truly give advice (a gift of a recommendation) you must be ok whether or not he follows it.
Adults shouldn't be telling each other where to take their own phones. You can tell him, "Babe, do what you want, but it's really not in our budget to replace a phone this month...want to put it in a ziplock?" But adults can take their phones on a camping trip if they want. (My husband and I are big campers and backpackers and we always take our phones. My husband has taken his phone to the summit of major mountains over glacial crevasses. It's ok.)
posted by amaire at 5:45 PM on June 15, 2020 [8 favorites]
If it's things that affect you, like, say...how he spends money or how he loads the dishwasher or how he raises a shared child, then you should have influence with him, and he should respect your opinion, needs, and desires, but it shouldn't be you "giving him advice."
It's one thing to say: "I want us to save more together, can we talk about that?" Or, "Sweetheart, it really bugs me when you put the bowls right side up because they keep water in them, can we try to load them upside down?" or "I know [toddler] is so tough right now. I've been trying distracting him with a book when he gets like this and it seems to work sometimes." It's another to say, "You need to stop eating out so much." or "Don't load the dishwasher like that, do it this way." or "Don't put him in timeout, give him a book." The former is how you talk to a partner you respect, the other is disrespectfully telling another adult what to do. If you don't treat him with respect, of course he will ignore your opinion.
posted by amaire at 5:50 PM on June 15, 2020 [7 favorites]
It's one thing to say: "I want us to save more together, can we talk about that?" Or, "Sweetheart, it really bugs me when you put the bowls right side up because they keep water in them, can we try to load them upside down?" or "I know [toddler] is so tough right now. I've been trying distracting him with a book when he gets like this and it seems to work sometimes." It's another to say, "You need to stop eating out so much." or "Don't load the dishwasher like that, do it this way." or "Don't put him in timeout, give him a book." The former is how you talk to a partner you respect, the other is disrespectfully telling another adult what to do. If you don't treat him with respect, of course he will ignore your opinion.
posted by amaire at 5:50 PM on June 15, 2020 [7 favorites]
One persons "giving advice" can easily tip over into another persons "trying to control everything I do".
There are good responses here on better ways to approach this, and by the sound of your question, I think you need to pick your battles. Save the unsolicited advice for really important stuff, and as someone else has mentioned, the advice you do give should be a gift, not an order.
Nobody wants to go through their day being constantly told they're doing every little thing wrong.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 6:43 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
There are good responses here on better ways to approach this, and by the sound of your question, I think you need to pick your battles. Save the unsolicited advice for really important stuff, and as someone else has mentioned, the advice you do give should be a gift, not an order.
Nobody wants to go through their day being constantly told they're doing every little thing wrong.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 6:43 PM on June 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Came in to say exactly the above. There’s giving advice and then there’s being controlling.
From the examples you sound like you think you’re right all the time. That would certainly get “I think I can handle it” from others.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:36 AM on June 16, 2020
From the examples you sound like you think you’re right all the time. That would certainly get “I think I can handle it” from others.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:36 AM on June 16, 2020
For instance I told him not to take his phone on a recent camping trip and he did anyway and it fell out of the boat into the lake
Wow, seriously? OK, obviously this is just one example, but you surely must have chosen this as something where you expected it would cast your "advice" in a positive light.
I go camping, I know a lot of people who go camping, and everyone I know thinks it's a very good idea to take your phone with you camping. I know some people who go on multi-day rafting trips and they not only bring their phones, but have an extra phone with satellite service that works in remote areas. I imagine you are really puzzled by why people would do such a thing but most adults realize that a phone is a very useful tool for looking up directions, taking photos, or summoning help in an emergency.
Personally I would consider it a huge red flag if someone I was in a relationship with was ordering me to not take my phone on a trip. I would wonder why they thought I couldn't decide for myself that I would need my phone, and I would wonder if they were wanting access to my phone when I was away from it for an extended period of time. But maybe your fiancé realized that you have so little experience with the world that you can't imagine why someone would want to bring their phone with them and is willing to give you a break.
Or maybe the camping thing is an isolated incident of you giving exceptionally bad advice, and all your other advice has been genuinely good and helpful. You'll have to determine that for yourself.
