My five year old's behaviour makes me want to avoid social occasions
November 23, 2019 12:06 AM Subscribe
When we go somewhere like a friend's house, or when friends come to us, my 5yo daughter gets overexcited and misbehaves.
She runs around fast bumping into people and things, she doesn't listen or stop doing things when asked, yells, shoves objects in people's faces, is rough with other kids (pulling them around, uninvited tickling, etc.). Calls people stupid. Sometimes she just outright hits or throws things.
I think her behaviour is in the realm of normal. To me she seems on the more excitable, immature and generally difficult end of the spectrum, but I get that behaviour issues are common, and I realise she's only five.
However. It makes me feel so embarrassed, stressed and upset when she is making people around us uncomfortable. I try various things. I correct her in the moment, e.g. physically moving her away, asking her to apologise. I quietly take her aside and talk to her. I try reasoning, I try pleading... I remind her about talks that we've had beforehand where we've agreed on some ground rules. I remind her about special treats that will get retracted if she can't stick to what we've talked about. I will put her in time out if we're at home. (Please no judgment about time out.)
Nothing works. She simply cannot improve her behaviour in the moment. If anything it probably makes it worse when I try to get her to stop. (But what else can I do?) She has been like this since she was two and at five she has yet to magically turn a corner. It's somewhat less frequent than it used to be - maybe one out of every two occasions. It's not always 100% terrible but it's very much not great...
At home, she ends up in time out, screaming the house down. Or if we're out, I just grit my teeth and try to mostly let it slide and just physically stop her from hurting people as needed. And then leave early if I can.
I am introverted at the best of times and this makes social occasions so much more exhausting. Quite often I pretty much dread them. My friends are good, kind, easygoing people but it's still hard.
My question is, was this you? If so, did it get better? When? Did anything help with the behaviour? And did anything help you get through it? Thank you.
She runs around fast bumping into people and things, she doesn't listen or stop doing things when asked, yells, shoves objects in people's faces, is rough with other kids (pulling them around, uninvited tickling, etc.). Calls people stupid. Sometimes she just outright hits or throws things.
I think her behaviour is in the realm of normal. To me she seems on the more excitable, immature and generally difficult end of the spectrum, but I get that behaviour issues are common, and I realise she's only five.
However. It makes me feel so embarrassed, stressed and upset when she is making people around us uncomfortable. I try various things. I correct her in the moment, e.g. physically moving her away, asking her to apologise. I quietly take her aside and talk to her. I try reasoning, I try pleading... I remind her about talks that we've had beforehand where we've agreed on some ground rules. I remind her about special treats that will get retracted if she can't stick to what we've talked about. I will put her in time out if we're at home. (Please no judgment about time out.)
Nothing works. She simply cannot improve her behaviour in the moment. If anything it probably makes it worse when I try to get her to stop. (But what else can I do?) She has been like this since she was two and at five she has yet to magically turn a corner. It's somewhat less frequent than it used to be - maybe one out of every two occasions. It's not always 100% terrible but it's very much not great...
At home, she ends up in time out, screaming the house down. Or if we're out, I just grit my teeth and try to mostly let it slide and just physically stop her from hurting people as needed. And then leave early if I can.
I am introverted at the best of times and this makes social occasions so much more exhausting. Quite often I pretty much dread them. My friends are good, kind, easygoing people but it's still hard.
My question is, was this you? If so, did it get better? When? Did anything help with the behaviour? And did anything help you get through it? Thank you.
Sometimes natural consequences can be the most effective. If she’s rough or rude with the other kids, they’ll generally avoid playing with her again straight away. You can use that as a teaching moment, and say how would you like it if someone did that to you? If you want to have friends you need to be nice to them or they won’t want to play, even a five year old can get that. Peers can sometimes teach life lessons faster than grown ups can!
posted by Jubey at 12:50 AM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 12:50 AM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Impulsivity and hyperactivity are markers for ADHD, so I feel like it's worth asking about her behaviour in other circumstances, especially when she isn't with you. While we know that ADHD in girls can often present differently than it typically does in boys, plenty of girls share the classic (male) ADHD presentation. It's also possible that your daughter may be presenting one way in school and the other way out of school.
