PakistannnnNO thanks?

November 19, 2019 7:07 AM

I've been asked to attend a 3-day meeting in Karachi, Pakistan. While it would be cool to be included in this and I'd be helping my client out my family are not so thrilled. Is it worth it?

I, an American female, love adventure and have traveled alone all over the world, including 2.5 months in India. I also travel for business 2-3 weeks per month mainly in the US but a few international trips a year. I'm not worried about the culture shock but my family really doesn't want me to go because of the current security situation in that part of the world. Granted they all say this resigned to the fact that it's hard for me to pass up a good travel adventure.

I would be staying and working at an international chain hotel, but as a contractor I would not be covered by my client's client's security and medical team. Assume an expense account, airport transfer by the hotel, and an experienced NGO handling/rushing my visa in time.

PROS:

• Interesting to work in a different, non-Western country
• Never been to Pakistan
• Part of my client's team who gets choice international assignments (a lot potentially coming up next year)
• Great topic and doing good work that I want to be doing

CONS:

• Being a woman in Pakistan, working as a woman in Pakistan with male government-types
• I like to wander alone and I don't know that I could do that here, might not get to do any touristy things, go shopping, or have someone to go with (my usual co-workers all turned it down)
• Potential (less harrowing) international trip the following week so no exploring the region
• Long flight—4 days of travel for 3 days of work (took another 30 hour flight last month so I'm kinda over it)
• If I stick to Star Alliance, where I have status, I'm flying Turkish Air the entire way from the US right over the current Turkish Russian border mess or taking 3 flights 36+ hours around
• We fly economy class, so I try to fly United because at least I get a good seat with more legroom and free lounge access (makes a difference waiting in a foreign airport)
• Worrying my family more than usual

posted by Bunglegirl to Travel & Transportation around Karachi, Pakistan (21 answers total)

Missing in the equation - any issue for your career if you turn this down? Would client have concerns working with you in future markets and/or would your Powers That Be schedule you differently in the future?

Personally given experienced NGO, international chain, etc. I would do it.
posted by TravellingCari at 7:25 AM on November 19, 2019 [14 favorites]

Any chance you can make being covered by the medical / security team a condition of attending this?

I think this really depends on your interest in going and tolerance for risk & travel. More tolerance for travel than risk. The odds are you will be fine, but the risk is non-zero. (Risk anywhere is non-zero of course...)

If it were me I'd turn it down, but I hate travel and spent several years doing ~50% or more on the road. So I'd turn down just about any situation like this regardless of any perceived dangers. I just don't want to do it, and doubly would not want to with a second international trip looming.

You say your family doesn't want you to go - do you share any of their apprehension? If not, and this appeals to you, do it. If it doesn't, don't.
posted by jzb at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2019 [2 favorites]

Best answer: I would be staying and working at an international chain hotel

I am also an experienced solo female traveler and I would 100% do this. I am particularly respectful of local culture in Muslim countries and always mindful of safety, so I would wear a shalwar kameez, cover my head with a scarf, and really, really think about hiring a guide recommended by the hotel with a few specific destinations in mind, but I would go.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:33 AM on November 19, 2019 [20 favorites]

I assume "family" means parents/siblings and not spouse/kids? If so, then I wouldn't put much weight on their concerns, and you should definitely go. Even if it were spouse/kids, I don't think their worry automatically overrules your decision, but I think you give it more weight. If it were me, I would want to go, and my wife and daughter would likely not want me to go, so I would probably not go, but depending on other factors, I might say, "Sorry, this opportunity is too good to pass up, what if I text you hourly or do something else to make you feel better?"
posted by Rock Steady at 8:12 AM on November 19, 2019

India is a (mostly) pro-US, non-Muslim country. Have you had any experience in fairly anti-US, Muslim countries, like Iraq or Iran? If you have and it was fine for you, go, for sure. If not, I'd give it a lot of thought. There are many things that can go wrong in any international situation, but the fact that this is a serious hot spot where you will not be adequately covered by security and medical teams makes it seem very risky to me — not miss-your-flight or have-your-wallet-stolen risky but serious death-or-kidnap risky.
posted by ubiquity at 8:14 AM on November 19, 2019 [3 favorites]

Best answer: Being a woman in Pakistan, working as a woman in Pakistan with male government-types

This should not really be much of an issue. You may run into some creeps, but that's the price of being female in the world. Government-types in Pakistan are generally going to back off very quickly if you make boundaries clear.

