Arguments with husband rarely settled. Help me figure out why?
January 9, 2020 6:42 PM   Subscribe

When I bring up an issue with my husband, he'll often react in one of two ways: He'll either say something like 'I'm always the bad guy here anyway' and leave in anger or he'll pick up on something I say during a fight and turn it around to make that the issue of our argument.

I tried looking this up in other questions, but since I don't have the words for it, I didn't know what I was looking for (English isn't my first language). So I'm hoping you can help me put a name on it or point me to articles which deal with this kind of reaction. Or maybe this isn't a big deal and just the way some people fight?

For example, when I told him I wanted him to see if there's anything he could do about his snoring, he got annoyed and said he couldn't do anything right by me anyway. These types of conversations then basically end with him being mad at me and no longer wanting to speak.

The other thing he often does is, if we fight, he'll pick up on something I say in the heat of the moment, that has nothing to do with the reason for our fight. It's usually something that he has every right to bring up and for which I then apologize, but then we're no longer discussing the matter at hand. And all other attempts of getting the discussion back on track just seem to make things worse.

What is this and how can I react to it?
posted by TMBelair to Human Relations (22 answers total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
Sounds like magnification, a kind of cognitive distortion. You share one concern, and he makes it into something much bigger.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:51 PM on January 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


How to deal with it? Couples therapy and individual therapy would be great. You need to be able to raise issues in a co structure way; he needs to be able to hear them. He’s not being reasonable if you have described this accurately.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:53 PM on January 9, 2020 [5 favorites]


Best answer: This seems like he's gotten skilled at changing the subject whenever you have an argument. It's a great diversionary tactic if you're not skilled at getting the argument back on track.

I've had to deal with this in the past. It takes some emotional fortitude because if you get angry or upset, now THAT'S the topic of the conversation, and you're further afield from what you originally wanted to discuss. It's tough, but if you just insist on keeping on topic it can be helpful.

If he brings up another thing: "I would be happy to talk with you about that later, but first I'd like to talk to you about [the thing you brought up initially]."

If he says "I'm always the bad guy": If he walks away I would let him, but maybe you can make that the focus of the next conversation. If he pulls this move, you can say "There, you're doing it again," proving your very point. And if he doesn't walk away, just say "I'm not saying you're good or bad or anything! I'm talking about [this particular subject], can we stay focused on it?"
posted by miltthetank at 6:53 PM on January 9, 2020 [7 favorites]


I would call what he’s doing “deflecting”—trying to avoid responding to your concern by changing the topic.
posted by sallybrown at 6:54 PM on January 9, 2020 [21 favorites]


Crazymaking? Usually part of a verbal/emotional abuse package. Nothing ever gets resolved. They cannot stand to be criticized. If they did end up doing something wrong it was probably someone else's fault anyway. That's my experience with that behavior. I ended up constantly doubting myself. It was terrible.
posted by mokeydraws at 7:01 PM on January 9, 2020 [9 favorites]


Best answer: I'd call that guilt tripping. He's making you feel guilty for calling out an issue. It's not a healthy communication tactic but it is unfortunately common.
posted by capricorn at 7:16 PM on January 9, 2020 [5 favorites]


Phrases to Google might be: He blames you for everything. It's never his fault / always someone else's fault. I would link to articles, but the advice seems to vary so widely that you may want to sift through it yourself to see if anything sounds helpful.
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 7:34 PM on January 9, 2020


Nthing changing the subject for the second one, but also pay close attention to the fact that YOU apologize for something that had nothing to do with the topic at hand, and that he actually never addresses your concerns.

As said above, this can fall under the umbrella of verbal abuse, which can often be very insidious. No matter what you call it, what he’s doing in both cases is making clear your concerns and your feelings do not matter. But his matter very much, so much in fact he’s going to quash yours any way he can.

If you walk away from every argument or fight and feel confused or crazy or realize you’re apologizing for something that had nothing to do with the topic at hand, that’s a very unhealthy dynamic. It’s not just how “some people fight.” I’d get a neutral party to help you sort through this.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 7:53 PM on January 9, 2020 [6 favorites]


Best answer: I agree with the first poster that mentions your husband having a cognitive distortion. It could be a combination of several types. The one that jumps out at me is "black and white thinking." You mention something you want to discuss and then he decides that you think he's no good. If he could be made aware that he is doing this (and he is in the mindset to work on it), conversations might go differently.