I would talk to her teachers to explore what her behaviour is like in school so you can get an overall picture, and then talk to your ped. There are behavioural interventions and occupational therapies for children with ADHD, not just meds, so getting an assessment can be really beneficial and potentially lead to new tools and coping mechanisms for your daughter.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:09 AM on November 23, 2019 [17 favorites]
I would talk to her teachers to explore what her behaviour is like in school so you can get an overall picture, and then talk to your ped. There are behavioural interventions and occupational therapies for children with ADHD, not just meds, so getting an assessment can be really beneficial and potentially lead to new tools and coping mechanisms for your daughter.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:09 AM on November 23, 2019 [17 favorites]
For going to visit people, can you leave her at home with a babysitter? It sounds like both you and her would be happier that way...
posted by Murderbot at 2:52 AM on November 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Murderbot at 2:52 AM on November 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also: a friend of mine found that their children were much more likely to have screaming meltdowns when their last meal had been carb heavy and protein light.
They found getting eggs/cheese/milk/fish/meat/tofu into their children as much as possible really helped.
posted by Murderbot at 3:13 AM on November 23, 2019 [8 favorites]
They found getting eggs/cheese/milk/fish/meat/tofu into their children as much as possible really helped.
posted by Murderbot at 3:13 AM on November 23, 2019 [8 favorites]
Your child may be feeling overwhelmed in the moment. My son is not autistic, but does have sensory issues and can get overwhelmed. It looks like he is feeling hyper and aggressive, but he's actually in a disregulated state. You can't really talk him into good behavior when he's totally amped up. He needs a lot of chill breaks and calming activities to stay out of that state. Then he just misbehaves like a "normal" five year old. So another thing to consider.
posted by Kalmya at 3:49 AM on November 23, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by Kalmya at 3:49 AM on November 23, 2019 [13 favorites]
What time of day are these visits? How tired is your daughter?
Our 5 year old is still reeling from starting kindergarten in September and fully dropping her nap. By 4 or 5 pm she’s barely holding it together, even on weekends. Prone to flip flop between the frenetic behavior you describe and total meltdown. We try to do our active stuff in the mornings to get her at her best.
posted by Kriesa at 4:19 AM on November 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
Our 5 year old is still reeling from starting kindergarten in September and fully dropping her nap. By 4 or 5 pm she’s barely holding it together, even on weekends. Prone to flip flop between the frenetic behavior you describe and total meltdown. We try to do our active stuff in the mornings to get her at her best.
posted by Kriesa at 4:19 AM on November 23, 2019 [6 favorites]
My son is like this and he has ADHD. The thing that especially makes me think of him is the way you talked about your daughter's literal inability to improve her behavior, no matter what the consequence might be or what you do to intervene. The behaviors improve with medication, because it gives him that split-second of ability to think before he acts, but the medication comes with its own set of issues and concerns.
We got the diagnosis from a neuropsychologist. It was expensive, but worth it. YMMV.
posted by woodvine at 4:43 AM on November 23, 2019
We got the diagnosis from a neuropsychologist. It was expensive, but worth it. YMMV.
posted by woodvine at 4:43 AM on November 23, 2019
Is she the only child in your home? She seems very anxious to grab all of the energy and attention. Maybe she hasnt had much practice in mixed company. She could be a tad overactive if she doesnt get more than time with the parents at home and room full of kids at school. She may need more play time in small social circles or more kids her age at home to balance out the energy she gets having other people around. If shes aggressive maybe cut back on her sugar intake.
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 5:31 AM on November 23, 2019
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 5:31 AM on November 23, 2019
I think her behaviour is in the realm of normal... she is making people around us uncomfortable.
Um... Without meaning to be unkind to you or your daughter, I disagree with your assessment and wonder if the people's reaction is related to their sense that they are being obliged to tolerate behavior that is atypical for a child her age. And every time they see her at that. IMHO, a five-year old should be able to modulate behavior and emotions better than what you describe.
I also think you know this, deep down, because you also wrote that the behavior "makes me feel so embarrassed, stressed and upset." As others above recommended, perhaps it's time to have your daughter evaluated.
posted by carmicha at 7:23 AM on November 23, 2019 [20 favorites]
Um... Without meaning to be unkind to you or your daughter, I disagree with your assessment and wonder if the people's reaction is related to their sense that they are being obliged to tolerate behavior that is atypical for a child her age. And every time they see her at that. IMHO, a five-year old should be able to modulate behavior and emotions better than what you describe.
I also think you know this, deep down, because you also wrote that the behavior "makes me feel so embarrassed, stressed and upset." As others above recommended, perhaps it's time to have your daughter evaluated.
posted by carmicha at 7:23 AM on November 23, 2019 [20 favorites]
I am an elementary teacher who has worked with many, many kids with challenging behavior from ages 3 to 14. I agree with others who have said that this behavior, both at home and away, is beyond the bounds of normal.
