Loud neighbors in the time of Covid-19.
May 4, 2020 11:50 AM Subscribe
Two of our neighbors have always been loud talkers. It was no big deal in the Before Times, but now that we are all home all the time, it is becoming more problematic. I wonder if there is any way to ask for a bit more quiet while still being respectful of the fact that they, too, are going through a stressful pandemic.
I describe the situation below, but my questions, basically, are these: Is it reasonable to politely ask my neighbors to reduce their volume when speaking for long periods of time outside of our house? I would not ask them to stop congregating, only to speak at a lower volume when they do so. Perhaps I could ask them just to be quieter on very important days? If this is reasonable, do you have a script I can use?
Husband and I live in a townhouse which is adjoined by two others. Each of these townhouses contains a family of three, including: (1) One normal volume adult, (2) One extremely loud adult, and (3) One normal volume small child.
When we are inside our home, the normal volume adults and kids are basically inaudible. The loud talkers can be heard clearly when they are outside (even 50+ ft away) or inside and near their front/back doors. This is only true of these two people, I rarely overhear anyone else in the neighborhood to this extent. Our windows and doors are tightly closed in these situations. Their talking is hugely disruptive during my workday - music doesn't block it out completely, I have a lot of video calls, and over-ear headphones give me migraines. On top of that, my husband and I each have an important exam later this month.
In the past, this wasn't a problem. We would occasionally hear the loud talkers, but they were usually moving around so it would only be for a minute or two near their doors or on their way home from a walk. No big deal, just a part of city life.
Now, however, they have taken to congregating for long periods of time just outside of our houses. Sometimes they are playing with the kids in our shared driveway, but again the kid noises are basically inaudible - I wouldn't mind hearing kids laughing/crying/playing, but this is the sound of adults essentially yelling for no reason. Other times, they will sit on our shared stoop while their friends sit in chairs 6ft away, and talk at full volume for hours.
I fear that anything I say to them will be labeled tone-deaf, as Husband and I are childless. But I stress that the kids are not the problem at all, and I would be totally understanding of kid noise outside the house. It's the excessive adult noise that is problematic.
I describe the situation below, but my questions, basically, are these: Is it reasonable to politely ask my neighbors to reduce their volume when speaking for long periods of time outside of our house? I would not ask them to stop congregating, only to speak at a lower volume when they do so. Perhaps I could ask them just to be quieter on very important days? If this is reasonable, do you have a script I can use?
Husband and I live in a townhouse which is adjoined by two others. Each of these townhouses contains a family of three, including: (1) One normal volume adult, (2) One extremely loud adult, and (3) One normal volume small child.
When we are inside our home, the normal volume adults and kids are basically inaudible. The loud talkers can be heard clearly when they are outside (even 50+ ft away) or inside and near their front/back doors. This is only true of these two people, I rarely overhear anyone else in the neighborhood to this extent. Our windows and doors are tightly closed in these situations. Their talking is hugely disruptive during my workday - music doesn't block it out completely, I have a lot of video calls, and over-ear headphones give me migraines. On top of that, my husband and I each have an important exam later this month.
In the past, this wasn't a problem. We would occasionally hear the loud talkers, but they were usually moving around so it would only be for a minute or two near their doors or on their way home from a walk. No big deal, just a part of city life.
Now, however, they have taken to congregating for long periods of time just outside of our houses. Sometimes they are playing with the kids in our shared driveway, but again the kid noises are basically inaudible - I wouldn't mind hearing kids laughing/crying/playing, but this is the sound of adults essentially yelling for no reason. Other times, they will sit on our shared stoop while their friends sit in chairs 6ft away, and talk at full volume for hours.
I fear that anything I say to them will be labeled tone-deaf, as Husband and I are childless. But I stress that the kids are not the problem at all, and I would be totally understanding of kid noise outside the house. It's the excessive adult noise that is problematic.
In my experience, the only way for a noise complaint to be received well by your neighbours is if you've already established a friendly relationship with them and they see you as a real person.