I also think Non Violent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg is a great resource for figuring out how to make someone feel heard and move the conflict in a constructive direction.
posted by pdxhiker at 7:59 PM on January 9, 2020 [2 favorites]


Personification or black and white thinking. Really a lot of the cognitive distortions all come out at once in these sorts of situations.

This isn't a healthy relationship if that's how things go. Am reading the book this article from today is based on and I have a feeling you'll see some interesting stuff in here. https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/01/negativity-can-ruin-relationships/604597/

Oh, how do you react to it? I personally don't engage with people who claim nothing is ever their fault, blame other people for everything and are generally unpleasant in that way. Changing them is about as effective as pushing a horse lying in mud up Mt Everest. A person who won't even accept their own emotions or actions doesn't live in a rational space so there is no talking to them, and my only effort is to make sure they're not capable of hurting me. Really.

It's like.... my deal breaker in all communication. It's incredibly obvious if the person is that way though and most people are just being a bit stubborn.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:05 PM on January 9, 2020 [4 favorites]


What is this

I call this pattern many things, including but not limited to: a complete fucking pain in the arse, emotional fragility, deflecting, ducking of emotional labour, disrespect for his partner, complete failure to pull up his big boy pants.

and how can I react to it?

I recommend not reacting to it. I recommend having a good hard think about whether or not the package deal this man represents is worth your time and effort to persist with.

If he is, I recommend experimenting with the form of words you generally use when you're raising issues of concern. Understand that you're dealing with somebody who has a hair trigger for feeling personally insulted, and that effectively communicating your concerns in ways that make it past his personal affront filter and actually land where they need to is going to involve quite outrageous amounts of work and emotional self-control on your own part. The upside is that practising that kind of emotional self-control in a deliberate and focused fashion will pay you personal dividends.

Seconding non violent communication as a toolset well worth becoming familiar with.
posted by flabdablet at 8:08 PM on January 9, 2020 [17 favorites]


Here on this website I learned about DARVO - an acronym for deny, attack, reverse victim and offender. The terms seems to be used mostly in connection to sexual crimes, but the strategy is no doubt used in other dysfunctional scenarios (for example, my father is an olympic-level DARVO user).

Personally, I think the DARVO strategy is not always nefarious and abuse-related (though I do believe the risk of abuse from people for whom it is the go-to or only strategy is fairly high).

FWIW I think it frequently comes from growing up in a dysfunctional environment, at least in the sense that perceived personal failings are penalized in one way or the other (even, perversely, via excessive praise). In my experience, sometimes people with such a past can over-identify criticism (for example, unless you are, in fact, highly critical on a regular basis, I don't see why the snoring conversation would be aggravating unless it is taken as a personal criticism) AND react really badly to it.

WRT to what you can do about it - I'm not sure if this is even good advice, but if your husband is usually reasonable, you could try talking to him at a neutral time & asking him how he would like you to address issues. When you have something to discuss that he might find unpleasant, hurtful, critical, something that makes him feel vulnerable - how can you bring it up so that it is not potentially triggering?

If his notion is that you should never bring up issues, then you might have bigger problems. Is couples counseling available where you are? Would he be willing to go?

BTW, the other topic that comes up in connection to DARVO is narcissism.
posted by doggod at 8:08 PM on January 9, 2020 [13 favorites]


Yeah, I guess this is one of the extremely easy signposts for at least behavioral if not diagnosable narcissism. I can't express how little I expect any happy outcome to come from trying to engage if someone really won't ever good faith accept what you say. That's a better way of putting it.

Not to get political, but you can find an omnipresent example of DARVO in basically 99% of American political news stories for the past 4 years...
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:16 PM on January 9, 2020 [2 favorites]


Another useful tool is the Two Weeks Until It Was Always His Idea rule. Raise a concern, let him have his little tantrum about it, then leave it sit for a full two weeks before even trying to do anything further about it. Then present him with the low- but not zero-effort next step he needs to take toward resolving it.