Getting your child evaluated is a hard process, and it takes time. But it is loads better to have an understanding of any potential diagnosis now, rather than halfway through elementary school. Waiting til later takes away time that she could be using to build social skills and stress management skills when she is younger and people are still relatively tolerant. Get her evaluated ASAP. There might be sensory processing issues, ADHD, anxiety, or something else underlying these behaviors, and once you know you will be so much more able to address them.
In the mean time, my go to parenting advice blog is Janet Lansbury, link
posted by mai at 7:35 AM on November 23, 2019 [20 favorites]
Getting your child evaluated is a hard process, and it takes time. But it is loads better to have an understanding of any potential diagnosis now, rather than halfway through elementary school. Waiting til later takes away time that she could be using to build social skills and stress management skills when she is younger and people are still relatively tolerant. Get her evaluated ASAP. There might be sensory processing issues, ADHD, anxiety, or something else underlying these behaviors, and once you know you will be so much more able to address them.
In the mean time, my go to parenting advice blog is Janet Lansbury, link
posted by mai at 7:35 AM on November 23, 2019 [20 favorites]
I would definitely check in around possible sensory issues, the go to for parents starting to try to sort that out is the book The Out of Sync Child. It has checklists and descriptions you can use to see if it seems like your kiddo. A lot of kids I see (child therapist) present very similarly to your kiddo when the issue is sensory overwhelm. I would also have her evaluted for possible ADHD, though sometimes that's harder to diagnose at 5 just because the rigors of school haven't really taken off academically yet. Good luck and memail me if you have more questions if you like.
posted by fairlynearlyready at 8:04 AM on November 23, 2019
posted by fairlynearlyready at 8:04 AM on November 23, 2019
By all means get her evaluated as there seem to be professionals in the thread who are advising it. I'm not a professional. But if the evaluation yields nothing helpful, then I will say that this:
Or if we're out, I just grit my teeth and try to mostly let it slide and just physically stop her from hurting people as needed.
is a losing formula. There need to be consequences. How are you doing your timeouts? You're not just sending her to her comfortable room by any chance? And when you're out, look, God knows I understand how incredibly inconvenient the whole thing is, but you can't put her and yourself in a position where you literally can't give consequences. If she's in a place she likes, the consequence needs to be going home, right away. If not, time out in the car (don't reward the tantrum by leaving.)
And as suggested above, the less of the out-of-house situation, the better. All kids do better with routine and familiarity. All people are - to whatever degree - disoriented and tired out by traveling. Leave her at home with a sitter or a family member if you possibly can.
And hugs for you. This is so hard. I'm sorry it's happening and I hope she gets over it one way or another soon.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:56 AM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
Or if we're out, I just grit my teeth and try to mostly let it slide and just physically stop her from hurting people as needed.
is a losing formula. There need to be consequences. How are you doing your timeouts? You're not just sending her to her comfortable room by any chance? And when you're out, look, God knows I understand how incredibly inconvenient the whole thing is, but you can't put her and yourself in a position where you literally can't give consequences. If she's in a place she likes, the consequence needs to be going home, right away. If not, time out in the car (don't reward the tantrum by leaving.)
And as suggested above, the less of the out-of-house situation, the better. All kids do better with routine and familiarity. All people are - to whatever degree - disoriented and tired out by traveling. Leave her at home with a sitter or a family member if you possibly can.
And hugs for you. This is so hard. I'm sorry it's happening and I hope she gets over it one way or another soon.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:56 AM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Hello! Yes, this was me. My boys started showing these behaviors around the same age, about 3, and what you describe sounds sensory (particularly bashing into people stood out to me because it ended up being a proprioception issue) I imagine your daughter isn’t badly behaved but isn’t processing her environment in the way you or the others there are.
I haven’t had my boys officially diagnosed but we started occupational therapy and I no longer take them places that are too stimulating. I keep a pretty strict routine and we spend a lot of time outdoors. I don’t let them do screens and we can’t do places like grocery stores or events in town.
So, there behavior is 1000 times better BUT it was hard work. My oldest is now 4.5 and we’ve been working on this for over a year- I think the improvement really started to show after about 3-4 months.
Feel free to pm me. Honestly I couldn’t go out in public this time last year! Now I can! Yay!
posted by catspajammies at 9:02 AM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
I haven’t had my boys officially diagnosed but we started occupational therapy and I no longer take them places that are too stimulating. I keep a pretty strict routine and we spend a lot of time outdoors. I don’t let them do screens and we can’t do places like grocery stores or events in town.
So, there behavior is 1000 times better BUT it was hard work. My oldest is now 4.5 and we’ve been working on this for over a year- I think the improvement really started to show after about 3-4 months.
