Anyone know of any effective strategies for reframing "fun"?
October 1, 2019 6:08 AM Subscribe
I'm very good at forcing myself to do really big, difficult, long term mental tasks. I'm terrible at prioritizing anything else (eg fun or escapist) and feel guilty if I'm not working towards a big, long term goal. Any advice? Too many snowflake details within.
I've always been "academically oriented." School was always my top priority. Once college ended, I sort of had to grapple with the open ended-ness if life and sort of incrementally over time, the "always be studying ethic" that helped me do very well in college and then in my career as a programmer sort of...has taken over my life. I generally always have some sort of big cerebral project I'm working on, and more down the line. Learning Spanish, becoming a more masterful programmer, diving into category theory (a type of path), learning Mandarin, now learning Japanese...I'm pretty good at maintaining the energy to accomplish things that take a lot of time and mental energy and discipline. The downside is that this is to the exclusion of other things I'd like to do, but which don't quite have the perceived "usefulness" of other things.
In general, I tend to prioritize long term mastery of things. The things I find very hard to prioritize are things like...reading a trashy novel; playing the untitled goose game; watching season 2 of Westworld. I guess just generally "escapism." Over time I've come to feel intensely guilty when I engage in escapism. I play a video game and it is fun, but after the first hour I feel like: "this is time that I could really use to level up my Japanese..."
The issue is that there is a lot of positive reinforcement: big, long term, "useful" things are often, well, quite rewarding. And I think ever since I was young I really internalized the fact that life is short and our time is so limited (though I realize this is all silly because in the same vein, life is short and we die in the end). Furthermore, I feel society is full of people who talk and talk about all the things they'd do "if they just had the time!" and then just end up being intensely mediocre because they only ever prioritize netflix (that sounds very harsh, I'm not that mean, I'm just trying to paint a scene of what happens in my head if I sit down to watch some TV).
And I mean..."great things" take a lot of work! Big changes, big improvements, new skills...
I'm just not sure how to think about this. Is it healthy? I mean, I'm happy. I've done a lot of things I'm proud of. I've lived an interesting life thus far and have a good career. But I've always sacrificed a lot in my ruthless prioritization of this stuff. I have no regrets, but I do want to take a step back. I just have no idea how to think about the tradeoffs between long term rewards and short term entertainment. And the guilty has gotten bad enough that I think it is a bit unhealthy, in a "OCD" type way or something (OCD in quotes because I'm aware how many people use OCD as a catch-all for minor compulsions; I've see therapists before but not about this; I almost certainly have anxiety and am at risk for depression but I don't take medicine and have pretty good coping methods, though I think my coping methods reinforce the obsessive studying because it gives me a sense of control and long term satisfaction, which is a nice bulwark against the re-rise of nazism and destruction of the climate).
My current "coping methods":
- Bundle fun things with longer term things. Watch the trashy TV in Mandarin and it becomes "studying." This is extremely effective, until I end up getting good enough at Mandarin or whatever that it feels hard to justify, and then I start chasing harder and harder TV or books or whatever (I'm currently working towards reading the 4 great novels for example)
- Not allowing myself to take on any bit new hobbies. I have enough languages to maintain, enough books I want to read...if I have free time, I should either use it for them or relax. This has helped some, but if free time becomes ample enough the pressure to reorganize my life and use that free time to some sort of longer term goes up exponentially
Otherwise, I study pretty obsessively. I have burn out before, but it takes an inhuman amount of time, and I usually bounce back pretty quickly. I'm just trying to describe it in a straightforward matter: part of the problem is that I've gotten very effective at living life this way: strip responsibilities and obligations. Obsessively pursue goal.
I guess an example might be helpful: the year before quitting my job to move to China, I studied Mandarin 35+ hours a week for over a year, while still having a full time job.
Once in China, I studied Chinese 8-10 hours a day, basically every waking moment that I wasn't talking to people, I was studying. Of course, that's the reason I went. I did burn out once, but that was after reviewing flash cards at home 10 hours a day for 4-5 months. I ended up reading comics for a month then getting back to my studies.
