Am I in (yet another) toxic job? Fitting in, male-dominated environment
December 5, 2019 8:22 PM Subscribe
I've been in my job for a few months now, but am wondering if it's a toxic workplace or if it's just me... Snowflakes inside!
My workplace is a male dominated one. Sometimes it feels more like a frat house than an actual workplace.
In general, there have been many times where I feel like my coworkers dislike me and don't respect me, and I'm so baffled and confused and hurt as to why. I try really hard to be kind, to go out of my way to help them out with whatever they need, and also to be a good listener. I have caught them making fun of other people in the company on different teams that have similar personalities as me. (ie: Quiet, introverted, etc.) They all acted like it was in good fun and that they were just joking, but it's very likely that they think the same of me.
I also feel like they have little respect for me or what I do, even though my entire job consists of working with them and helping them out.There are a handful of people that, when they talk to me, make no eye contact with me whatsoever. These are the same people that will sometimes ask me a question, and then interrupt me or not even hear my response. They also sometimes act like they don't hear me whenever I speak to them (most of the time I am just talking to them to ask them something work related. I get sometimes people are busy or wrapped up in their email but it's happened a lot recently).
If I say something, they ignore me. I catch them smirking at one another as they continue to talk to each other. I do try and make small talk with them or ask about their families, but they just give a short answer and change the topic or go talk to someone else.
My assistant supervisor, "Tom", is difficult to work with. He wasn't in the interview, but at first he avoided me and seemed hesitant to talk to me. (He would stop talking and look at me when I passed by his desk.) He's a different race than me, which I don't mind, but he might? When he talks to me, he'll say things like, "It's all Kobi's fault." or tells people that he likes to blame me for things. At first I thought he was kidding and laughed, but it seems hostile now. He'll also stare at me intensely which makes me uncomfortable. A coworker once asked what he was looking at and to stop harassing me, but he still continues to do it.
We don't have to be friends, but it's awkward when they talk to everyone else around me except me. I've sort of accepted this and do my own thing- I go out for lunch and keep to myself. This makes them feel bad for me because I've noticed that some of them now talk to me, but I don't want their pity. I don't want them feeling bad for me.
I've worked in a male-dominated environment before and it didn't end well. (I ended up leaving without a job.) I have bills to pay and need insurance, so I can't do that.
I find all of this very frustrating, confusing, and very hard to deal with. Am I in a toxic culture? Is there something I can do to better my situation/relationship with others? Is there something I should be doing that I'm not? I wish I could talk to my boss about it, but he does some of the stuff listed above too (ie: ignores me and does not make direct eye contact or makes fun of other people on different teams...) so I don't feel like I can 100% trust him.
Am I over analyzing this and worrying too much? No one else seems to have a problem with this weird culture. I feel like a crazy person. My job is emotionally exhausting, and a lot of the time I come home emotionally exhausted and sometimes upset. I look forward to Fridays and dread Mondays.
My workplace is a male dominated one. Sometimes it feels more like a frat house than an actual workplace.
In general, there have been many times where I feel like my coworkers dislike me and don't respect me, and I'm so baffled and confused and hurt as to why. I try really hard to be kind, to go out of my way to help them out with whatever they need, and also to be a good listener. I have caught them making fun of other people in the company on different teams that have similar personalities as me. (ie: Quiet, introverted, etc.) They all acted like it was in good fun and that they were just joking, but it's very likely that they think the same of me.
I also feel like they have little respect for me or what I do, even though my entire job consists of working with them and helping them out.There are a handful of people that, when they talk to me, make no eye contact with me whatsoever. These are the same people that will sometimes ask me a question, and then interrupt me or not even hear my response. They also sometimes act like they don't hear me whenever I speak to them (most of the time I am just talking to them to ask them something work related. I get sometimes people are busy or wrapped up in their email but it's happened a lot recently).
If I say something, they ignore me. I catch them smirking at one another as they continue to talk to each other. I do try and make small talk with them or ask about their families, but they just give a short answer and change the topic or go talk to someone else.
My assistant supervisor, "Tom", is difficult to work with. He wasn't in the interview, but at first he avoided me and seemed hesitant to talk to me. (He would stop talking and look at me when I passed by his desk.) He's a different race than me, which I don't mind, but he might? When he talks to me, he'll say things like, "It's all Kobi's fault." or tells people that he likes to blame me for things. At first I thought he was kidding and laughed, but it seems hostile now. He'll also stare at me intensely which makes me uncomfortable. A coworker once asked what he was looking at and to stop harassing me, but he still continues to do it.
We don't have to be friends, but it's awkward when they talk to everyone else around me except me. I've sort of accepted this and do my own thing- I go out for lunch and keep to myself. This makes them feel bad for me because I've noticed that some of them now talk to me, but I don't want their pity. I don't want them feeling bad for me.
I've worked in a male-dominated environment before and it didn't end well. (I ended up leaving without a job.) I have bills to pay and need insurance, so I can't do that.