My fiancé in short, has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help
That sounds like a really painful situation to be in and you need to consider whether this is the right relationship for you. Something can be great for your fiance without it being great for you, maybe you should pretend a friend has written this question and come to you to ask for your advice on what to do in this relationship, what would you tell your friend to do?
posted by yohko at 3:22 AM on June 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
Wow, seriously? OK, obviously this is just one example, but you surely must have chosen this as something where you expected it would cast your "advice" in a positive light.
I go camping, I know a lot of people who go camping, and everyone I know thinks it's a very good idea to take your phone with you camping. I know some people who go on multi-day rafting trips and they not only bring their phones, but have an extra phone with satellite service that works in remote areas. I imagine you are really puzzled by why people would do such a thing but most adults realize that a phone is a very useful tool for looking up directions, taking photos, or summoning help in an emergency.
Personally I would consider it a huge red flag if someone I was in a relationship with was ordering me to not take my phone on a trip. I would wonder why they thought I couldn't decide for myself that I would need my phone, and I would wonder if they were wanting access to my phone when I was away from it for an extended period of time. But maybe your fiancé realized that you have so little experience with the world that you can't imagine why someone would want to bring their phone with them and is willing to give you a break.
Or maybe the camping thing is an isolated incident of you giving exceptionally bad advice, and all your other advice has been genuinely good and helpful. You'll have to determine that for yourself.
My fiancé in short, has no need for me or my opinions, advice or help
That sounds like a really painful situation to be in and you need to consider whether this is the right relationship for you. Something can be great for your fiance without it being great for you, maybe you should pretend a friend has written this question and come to you to ask for your advice on what to do in this relationship, what would you tell your friend to do?
posted by yohko at 3:22 AM on June 16, 2020 [11 favorites]
> he says "I think I can handle it"
not trying to pile on here...but it's actually quite a polite way of deflecting unwanted advice tbf
I wonder what his Ask would look like?
posted by rd45 at 4:02 AM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
not trying to pile on here...but it's actually quite a polite way of deflecting unwanted advice tbf
I wonder what his Ask would look like?
posted by rd45 at 4:02 AM on June 16, 2020 [7 favorites]
You are free to give advice, but others are free not to take it. The same way that you are free to make your own decisions.
The thing about advice is that it’s often best to ration it out. If you are putting in your two cents a little too often, others probably will get used to not listening to you.
My advice to you, which you could ignore is:
1. Ration it out. people close to you probably have opinions on your life too. But aren’t sharing all of them with you because you might not be receptive. Work on your empathy to figure out when people want your advice or not.
2. Let it go/Live and let live. advice isn’t commands or orders
3. Before saying “I told you so”, Ask yourself if you would rather be right and at what cost. You being right means fiancé needs new phone
4. Watch your tone. (which falls back in to 1 and 2) You might unknowingly sound like you are barking orders, especially when you feel like nobody is listening to you. No matter how great the advice, if people dislike your tone, they won’t do as you say. Which makes you more frustrated and more insistent.
5. Try to understand why someone doesn’t want to take your advice and better explain your position as well. Try to find a middle ground (like ziplock bags for phone).
posted by Neekee at 5:57 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
The thing about advice is that it’s often best to ration it out. If you are putting in your two cents a little too often, others probably will get used to not listening to you.
My advice to you, which you could ignore is:
1. Ration it out. people close to you probably have opinions on your life too. But aren’t sharing all of them with you because you might not be receptive. Work on your empathy to figure out when people want your advice or not.
2. Let it go/Live and let live. advice isn’t commands or orders
3. Before saying “I told you so”, Ask yourself if you would rather be right and at what cost. You being right means fiancé needs new phone
4. Watch your tone. (which falls back in to 1 and 2) You might unknowingly sound like you are barking orders, especially when you feel like nobody is listening to you. No matter how great the advice, if people dislike your tone, they won’t do as you say. Which makes you more frustrated and more insistent.
5. Try to understand why someone doesn’t want to take your advice and better explain your position as well. Try to find a middle ground (like ziplock bags for phone).
posted by Neekee at 5:57 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Advice columnist Amy Dickenson has a quote: “Unsolicited advice is always self-serving.”