What's your existing relationship with these neighbours? Are you friendly, do you know their names, do you ever talk? If not, it might be wise for your long-term sanity to start establishing a rapport with them, and only after a few weeks to reach out about the talking volume. Otherwise you run the risk of being seen as "that couple next door who gets annoyed by TALKING."
posted by mekily at 12:55 PM on May 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
What's your existing relationship with these neighbours? Are you friendly, do you know their names, do you ever talk? If not, it might be wise for your long-term sanity to start establishing a rapport with them, and only after a few weeks to reach out about the talking volume. Otherwise you run the risk of being seen as "that couple next door who gets annoyed by TALKING."
posted by mekily at 12:55 PM on May 4, 2020 [6 favorites]
This is probably going to be hard because, from the neighbor's perspective, what they are doing is perfectly normal and appropriate - taking in their normal volume, on their own property. So, you are really asking for a favor here and even if they are open to being considerate, it will probably be hard for them to remember. I think I would focus my request on the most critical times which would also allow you to provide little thank-you/reminders as times go on and you get nearer to your exam date.
I would do this in person (face to face at a distance) if you can so you can adjust your tone based on their response. In any case, make it a dialog not dumping the complete message at once via a note or email. I know when my husband tells me my voice is too loud my first response is very defensive (and I love him!) so it will help to ease into it and give him a chance to response. Getting to know them better first as mekily suggests is even better.
posted by metahawk at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
I would do this in person (face to face at a distance) if you can so you can adjust your tone based on their response. In any case, make it a dialog not dumping the complete message at once via a note or email. I know when my husband tells me my voice is too loud my first response is very defensive (and I love him!) so it will help to ease into it and give him a chance to response. Getting to know them better first as mekily suggests is even better.
posted by metahawk at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2020 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the answers so far! Some additional context, based on the last two answers:
- We are all part of a homeowners association (our three units, plus a fourth unit). We all know one another's names and say hello, but we aren't close to them. Everyone is polite/friendly to one another, but we don't hang out socially with them. (The two households in question do seem to socialize with one another, though.)
- They aren't doing this on their own property, exactly, and I think this is what I find so grating about it. They are doing this on our communal/HOA property (our shared stoop, our shared driveway) or public property (the sidewalk).
posted by shb at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
- We are all part of a homeowners association (our three units, plus a fourth unit). We all know one another's names and say hello, but we aren't close to them. Everyone is polite/friendly to one another, but we don't hang out socially with them. (The two households in question do seem to socialize with one another, though.)
- They aren't doing this on their own property, exactly, and I think this is what I find so grating about it. They are doing this on our communal/HOA property (our shared stoop, our shared driveway) or public property (the sidewalk).
posted by shb at 1:23 PM on May 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
My gf is a loud talker. It drives me crazy. She sits out on our deck and I am sure the whole complex hears her. I have tried suggesting she talk softer. I have two theories about loud talkers. One, is that they just cannot help it. Maybe they are hard of hearing. Maybe in the short run they modify their speech levels, but it will slip back. Two, they just don't care. I am not sure there is anything you can do to change it. I do think it is reasonable to ask them to talk as if someone is sleeping or studying or working during certain hours or certain days. I wish my neighbor would say something so that I can use that to try to get my gf to speak softer. I also think two loud talkers talking to each other feeds on each other and it becomes a booming conversation.
posted by AugustWest at 1:47 PM on May 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by AugustWest at 1:47 PM on May 4, 2020 [1 favorite]
I can relate to this. I think the best argument would be to bring up your work and say it's hard to concentrate or hard to make calls. But be very friendly and apologetic about it (if they're on the sidewalk or even your shared stoop, they probably think they're being reasonable). Tell them the sound carries inside in surprising ways. Is there somewhere else you could possibly ask them to stand, or do you just want them to reduce the volume?
posted by pinochiette at 2:23 PM on May 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by pinochiette at 2:23 PM on May 4, 2020 [3 favorites]
I've had conversations with neighbors similar to what you're facing. They went well and probably wouldn't have been possible if we didn't already have some level of mutual trust and understanding.
Nobody thinks their own speaking volume is abnormal, so that's a big hurdle to overcome when bringing this issue to your neighbors' attention. And the key thing to keep in mind is it's your issue, not theirs. From your description it sounds like the neighbors are simply hanging out in public (or shared) areas during daylight hours doing what people everywhere in the world have been doing since forever - sitting on the stoop and being social.
