Messy but sterile
April 19, 2020 7:18 AM Subscribe
Stores are out of Lysol wipes. To clean the house, I've diluted bottled full strength Lysol into a spray bottle according to package directions. I'd like to just spray that onto a rag and wipe down packages.
However, the Lysol bottle says that on surfaces that come in contact with food you have to follow up the diluted Lysol with a water rinse. In the personal balance of my own Pandemic Stepford activity this extra rinse step makes it all just too much work for putting away two weeks' worth of groceries.
I also have a spray bottle of hydrogen peroxide that I use on sinks etc these days. I could saturate the rag with peroxide instead of Lysol if that seems less toxic.
(AND... there has been zero disinfecting bleach on the shelves here for 2 months. Only the "deodorizing not disinfecting" stuff that looks the same in its iconic blue and white bottle so you buy it thinking it is normal bleach and then ... just put it in your laundry to deodorize.)
So... what should I use to wipe down food packages (including things like plastic boxes of berries, frozen bags of vegetables, creased plastic bags of bread etc)? I don't have enough tupperware or enough extra plastic bags to just recant everything.
However, the Lysol bottle says that on surfaces that come in contact with food you have to follow up the diluted Lysol with a water rinse. In the personal balance of my own Pandemic Stepford activity this extra rinse step makes it all just too much work for putting away two weeks' worth of groceries.
I also have a spray bottle of hydrogen peroxide that I use on sinks etc these days. I could saturate the rag with peroxide instead of Lysol if that seems less toxic.
(AND... there has been zero disinfecting bleach on the shelves here for 2 months. Only the "deodorizing not disinfecting" stuff that looks the same in its iconic blue and white bottle so you buy it thinking it is normal bleach and then ... just put it in your laundry to deodorize.)
So... what should I use to wipe down food packages (including things like plastic boxes of berries, frozen bags of vegetables, creased plastic bags of bread etc)? I don't have enough tupperware or enough extra plastic bags to just recant everything.
Best answer: Soap inactivates the virus. I dilute dish soap in water in a spray bottle (like maybe 2-3ml per 650ml of water), spray a rag with this, then use the wet rag to wipe down packages that come in the door, then I leave them to dry, still slightly soapy, and put them away once they are dry.
Bare produce is rinsed under running water with clean hands and let to dry in the drainer then put away with clean hands.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
Bare produce is rinsed under running water with clean hands and let to dry in the drainer then put away with clean hands.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [6 favorites]
The FDA says there's no need to wipe down food packages. I would be worried about contaminating food with and accidentally ingesting lysol, which would be really bad.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:28 AM on April 19, 2020 [32 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 7:28 AM on April 19, 2020 [32 favorites]
This Guardian article, and particularly the link within, may provide some reassurance. Hang in there!
posted by kate4914 at 7:34 AM on April 19, 2020
posted by kate4914 at 7:34 AM on April 19, 2020
Response by poster: The FDA recommendation always seems ambiguous. The fact that there is no evidence of the virus transmitted via packaging seems to suggest that no one has studied that very much yet. If they are telling you to wipe down the cart and make sure to throw out your paper grocery bags and launder your cloth ones, why wouldn't the food package that came into contact with hands and coughs like the grocery cart and grocery bags also need washing? Then they say Again, there is no evidence of food packaging being associated with the transmission of COVID-19. However, if you wish, you can wipe down product packaging and allow it to air dry, as an extra precaution. --- So my question is, "wipe down" with what?
posted by nantucket at 7:36 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 7:36 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Wipe down with what? Soapy water, if you want to be doing that kind of thing.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:47 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:47 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I rub down items with soapy water in the kitchen sink. Yeah, cardboard gets a little soggy. Non-perishables often just get a few days of time-out in the corner.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:51 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:51 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Time. Use time unless the food needs to be refrigerated. Covid-19 lasts about 3 days on plastic & about 24 hours on cardboard. If spraying the packages down. Remembering too if you are transferring the contents to another container you can simply pour from the bag/box into the container & throw out the container & wash your hands.