Feel free to pm me. Honestly I couldn’t go out in public this time last year! Now I can! Yay!
posted by catspajammies at 9:02 AM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
one more thing upon re-reading. This:
I try various things. I correct her in the moment, e.g. physically moving her away, asking her to apologise. I quietly take her aside and talk to her. I try reasoning, I try pleading... I remind her about talks that we've had beforehand where we've agreed on some ground rules. I remind her about special treats that will get retracted if she can't stick to what we've talked about.
This is no good. I'm reminded of a scenario I saw the other day: I was with a friend and her two kids. One kid, out of nowhere, smacked the other one. My friend stopped her conversation with me, and turned all her attention onto the smacker, with a lengthy lecture about choices or whatever.
You see the problem? The smacker here was rewarded with exactly what he wanted: mom's attention, which had been mine because of the visit - which is why he went to retrieve it in the first place. Is there any wonder that he is going to smack again?
Stop rewarding this behavior with lectures, attention, etc. One curt warning and then straight to time out. And make sure time out is very boring.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:05 AM on November 23, 2019 [11 favorites]
I try various things. I correct her in the moment, e.g. physically moving her away, asking her to apologise. I quietly take her aside and talk to her. I try reasoning, I try pleading... I remind her about talks that we've had beforehand where we've agreed on some ground rules. I remind her about special treats that will get retracted if she can't stick to what we've talked about.
This is no good. I'm reminded of a scenario I saw the other day: I was with a friend and her two kids. One kid, out of nowhere, smacked the other one. My friend stopped her conversation with me, and turned all her attention onto the smacker, with a lengthy lecture about choices or whatever.
You see the problem? The smacker here was rewarded with exactly what he wanted: mom's attention, which had been mine because of the visit - which is why he went to retrieve it in the first place. Is there any wonder that he is going to smack again?
Stop rewarding this behavior with lectures, attention, etc. One curt warning and then straight to time out. And make sure time out is very boring.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:05 AM on November 23, 2019 [11 favorites]
Funny enough- I think I’ve identified why social occasions suck so bad for us... I think my boys don’t like hearing me speak to other people... I notice their behavior will rapidly decline if I try to have much of a chat...or speak much on the phone... I suspect it’s sensory as opposed to attention seeking... my gut feeling is my tone unsettles them, or my anxiety (especially if it’s been a challenging day) comes out and they pick up on it.
posted by catspajammies at 9:07 AM on November 23, 2019
posted by catspajammies at 9:07 AM on November 23, 2019
I would work up to it. Plan a 15 minute outing. Talk a few days ahead of time about expectations: “On Saturday we are going to Alex’ house (Pick a place she has visited before). Remember they have bright lights and lots of people. You will be wearing a dress and shoes and have your hair in braids. Let’s try the whole outfit on today and see if it’s comfortable. When we are at Alex’ house, I would like you to walk slowly, talk in a calm voice, keep your hands at your sides, and say hi to three people. Then we will leave and go to the park.”
Before taking her somewhere make sure she is fed and exercised and physically comfortable (clothing isn’t scratchy, hair isn’t too tight, she doesn’t secretly have to pee but is too shy to ask where the strange washroom is, etc). Make sure she is in a good mood and not too rushed and has had your positive focussed attention so she’s not starved for attention at that moment. She can’t behave if she feels uncomfortable.
On the way there, remind her of the expectations: “Ok what will we see at Alex’ house? How will you walk? How will you talk? Hands will be where? And let’s practice saying “Hi Alex! Hi Dev! Hi Ali!” Great, that’s so polite!”
As you arrive, set a timer and have her press go.
Get in, stay close, keep an eye on her, “hey what kind of voice do we use? Great job. Hey hands stay where? Awesome”.... nip her naughty impulses in the bud, to help her succeed. The goal is perfect behaviour for 15 minutes and then you both leave! Don’t stay too long and risk exceeding her capacity to behave.
When the timer beeps, hustle out of there and head to the park for fun, freedom, silliness, loudness, and lots of praise. Also make sure to proudly talk about how well she did- tell other adults in her earshot.
Do that with outings of 15, 20, 25 minutes... working your way up. Always set her up for success by making sure she’s as physically comfortable as possible.
Parent by suggesting positive behaviours, not negative commands. Gently reminding “Hands at your sides” is calm, loving, easy for her to do, and prevents her damaging items... rather than constantly barraging her with don’ts. saying “don’t touch!” is confrontational, often unpleasant for bystanders to hear, and still leaves her stranded as to what she SHOULD do instead) and keeping an eye on her to catch her impulses when she starts to do what she shouldn’t so you can gently remind her BEFORE she misbehaves.