I find all of this very frustrating, confusing, and very hard to deal with. Am I in a toxic culture? Is there something I can do to better my situation/relationship with others? Is there something I should be doing that I'm not? I wish I could talk to my boss about it, but he does some of the stuff listed above too (ie: ignores me and does not make direct eye contact or makes fun of other people on different teams...) so I don't feel like I can 100% trust him.
Am I over analyzing this and worrying too much? No one else seems to have a problem with this weird culture. I feel like a crazy person. My job is emotionally exhausting, and a lot of the time I come home emotionally exhausted and sometimes upset. I look forward to Fridays and dread Mondays.
This sounds a lot like places I've worked. Whether or not anyone else working there was happy, it was certainly toxic to me, and that's what matters. We're social animals and it's really hard to function without being accepted socially.
The one time I had kind of a good outcome at a place like this was when I found out after I put in my notice that everyone above my supervisor liked me a lot, and they had no idea the extent that my supervisor was making me miserable. If you think you have anyone higher up who has been nice to you, maybe talking to them would help, but I'm not even sure what I would say.
What I do know is that if your job is like mine where getting your next job is contingent on what you accomplish here (like you need to show some projects that you ushered from design to going live), they're not going to let you do anything like that and getting your next job will be really hard if you stay here too long.
If it's not that kind of job I still think you should work on getting out but it's less of an emergency.
posted by bleep at 8:36 PM on December 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
The one time I had kind of a good outcome at a place like this was when I found out after I put in my notice that everyone above my supervisor liked me a lot, and they had no idea the extent that my supervisor was making me miserable. If you think you have anyone higher up who has been nice to you, maybe talking to them would help, but I'm not even sure what I would say.
What I do know is that if your job is like mine where getting your next job is contingent on what you accomplish here (like you need to show some projects that you ushered from design to going live), they're not going to let you do anything like that and getting your next job will be really hard if you stay here too long.
If it's not that kind of job I still think you should work on getting out but it's less of an emergency.
posted by bleep at 8:36 PM on December 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'd look for a new job but in the meantime? Stop trying to make small talk to be nice to these people. It's clearly not valued at that workplace and it makes you feel bad and vulnerable when you offer that and it's rejected. I get along fine with my co-workers, and have become good friends two or three I have things in common with outside work, but 90% of the rest couldn't tell you if I was belong to a human family or hatched from an egg and that's fine too.
And keep in mind it's OK to express negative thoughts and have negative reactions. Both you and others. If people are rude there is no rule they can't be (evidently) and no rule that you have to try to smooth things over. Just move on with your day and save your emotional energy instead of trying to change how the whole office interacts with each other. Tom sounds like a freak but not your freak. Document everything and if he makes you uncomfortable then you can report it up chain but it's not your job to fix his behavior.
posted by fshgrl at 9:33 PM on December 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
And keep in mind it's OK to express negative thoughts and have negative reactions. Both you and others. If people are rude there is no rule they can't be (evidently) and no rule that you have to try to smooth things over. Just move on with your day and save your emotional energy instead of trying to change how the whole office interacts with each other. Tom sounds like a freak but not your freak. Document everything and if he makes you uncomfortable then you can report it up chain but it's not your job to fix his behavior.
posted by fshgrl at 9:33 PM on December 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
It's likely to be a toxic place and they're ostracising you as a way to bond to each other. It absolutely sucks and has a toll. Long-term, look for another job or an internal transfer. Document what you can that's explicit and talk not to HR, unless you have a really good HR department that has a track record of taking workplace harassment seriously, but to a manager who seems like a good ally.
Askamanager is a great website to read for how to talk to bosses about advice. Male-dominated workplaces (and the reverse - anytime there's a big gender bias, especially in a strongly hierarchal or superstar 'fun' type office esp.) tend to pick on people who are in the minority, and you basically cannot win if you are female. You can't win by being traditionally female or non-traditionally, by changing your clothes, behaviour etc. So do what feels true to you, it'll take less toll psychologically.
I read mostly academic stuff, but for pop-culture books, I really liked Lean Out by Dawn Foster as a funny f-you to the usual corporate stuff about surviving harassment at work. I also thought that From Sabotage to Support by Wiggins and Anderson was pretty decent, while a little on the millennial woo side.
Workplace harassment is real and hard as hell. You need allies at work and outside to survive. The only people who can stop it are management and if they're not interested, then you need to change jobs. In the meantime, document if you have a case (depending on your area, age, race, gender - but only if it's worthwhile pursuing) and focus on a new job and being happy outside.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:00 AM on December 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
Askamanager is a great website to read for how to talk to bosses about advice. Male-dominated workplaces (and the reverse - anytime there's a big gender bias, especially in a strongly hierarchal or superstar 'fun' type office esp.) tend to pick on people who are in the minority, and you basically cannot win if you are female. You can't win by being traditionally female or non-traditionally, by changing your clothes, behaviour etc. So do what feels true to you, it'll take less toll psychologically.
I read mostly academic stuff, but for pop-culture books, I really liked Lean Out by Dawn Foster as a funny f-you to the usual corporate stuff about surviving harassment at work. I also thought that From Sabotage to Support by Wiggins and Anderson was pretty decent, while a little on the millennial woo side.