So when you talk to them it's important to acknowledge that you're placing a burden on them. You're asking them to alter their perfectly normal behavior to suit you, and it's an especially big ask these days when we have limited options to be social. Be clear that you're not asking them to stop doing what they're doing, you're just asking them to be mindful of the thin walls. Be prepared for questions about why you can't just work in a different part of your house if exterior sounds are bothering you. Be specific and focused on what the problem is -- I wouldn't mention the kids at all, because even if it's merely to emphasize that the kids are not the problem it could still plant the idea in the parents' heads that the kids really ARE the problem. All the other things you've written indicate that you've already got a good handle on what to say.
posted by theory at 2:37 PM on May 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
Nobody thinks their own speaking volume is abnormal, so that's a big hurdle to overcome when bringing this issue to your neighbors' attention. And the key thing to keep in mind is it's your issue, not theirs. From your description it sounds like the neighbors are simply hanging out in public (or shared) areas during daylight hours doing what people everywhere in the world have been doing since forever - sitting on the stoop and being social.
So when you talk to them it's important to acknowledge that you're placing a burden on them. You're asking them to alter their perfectly normal behavior to suit you, and it's an especially big ask these days when we have limited options to be social. Be clear that you're not asking them to stop doing what they're doing, you're just asking them to be mindful of the thin walls. Be prepared for questions about why you can't just work in a different part of your house if exterior sounds are bothering you. Be specific and focused on what the problem is -- I wouldn't mention the kids at all, because even if it's merely to emphasize that the kids are not the problem it could still plant the idea in the parents' heads that the kids really ARE the problem. All the other things you've written indicate that you've already got a good handle on what to say.
posted by theory at 2:37 PM on May 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
If I were your loud neighbor, I would for sure wanna know. It would also make me feel good to get a thank-you after a week or so so that I knew I wasn't still accidentally driving you bananas. It seems like your inclinations toward phrasing and general kindness are just real accurate, especially in talking about how just right now, things are extra tricky with tests and whatnot. Them being careful for you in the short term will probably mean being careful for your in the long term.
posted by lauranesson at 2:50 PM on May 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by lauranesson at 2:50 PM on May 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
Hi! I am a Latina living in this kind of community and I am probably your neighbors. I think one thing that’s really important to remember in these situations is that there are different cultural norms around the acceptability of noise, and that people raised in different areas of noise experience it differently. I grew up where the noise of neighbors was common and friendly. I find it strange when people are expectant of outdoor quiet when the houses are twenty to thirty feet apart. “Stoop life” was a part of my community. You talk a lot about “normal” and “extremely loud” but you don’t know where the loud talkers come from or what their cultural background was. It’s entirely possible that no one is in the wrong.
What would work for me is being explicitly told that your boss is an asshole and is being shitty about background noise, because that’s an external person and doesn’t get into moral questions about whose way of living is better.
posted by corb at 3:49 PM on May 4, 2020 [28 favorites]
What would work for me is being explicitly told that your boss is an asshole and is being shitty about background noise, because that’s an external person and doesn’t get into moral questions about whose way of living is better.
posted by corb at 3:49 PM on May 4, 2020 [28 favorites]
+1 to emphasizing your asshole boss and your video calls, but don't expect a lot of improvement.
If it were noise from an artificial source, like recorded music, you could probably ask them to turn it down. That actually worked pretty well for my neighbors above: I suspect he had a woofer on the floor and didn't realize how well the bass traveled.
Something like talking, no way. They'll creep back up to the volume they're used to speaking, especially if they're trying to be heard by friends sitting 6ft away.
To give you an idea how relative conversational volume is, my parents are from a culture whom you would probably consider to speak loudly. When they need to stereotype someone as speaking loudly, they refer to some town down the river where it's common for neighbors to chat from their stoops on opposite banks of the river, over the noise of the water.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 4:54 PM on May 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
If it were noise from an artificial source, like recorded music, you could probably ask them to turn it down. That actually worked pretty well for my neighbors above: I suspect he had a woofer on the floor and didn't realize how well the bass traveled.
Something like talking, no way. They'll creep back up to the volume they're used to speaking, especially if they're trying to be heard by friends sitting 6ft away.