I've been studying Japanese for a year, on average 6-10 hours a day (while living in China). Lately I've been trying hard to prioritize other things...to still study, but to let myself have fun, enjoy China etc. I've always wanted to play Ars Magica so I'm letting myself prioritize that. It's really interesting, but the guilt around reading those source books instead of Japanese is extremely intense, thus prompting (I should note I still review 90 minutes of Japanese flash cards every day, and generally have 2 hours of 1:1 conversation...but I could do more!). I'm trying hard to make space for escapist things...TTRPGs, and I'd like to get into gardening (maybe Bonsai trees?). Still, the guilt is real, and I'm curious if others have effective strategies for dealing with this sort of thing.
I've always been "academically oriented." School was always my top priority. Once college ended, I sort of had to grapple with the open ended-ness if life and sort of incrementally over time, the "always be studying ethic" that helped me do very well in college and then in my career as a programmer sort of...has taken over my life. I generally always have some sort of big cerebral project I'm working on, and more down the line. Learning Spanish, becoming a more masterful programmer, diving into category theory (a type of path), learning Mandarin, now learning Japanese...I'm pretty good at maintaining the energy to accomplish things that take a lot of time and mental energy and discipline. The downside is that this is to the exclusion of other things I'd like to do, but which don't quite have the perceived "usefulness" of other things.
In general, I tend to prioritize long term mastery of things. The things I find very hard to prioritize are things like...reading a trashy novel; playing the untitled goose game; watching season 2 of Westworld. I guess just generally "escapism." Over time I've come to feel intensely guilty when I engage in escapism. I play a video game and it is fun, but after the first hour I feel like: "this is time that I could really use to level up my Japanese..."
The issue is that there is a lot of positive reinforcement: big, long term, "useful" things are often, well, quite rewarding. And I think ever since I was young I really internalized the fact that life is short and our time is so limited (though I realize this is all silly because in the same vein, life is short and we die in the end). Furthermore, I feel society is full of people who talk and talk about all the things they'd do "if they just had the time!" and then just end up being intensely mediocre because they only ever prioritize netflix (that sounds very harsh, I'm not that mean, I'm just trying to paint a scene of what happens in my head if I sit down to watch some TV).
And I mean..."great things" take a lot of work! Big changes, big improvements, new skills...
I'm just not sure how to think about this. Is it healthy? I mean, I'm happy. I've done a lot of things I'm proud of. I've lived an interesting life thus far and have a good career. But I've always sacrificed a lot in my ruthless prioritization of this stuff. I have no regrets, but I do want to take a step back. I just have no idea how to think about the tradeoffs between long term rewards and short term entertainment. And the guilty has gotten bad enough that I think it is a bit unhealthy, in a "OCD" type way or something (OCD in quotes because I'm aware how many people use OCD as a catch-all for minor compulsions; I've see therapists before but not about this; I almost certainly have anxiety and am at risk for depression but I don't take medicine and have pretty good coping methods, though I think my coping methods reinforce the obsessive studying because it gives me a sense of control and long term satisfaction, which is a nice bulwark against the re-rise of nazism and destruction of the climate).
My current "coping methods":
- Bundle fun things with longer term things. Watch the trashy TV in Mandarin and it becomes "studying." This is extremely effective, until I end up getting good enough at Mandarin or whatever that it feels hard to justify, and then I start chasing harder and harder TV or books or whatever (I'm currently working towards reading the 4 great novels for example)
- Not allowing myself to take on any bit new hobbies. I have enough languages to maintain, enough books I want to read...if I have free time, I should either use it for them or relax. This has helped some, but if free time becomes ample enough the pressure to reorganize my life and use that free time to some sort of longer term goes up exponentially
Otherwise, I study pretty obsessively. I have burn out before, but it takes an inhuman amount of time, and I usually bounce back pretty quickly. I'm just trying to describe it in a straightforward matter: part of the problem is that I've gotten very effective at living life this way: strip responsibilities and obligations. Obsessively pursue goal.
I guess an example might be helpful: the year before quitting my job to move to China, I studied Mandarin 35+ hours a week for over a year, while still having a full time job.
Once in China, I studied Chinese 8-10 hours a day, basically every waking moment that I wasn't talking to people, I was studying. Of course, that's the reason I went. I did burn out once, but that was after reviewing flash cards at home 10 hours a day for 4-5 months. I ended up reading comics for a month then getting back to my studies.