I am unclear here if your partner is even asking for advice, or if you’re just constantly giving it without solicitation. I have someone in my life who does this a lot, and it comes off as though he’a constantly trying to show how much smarter he is than everyone else. It’s exhausting being treated like that. I’m not saying YOU think you are smarter than your partner, but you might consider how you are coming off to them.
I also used to get super annoyed when my husband would ask for my input and then promptly ignore it. What’s even the point of asking? But i have largely made peace with that because its not worth being annoyed over. I have also learned: Don’t “should” on other people.
posted by Brittanie at 6:36 AM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am unclear here if your partner is even asking for advice, or if you’re just constantly giving it without solicitation. I have someone in my life who does this a lot, and it comes off as though he’a constantly trying to show how much smarter he is than everyone else. It’s exhausting being treated like that. I’m not saying YOU think you are smarter than your partner, but you might consider how you are coming off to them.
I also used to get super annoyed when my husband would ask for my input and then promptly ignore it. What’s even the point of asking? But i have largely made peace with that because its not worth being annoyed over. I have also learned: Don’t “should” on other people.
posted by Brittanie at 6:36 AM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
As someone above said, I am going to answer this through my own experience.
My partner is an optimizer and has a lot of Opinions about how things should be done. This bumps up badly against some of my emotional buttons and aside from that that there is the fact that somehow I survived quite well as an independent adult for a couple of decades before we got together. But a large part of his behavior is about him, not about me, just as (part of) my reaction is about my own emotional stuff.
Sometimes he is right. Often his way is slightly better but my way is just fine. Sometimes I am right. Sometimes it just doesn’t matter. What has helped - and it took many years for us to get here - is a combination of factors. We have talked about this a lot over several years. We joke about it a lot, and sometimes we argue about it. Sometimes I do what he wants because he is right. Sometimes I do what he wants because he cares more than I do. Sometimes I do what I want because I care enough, or just because my way is good enough and I don’t want to be told what to do. He also makes a point of asking my opinion, and sometimes encouraging me to express an opinion, even if it’s not what he wants or I’m a bit apprehensive to do so. And then he respects that opinion.
Maybe you are wrong, maybe he is wrong. More likely you are just two different people with different approaches to life. I would not get married until (together) you’ve worked out this dynamic between you or at least are well on your way to doing so. You don’t have to make it go away entirely but you do have to find a way to work with and around it.
posted by argyle sock at 8:06 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
My partner is an optimizer and has a lot of Opinions about how things should be done. This bumps up badly against some of my emotional buttons and aside from that that there is the fact that somehow I survived quite well as an independent adult for a couple of decades before we got together. But a large part of his behavior is about him, not about me, just as (part of) my reaction is about my own emotional stuff.
Sometimes he is right. Often his way is slightly better but my way is just fine. Sometimes I am right. Sometimes it just doesn’t matter. What has helped - and it took many years for us to get here - is a combination of factors. We have talked about this a lot over several years. We joke about it a lot, and sometimes we argue about it. Sometimes I do what he wants because he is right. Sometimes I do what he wants because he cares more than I do. Sometimes I do what I want because I care enough, or just because my way is good enough and I don’t want to be told what to do. He also makes a point of asking my opinion, and sometimes encouraging me to express an opinion, even if it’s not what he wants or I’m a bit apprehensive to do so. And then he respects that opinion.
Maybe you are wrong, maybe he is wrong. More likely you are just two different people with different approaches to life. I would not get married until (together) you’ve worked out this dynamic between you or at least are well on your way to doing so. You don’t have to make it go away entirely but you do have to find a way to work with and around it.
posted by argyle sock at 8:06 AM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
Do you give advice often, or just once in a while but attaching great importance to it when you do? You might take inventory to see what your own pattern is and/or ask your partner if it's a problem for him. That he says, "I think I can handle it" to you suggests that it's something he's noticed, at least. If you do it a lot, it can definitely come across as controlling and make people think, "Oh they're doing that thing again" and discount whatever the advice is. Picking your battles is a good thing to consider here.