These outings won’t be fun for you, because your job will be to train her rather than to socialize (make sure your friends understand your goals for these outings). Aim for 3 short focussed outings like this a week (being mindful of days when she’s too tired bc of school or whatever else). If you do this a few times a week for a month, you should be able to bring her anywhere.
The ultimate goal: when she can be a great party guest for a whole hour, she gets a big treat.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:07 AM on November 23, 2019 [10 favorites]
Before taking her somewhere make sure she is fed and exercised and physically comfortable (clothing isn’t scratchy, hair isn’t too tight, she doesn’t secretly have to pee but is too shy to ask where the strange washroom is, etc). Make sure she is in a good mood and not too rushed and has had your positive focussed attention so she’s not starved for attention at that moment. She can’t behave if she feels uncomfortable.
On the way there, remind her of the expectations: “Ok what will we see at Alex’ house? How will you walk? How will you talk? Hands will be where? And let’s practice saying “Hi Alex! Hi Dev! Hi Ali!” Great, that’s so polite!”
As you arrive, set a timer and have her press go.
Get in, stay close, keep an eye on her, “hey what kind of voice do we use? Great job. Hey hands stay where? Awesome”.... nip her naughty impulses in the bud, to help her succeed. The goal is perfect behaviour for 15 minutes and then you both leave! Don’t stay too long and risk exceeding her capacity to behave.
When the timer beeps, hustle out of there and head to the park for fun, freedom, silliness, loudness, and lots of praise. Also make sure to proudly talk about how well she did- tell other adults in her earshot.
Do that with outings of 15, 20, 25 minutes... working your way up. Always set her up for success by making sure she’s as physically comfortable as possible.
Parent by suggesting positive behaviours, not negative commands. Gently reminding “Hands at your sides” is calm, loving, easy for her to do, and prevents her damaging items... rather than constantly barraging her with don’ts. saying “don’t touch!” is confrontational, often unpleasant for bystanders to hear, and still leaves her stranded as to what she SHOULD do instead) and keeping an eye on her to catch her impulses when she starts to do what she shouldn’t so you can gently remind her BEFORE she misbehaves.
These outings won’t be fun for you, because your job will be to train her rather than to socialize (make sure your friends understand your goals for these outings). Aim for 3 short focussed outings like this a week (being mindful of days when she’s too tired bc of school or whatever else). If you do this a few times a week for a month, you should be able to bring her anywhere.
The ultimate goal: when she can be a great party guest for a whole hour, she gets a big treat.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:07 AM on November 23, 2019 [10 favorites]
This sounds exhausting and really overwhelming and stressful for both you and your daughter. As everyone is suggesting, an evaluation is definitely the best move.
In the meantime, if nothing seems to work to try to reason with her in the moment, maybe it would be better to just remove her from the social situation immediately on the occasions she is unable to regulate her behaviour. If she is yelling and hitting and insulting people, that is not ok, and isn't behavior you should just grit your teeth about and let slide. And she will start to learn that there is a consequence to her misbehavior.
Are there social settings where she behaves better than others? At the park or maybe one on one with another kid or with certain family members? If so, increase these social interactions, so you can reinforce to her how well she behaved and how proud you are that she gave auntie a hug/said something nice to grandma, etc.
How does she interact with animals? Any petting zoos nearby? Sometimes rough/assertive kids intrinsically understand to be gentle and kind to animals, and then this can be expanded so she can start to understand that she needs to treat people like that too.
I hope it gets better for you both soon!
posted by fourpotatoes at 9:12 AM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
In the meantime, if nothing seems to work to try to reason with her in the moment, maybe it would be better to just remove her from the social situation immediately on the occasions she is unable to regulate her behaviour. If she is yelling and hitting and insulting people, that is not ok, and isn't behavior you should just grit your teeth about and let slide. And she will start to learn that there is a consequence to her misbehavior.
Are there social settings where she behaves better than others? At the park or maybe one on one with another kid or with certain family members? If so, increase these social interactions, so you can reinforce to her how well she behaved and how proud you are that she gave auntie a hug/said something nice to grandma, etc.
How does she interact with animals? Any petting zoos nearby? Sometimes rough/assertive kids intrinsically understand to be gentle and kind to animals, and then this can be expanded so she can start to understand that she needs to treat people like that too.