I've been studying Japanese for a year, on average 6-10 hours a day (while living in China). Lately I've been trying hard to prioritize other things...to still study, but to let myself have fun, enjoy China etc. I've always wanted to play Ars Magica so I'm letting myself prioritize that. It's really interesting, but the guilt around reading those source books instead of Japanese is extremely intense, thus prompting (I should note I still review 90 minutes of Japanese flash cards every day, and generally have 2 hours of 1:1 conversation...but I could do more!). I'm trying hard to make space for escapist things...TTRPGs, and I'd like to get into gardening (maybe Bonsai trees?). Still, the guilt is real, and I'm curious if others have effective strategies for dealing with this sort of thing.
The things I find very hard to prioritize are things like...reading a trashy novel; playing the untitled goose game; watching season 2 of Westworld. I guess just generally "escapism." Over time I've come to feel intensely guilty when I engage in escapism.
Can you tell whether you actually think these things are fun, apart from the guilt you feel? None of that would be fun for me.
Do you have fun (experience pleasure) when you’re studying languages?
It’s ok if things that other people consider hard work only, and that take effort for you, are also things you find fun. Some people think running ultra-marathons are fun, or building houses. Speaking of the physical—could you try some projects that aren’t mental, like baking a loaf of bread or doing a puzzle, and see if you have fun doing that and if it stops your mind from running?
posted by sallybrown at 6:33 AM on October 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Can you tell whether you actually think these things are fun, apart from the guilt you feel? None of that would be fun for me.
Do you have fun (experience pleasure) when you’re studying languages?
It’s ok if things that other people consider hard work only, and that take effort for you, are also things you find fun. Some people think running ultra-marathons are fun, or building houses. Speaking of the physical—could you try some projects that aren’t mental, like baking a loaf of bread or doing a puzzle, and see if you have fun doing that and if it stops your mind from running?
posted by sallybrown at 6:33 AM on October 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
This is probably off-target, but do you ever have a drink or two? Or smoke / eat some cannabis? Sometimes our brains need a bit of help to relax...
posted by sixswitch at 6:39 AM on October 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by sixswitch at 6:39 AM on October 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: > Can you tell whether you actually think these things are fun, apart from the guilt you feel? None of that would be fun for me.
I love reading novels of all sorts and would enjoy playing the odd video game here and there.
I enjoy studying languages, but in more of a "training for the Olympics" kind of way. It's a very meaningful end result. The process itself can often be quite grueling (if you want to improve efficiently/quickly). So it's not unpleasant, but it's not fun in the way that catching up on a comic book is.
> This is probably off-target, but do you ever have a drink or two? Or smoke / eat some cannabis? Sometimes our brains need a bit of help to relax...
Not really. The reasons are varied, but I think it's relevant to the overall post. How often should one drink? Or smoke? These are sort of the ultimate non-productive activities.
posted by wooh at 6:46 AM on October 1, 2019
I love reading novels of all sorts and would enjoy playing the odd video game here and there.
I enjoy studying languages, but in more of a "training for the Olympics" kind of way. It's a very meaningful end result. The process itself can often be quite grueling (if you want to improve efficiently/quickly). So it's not unpleasant, but it's not fun in the way that catching up on a comic book is.
> This is probably off-target, but do you ever have a drink or two? Or smoke / eat some cannabis? Sometimes our brains need a bit of help to relax...
Not really. The reasons are varied, but I think it's relevant to the overall post. How often should one drink? Or smoke? These are sort of the ultimate non-productive activities.
posted by wooh at 6:46 AM on October 1, 2019
The things I find very hard to prioritize are things like...reading a trashy novel; playing the untitled goose game; watching season 2 of Westworld. I guess just generally "escapism." Over time I've come to feel intensely guilty when I engage in escapism. I play a video game and it is fun, but after the first hour I feel like: "this is time that I could really use to level up my Japanese..."