Workplace harassment is real and hard as hell. You need allies at work and outside to survive. The only people who can stop it are management and if they're not interested, then you need to change jobs. In the meantime, document if you have a case (depending on your area, age, race, gender - but only if it's worthwhile pursuing) and focus on a new job and being happy outside.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 12:00 AM on December 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
Something that strikes me about your description: with the exception of Tom's behavior, much of it is about your own feelings about certain situations that could be interpreted in some different ways. For example, "there are a handful of people that, when they talk to me, make no eye contact with me whatsoever;" it's totally possible that this is because they don't respect you. It is also possible that they are shy around some women. It is also possible that they are just not big on eye contact with people they don't know well. It is also possible that they notice Tom staring at you, have seen that you don't like that, and are trying to be helpful by not staring (and going too far in the other direction). So no, it doesn't sound like you're over-analyzing, but it is possible you're coming to the worst conclusion possible too quickly. Suggestion: have you ever done a dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) class? Brief overview here. Ignore the stuff about it being a treatment for a particular disorder; I know a couple people in situations like yours who are mentally quite healthy who have told me they've benefitted from the DBT exercises they did - may be something to look into. Bonus about DBT; the interpersonal effectiveness part of it is about how to affect change in situations just like the one you're currently in in a way that leaves everyone's feelings, including yours, intact.
posted by rjacobs at 8:05 AM on December 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by rjacobs at 8:05 AM on December 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
You've written variations of this type of question about different workplaces since 2016. I don't want this to come across as "you must be the problem then", but these issues clearly have bothered you across time and across different people and spaces. The classic Askme answer is therapy. I think a good therapist could help you figure out if there are common patterns in interactions or behaviors that you could handle differently. Again, I don't mean this to blame you -- more to say that if you work with ten jerks, you still can't control what they do, you can only control what you do. A therapist can help with this.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:09 AM on December 6, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:09 AM on December 6, 2019 [9 favorites]
I belong to an excellent Slack for non-men in tech where we talk about these things all the time, and much more. PM me if you would like an invite.
posted by Sheydem-tants at 11:54 AM on December 6, 2019
posted by Sheydem-tants at 11:54 AM on December 6, 2019
No one else seems to have a problem with this weird culture.
Is anyone else there a woman? There's male-dominated and male-dominated -- if you're the only woman, I would say just get out. If there are a few others, you might be all right.
because I've noticed that some of them now talk to me, but I don't want their pity. I don't want them feeling bad for me.
With respect, you do want their pity. rather, you should want it. for god's sake take their pity! (and do your best to put your belief that it is pity away in a corner of your mind while you're taking it. maybe it is, maybe it isn't. you don't know. whatever else it is, it's an opening.)
Everything else you describe is other people being strange and awful, but this one bit is you. you can control it and you can change it. It does not matter at all why a few people are now being civil to you; it matters that they are. encourage it and respond to it.
(And if they notice what's happening, they should feel bad for you! you're being bullied and ostracized for no apparent reason and it's not acceptable.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:30 PM on December 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Is anyone else there a woman? There's male-dominated and male-dominated -- if you're the only woman, I would say just get out. If there are a few others, you might be all right.
because I've noticed that some of them now talk to me, but I don't want their pity. I don't want them feeling bad for me.
With respect, you do want their pity. rather, you should want it. for god's sake take their pity! (and do your best to put your belief that it is pity away in a corner of your mind while you're taking it. maybe it is, maybe it isn't. you don't know. whatever else it is, it's an opening.)
Everything else you describe is other people being strange and awful, but this one bit is you. you can control it and you can change it. It does not matter at all why a few people are now being civil to you; it matters that they are. encourage it and respond to it.
(And if they notice what's happening, they should feel bad for you! you're being bullied and ostracized for no apparent reason and it's not acceptable.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:30 PM on December 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Reading your description brought back terrible memories of my own experience being bullied by men in the workplace. I'm going to be a doomsayer here and recommend you start working on your escape plan NOW -look for a job, save money, take care of any personal stuff (doctor's appts, Rx, etc.) that would ideally be taken care before a period of unemployment- and hopefully things won't get any worse by the time you're ready to slip out the door. Also don't count on any higher ups and certainly not HR giving a rat's ass - but document anyway. Also, give yourself permission to just bail without anything else lined up if it really gets bad. In the meantime, work on your "I'm not to be fucked with" body language. Look people in the eye, make noise, take up space, etc.
I also agree with the people who say you should try to befriend the coworkers who seem to "feel sorry" for you. I'm guessing they see what's going on and are trying to reach out and show you they're not cool with how you're being treated. It's nothing to do with thinking you're unworthy.
posted by Brain Sturgeon at 5:05 PM on December 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
I also agree with the people who say you should try to befriend the coworkers who seem to "feel sorry" for you. I'm guessing they see what's going on and are trying to reach out and show you they're not cool with how you're being treated. It's nothing to do with thinking you're unworthy.
posted by Brain Sturgeon at 5:05 PM on December 8, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:26 PM on December 5, 2019 [5 favorites]