If you really want to wipe down the packaging a microfibre cloth damp with soapy water should do the trick as the microfibres pick up the virus & then you soak it in hot soapy water to deactivate the virus on the cloth or wash it in a washing machine. If you want to use the lysol spray you made then do the same thing but with a microfibre cloth you wash after use so if the spray isn't killing the virus you are at least removing it. Check the instructions on the bottle as some mixed disinfectant products start to loose potency once mixed. ie Diluted Bleach should be thrown out after 24 hours.
posted by wwax at 7:52 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
If you really want to wipe down the packaging a microfibre cloth damp with soapy water should do the trick as the microfibres pick up the virus & then you soak it in hot soapy water to deactivate the virus on the cloth or wash it in a washing machine. If you want to use the lysol spray you made then do the same thing but with a microfibre cloth you wash after use so if the spray isn't killing the virus you are at least removing it. Check the instructions on the bottle as some mixed disinfectant products start to loose potency once mixed. ie Diluted Bleach should be thrown out after 24 hours.
posted by wwax at 7:52 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm very vulnerable and worried about things in the freezer and fridge specifically, which seems like it would allow the virus to "live" longer (cold is better than hot for most viruses). My system is a bucket full of soapy water, gloves, cloths, and for some things, new containers. I would triage and figure out what *has* to be repackaged, what *can* be repackaged or just washed with soapy water, and what can sit on a shelf for a few days before consuming or using. Your diet may change a bit as a result of what you can reasonably wash off. Berries I would dump into a glass container, because their clamshell boxes are full of holes and hard to wash (I'm just not eating fresh berries now, honestly). Frozen bags of veggies or fruit can be either repackaged or wiped down with soapy water. Bagged bread can be dumped into a new container or you can wash the bag with soapy water. Jars and cans can be wiped with soapy water and left for a few days before touching. Wash your hands after preparing but before eating food.
I do all my washing all in my foyer, with clean bags on one side to put the clean re-bagged or washed bags into and a shelf where I put reusable containers (mostly bags). I also store jars and cans and stable veggies/fruits like apples and lemons on that shelf for a few days before bringing them in to the kitchen. It is remarkable how much waste food packaging makes.
The fact that there is no evidence of the virus transmitted via packaging seems to suggest that no one has studied that very much yet.
True, and this also gives me pause. In my understanding, illnesses transmitted through foods have a very different transmission pattern, so we can reasonably assume that food itself is not a vector, which is a big comfort to me. We do know that this virus is spread primarily through droplets. Since in many places it is now required to wear a mask in stores, the likelihood of droplets landing on food products is at least some amount lower than it was at the start of this crisis. The likelihood of the virus being on your things after washing them in a reasonable, non-obsessive way is very low; it's even lower over time (dropping to zero at some point, although maybe slower in cold storage, that's not yet known), and the likelihood of you then touching a spot where somehow the virus is hanging out even after you washed it is really tiny. If you wash your hands before you eat and avoid touching your face while preparing food, the risk is vanishingly small. Take care. I know that washing things is a way for me to feel in control of my environment, and I think that is worth the time right now for me. But if you just leave things be for a few days and don't wash them, that is also a fine strategy (especially out of cold storage).
posted by k8lin at 8:38 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
I do all my washing all in my foyer, with clean bags on one side to put the clean re-bagged or washed bags into and a shelf where I put reusable containers (mostly bags). I also store jars and cans and stable veggies/fruits like apples and lemons on that shelf for a few days before bringing them in to the kitchen. It is remarkable how much waste food packaging makes.
The fact that there is no evidence of the virus transmitted via packaging seems to suggest that no one has studied that very much yet.
True, and this also gives me pause. In my understanding, illnesses transmitted through foods have a very different transmission pattern, so we can reasonably assume that food itself is not a vector, which is a big comfort to me. We do know that this virus is spread primarily through droplets. Since in many places it is now required to wear a mask in stores, the likelihood of droplets landing on food products is at least some amount lower than it was at the start of this crisis. The likelihood of the virus being on your things after washing them in a reasonable, non-obsessive way is very low; it's even lower over time (dropping to zero at some point, although maybe slower in cold storage, that's not yet known), and the likelihood of you then touching a spot where somehow the virus is hanging out even after you washed it is really tiny. If you wash your hands before you eat and avoid touching your face while preparing food, the risk is vanishingly small. Take care. I know that washing things is a way for me to feel in control of my environment, and I think that is worth the time right now for me. But if you just leave things be for a few days and don't wash them, that is also a fine strategy (especially out of cold storage).
posted by k8lin at 8:38 AM on April 19, 2020 [2 favorites]
Best answer: In our household, nonperishables are bagged separately from perishables and left to chill out in a sequestered space for a few days before we put it away.