I hope it gets better for you both soon!
posted by fourpotatoes at 9:12 AM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I work with kids your daughter’s age in after school programs. I agree that this is bordering on the outside of normal. Ideas above I love to try before you pursue professional help: if it’s not working, leave, especially if she wants to be there. The 15 minute visit + work up to longer periods (at home or a neutral third place as well as at others’ homes) is what I was going to suggest. Most importantly, the “rules” need to be consistent no matter where she is, no matter how tired mum is, etc.
Other questions:
- has she had her sight and hearing checked? My son was super physical in new environments until we learned he had a serious vision issue.
- is she in school yet in your area? If so how’s her behaviour there? If not, this might be an early warning to start getting help for strategies
Hang in there.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:16 AM on November 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Other questions:
- has she had her sight and hearing checked? My son was super physical in new environments until we learned he had a serious vision issue.
- is she in school yet in your area? If so how’s her behaviour there? If not, this might be an early warning to start getting help for strategies
Hang in there.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:16 AM on November 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
You could even practice parties at home. Both of you get dressed up. Put on music, light a candle, cut lunch into finger foods. Talk about expectations.
Let her start the timer, then go outside and knock at your own door, come in take off shoes and coat, “Hi teddy bear! Thank you for inviting us!” walk slowly, hands at sides, eat finger foods from a small plate balanced on knees, wipe daintily with a napkin, look at candle with hands at sides, admire the art with hands at sides.... timer beeps, say “bye teddy bear, thank you for having me!” Shoes on, coat on, leave and go to the park.
You could make it fun and PRACTICE so she knows what things to do. It might seem obvious as an adult what proper party behaviour looks like, but it’s not obvious to a kid!
I honestly think most kids who are being annoying literally just don’t know the proper behaviour they should be doing instead.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:21 AM on November 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Let her start the timer, then go outside and knock at your own door, come in take off shoes and coat, “Hi teddy bear! Thank you for inviting us!” walk slowly, hands at sides, eat finger foods from a small plate balanced on knees, wipe daintily with a napkin, look at candle with hands at sides, admire the art with hands at sides.... timer beeps, say “bye teddy bear, thank you for having me!” Shoes on, coat on, leave and go to the park.
You could make it fun and PRACTICE so she knows what things to do. It might seem obvious as an adult what proper party behaviour looks like, but it’s not obvious to a kid!
I honestly think most kids who are being annoying literally just don’t know the proper behaviour they should be doing instead.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:21 AM on November 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for your thoughtful answers. We've definitely used some of those more instant-consequences strategies, but we're still here. We'll look into getting an evaluation.
posted by reshet at 9:32 AM on November 23, 2019
posted by reshet at 9:32 AM on November 23, 2019
Can I also recommend to you this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Your-Childs- Sensory-Signals/dp/1466263539
It's really great, you can just read through the table of contents (which is a list of behaviors and you can actually scroll through it on the Amazon preview without even buying the book) and see which ones your child is doing. Some stuff you wouldn't even consider sensory, actually IS! For example- stepping on people's feet. Or stepping on shoes. Dumping all the toys out of a box. Leaning on things. Glazed over look. Rough with others and doesn't know when to stop. Overheats easily. Runs a low grade temperature regularly.
There are like, 100 different topics she looks at and tells you what the sense is that the child is working out. It's a great book.
I think a lot of people have sensory issues anyway- I for example, am disgusted by strong fragrances and I hate itchy fabrics... so it doesn't mean your child is outside the bounds of normal... but what you descibed really sounded sensory for me.
I didn't really enjoy the Out of Sync child that much.
posted by catspajammies at 10:19 AM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Your-Childs- Sensory-Signals/dp/1466263539
It's really great, you can just read through the table of contents (which is a list of behaviors and you can actually scroll through it on the Amazon preview without even buying the book) and see which ones your child is doing. Some stuff you wouldn't even consider sensory, actually IS! For example- stepping on people's feet. Or stepping on shoes. Dumping all the toys out of a box. Leaning on things. Glazed over look. Rough with others and doesn't know when to stop. Overheats easily. Runs a low grade temperature regularly.
There are like, 100 different topics she looks at and tells you what the sense is that the child is working out. It's a great book.
I think a lot of people have sensory issues anyway- I for example, am disgusted by strong fragrances and I hate itchy fabrics... so it doesn't mean your child is outside the bounds of normal... but what you descibed really sounded sensory for me.
I didn't really enjoy the Out of Sync child that much.
posted by catspajammies at 10:19 AM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
This is very difficult, and you're doing your best, and then some.
