Is this feminism or something else ?

December 9, 2019 7:32 PM

My female colleague recently confronted my male colleague to see if he makes more than her and to chastise him for it.

Not that I really need to take a side here, but I'm kind of baffled as to whether this is appropriate or not. I like both these people but I find this crosses the line into disrespectful work behaviour. While I agree that there should be pay equity in the workplace, I find directly confronting a colleague about it ro be crossing some kind of line to the point where it's not really about equity, it's just about an ego battle. This makes me quite uncomfortable because I don't want to appear anti-feminist. However, I just can't see myself trusting the judgment of someone who would do this. I was friends with this person but I'm thinking maybe I should have a strictly professional relationship going forward. Am I overreacting ?

posted by winterportage to Human Relations (35 answers total)

The taboo around talking about pay is constructed, for employers to get out of these conversations. Taking about pay is important. But regarding the secrecy around it, it also conveniently allows (Male generally) coworkers to also not acknowledge pay disparity as well.

So in terms of confronting a particular co worker about it, there's lots of power dynamics that come into play which most likely both of them have little control over. I'm not sure what you mean by chastise to comment.

Honestly I'd chalk this up to just being an awkward thing, and just move on like it never happened if you like them otherwise. Or to advocate for equal pay in your workplace.
posted by AlexiaSky at 7:41 PM on December 9, 2019 [10 favorites]

Withholding salary information only helps employers, and often hurts women, non-white people, and other traditionally exploited groups.

If you are not willing to disclose your salary to your colleagues, you are a participant of systematic exploitation of underprivileged people.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:42 PM on December 9, 2019 [69 favorites]

It is IMO never wrong to ask someone what they make. It’s also IMO fine to demur instead of responding (though reasonable people disagree). If asking colleague is *mad* at her colleague about it, that’s misplaced. Any frustration is rightly directed at management.
posted by supercres at 7:43 PM on December 9, 2019 [48 favorites]

If politely ignoring pay inequities worked, no confrontations would be needed. The problem here is the systematic oppression of women (and others), not whether you feel uncomfortable that somebody actually said something about it. It might be worth sitting and thinking about why you've assigned negative value judgments like "ego battle," and why you're so upset by your colleague's actions that you're considering ending a friendship over it.
posted by wintersweet at 7:45 PM on December 9, 2019 [9 favorites]

On non-preview, my “fine to demur” is totally showing my privilege. I’d append “fine to demur as long as you recognize and mitigate the privilege that shows/reinforces”.
posted by supercres at 7:46 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]

Best answer: For me this crosses the line at "and to chastise him for it". If he's like most people, this male colleague has no idea what his co-worker's exact salary is. When negotiating his salary, was he supposed to inquire what your female colleague was getting paid first? Take this up with your employer, not your co-worker.
posted by spudsilo at 7:53 PM on December 9, 2019 [103 favorites]

My salary is public record, and anyone who works with me can determine it within a few minutes of searching.

And in the private sector, most women I know understand their male coworkers earn more for the same job. Feigning ignorance of pay disparity is a key part of how inequality is upheld, and it is a distinct privilege of those who benefit from class oppression, in my experience.

You can choose to ostracize the unhappy and disruptive lady, or you can consider that she likely has damn good cause for agitating.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:03 PM on December 9, 2019 [32 favorites]

Here is an article I came across today discussing systemic pay inequities (in this case, in Britain). She shouldn’t have “chastised” him- I’d note that the definition of chastise is heavily dependent on the mindset of the chastisee, and that people in positions of privilege are often sensitive to others’ acknowledgement of that privilege- but here’s a paragraph to for you and your male colleague consider:

Currently, the burden of challenging unequal pay falls on those affected, when their confidence has already been dented by discovering that their employer does not value them as highly as their colleagues. They are the ones who have to make themselves unpopular by challenging the system. In the future, though, men could take on some of that burden by revealing their salaries to their co-workers, even if it annoys their bosses. “All you’ve got to do is say: This is what I’m earning,” Smethers said. “Share your pay information with your colleagues. It’s a simple act of solidarity.”

Were I you I would not lose a friend over this.
posted by charmedimsure at 8:04 PM on December 9, 2019 [12 favorites]

Best answer: I agree with spudsilo. It is not the male colleague's fault that he is paid more, if he is. Every employee goes for the best pay he or she can get. If there is an improper disparity (and many disparities are not improper) it is the employer who should answer for it.
posted by megatherium at 8:04 PM on December 9, 2019 [15 favorites]

Response by poster: i totally hear the point about not disclosing salary being a way to "participate in the exploitation of underprivileged people." That being said, maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I still don't want to disclose my salary ( and btw I live alone and am borderline living paycheque to paycheque due to the high cost of living where I am, so I don't really need a lecture about that. You'll be happy to know I make significantly less than both of the people in question.)
The guy never refused to disclose his salary either. I just want to know , for example, if a manager saw this, what would be their action if anything ?
posted by winterportage at 8:08 PM on December 9, 2019 [3 favorites]