I would have fun doing any of those things and also feel The Big Guilts when I'm not Being Productive. What I have done to combat this, despite everyone insisting it's a bad idea and will just "make leisure time a chore!!" is to make lists and goals and view leisure activities as working towards that goal. I keep a complete list of every book I want to read, every show/movie I want to watch, every pattern I want to knit, every game I want to play, every article I want to read. I don't set goals for all of them, but right now my goal is to read 75 books this year and finish playing my entire Kingdom Hearts collection by Christmas. It's so much easier to convince my brain to do these things without guilt because suddenly I'm making progress on a project instead of just "goofing off." Having such massively long lists also motivates me because if I want to make a dent in them I actually have to make a concentrated effort.
One component of this though is I really do value art and stories and so find those activities worthwhile. I'm also of the opinion that even trashy novels can show you something about the world (my favorite trashy paranormal action novel series has some surprisingly great themes about trauma and accepting help). So thinking about it in that way helps.
I've also started trying to recognize when I can't make good progress on a "more productive" thing because I'm too tired, have too much of a headache, can't focus enough, etc. In those instances I used to just end up aimlessly refreshing internet pages because I felt like I "should" be doing work, wasn't able to force myself to, but didn't feel like I "deserved" to go do something fun instead. Paying more attention to my body's signals and realizing when I can't make good progress on my thesis in this state, but I could make progress on a video game, really helps. I get more leisure time and spend less time feeling guilty while pointlessly refreshing Metafilter and Facebook (which I was not enjoying).
posted by brook horse at 6:52 AM on October 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
I would have fun doing any of those things and also feel The Big Guilts when I'm not Being Productive. What I have done to combat this, despite everyone insisting it's a bad idea and will just "make leisure time a chore!!" is to make lists and goals and view leisure activities as working towards that goal. I keep a complete list of every book I want to read, every show/movie I want to watch, every pattern I want to knit, every game I want to play, every article I want to read. I don't set goals for all of them, but right now my goal is to read 75 books this year and finish playing my entire Kingdom Hearts collection by Christmas. It's so much easier to convince my brain to do these things without guilt because suddenly I'm making progress on a project instead of just "goofing off." Having such massively long lists also motivates me because if I want to make a dent in them I actually have to make a concentrated effort.
One component of this though is I really do value art and stories and so find those activities worthwhile. I'm also of the opinion that even trashy novels can show you something about the world (my favorite trashy paranormal action novel series has some surprisingly great themes about trauma and accepting help). So thinking about it in that way helps.
I've also started trying to recognize when I can't make good progress on a "more productive" thing because I'm too tired, have too much of a headache, can't focus enough, etc. In those instances I used to just end up aimlessly refreshing internet pages because I felt like I "should" be doing work, wasn't able to force myself to, but didn't feel like I "deserved" to go do something fun instead. Paying more attention to my body's signals and realizing when I can't make good progress on my thesis in this state, but I could make progress on a video game, really helps. I get more leisure time and spend less time feeling guilty while pointlessly refreshing Metafilter and Facebook (which I was not enjoying).
posted by brook horse at 6:52 AM on October 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Also when it comes to cooking that's a good example of an activity this mindset ruined. At one point I tried to get into cooking but I ended up getting just too mired in details. I love good food and have a real sensitivity to details. As such I could taste every deficiency, and started researching in depth about food science and whatnot and eventually just burnt out.
In general, if I take on activity, my goal is to be in the say, top 95% percentile. Otherwise I just don't do it, because in my mind it's clear I'm not willing to prioritize it accordingly. I'm not saying this is right -- just explaining how this tendency can really get out of hand.
I want to try and get into plant stuff because I think the overall time sink potential is small, though I could imagine getting extremely obsessed with the details of like, why my plants aren't perfect, exactly how much water they need, how to get perfect nutrition, etc.
posted by wooh at 6:54 AM on October 1, 2019
In general, if I take on activity, my goal is to be in the say, top 95% percentile. Otherwise I just don't do it, because in my mind it's clear I'm not willing to prioritize it accordingly. I'm not saying this is right -- just explaining how this tendency can really get out of hand.
I want to try and get into plant stuff because I think the overall time sink potential is small, though I could imagine getting extremely obsessed with the details of like, why my plants aren't perfect, exactly how much water they need, how to get perfect nutrition, etc.
posted by wooh at 6:54 AM on October 1, 2019
After reading your follow-up comments, I don't think your question is so much about "how do I prioritize fun" as much as it's "how do I switch off the compulsion to always be in the top percentile in every last thing I do".