I like to wander alone and I don't know that I could do that here, might not get to do any touristy things, go shopping, or have someone to go with (my usual co-workers all turned it down)


I would not recommend wandering alone in Karachi. If you would like to be connected to people who might be willing to show you around in a chill way, feel free to memail. I don't live there, but have many, many connections, familial, professional, and social, in the city. You can also memail if you have any more specific questions.

Do figure out medical insurance stuff.
posted by bardophile at 8:20 AM on November 19, 2019 [22 favorites]

Have you had any experience in fairly anti-US, Muslim countries, like Iraq or Iran?

This is not really a good comparison, I think. Pakistani hospitality is legendary, and is usually extended to random strangers who look like they are foreigners. In general, Pakistan and India feel very similar to each other in many ways.

(Also, Muslims are not uniquely dangerous or uniquely anti-US).
posted by bardophile at 8:27 AM on November 19, 2019 [49 favorites]

Best answer: As long as you can get medical insurance figured out, I would say go. This is a short trip, a chance to experience a unique work environment and do work you care about. It's also a chance to break some stereotypes and connect with people who we in the US are often encouraged to demonize or be afraid of.

I would not worry about interacting with Pakistani men in a professional environment. I would not wander around by yourself. Reach out to your client/company about how to arrange security/a guide, and go to Karachi!
posted by ChuraChura at 8:39 AM on November 19, 2019 [8 favorites]

Best answer: You should absolutely go, if only to, as ChuraChura says, connect with a country almost no one without family there in the US has been to visit as a tourist.

The people in your family who are telling you 'that part of the world' (What does that even mean? Asia? Countries ending in -stan?) is unsafe probably (guessing here) don't have your business/leisure travel experience since very few Americans can ever take 2.5 months off to, for example, go to India. The event may have other international guests and you'll be in a secure hotel nearly all of the time. And as bardophile says, Pakistani hospitality is wonderful. Get travel insurance (do you have an annual policy for your own leisure trips?) and definitely liaise with your employer on your safety like you would for any trip abroad, but otherwise I wouldn't worry.

I would be also amazed if upon accepting the trip you didn't get an itinerary and pre-trip pack answering a lot of your questions from your client; they will understand that this is a big ask, I think.

Also:

I'm flying Turkish Air the entire way from the US right over the current Turkish Russian border mess

It's unclear to me what you mean by this because Turkey doesn't border Russia - do you mean Turkey/Syria? If so, rest assured that flights from Istanbul to Karachi don't go that way - you'll fly west through Turkey, then over Iran and then straight to Karachi. I also have Star Alliance Gold status and in addition to happily flying to basically every country their planes can get to, Turkish Airlines have great service in economy class and a brilliant and huge lounge in the new Istanbul Airport.

We fly economy class

If you were in the pointy end of the plane I would worry less about this, but the distance here is pretty brutal and to expect you to be ready for serious governmental meetings after that is a lot to ask. Could you ask your client fly you out a day early to adjust to the time difference and jet lag? Just having a hotel room to crash in and settle into and a few hours to familiarise yourself with the place might put you and your family more at ease.

Pose the question to your client like this: 'if I'm there a day earlier, I can compose our presentation/go over last details with you/adjust to the time zone better so I can work with our audience well.' (But if they balk, reconsider your relationship with this client.)
posted by mdonley at 8:53 AM on November 19, 2019 [6 favorites]

I (white, British, AFAB, somewhat experienced traveller) would absolutely do this, especially if someone kind like bardophile could connect me with locals. A similar friend of mine went to Pakistan last year for a family wedding - as such, her activities during the trip weren't really comparable to yours, but she enjoyed the cultural experience.
posted by daisyk at 9:01 AM on November 19, 2019

as a contractor I would not be covered by my client's client's security and medical team

If the others who are going are covered and you are not, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Any chance you can negotiate on this for this specific trip or pay for it yourself so that you're covered?
posted by vivzan at 9:03 AM on November 19, 2019 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: I assume "family" means parents/siblings and not spouse/kids?
Mother and live-in partner. Partner was also offered the job and said no way, jose but understands why I want to go. For clarification, my family has experienced me going to many countries ending in -stan and are understanding and tolerant of cultural differences even if they have not traveled themselves.

Have you had any experience in fairly anti-US, Muslim countries, like Iraq or Iran?
Uzbekistan is the only place I've felt unwelcome as an American by locals (usually it's other, Western travelers who give me a hard time as an American everywhere else). I would dress conservatively in loose clothes, but would have to fly in early to buy clothes and this is an international meeting so I feel a bit weird about cultural appropriation dressing as a local.