I totally agree with spudsilo also Its' NONYA. None of YOUR business.
posted by JayRwv at 8:12 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]

, what would be their action if anything ?
Ideally to grant equal pay for equal work. In practice it’s often to demote or fire or otherwise make life difficult for a woman who is not content with her second-class status and willing to make noise about it. What kind of workplace would you rather support?
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:15 PM on December 9, 2019 [35 favorites]

Large scale salary sharing tends not to go well for those organizing said sharing, despite there being nothing inherently wrong with it. This is one of the ways management fucks workers.
posted by supercres at 8:24 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]

It's not technically feminist to lose the frustration battle and yell at a coworker, but it is plenty feminist to be so fuckin' Tired Of It All and lose your grip for a minute.

Men will be fine even if they get yelled at a bit. If they're not doing everything they can to stop being part of the problem, they are part of the problem and can live with the discomfort for a minute.

A smart manager who saw this would recognize that they better audit their salaries to see if they have a problem. A medium-aware manager will leave it alone and watch for future issues.

Obviously the man in question could complain if he chooses, and his feelings will likely be given priority and she will face retaliation for bringing up something that employers do not want discussed, even if there are worker protections where you are that ostensibly protect workers from that retaliation.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:27 PM on December 9, 2019 [56 favorites]

Why is it more important to you to ostracise someone visibly angry at their disadvantage than those creating disadvantaged circumstances? Maybe the latter is not your male colleague, but is it more important to your personal value system to prop up inequity or push against it?
posted by chiquitita at 8:34 PM on December 9, 2019 [31 favorites]

I'm not sure if you mean to bring this to your manager's attention but I hope you don't.

Depending on what the chastising involved (did she verbally attack him for earning more or was she expressing frustration and got angry when he acted dismissively) I would let this go vs... no, I would still let it go.

People who feel unfairly treated often do not feel safe enough to confront the person in power. Even if that's not cool (and it's not) I still wouldn't make a stink about it - to do it to a woman in this situation would be really ugly.
posted by M. at 8:57 PM on December 9, 2019 [12 favorites]

Judging a woman for daring to show anger/frustration and punishing her by cutting her off is about as anti feminist as it gets. Should she have gotten angry at her colleague? No of course not, all he did was negotiate the best pay he could.

But can you try and imagine for just a second about how it must feel to slog away at your qualifications and then your career, to perform just as well if not better than your male colleague only to find out that no matter how good you are, you’ll never be valued the same.

Wait though, the expectations put on you to perform will be just as high if not higher than his, especially once you have kids. You’ll just never get rewarded for it. Ever.

Now imagine that on top of it all, you’re shunned by another woman that you thought was a friend and sister in arms when you unfortunately couldn’t suck it up endlessly like the good little girl that the corporate world demands that you be. Please...go easy on her.
posted by Jubey at 10:16 PM on December 9, 2019 [32 favorites]

Your culturally conditioned aversion to discussing salary is helping employers keep you underpaid. Good for your coworker, but she should direct her rage at the employer not the male employee.
posted by benzenedream at 10:37 PM on December 9, 2019 [8 favorites]

I feel like a good deal of context is missing here. It is reasonable to be frustrated about not being paid as much as someone equally or less qualified. It's probably not super productive to direct your anger towards that person who is getting paid the amount rather than the person who decided to pay them more than you, but who knows exactly what passed between the two of them. Maybe there was something about the interaction between the two of them that you are unaware of that would have made her take out the anger on him and not management? Eg maybe he was clueless about why it might be perceived as unfair that he was being paid more or insensitive in his response. Or as others have noted, maybe she was angry and having a bad day and took it out on the wrong person. Or maybe none of that is the case and she truly was unreasonably mean or angry towards him but regardless I don't know how useful it is to you for your overall understanding of the world and of this person and of this situation/issue to say you're going to avoid her going forward. Since you're an onlooker in this situation maybe just keep an open mind and be nice to everyone involved (which I hear is a Canadian thing).
posted by knownfossils at 10:43 PM on December 9, 2019 [4 favorites]

I missed your question about whether it would be okay for you to cool your relationship with her for this.
You have no obligation to be anyone's friend but yeah I think freezing her out would contribute a small part to reinforcing the existing power structure. You'd be punishing her for standing up for herself in a wrong way.
posted by M. at 10:45 PM on December 9, 2019 [7 favorites]

Oh gosh, this sounds really inappropriate. I wouldn't be comfortable trusting someone who behaved in the way you describe in the workplace either.