I also notice, too, that you say that you are happy. If you're happy, then....maybe this is what works for you. In which case, I suggest that you ask yourself why you asked this question in the first place, and explore those feelings. Are you comparing yourself to others and noticing they have hobbies and you don't, and you wonder if that's weird? Have others said that they're concerned about you? Those are different questions, and in my experience, figuring out the right question is an important part of answering it.
But if you maybe aren't quite as happy deep down, then...I would explore where this "I must always be pursuing excellence" feeling comes from. I have a hunch you may have been through a similar "gifted child" thing as I did, and this may just be how it's manifesting, where you are completely driven to always be Head of The Class. That may also help you figure out how to proceed.
But I'm a bit dubious that "finding an effective strategy for re-framing fun" is really the best approach - without finding out the root of what is necessitating this reframing. I think you may want to explore how you got to the point of asking this question - and then address that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:53 AM on October 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
I also notice, too, that you say that you are happy. If you're happy, then....maybe this is what works for you. In which case, I suggest that you ask yourself why you asked this question in the first place, and explore those feelings. Are you comparing yourself to others and noticing they have hobbies and you don't, and you wonder if that's weird? Have others said that they're concerned about you? Those are different questions, and in my experience, figuring out the right question is an important part of answering it.
But if you maybe aren't quite as happy deep down, then...I would explore where this "I must always be pursuing excellence" feeling comes from. I have a hunch you may have been through a similar "gifted child" thing as I did, and this may just be how it's manifesting, where you are completely driven to always be Head of The Class. That may also help you figure out how to proceed.
But I'm a bit dubious that "finding an effective strategy for re-framing fun" is really the best approach - without finding out the root of what is necessitating this reframing. I think you may want to explore how you got to the point of asking this question - and then address that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:53 AM on October 1, 2019 [15 favorites]
Maybe your new goal should be to get good at being relaxed and enjoyable to be around, like in the 95% percentile.
Does that sound silly to you? Maybe it should. Most things in life don't have percentile rankings. That's for standardized tests, baby weights, and not much else. And you do know most people hold standardized tests in low esteem these days, right?
You originally framed this in terms of "academic" mindset but on update I think your problems are really more about competition, perfectionism, and ranking, so it might be worth thinking on that for a while. The most accomplished scholars and academics I know don't ever think or talk about percentiles or rankings. Instead, they strive mainly to understand, and to increase our collective understanding.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:56 AM on October 1, 2019 [9 favorites]
Does that sound silly to you? Maybe it should. Most things in life don't have percentile rankings. That's for standardized tests, baby weights, and not much else. And you do know most people hold standardized tests in low esteem these days, right?
You originally framed this in terms of "academic" mindset but on update I think your problems are really more about competition, perfectionism, and ranking, so it might be worth thinking on that for a while. The most accomplished scholars and academics I know don't ever think or talk about percentiles or rankings. Instead, they strive mainly to understand, and to increase our collective understanding.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:56 AM on October 1, 2019 [9 favorites]
One thing I do when I'm having trouble allowing myself down time is that I tell myself that it is my job to relax for the next X hours. I remember that I'm much more able to be productive when I've let my brain turn off. Perhaps framing "fun" as "investing in future greater productivity" might help?
posted by mcduff at 7:56 AM on October 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by mcduff at 7:56 AM on October 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
“The folklore among knitters is that everything handmade should have at least one mistake so an evil sprit will not become trapped in the maze of perfect stitches. A missed increase or decrease, a crooked seam, a place where the tension is uneven - the mistake is a crack left open to let in the light. The evil sprit I want to usher out of my knitting and my life is at once a spirit of laziness and of over-achieving. It’s that little voice in my head that says, I won’t even try this because it doesn’t come naturally to me and I won’t be very good at it.”
Kyoko Mori, ‘Yarn’
posted by sohalt at 8:32 AM on October 1, 2019 [16 favorites]
Kyoko Mori, ‘Yarn’
posted by sohalt at 8:32 AM on October 1, 2019 [16 favorites]
What you say is very familiar. Ditto what EmpressCallipygos said, including the 'gifted' thing.