If you think he makes tons of mistakes in a way that really bothers you, then there's a decision you get to make about how much to let go and when to end the relationship.
posted by BibiRose at 8:26 AM on June 16, 2020
If you think he makes tons of mistakes in a way that really bothers you, then there's a decision you get to make about how much to let go and when to end the relationship.
posted by BibiRose at 8:26 AM on June 16, 2020
We don’t really have a lot of data about what’s going on here. But I do want to offer one other potential dynamic that may be going on and that often appears in heterosexual relationships.
Often men have not had to be as responsible for the consequences of their actions as women have for the same period of time, and it manifests as them making bad choices and then expecting other people to manage the fallout. So: if he’s constantly careless with things and then having to rebuy them with family money, then yeah, advice to just leave the phone in the car is good advice. (Who brings a phone on a boat?)
But also: this sort of thing often leads to a “mom” dynamic which isn’t good for relationships, where you’re giving responsible advice and they chafe under it and rebel because you’re not technically in a position over them and most of the advice goes one way and not the other.
Only you can decide whether being in a relationship with someone who needs constant saving from themselves is a good idea or not.
posted by corb at 8:48 AM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Often men have not had to be as responsible for the consequences of their actions as women have for the same period of time, and it manifests as them making bad choices and then expecting other people to manage the fallout. So: if he’s constantly careless with things and then having to rebuy them with family money, then yeah, advice to just leave the phone in the car is good advice. (Who brings a phone on a boat?)
But also: this sort of thing often leads to a “mom” dynamic which isn’t good for relationships, where you’re giving responsible advice and they chafe under it and rebel because you’re not technically in a position over them and most of the advice goes one way and not the other.
Only you can decide whether being in a relationship with someone who needs constant saving from themselves is a good idea or not.
posted by corb at 8:48 AM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
Corb, a lot of people bring their phone on boats! Some have waterproof cases, some don't. As many people have said above, taking your phone on a camping trip is not one of those obviously "don't do this ever" kind of issues.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 9:12 AM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 9:12 AM on June 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
The Gottman piece linked by peacheater left me feeling seen and it provides an example of why I'm a divorcé -- we were the wrong people for each other (and I wish her happiness that I couldn't give) -- but you deserve someone whose life is richer and better off for listening to your viewpoint and incorporating you in their life. On leaving my marriage, I said "we should be greater than the sum of our parts, spiraling around our differences as peers so that their strengths cover my weaknesses and vice versa." Your strengths could cover his weaknesses, if he'd let you. I'm going to infer that's because of fragile and toxic masculinity [checks handbook of toxic masculinity] which is really only resolved [checks handbook of restorative justice] by burning the patriarchy to the ground, a truth and reconciliation process and restorative justice for its victims.
posted by k3ninho at 12:33 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by k3ninho at 12:33 PM on June 16, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the assumptions that this is just "a man thing." I want to reiterate that going by the only example we have, people of both sexes have said they would have a problem taking the advice described. Perhaps it will help the OP in sorting through things, to reflect on other types of relationships in their life and see if this is a problem for them in more than just the relationship with their partner.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:04 PM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:04 PM on June 16, 2020 [5 favorites]
I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the assumptions that this is just "a man thing."
yeah that's really insulting (as if women just love being submissive and being told what to do in the little things of life, and only men mind because they're rebellious little boys at heart. actually, we (women) hate it!)
in heterosexual relationships the only specific interpersonal thing men have to take from women with a smile that women don't also have to take from men is long lectures on feminism. that, they just have to endure and deal with it. but camping advice is not gendered in this way, never mind a constant stream of unsolicited instructions on all aspects of life.
thinking you're right doesn't mean you're right, and being right is not an excuse.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:34 PM on June 16, 2020 [3 favorites]
As mentioned above, there's a wide spectrum to interpret this question.
As for taking advice, the thing is.. not the following of advice, but the being listened to and taken seriously. If one listens and decides otherwise, it's better than just being disregarded..
(As far as giving advice goes, I've known some pretty stubborn people, and I'm kinda stubborn myself. I'm a sympathetic listener, but if you're gonna dump, don't expect me to bite my tongue..)
posted by ovvl at 6:29 PM on June 16, 2020
As for taking advice, the thing is.. not the following of advice, but the being listened to and taken seriously. If one listens and decides otherwise, it's better than just being disregarded..