In my experience, difficult kids require more perfect parenting and serious consistency. Before an outing, make sure she has a healthy snack, uses the toilet, and is not sleep-deprived. A walk or visit to the playground beforehand my help - running off energy is a blessing. My son once had a huge public meltdown that was triggered by needing to use the bathroom; he wasn't great at reading his own body signals yet. In general, increase physical activity, it's just a huge help for kids to be active, esp. outdoors.
Rewards work. Practice at the grocery store, playground, wherever. 5 minutes of okay behavior gets a sticker. 5 stickers get a small reward. A 30 minute visit to the playground with no incidents gets a reward. Rewards should be small and not sugar-based*. With my son, matchbox cars were currency, pick something similar.
She is getting a ton of attention for being rowdy. When you go out, if she acts out, deprive her of attention. Grab your coats and bag, take her hand and leave. You weren't able to be calm today, maybe you can do it next time. Give verbal rewards for pleasant time. Reading a book together I like reading with you. At the store You were very polite to the shopkeeper who gave you the apple slices.
Absolutely get her evaluated, but be prepared for frustration. My son's school was unbelievably resistant to meaningful help. Their recommendation was He should try harder. Go to the library, read all the books on parenting challenging kids. Being perfect is impossible, Moms get a ton of shame-n-blame, I am sending you both hugs.
posted by Mom at 10:29 AM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
In my experience, difficult kids require more perfect parenting and serious consistency. Before an outing, make sure she has a healthy snack, uses the toilet, and is not sleep-deprived. A walk or visit to the playground beforehand my help - running off energy is a blessing. My son once had a huge public meltdown that was triggered by needing to use the bathroom; he wasn't great at reading his own body signals yet. In general, increase physical activity, it's just a huge help for kids to be active, esp. outdoors.
Rewards work. Practice at the grocery store, playground, wherever. 5 minutes of okay behavior gets a sticker. 5 stickers get a small reward. A 30 minute visit to the playground with no incidents gets a reward. Rewards should be small and not sugar-based*. With my son, matchbox cars were currency, pick something similar.
She is getting a ton of attention for being rowdy. When you go out, if she acts out, deprive her of attention. Grab your coats and bag, take her hand and leave. You weren't able to be calm today, maybe you can do it next time. Give verbal rewards for pleasant time. Reading a book together I like reading with you. At the store You were very polite to the shopkeeper who gave you the apple slices.
Absolutely get her evaluated, but be prepared for frustration. My son's school was unbelievably resistant to meaningful help. Their recommendation was He should try harder. Go to the library, read all the books on parenting challenging kids. Being perfect is impossible, Moms get a ton of shame-n-blame, I am sending you both hugs.
posted by Mom at 10:29 AM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Absolutely get an evaluation. Even if it’s not something diagnosable, I think that OTs are the unsung geniuses of parenting help. My son has sensory “stuff” (too young for a SPD diagnosis, not sure it would fit anyway), and we’ve made leaps and bounds of progress working with a few good OTs.
Also, one benefit of an evaluation is that it may prove it’s something medical and not behavioral. That means instead of being you vs. her, it can be you and her vs. the disorder, which has helped me so much in terms of being patient, not getting angry, and not taking behavior personally. In my son’s case, it’s not his fault!
posted by bananacabana at 10:40 AM on November 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
Also, one benefit of an evaluation is that it may prove it’s something medical and not behavioral. That means instead of being you vs. her, it can be you and her vs. the disorder, which has helped me so much in terms of being patient, not getting angry, and not taking behavior personally. In my son’s case, it’s not his fault!
posted by bananacabana at 10:40 AM on November 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
If she is behaving some of the time like you say it's important that she gets lots of positive reinforcement of what she's doing right.
posted by bleep at 11:14 AM on November 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 11:14 AM on November 23, 2019 [5 favorites]
"Or if we're out, I just grit my teeth and try to mostly let it slide and just physically stop her from hurting people as needed. And then leave early if I can."
Okay, also, stop doing this. Assume that your child will misbehave at these venues. Plan for that. You CAN leave early, and you MUST. Give yourself permission. You need to start to take control. If you feel the muscles in your mouth start to grit- then its time to leave. Sure, you can give a warning- but do it like this: daughter, its time to go and you need to finish your game, (give a nod to your friends that says you are going) daughter- choose the last game and then we are leaving. And then LEAVE.
Other sentences to use:
Child, its not okay to be that close to other kids,
Child, throwing is not okay- and we are leaving now.
Play nice, or we are GOING!