It doesn't make you a bad person to be wary of people when you find their behaviour makes you uncomfortable. Publicly berating a coworker about their pay isn't really an appropriate way to address these issues imo. A random coworker is not anyone's whipping boy to take out frustrations regarding the social issues of the day. Unless there is some missing context like this dude was boasting about his salary and how underqualified he is or something, this person just sounds like a bully.
posted by windykites at 11:40 PM on December 9, 2019 [16 favorites]

It's interesting that you frame this in terms of whether or not to trust her judgment. What about her judgment is off, to you? That she did not take it on herself to negotiate a better salary ("Lean In" style feminism)? That she broke the taboo around salary discussions with colleagues? That she feels angry and betrayed by the myth of pay equity? That she has made you uncomfortable?

Consider whether your comfort, or that of your mutual male colleague, should be privileged over equity.

P.S. Assertiveness in women is often perceived, by both men and women, as confrontation. It's hard for us to know actually what happened without a play-by-play. But language like "chastise" makes the woman come across as shrill and/or scolding, both of which have used to silence women's rage.
posted by basalganglia at 3:20 AM on December 10, 2019 [12 favorites]

Yeah, I mean, I see what you’re favoriting here and I doubt you have any interest in listening, but the fact that you say “chastise” rather than “yell” I suspect means that what she did is perfectly appropriate but you feel uncomfortable because you’ve absorbed taboos about money, such as that it should not be discussed.

One of the ways that women are fighting pay inequality right now is by asking male coworkers to fight for them - to support them getting equal pay. If he said some version of “well I negotiated for this, you could have negotiated too, I don’t see why I should be the one doing something about it” then it’s feminist as fuck for her to call him out and you are, in fact, both anti-feminist and anti-worker for even considering how a manager would feel about it or that you should freeze her out.
posted by corb at 4:38 AM on December 10, 2019 [30 favorites]

Employers have lots of ways of retaliating against people who break these rules. The colleague who got 'chastised' has no control at all over who gets paid what, and presumably can't afford to have an adversarial relationship with his employer any more than anybody else can. Being mad at people who have no real power isn't feminism, and this sounds misdirected and counterproductive to me.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:50 AM on December 10, 2019 [3 favorites]

Asking about the amount of money someone makes should not be a cultural taboo, & having moved to the US is a very US centric thing, probably as I come from a work culture with a strong union presence. Chastise is an unusual choice of words & makes me wonder what she actually said. Was she blaming the person getting paid more, which is not however cool in anyway or was she angry that she was getting paid less under a culture of people not talking about what they are making and mad at him for being hesitant to share the information. A system of silence benefits no one but the people doing the paying.
posted by wwax at 5:15 AM on December 10, 2019

Best answer: Shouting down the male colleague, if that's indeed what happened, is certainly a level of confrontation which doesn't fit with commonly accepted social and corporate norms. Taken in isolation, it's not awesome. If the person in question has a general pattern of doing this, that's a problem above and beyond "is it ok for angry feeeemales to make helpless men uncomfortable." Sure, it was rude and (oh noes) aggressive and ideally she should apologize for the shouting part. But there is a LOT of context to bear in mind before reporting or disciplining this person. Was she literally chastising him for his salary or sort of snapping along the lines of, "look, Bob, I'm kind of getting screwed here and you're not helping"? The two are pretty different.

I'm sorry if my tone seems flip but the framing of this question feels off to me. No, shouting at your coworkers at 10:30 on a Tuesday is not "feminism". Feminism IS deciding you have a right not to put up with mistreatment, and maybe stating that fact even when it makes others uncomfortable; feminism also involves recognizing that a certain measure of anger is a rational response to this mistreatment, and that maybe women don't need to pretend everything is ok all the time; feminism is ALSO examining her reaction and yours critically and wondering whether they might be inflected by millennia of misogyny; feminism is ALSO ALSO respecting everyone here enough to draw a distinction between "action which is unacceptable on an interpersonal level and merits an apology to the yell-ee" and "report my bitch co-worker because Feminism Has Finally Gone Too Far."

If this is a one-time incident, at a bare minimum the manager needs to let this go, and furthermore realize that Female Colleague taking her anger out on the wrong target spared them a conversation they no doubt should and don't want to have about why she's making less money than Male Colleague for the same or more work, which is presumably what started this. If Manager truly feels the shouting needs to be addressed, it needs to be a starting point for that conversation, not the conversation itself.
posted by peakes at 5:20 AM on December 10, 2019 [9 favorites]

I agree that this is crossing a line, and I would hope a manager who happened to see this would tell the woman it is not appropriate to chastise her colleague in the workplace due to her own frustration. I would not report it though.