In my perspective, there are (at least) two ways to work on things you care about: 1) by following performance and 'perfection', and 2) by following desire and play. I think both are necessary, and in many projects, best mixed together in varying amounts. Imagine these as muscles. I feel like you're mostly using the former.
An example is: While learning to cook, you might want 40% of 'performance', and 60% of 'desire and play'. Without that last part, you might not find yourself truly able to invent, create, relax, play, and find interesting realms of study that are truly important to you.
In my late 20s I went through a process of trying to understand where, exactly, my own need for perfection and drive comes from. It's entangled with ideas of guilt, identity, being a 'gifted child', "doing well". Trying to do better = trying to 'be' better. Or in other words, doing something well is connected to being a better person, increasing my self-worth. 'If I don't do well, it means I'm less of a good person.'
Now I see that this is most often massively unhealthy. I am trying to be curious and playful about things, and to exercise my desire muscle, disentangling projects and self-worth.
I think it would be helpful for you to examine yourself and notice what you feel when you cook and make a dish that isn't quite good. Do you think, "oh, but it could/should be so much better"? Do you feel guilt or embarrassment if others eat that dish? Do you have an image of "the perfect dish" or "perfect cooking process" in your mind, and are you constantly striving to hit that ideal?
Similarly, when you want to have fun, do you feel guilty? Do you have an image of 'the perfect self' or 'the ideal self'? Who, other than yourself, enforces or expects these images of you? Family, friends, acquaintances? Do you ever feel expected to uphold or to live up to their image of you?
Are you generous with others? If other friends around you are playing or having fun, are you judgmental about them? What happens if you view yourself the way you view them?
posted by many more sunsets at 9:04 AM on October 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
In my perspective, there are (at least) two ways to work on things you care about: 1) by following performance and 'perfection', and 2) by following desire and play. I think both are necessary, and in many projects, best mixed together in varying amounts. Imagine these as muscles. I feel like you're mostly using the former.
An example is: While learning to cook, you might want 40% of 'performance', and 60% of 'desire and play'. Without that last part, you might not find yourself truly able to invent, create, relax, play, and find interesting realms of study that are truly important to you.
In my late 20s I went through a process of trying to understand where, exactly, my own need for perfection and drive comes from. It's entangled with ideas of guilt, identity, being a 'gifted child', "doing well". Trying to do better = trying to 'be' better. Or in other words, doing something well is connected to being a better person, increasing my self-worth. 'If I don't do well, it means I'm less of a good person.'
Now I see that this is most often massively unhealthy. I am trying to be curious and playful about things, and to exercise my desire muscle, disentangling projects and self-worth.
I think it would be helpful for you to examine yourself and notice what you feel when you cook and make a dish that isn't quite good. Do you think, "oh, but it could/should be so much better"? Do you feel guilt or embarrassment if others eat that dish? Do you have an image of "the perfect dish" or "perfect cooking process" in your mind, and are you constantly striving to hit that ideal?
Similarly, when you want to have fun, do you feel guilty? Do you have an image of 'the perfect self' or 'the ideal self'? Who, other than yourself, enforces or expects these images of you? Family, friends, acquaintances? Do you ever feel expected to uphold or to live up to their image of you?
Are you generous with others? If other friends around you are playing or having fun, are you judgmental about them? What happens if you view yourself the way you view them?
posted by many more sunsets at 9:04 AM on October 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Imagine you play Hide And Seek...
You are strategic, you understand this game and people's blindspots, so you are quick to find the best hiding spot.
You hide so well that no one can find you. After an hour or two, no one is seeking anymore. And now they have moved on to a different activity together, having forgotten about you. You have won the game, and you are the only one who knows, hiding away, you lonely champion.
Even your question about how often someone should someone should drink beer is getting at "the perfect way" to get stoned, sounds like you are trying to get it right (trying not to get it wrong), and sounds isolating.
What you are doing may be isolating you.
It might be interesting to try an activity where you can't win through strategy.
Get a massage. Your role is to be still and relax.
Play a card game like War where you win only by luck.
Find an activity where your role is to be blindly led by others
The ultimate test: go with some friends to an Escape Room and don't say a helpful word the entire time. Don't help, don't make suggestions , don't make guesses. Just follow the directions of others. If you can SURRENDER to that (I bet it would drive you crazy!) then you are making progress.
posted by jander03 at 9:33 AM on October 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
You are strategic, you understand this game and people's blindspots, so you are quick to find the best hiding spot.