(as you remove your child from the venue) Wow, I wish that this had gone better, but it is what it is and we can try next time (then "forget"what happened and go into the next part of the daily routine)
My personal favorite: I AM HAVING A SERIOUS SENSE OF HUMOUR FAILURE AND WE ARE ABOUT TO LEAVE.
But don't try to tell your daughter off and think it will work and then get frusterated because she doesn't listen and you didn't get to finsih your chat and its embaressing because the other person is still talking and you are watching your child get nutty. Sorry! Lets chat next time! Buh bye! Be ready to grab her and go. And have a place to go. Plan this beforehand.
posted by catspajammies at 12:21 PM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
Okay, also, stop doing this. Assume that your child will misbehave at these venues. Plan for that. You CAN leave early, and you MUST. Give yourself permission. You need to start to take control. If you feel the muscles in your mouth start to grit- then its time to leave. Sure, you can give a warning- but do it like this: daughter, its time to go and you need to finish your game, (give a nod to your friends that says you are going) daughter- choose the last game and then we are leaving. And then LEAVE.
Other sentences to use:
Child, its not okay to be that close to other kids,
Child, throwing is not okay- and we are leaving now.
Play nice, or we are GOING!
(as you remove your child from the venue) Wow, I wish that this had gone better, but it is what it is and we can try next time (then "forget"what happened and go into the next part of the daily routine)
My personal favorite: I AM HAVING A SERIOUS SENSE OF HUMOUR FAILURE AND WE ARE ABOUT TO LEAVE.
But don't try to tell your daughter off and think it will work and then get frusterated because she doesn't listen and you didn't get to finsih your chat and its embaressing because the other person is still talking and you are watching your child get nutty. Sorry! Lets chat next time! Buh bye! Be ready to grab her and go. And have a place to go. Plan this beforehand.
posted by catspajammies at 12:21 PM on November 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
asking her to apologise. I quietly take her aside and talk to her. I try reasoning, I try pleading.
don't try reasoning, asking, or pleading with your own five-year-old child. Especially never pleading. the feeling of shame and cosmic helplessness that comes to you when your own mother pleads with you is one of those horrors that a child deserves to be spared at least until they're, say, fifteen and steal a car. you pleading with her is the ultimate world-turned-upside-down unboundaried nightmare.
to be clear, my mother was a fan of reasoning with any child who had the capacity for it, at any age, and so am I. but not while destructive disobedience is actually happening! and I'd say the same thing if she were fourteen, screaming, and hitting. Reasoning with someone is part of a conversation. a child who is yelling and hitting and running is not participating in any conversation and conversational tools are of no more use in such a situation than a literal hammer or screwdriver. she does not have the capacity for it at such times.
people say a child in such a situation wants attention and you shouldn't reward her by giving it to her. I'm not sure about that -- about whether or not she should get whatever it is she wants -- but I disagree that you are giving her attention. close attention to what she's doing would preclude speaking to her as if she were calmly listening and reasoning.
those people who think she has some underlying condition may be correct; I am not a physician or psychologist and cannot offer an opinion. but once she's been evaluated, you should have some idea of what she's capable of doing under stress, notwithstanding any conditions. and when she refuses to do what you're sure she's capable of, diagnosis or no diagnosis, asking and pleading will still be a very bad idea.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:36 PM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
don't try reasoning, asking, or pleading with your own five-year-old child. Especially never pleading. the feeling of shame and cosmic helplessness that comes to you when your own mother pleads with you is one of those horrors that a child deserves to be spared at least until they're, say, fifteen and steal a car. you pleading with her is the ultimate world-turned-upside-down unboundaried nightmare.
to be clear, my mother was a fan of reasoning with any child who had the capacity for it, at any age, and so am I. but not while destructive disobedience is actually happening! and I'd say the same thing if she were fourteen, screaming, and hitting. Reasoning with someone is part of a conversation. a child who is yelling and hitting and running is not participating in any conversation and conversational tools are of no more use in such a situation than a literal hammer or screwdriver. she does not have the capacity for it at such times.
people say a child in such a situation wants attention and you shouldn't reward her by giving it to her. I'm not sure about that -- about whether or not she should get whatever it is she wants -- but I disagree that you are giving her attention. close attention to what she's doing would preclude speaking to her as if she were calmly listening and reasoning.
those people who think she has some underlying condition may be correct; I am not a physician or psychologist and cannot offer an opinion. but once she's been evaluated, you should have some idea of what she's capable of doing under stress, notwithstanding any conditions. and when she refuses to do what you're sure she's capable of, diagnosis or no diagnosis, asking and pleading will still be a very bad idea.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:36 PM on November 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by slidell at 12:31 AM on November 23, 2019