Fresh foods come out of their packaging, get a vigorous soapy rinse, and into our own food storage containers and into the fridge. All the packaging immediately goes out into the trash, we vigorously wash our own hands, then leave the reusable bags outside for a couple days to chill out. If you can't do that as you noted in your post, id probably just give a soapy rinse to all the food packaging. The counters get washed with hot soapy water and we're done. We also realize this is a huge abundance of caution and its already low risk to get the virus in this manner.
Regardless, whenever we're in the kitchen and touching the food packaging (even after our procedure) we're regularly washing our own hands during food prep.
The disinfectant sprays we reserve for things like faucets and door handles and commonly touched areas outside of the kitchen if there's been a lot of in and out movement.
I can't tell if your intention was to spray your food or wipe it down with Lysol but even with a rinse that feels like a precaution being worse than the disease. Lysol wasn't ever meant to be used directly on food packaging - the instructions are more like hey if you've sprayed a countertop with this stuff make sure you give it a final water rinse before you set food onto it.
I think people are panicked by this right now that they've been pushed into thinking that somehow soap is ineffective and they have to go nuke it from orbit disinfectant, which isn't true. Soap and water can be more effective - Lysol wipes fools people into thinking they're disinfecting with a quick wipe, but if you look at the label, you have keep the surface wet with the wipe for 10 minutes for it to have a disinfecting effect on viruses. Almost nobody uses it this way on common household objects, much less their food packaging.
Soap and water. Soap and water. Soap and water.
posted by Karaage at 10:09 AM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Fresh foods come out of their packaging, get a vigorous soapy rinse, and into our own food storage containers and into the fridge. All the packaging immediately goes out into the trash, we vigorously wash our own hands, then leave the reusable bags outside for a couple days to chill out. If you can't do that as you noted in your post, id probably just give a soapy rinse to all the food packaging. The counters get washed with hot soapy water and we're done. We also realize this is a huge abundance of caution and its already low risk to get the virus in this manner.
Regardless, whenever we're in the kitchen and touching the food packaging (even after our procedure) we're regularly washing our own hands during food prep.
The disinfectant sprays we reserve for things like faucets and door handles and commonly touched areas outside of the kitchen if there's been a lot of in and out movement.
I can't tell if your intention was to spray your food or wipe it down with Lysol but even with a rinse that feels like a precaution being worse than the disease. Lysol wasn't ever meant to be used directly on food packaging - the instructions are more like hey if you've sprayed a countertop with this stuff make sure you give it a final water rinse before you set food onto it.
I think people are panicked by this right now that they've been pushed into thinking that somehow soap is ineffective and they have to go nuke it from orbit disinfectant, which isn't true. Soap and water can be more effective - Lysol wipes fools people into thinking they're disinfecting with a quick wipe, but if you look at the label, you have keep the surface wet with the wipe for 10 minutes for it to have a disinfecting effect on viruses. Almost nobody uses it this way on common household objects, much less their food packaging.
Soap and water. Soap and water. Soap and water.
posted by Karaage at 10:09 AM on April 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oh, also note that a lot of bags of frozen vegetables have tiny holes in them--especially the ones that can be steamed in the microwave. But frozen bags, even if they aren't "steamable," also may have slits/holes in them, the origin/purpose of which is unclear. I wouldn't recommend submerging any bags in soapy water for this reason; instead, wipe them off with soapy water on a cloth.
posted by k8lin at 10:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by k8lin at 10:27 AM on April 19, 2020 [3 favorites]
One thing that also occurred to me is that soap and water is effective because the virus has a fat soluble membrane around it to keep intact. Soap fixes this because it pops that membrane and inactivates the virus and also makes the surface slippery so it can't stay stuck any longer. Similar to when you wash an oily pan.
It may be helpful to think about any potential things you bring into the house as getting splattered by grease. (That is, if it was coughed, breathed, or sneezed on by someone who was infected in the past 24 hours since you started handling it). That splatter is the virus particle.
Rinse off the grease with soap and water, because that breaks up grease and lets it detach from the surface. Then rinse off your hands with soap and water before you touch your eyes, nose, mouth with it lest any of those grease particles got onto your hands when you handled it.
posted by Karaage at 10:35 AM on April 19, 2020
It may be helpful to think about any potential things you bring into the house as getting splattered by grease. (That is, if it was coughed, breathed, or sneezed on by someone who was infected in the past 24 hours since you started handling it). That splatter is the virus particle.