- do you mean Turkey/Syria?
Yes, a previous map I looked at showed going right over the border. I don't pay attention to that stuff often, except Russian-affiliated groups have a history of targeting planes. I would fly in the day before, so technically I have most of a day to adjust... but it's still not great.

What level of "security" is important/typical to ask for?
posted by Bunglegirl at 9:03 AM on November 19, 2019 [2 favorites]

Best answer: Please don't worry about cultural appropriation. I have yet to meet a Pakistani who didn't find a Westerner in desi clothes incredibly endearing. But also, if you can wear a slightly long top over slacks, you don't need to worry about necessarily rushing to buy shalwar kameez. And unless you are going to a mosque, no one will expect you to cover your head.
posted by bardophile at 9:11 AM on November 19, 2019 [8 favorites]

I'm surprised that your family is worried about your traveling to Karachi on a work-sponsored trip after you spent 2.5 months in India (of all places) as a female solo traveler and made it through safely.
posted by shaademaan at 9:28 AM on November 19, 2019

Regarding the back to back travel is there any way you can arrange this so you go from Karachi to the next destination, making an argument that the amount of travel time would be reduced (giving more time to work) and quite possibly also a more economical option? It seems ludicrous to fly back and then out again immediately.

I would however absolutely not go on any international trip for which my employer doesn’t have appropriate insurance including medical cover.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:31 AM on November 19, 2019 [2 favorites]

"Have you had any experience in fairly anti-US, Muslim countries, like Iraq or Iran?"

With all due respect, this is incredibly ignorant. I'm from that part of the world and Iranians love Americans and Pakistanis are very kind to foreigners. And most of Pakistan is nothing like Iran and vice versa. Anti-American sentiment is the least of your problems in these places.
posted by shaademaan at 9:36 AM on November 19, 2019 [31 favorites]

I don't know much about Pakistan, but I do know long haul flights. Is this 36 hours each way? Because that's brutal. I'd try to shoehorn a 12+hour layover and a sleep into the flight coming back if you can.
posted by kjs4 at 4:41 PM on November 19, 2019

I have a female colleague who regularly spends a month or so in Pakistan (including Karachi, but also further afield) for research purposes. She says it feels extremely safe, and she loves it. She is always trying to persuade everyone else to go as well. She is not white, (though not South Asian either) and she is not American, which may mean she gets a different response from locals than a white American would, if that's what you are.

I wouldn't do it without insurance though. You definitely need to get that sorted.
posted by lollusc at 4:55 PM on November 19, 2019 [1 favorite]

I would absolutely love to have this opportunity and would say yes! Other MeFites have given you great advice above and you can continue to work out the details with your host. I think the reason you are asking this here is because you want to go but just need a little push, so here it is!

You are an experienced traveler, both professionally and personally, which means you already have great skills. With the support of your host and connections thanks to lovely people like bardophile, you will most certainly stay safe and have a good time. While I haven't been to Pakistan yet myself, it's a country I've always wanted to visit due to the awesome cultural opportunities and wonderful Pakistani people I've met in the US and beyond. It's such a shame that Pakistan, a place known for its hospitality and kindness, is somewhere so many of us from the US, etc. often only associate bad things with. I love the US but it can be a really dangerous country itself with nearly constant mass shootings and incredibly cruel political leaders at present who are literally promoting xenophobic violence through words and policies. Thank goodness foreigners are willing to take the risk to come visit us, right?!
posted by smorgasbord at 10:16 AM on November 20, 2019

I (white American woman) was in a similar situation a few years ago but Islamabad instead of Karachi, I went, it was wonderful.

I would recommend trying to get covered by the security/medical team, if only for your own peace of mind, and get in contact with whoever is planning the meeting if you can, they should be able to provide resources and be able to answer questions about hiring a guide, etc (the hotel should also be able to assist here. Don't be afraid of asking what feels like silly or stupid questions - they have heard it all and they are there to help).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 11:11 AM on November 20, 2019

I wanted to clarify something I phrased awkwardly: I am particularly respectful of local culture in Muslim countries and always mindful of safety should probably have been I am always mindful of safety and particularly respectful of local culture in Muslim countries. IE it isn't a country being Muslim that makes me careful of my safety, it's the solo female travel aspect.

The suggestion to wear salwar kameez comes from other women who have soloed Pakistan, and is pretty standard advice for this destination. I wear a scarf because it doubles down on the message that I choose to project. In a professional setting or when accompanied by a guide, I'm sure just dressing modestly would be fine.

Enjoy!
posted by DarlingBri at 1:00 PM on November 20, 2019