For example, raise the snoring; let him have his little fragility drama; wait two weeks. Then inform him of the time and place he needs to be for the sleep study you've booked for him, that you expect him to go, and that you will not be discussing it any further.
posted by flabdablet at 8:23 PM on January 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


If I had a do-over in my life, I'd go for one-on-one counselling, so I could freely discuss the issues to someone outside the dynamic and get an idea of what appropriate responses should be like. If your partner feels threatened (or hurt) and makes it difficult for you to get help, please leave.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:27 PM on January 9, 2020 [1 favorite]


Best answer: 'I'm always the bad guy here anyway'
he couldn't do anything right by me anyway
What is this and how can I react to it?


this is showboating, passive-aggressive dramatics, and a martyr complex. among other things. If you are having these arguments in English, the traditional answer is "Get down off the cross, we need the wood." You may not want to respond in such a manner if being laughed at makes him explode. but this is very silly behavior and only parents of thirteen-year-olds can be expected to tolerate it for long.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:43 PM on January 9, 2020 [12 favorites]


Response by poster: Thank you for all your responses. They've helped me put into words what I've been experiencing and feeling. I've found myself crying while reading some, because I didn't realize this has been weighing on me so much. I have a lot to think about. Thanks.
posted by TMBelair at 10:57 PM on January 9, 2020 [5 favorites]


What you're describing fits with what The Gottman Institute calls defensiveness and stonewalling. These are two of the "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" -- aka, problematic ways of responding to conflict that are associated with failed relationships.

Here's a nice overview of them. If this seems useful, then good news! There's a lot of great stuff from the Gottmans that may be helpful.
posted by meese at 5:57 AM on January 10, 2020 [9 favorites]


One important thing I have discussed with my partner is not turning one issue into a discussion/issue about something else, to hear the person that is raising an issue out without saying something to the effect of "well, you do this too" or "you do this other thing." If the other issue is important to them, it is up to them to raise this at a separate time as something they want addressed rather than using it as a defense/deflection strategy.

When I have had a partner in the past that engaged in this behavior, I found that he was not interested in addressing the problematic behavior or in creating a better relationship. He would argue for instance that I was too sensitive, immediately invalidating any issue I raised.

If your husband is not interested in addressing these issues and the status quo is problematic (it is), then you have an intractable situation and outside help might be the only possible solution. Would your husband be open to this? Able to discuss this in a level headed manner without taking personal offense? Would he care enough about the relationship to go and see a therapist?

Wishing you the best.
posted by mossy_george at 8:43 AM on January 10, 2020 [4 favorites]


OP, I enthusiastically encourage you to set up an appointment with a marriage counselor/couple's therapist, if your husband is willing to go. It is so much easier to talk about sensitive things with a neutral third-party facilitator there. A good couple's therapist will help slow things down, give you each space to say what you need to say, help make sure you are each understanding the other, make sure that you can capture new threads/tangents and come back to them without losing the original topic, etc.

It is important that you both feel comfortable with the person you choose.

Your husband clearly has some pain of his own (feeling like he is "always the bad guy") so hopefully together you can work through the ways that you both are not communicating effectively with each other. It's impossible to say from your question what is going on, as we don't know the history and we aren't there to see how you two are interacting. It doesn't matter so much what this is called, the most important thing is that both of you are suffering and that you need to find a new way to talk with one another.
posted by amaire at 12:53 PM on January 10, 2020


When he avoids your issue and changes the subject, his subject is called a 'red herring'.
posted by summerstorm at 8:15 PM on January 10, 2020


Several people above mentioned the possibility of emotional abuse, which may come as a shock if it's the first time you're hearing it in relation to your relationship. I think that what differentiates between emotional abuse and sometimes using diversionary tactics is whether the is happening nearly every time you fight or more rarely. However, beware that it's a source of entitlement at the root of these tactics, he is saying with his actions in these arguments that his feelings are more important than your feelings and that he shouldn't have to deal with certain issues that are clearly important to you if he doesn't feel like it.

You might find that this description (from Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft) resonates with what arguing with your husband feels like. If so, then I would call this behavior emotional abuse. If so, you should be very wary of couple's counseling.

"The abuser see an argument as war.
His goal in verbal conflicts is not to negotiate different desires, understand each other's experiences, or think of mutually beneficial solutions.He wants only to win. Winning is measured by who talks the most, who makes the most devastating or 'humorous' insults (none of which is funny to his partner), and who controls the final decision that comes out of the debate.He won't settle for anything other than victory. If he feels he has lost the argument, he may respond by making a tactical retreat and gathering his forces to strike again later."

He also lists common tactics of abusers in arguments, and these are the ones that may apply in your case:
-Sarcasm
-Ridicule
-Distorting what you say
-Not listening, refusing to respond
-Turning your grievances around to use against you
-Changing the subject to his grievances
-Playing the victim
-Walking out

Also, don't underestimate the disadvantage you have arguing in not your native language when it is the native language of your partner, even if it's a language that you speak very fluently.

Best of luck to you, it sounds like a very frustrating situation.
posted by orchidee at 9:10 AM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]


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