You hide so well that no one can find you. After an hour or two, no one is seeking anymore. And now they have moved on to a different activity together, having forgotten about you. You have won the game, and you are the only one who knows, hiding away, you lonely champion.
Even your question about how often someone should someone should drink beer is getting at "the perfect way" to get stoned, sounds like you are trying to get it right (trying not to get it wrong), and sounds isolating.
What you are doing may be isolating you.
It might be interesting to try an activity where you can't win through strategy.
Get a massage. Your role is to be still and relax.
Play a card game like War where you win only by luck.
Find an activity where your role is to be blindly led by others
The ultimate test: go with some friends to an Escape Room and don't say a helpful word the entire time. Don't help, don't make suggestions , don't make guesses. Just follow the directions of others. If you can SURRENDER to that (I bet it would drive you crazy!) then you are making progress.
posted by jander03 at 9:33 AM on October 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
In general, if I take on activity, my goal is to be in the say, top 95% percentile.
You can't do that with cooking. The ROA is too low for you to turn out five-star-chef-level meals. Meanwhile you have to cook because you need to eat, and eating out/eating prepared food is putting you in like the 50% percentile for getting the nutrition you need to sustain life most efficiently while saving the max money. So cooking is an ideal place to start because it will both excite and thwart your excellence compulsion. And it's really fun. Here, here are some cakes to make. (Just kidding: these are the exact cakes not to try to make because they're ridiculously perfect. Watch the cakes get made and then go make scrambled eggs or chocolate chip cookies and don't try to get everything perfect, just make some food and eat it and be glad you're eating something delicious you made and not instead spending an entire day trying and failing to make one of those cakes.)
I want to try and get into plant stuff because I think the overall time sink potential is small
...hah? Where'd you get that notion? The overall timesink potential for trying to grow plants is infinite, as is the opportunity to get it horribly wrong.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:08 AM on October 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
You can't do that with cooking. The ROA is too low for you to turn out five-star-chef-level meals. Meanwhile you have to cook because you need to eat, and eating out/eating prepared food is putting you in like the 50% percentile for getting the nutrition you need to sustain life most efficiently while saving the max money. So cooking is an ideal place to start because it will both excite and thwart your excellence compulsion. And it's really fun. Here, here are some cakes to make. (Just kidding: these are the exact cakes not to try to make because they're ridiculously perfect. Watch the cakes get made and then go make scrambled eggs or chocolate chip cookies and don't try to get everything perfect, just make some food and eat it and be glad you're eating something delicious you made and not instead spending an entire day trying and failing to make one of those cakes.)
I want to try and get into plant stuff because I think the overall time sink potential is small
...hah? Where'd you get that notion? The overall timesink potential for trying to grow plants is infinite, as is the opportunity to get it horribly wrong.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:08 AM on October 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Perhaps this course on playfulness may be of interest to you.
posted by hannahelastic at 11:09 AM on October 1, 2019
posted by hannahelastic at 11:09 AM on October 1, 2019
I’ve known several old people who had lived their whole lives working all the time, and some of them were content and some weren’t. You might not need to change your way of being much, it’s okay to be unusual. It might not work with raising a family, though.
Are your long term efforts themselves directed toward a higher goal: an increase in knowledge, an artistic work, the common good? Do you wake up wanting to pick up right where you left off? Are you contemptuous of people who don’t work all the time? If you get weaker as you age, will you be contemptuous of yourself?
For “how much fun?” you could try from sunset to when you fall asleep one day a week. If that perks you up, try a whole 24 hour cycle off.
posted by clew at 12:10 PM on October 1, 2019
Are your long term efforts themselves directed toward a higher goal: an increase in knowledge, an artistic work, the common good? Do you wake up wanting to pick up right where you left off? Are you contemptuous of people who don’t work all the time? If you get weaker as you age, will you be contemptuous of yourself?