Rinse off the grease with soap and water, because that breaks up grease and lets it detach from the surface. Then rinse off your hands with soap and water before you touch your eyes, nose, mouth with it lest any of those grease particles got onto your hands when you handled it.
posted by Karaage at 10:35 AM on April 19, 2020
Are you sure that the Lysol you have is effective against coronavirus? The concentrate doesn't have the "kills coronavirus" symbol on it on the Lysol website (not sure if that's the product you're talking about though). Seconding the soap and water recommendation.
Also the reason the FDA et al say there's no evidence that the virus is transmitted via packaging is that no outbreaks have been traced to packaging, which at this point we would expect to have seen somewhere in the world - e.g. an infected worker must have coughed all over a bunch of packages at some point by now but there has been no corresponding outbreak among people who received packages handled in a specific warehouse or by a specific worker. Meanwhile, all over the world there are clusters of cases that can be traced to in-person interaction at a specific location; there are no identified clusters linked to packaging. That's why there's a lot of confidence that packaging is not a significant source of infection. Obviously like everything we know about COVID this knowledge has its limits.
posted by mskyle at 10:37 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Also the reason the FDA et al say there's no evidence that the virus is transmitted via packaging is that no outbreaks have been traced to packaging, which at this point we would expect to have seen somewhere in the world - e.g. an infected worker must have coughed all over a bunch of packages at some point by now but there has been no corresponding outbreak among people who received packages handled in a specific warehouse or by a specific worker. Meanwhile, all over the world there are clusters of cases that can be traced to in-person interaction at a specific location; there are no identified clusters linked to packaging. That's why there's a lot of confidence that packaging is not a significant source of infection. Obviously like everything we know about COVID this knowledge has its limits.
posted by mskyle at 10:37 AM on April 19, 2020 [4 favorites]
Can you get your hands on some high-proof ethyl (drinking) alcohol? Liquor that is 140 proof is 70% alcohol, which IIRC is around the optimal percentage to kill the virus. Spray or dunk, let sit for a minute, rinse off.
That would be too expensive to use on *all* your packages, but you could use it just for food items in porous packaging where you don't want to get bleach in your food. Then keep using Lysol on stuff you don't put in your mouth.
I don't think wiping down packages is silly. I can't find the article now*, but I recently read about an immunocompromised woman who had been in total physical isolation from the outside world for weeks except for package deliveries. She still caught it, and found out later that one of the people delivering her packages had it too. So the assumption is that she caught it from the delivery person despite no face-to-face contact.
While that's an edge case (and possibly the only one in the world AFAIK), it seems like it's definitely possible (albeit unlikely) to catch it from packaging. So if you're in an at-risk group, I'd keep washing and wiping regardless of what the FDA says about whether that's necessary. Also sanitize everything you handle while you're handling your packages, e.g. doorknob, keys, purse, etc.
*And while I can't remember the source, I can assure you that it was some sort of credible news publication as I always immediately back out of links to the Daily Mail and other garbage sites.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:47 PM on April 21, 2020
That would be too expensive to use on *all* your packages, but you could use it just for food items in porous packaging where you don't want to get bleach in your food. Then keep using Lysol on stuff you don't put in your mouth.
I don't think wiping down packages is silly. I can't find the article now*, but I recently read about an immunocompromised woman who had been in total physical isolation from the outside world for weeks except for package deliveries. She still caught it, and found out later that one of the people delivering her packages had it too. So the assumption is that she caught it from the delivery person despite no face-to-face contact.
While that's an edge case (and possibly the only one in the world AFAIK), it seems like it's definitely possible (albeit unlikely) to catch it from packaging. So if you're in an at-risk group, I'd keep washing and wiping regardless of what the FDA says about whether that's necessary. Also sanitize everything you handle while you're handling your packages, e.g. doorknob, keys, purse, etc.
*And while I can't remember the source, I can assure you that it was some sort of credible news publication as I always immediately back out of links to the Daily Mail and other garbage sites.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:47 PM on April 21, 2020
The case of the woman who thought she caught coronavirus from a package has been updated to suggest that it is more likely they she caught the virus on a trip to the pharmacy link
posted by vegetableagony at 3:47 PM on April 22, 2020
posted by vegetableagony at 3:47 PM on April 22, 2020
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posted by nantucket at 7:19 AM on April 19, 2020