To give you an idea how relative conversational volume is, my parents are from a culture whom you would probably consider to speak loudly. When they need to stereotype someone as speaking loudly, they refer to some town down the river where it's common for neighbors to chat from their stoops on opposite banks of the river, over the noise of the water.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 4:54 PM on May 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think you should consider writing another Ask about inexpensive soundproofing ideas, e.g. How to Soundproof a Wall Cheaply (Sfgate, Dec. 9, 2018), Cheap and easy home theater soundproofing tips (CNET, Feb. 5, 2010) ("[...] also works in reverse: it will block sounds from outside your room."). I was initially going to suggest focusing on the upcoming exams, and maybe sending a nice note asking for quiet on those days, and including a kid-friendly gift certificate for a business that delivers something like pizza or ice cream as a thanks-in-advance. But this issue is more extensive than that, and your solution may be more successful if you start with what you can do to adapt to the situation.
posted by katra at 6:49 PM on May 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by katra at 6:49 PM on May 4, 2020 [2 favorites]
It is SO HARD to moderate your natural conversational volume. I can do it in some environments but not in others and not if I'm having fun (like, the self-conscious and wary part of my brain needs to have the wheel).
Is it possible for you to limit these requests in time (for the next hour I have an exam...), and ideally ask them to move somewhere else instead of speaking quieter? I believe moving instead of shushing is more likely to work, because if you just ask them to speak quieter you're going to be out there every five to ten minutes. But if you ask them to move the chairs to the end of the driveway instead of the stoop that might be possible and more effective.
posted by Lady Li at 12:14 AM on May 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Is it possible for you to limit these requests in time (for the next hour I have an exam...), and ideally ask them to move somewhere else instead of speaking quieter? I believe moving instead of shushing is more likely to work, because if you just ask them to speak quieter you're going to be out there every five to ten minutes. But if you ask them to move the chairs to the end of the driveway instead of the stoop that might be possible and more effective.
posted by Lady Li at 12:14 AM on May 5, 2020 [2 favorites]
Record them, from your workspace. Walk out to them and say that you're on a lot of video conferences, and this is how they sound - from 50 ft away, compared to their kids!
posted by at at 6:43 AM on May 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by at at 6:43 AM on May 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for all these helpful answers, everyone! Given all the different answers I've gotten, I'm still unsure of how to proceed, so will mull it over for a few more days. At times I lean towards saying nothing - these loud conversations are obviously pleasant for them, and I don't want to put a damper on what I assume is a valuable outlet for them in a stressful climate. At other times I feel incredibly frustrated that the only peaceful rooms in my house are the bathrooms (literally every other room has windows overlooking the problem areas).
I particularly appreciated what corb and meaty shoe puppet had to say about cultural contexts and relative speaking volumes. It's a useful reminder that these folks may have grown up in places where this volume was commonplace, and I do want to respect those differences.
I will say that, having grown up in quiet contexts where voices were really only raised if someone was hurt/upset/angry, it is viscerally unnerving for me and my husband to hear yelling or "shout-talking" for long periods of time. Just as we voluntarily modulate many of our behaviors to make city life more harmonious, I think loud talkers should be mindful of the effects their volume may have on their quieter neighbors.
posted by shb at 8:46 AM on May 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
I particularly appreciated what corb and meaty shoe puppet had to say about cultural contexts and relative speaking volumes. It's a useful reminder that these folks may have grown up in places where this volume was commonplace, and I do want to respect those differences.
I will say that, having grown up in quiet contexts where voices were really only raised if someone was hurt/upset/angry, it is viscerally unnerving for me and my husband to hear yelling or "shout-talking" for long periods of time. Just as we voluntarily modulate many of our behaviors to make city life more harmonious, I think loud talkers should be mindful of the effects their volume may have on their quieter neighbors.
posted by shb at 8:46 AM on May 5, 2020 [1 favorite]
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Dear Neighbor,
I know we're all going through a lot right now and doing our best. I hope you're doing well. I think you may not be aware quite how well sound carries in our little complex. I wouldn't mention it, because I know it's just one of the side effects of everyone being at home so much, but I have an important exam coming up and sometimes, the noise coming through the walls can be pretty disruptive. I was wondering if I could ask you to be mindful of the volume of your conversations, especially on the driveway where, for some reason, a loud conversation can make things inside our home like work calls during the day especially tough. Let me know if there's some way we can help with this, and thanks for understanding.
Signed,
You
p.s. Don't worry about the kids. I know they have to make some noise and they haven't bothered me at all.
posted by less of course at 12:34 PM on May 4, 2020 [7 favorites]