For “how much fun?” you could try from sunset to when you fall asleep one day a week. If that perks you up, try a whole 24 hour cycle off.
posted by clew at 12:10 PM on October 1, 2019
I recognize this is a slightly different topic but it feels resonant - I asked “how to buy nice things” recently and I bet the mindset described in some of the answers could be helpful to answering your question.
posted by seemoorglass at 12:13 PM on October 1, 2019
posted by seemoorglass at 12:13 PM on October 1, 2019
Do you get any exercise? Most people like you, I know lots in science and engineering, have their fun doing things like skiing or climbing which combine attention to detail and exhilaration into one activity. Plus healthy time. Plus social time.
Maybe be ware of long distamce running though. You seem like the type who'd end up doing multi day endurance races through Death Valley pretty quick.
posted by fshgrl at 3:48 PM on October 1, 2019
Maybe be ware of long distamce running though. You seem like the type who'd end up doing multi day endurance races through Death Valley pretty quick.
posted by fshgrl at 3:48 PM on October 1, 2019
I think actually the exercises in You Are Not A Rock might help you a lot with separating doing things compulsively vs. because they're taking you somewhere you're excited to go -- especially because being the type of highly-conscientious person you seem to be, you probably will actually do the exercises.
posted by en forme de poire at 6:10 PM on October 1, 2019
posted by en forme de poire at 6:10 PM on October 1, 2019
Perhaps try meditating. It’s not “fun” per se, but even if you strive to be the best at it - which is not the point but I feel you may do ;-) - it will help clear your mind and will force you to become more comfortable with sitting there a while and not accomplishing something more tangible.
posted by sillysally at 8:37 PM on October 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by sillysally at 8:37 PM on October 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also, try to think of something “fun”, maybe something physical, that you really think you will NEVER be good at. Skiing for some people. Or singing. But really really focus on something that while you can improve you will physically never be able to be in the 95th percentile. What are you TERRIBLE at (besides relaxing)? :)
Then go out and do that a while and see if you can learn to enjoy the process while not becoming a master. Learning some, improving some is fine of course, but learn to enjoy it even though you know you could never possibly be great at it. Maybe you can translate that new skill (the skill of just enjoying) back into other non-productive things like watching trashy tv
posted by sillysally at 8:44 PM on October 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Then go out and do that a while and see if you can learn to enjoy the process while not becoming a master. Learning some, improving some is fine of course, but learn to enjoy it even though you know you could never possibly be great at it. Maybe you can translate that new skill (the skill of just enjoying) back into other non-productive things like watching trashy tv
posted by sillysally at 8:44 PM on October 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Another "non-productive" thing you can try is listening to music or going to look at some visual art or getting into nature. It's possible to do this in a very achievement-oriented sense where you read all the classics or get really into dissecting Schoenberg or find a lot of historically-important trails, but I'm more talking about the aesthetic response: noticing what feelings art and music and nature bring up in you, and how you react to them. What kind of things do you naturally gravitate towards? What is it that you're responding to (or not)? Are there pieces of art that are not particularly technically brilliant that you still really enjoy? You might try going to a museum, maybe of something you wouldn't normally be interested in, and just wandering around without an itinerary until you find yourself reacting to something. You can't "win" or be "the best" at that because there's no real goal in the first place. The emotional reactions you might get as a result may also point you in some interesting directions, maybe things that are currently getting crowded out by your impressive focus on achievement.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:19 PM on October 1, 2019
posted by en forme de poire at 9:19 PM on October 1, 2019
A mantra for you: it's OK to not be the best. Having fun is just as worthwhile as mastering a skill. Not being superhuman is OK.
Repeat as necessary every time you start feeling like you start feeling guilty about having fun, or like you have to master a new skill, or like you have to be the best.
posted by Ahniya at 5:00 PM on October 3, 2019
Repeat as necessary every time you start feeling like you start feeling guilty about having fun, or like you have to master a new skill, or like you have to be the best.
posted by Ahniya at 5:00 PM on October 3, 2019
This thread is closed to new comments.
Practicing ABC’s or addition? That’s work.
Building LEGO towers? Also work.
Climbing on the playground? Still another kind of work.
It’s all work, right? Everything is challenging, every activity can be viewed as an opportunity for practice and improvement.
I’m increasingly attracted to that mindset, and seeing the benefits in myself and the kiddo.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:20 AM on October 1, 2019 [4 favorites]