It is not feminism to assume that any random man has power. And it’s not useful to attack people you need on your side. Anyone who wants to criticize what the OP has chosen for best answers should note that the first of those has way more favorites than any other answer here.
posted by FencingGal at 5:20 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]

To answer your question, yes, I think you are overreacting. The goal of sharing your salaries is to help you and other workers assess whether you’re being paid fairly, to arm yourself with information that can help you negotiate better wages, and to root out gaps by race, gender, or other illegal factors. If there's a significant gap between the salary of a male employee and a female employee and they are performing similar jobs, that's a red flag and it is normal for your female coworker to be upset about that. Yelling is unprofessional, yes, but perhaps it would be worth your time to talk more with your coworker about why exactly she's upset enough to yell.
posted by all about eevee at 5:50 AM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

That being said, maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but I still don't want to disclose my salary

People in the US don't want to either. It's very, very strongly taboo here — considered both rude and embarrassing. People sometimes point out that the taboo only benefits our bosses, but we still feel the taboo very strongly and most of us can't convince ourselves to break it.

There are probably a lot of reasons you're getting the answers you're getting, but "People in the US feel differently about discussing pay" is not one of them.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:32 AM on December 10, 2019 [10 favorites]

Yes, it's okay to ask coworkers about their salary.

No, it is not okay to berate them about their salary. Jesus, he didn't have any more control over or information about his pay than she did. Yell at the manager or not at all.

Yes, unless you were already friends with this person it is definitely a reflection of their judgment. Feel free to call off drinks.
posted by FakeFreyja at 9:19 AM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

I also have some questions about how long they've been working together and what their backstory is - is it just the last straw with this guy?

Since you were previously friends, can you ask her about it? You might also learn something about the underlying office politics.
posted by momus_window at 9:40 AM on December 10, 2019 [1 favorite]

I've been thinking about this question all day. If a friend of mine (male, female, non-binary, other) were yelling and/or snapping at people uncharacteristically,* I'd be inclined to think that something is going wrong in their lives and they are lashing out.

In this case, it sounds like that Thing is pay inequity. Maybe there's other stuff going on too; maybe their mother is dying or maybe their cat just racked up a huge bill at the vet or maybe they have a migraine. Who knows. Point being, the response ought to be kindness, not cold shoulder -- that's regardless of feminism or anti-feminism or structural inequity or being a manager vs a worker -- that's just being a human in the world who cares about other humans.

* Now, if this person is just a Shouty Person who goes around shouting at people every day or blaming others for things out of their control, fair enough, I wouldn't want to be around that person either. And of course you don't owe anyone your friendship. But the way you describe this person, as someone you liked and considered a friend until you witnessed this moment, makes me think there's something else going on here that either you or we are not being told.
------------------------
Every employee goes for the best pay he or she can get

Demonstrably. Not. True.
(first two links may be paywalled. The last is open, but offers the following as Negotiation Tip #1:
"Be non-threatening. Past advice from experts such as Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg has encouraged women to combine an assertive message with smiles, friendly gestures, and other non-threatening and traditionally feminine behavior.")
posted by basalganglia at 11:45 AM on December 10, 2019 [7 favorites]

I notice several commenters imply the woman coworker was shouting / yelling, there was no mention of yelling in the question.
posted by M. at 9:51 PM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

I notice several commenters imply the woman coworker was shouting / yelling, there was no mention of yelling in the question.

There was also none in the followups from the OP. I’m not sure where people are getting berate from, either. “Chastise” and “confront” are doing a lot of work in people’s heads here and some specificity about what, exactly, the content of that was and what it looked and sounded like would go a long way in helping the OP understand the situation.

I can absolutely see a version in which “confront” is “directly asked without feminizing the request” and “chastise” is “directly, without raising her voice, expressed her frustration with the employer’s pay inequity” or “calmly indicated that the askee’s reluctance to help the asker address a pay inequity with her employer was contributing to the employer’s ongoing ability to discriminate based gender” because of the cultural taboos around the subject.

That’s very different from a possible and, in my opinion far less likely version in which “confront” is “got in this dude’s face and yelled a question” and “chastise“ is “shouted at this this guy he was a bad person because he is paid more” which is what some people seem to be taking from it.
posted by charmedimsure at 10:24 PM on December 10, 2019 [6 favorites]

I think people are assuming that words like chastise and confront mean that there was some level of aggression involved, and are responding from the perspective that aggression in inappropriate in the workplace (therefore the OP should break ties with this individual).

The problem is that when women "directly ask without feminizing the request," they are often perceived as being aggressive (see links above), even if they speak calmly and without raising their voice, even if the exact same phrase from a man would be perceived as praiseworthy. And so women get slammed with anti-feminist rhetoric like "chastise" and "confront" and "shrill" and "scold" and "she should really smile more."

So yeah, the vocab is doing a lot of heavy lifting in people's minds. If the OP is truly worried about appearing anti-feminist, they should take a look at why they used the words they did.
posted by basalganglia at 4:37 AM on December 11, 2019 [8 favorites]