(As far as giving advice goes, I've known some pretty stubborn people, and I'm kinda stubborn myself. I'm a sympathetic listener, but if you're gonna dump, don't expect me to bite my tongue..)
posted by ovvl at 6:29 PM on June 16, 2020
Your question gave me a bit of anxiety because -- while I'm not assuming anything about your motives, and it could simply be my own history -- I've been with people who think that their opinion is the right one, primarily because they focus on the times that they were right as a sort of confirmation bias that the other person is always wrong. Really, I don't want to read overly much into your situation (relationships are too complex and holistic to be summarized in a question, and I think AskMe errs on the side of "knowing" with too little information at times), but it would be a red flag for me if someone was tagging my autonomous choices that way, because it feels like potential hubris in a relationship that is demoralizing and does not allow for recognition of the fact that it's okay to be wrong at times. At the end of the day, it really is an issue of whether he dismisses your advice as if it's no good ever, or if you simply consider him to be irresponsible because he's not taking your advice at times that you want him to. If its the former, it's a red flag for you. If it's the latter, it's (potentially) a red flag for him. The way forward is really to communicate in ways that respect the two-way give-and-take of autonomous individuals who may make mistakes in what they decide to do -- with appreciative feedback by the recipient of the advice (regardless of whether it was taken), but also tact and acceptance by the advice giver for when suggestions may be appreciated and when they're not. Not wanting advice ever is a communication problem; wanting to give advice all the time (as if another person always needs it) is a communication problem; and as with most things, the answer is finding a balance that seeks to listen and understand first before being understood, and also being caring and accepting for what people freely choose to do, because it's a-okay to love people who make mistakes at times. Also, you seem to be a bit like me, in that I like to give advice, because I'm a teacher at heart. I've had to learn the hard way that if I front-load my conversations too much with my "expertise," it's a quick way to squelch potential dialog and intimacy in a relationship, because the recipient perceives my opinion of them as someone who isn't as knowledgeable as they should be. This is rarely how I think, but I've noticed that how quickly this seems to happen has a direct correlation with how quick on the trigger I am to correct, advise, or criticize.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:05 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:05 PM on June 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm a little uncomfortable with some of the assumptions that this is just "a man thing."
I am also uncomfortable with this. It is a person/communication thing. Of course intimate partner relationships are different, but I like the suggestion to also look at other relationships.
posted by argyle sock at 6:47 AM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
I am also uncomfortable with this. It is a person/communication thing. Of course intimate partner relationships are different, but I like the suggestion to also look at other relationships.
posted by argyle sock at 6:47 AM on June 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It is a problem, but not the way you see it.
I'm an advice-giver too, which is why I spend time here answering questions on AskMe. With my partner, I have largely adapted to the adage "would you rather be right, or happy?" by:
- sitting on my advice and help more often than offering it (where 'help' is telling him how to do it or doing it the 'right' way)
- asking a simple question BEFORE I offer any help or advice: "I have some thoughts on that, would you like to hear them?" or "would you like advice?" or "would you like help?" and listening to the answer ---very important
- give him the respect of making his own decisions and mistakes
- never or very rarely saying I told you so
- keeping to really serious health/safety/mind-blowingly large amounts of money issues where I "have" to intervene
Why is this? Because my partner is my partner and an autonomous adult. If I thought his way of doing things overall was terrible, we wouldn't be partners. If he were telling me I was doing things incorrectly all the time, we wouldn't be partners. Part of living and growing together is supporting each other in making mistakes too.
Now...over time, he has learned my gut check (for example) is good, so he asks me. I have learned he really knows a lot about how to treat technology to get it to last, so I ask him. I ask him about cooking; he asks me about where the best price is on shoes.
But the emphasis is on asking.
If your fiance really never ever ever wants to hear from you, that's an issue. But in this case, your partner handled your advice really well. He said he could handle it. He brought his phone. He lost it. Next time he'll get a waterproof case for it and tie it to the boat, or whatever. Or ask you your opinion and listen. But nothing in what you've said is a red flag to me.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:10 PM on June 15, 2020 [77 favorites]