Do we keep the dog?
August 30, 2019 2:21 AM   Subscribe

Our neighbor is moving from our rural area to a small city apartment. He has asked if we would be willing to keep his big country dog. We have always said we don't want a dog, should we keep her anyway?

We live in a rural area, where dogs are generally free to roam around (not leashed / fenced). This particular dog is seven, and has lived in our little area her whole life. She is a good dog, and we know her well since she basically lives in our yard. She is trained (knows commands, doesn't steal food, is wonderful with children). She's super chill around us and all the neighbors, doesn't chase cats, is non-aggressive with other dogs.

However, she has also been trained as a guard dog. She is a big, imposing Beauceron who barks at strangers and scares delivery people. She has never bitten or even gotten close, as far as I can tell, but I am always a bit nervous that all big dogs can be dangerous even when well trained.

We also never wanted a dog, and are more than a bit annoyed that the neighbor made plans to move that don't include his dog. I think if we don't take her she will either be tied up on his balcony in the apartment all day, or will go to a shelter. I don't believe the neighbor is willing to share in the financial cost once he is gone.

As far as I can tell, the pros and cons are:

Pros
- She's a good dog, we know her and like her, and it's not her fault her owner is not including her in his plans. It would be a kindness to let her finish the remaining years of her life in a place she is comfortable and with people she knows.
- She's a good guard dog. Nothing is ever stolen from open cars / garages / houses. We know right away if a stranger comes through. The foxes give our area a wide berth, which protects the cats as well.
- The kids love her, although my kids are too young to really take care of a dog.
- The actual day to day care is minimal. She doesn't need walks or to be let out since she is outside all day just wandering around. She basically just needs her food and water, and to come in the house in bad weather.

Cons
- Dog poop in our yard (we already have some, I guess that doesn't really change)
- She scares people with her size and when she barks. She's loose outside, no real way to control if she did charge at someone (although we have never seen this). We can attach her to a chain for short periods if we know someone with a dog phobia is coming, but if we aren't around there is not much we can do.
- Cost. She's getting older and I assume vet bills will start adding up. She also eats like a big active dog
- Vacations. We couldn't take her with us anywhere (I don't think she's ever been on a leash??) so would need someone to take care of her. In general the neighbors can do this, so would only be an issue if everyone is gone at the same time, or for longer trips.

What are we missing? Can you help us think through this? My heart says to keep her, she's a sweetheart and is clearly attached to me. She vibrates with pleasure when I give her pets and snuggles, almost like a cat purring. But I never wanted a dog! Especially not a big smelly one . .
posted by ohio to Pets & Animals (38 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
Forgot to add, in case it is relevant: she already accepts me as her master. She listens to me, follows me around, and will back off and stop barking if I give her a sign. I did this so I could handle her when we had guests come in when her owner was not around to control her.

The same is not true of my husband, as he tends to just ignore her. She just ignores him back, as far as I can tell.
posted by ohio at 2:25 AM on August 30, 2019 [1 favorite]


If you don't want a dog, this is a bad idea. You're not responsible for fixing your neighbor's irresponsibility by adding your own.
posted by humboldt32 at 2:47 AM on August 30, 2019 [30 favorites]


I'm speaking as a lover of animals and someone who hopes to be in a position to have a dog soon and who has always wanted a big dog because I grew up with them. I think it would be a mitzvah for you to take in this dog, and it sounds like a lot of your cons would be mitigated with some commitment on the part of your family and yourself.

Things like vet bills and cost of food, maybe building a run enclosure so she has a nice big space that's still not free roam when you want to keep her from running up to folks, sorting out a regular dog sitter for trips away from home, the added chores and responsibilities - that's all things that become default care for a family member/beloved pet once you choose to see a dog in that way. And it's all things that your spouse and kids could contribute to - kids can help with yard maintenance and other dog chores, working with her to get used to a leash and other commands, eventually their friends might do dog sitting, and husband can help with the other stuff. But it's about buying into the idea of this dog as a member of the family. You say repeatedly that you never wanted a dog, but do you want a dog - this dog - now?

But if you don't want this dog, don't tell your neighbor you'll take her. It's ultimately their responsibility. I also have seen quite a few families with dogs that they don't much care for and it breaks my dang heart. It might make you feel better to do some research on shelters and rescue orgs in your area and bring this info to your neighbor. Honestly it sounds like he might abandon her and you'll end up with her in your yard anyway so you might as well start that research now. Maybe in the course of your investigations you can figure out how you really feel about things, too. I'm sorry that you've been put in this position, it's very difficult!
posted by Mizu at 3:05 AM on August 30, 2019 [15 favorites]


It's super annoying and irresponsible of your neighbour to not factor his big dog into his plans.

How about a third option - you take her on for now, but also try to start looking for good shelters, or for people living in rural areas who really want a dog and could give her the kind of home she needs? You're right it would be awful for her to have spend the rest of her life tied up on a balcony. It's unfair for you to be in this position and you're well within your rights to say no, but it would be a kindness to this dog.

My heart says to keep her, she's a sweetheart and is clearly attached to me. She vibrates with pleasure when I give her pets and snuggles, almost like a cat purring.

Awww. I hope you'll come back to this thread with an update.
posted by unicorn chaser at 3:29 AM on August 30, 2019 [27 favorites]


Many people in cities own big dogs. They give them regular exercise in the form of walks. Typically dogs in cities are not tied up and left outside on balconies. When the dog is inside the apartment they sleep. If you don't want to own a dog, don't own a dog.
posted by edbles at 3:33 AM on August 30, 2019


I would see if you can contact a Beauceron rescue (even if not local to you, breed rescues will often do a transport). Don't keep the dog if you don't want a dog, and there are far worse things than sending it to live with a breed enthusiast who will try to find it a forever home with another breed enthusiast.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:51 AM on August 30, 2019 [11 favorites]


She sounds like a really good dog who loves you. You never wanted her but here she is, doing her best - being good with your kids, keeping the foxes out of your yard, guarding your house. And now she needs you. A friend of mine had a really good watchdog and I always thought that dog was boss. Actually he never wanted her either, at first. When my friend's husband was dying I remember the hospice nurse came to the house and said, admiringly, that's a good watch dog. She was a total source of strength in a dire time, and a companion too. None of us ever know what life will bring, but sometimes a life surprise turns out to be a gift. Your dog sounds like that to me. If it were me, I'd keep her.
posted by WotSwann at 3:52 AM on August 30, 2019 [58 favorites]


My heart is saying KEEP.THE.DOG
But I'm a sucker for a happy ending.

Your kids will grow- will they be able to look after her later?

What are the outcomes for her if you don't take her- they could be sad outcomes, and would you be OK with that?

Argh adulting sucks. But if you want to keep her, and can, keep her!
posted by freethefeet at 4:02 AM on August 30, 2019 [4 favorites]


Forgot to add, in case it is relevant: she already accepts me as her master. She listens to me, follows me around, and will back off and stop barking if I give her a sign. I did this so I could handle her when we had guests come in when her owner was not around to control her.

It sounds like you have been adopted by a pretty much perfect dog, who is calm, obedient, and trainable. I think most of your cons could be mitigated with training, and your lives will be better for having this dog in them.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:17 AM on August 30, 2019 [36 favorites]


I can't tell you what you should do, I can only tell you what I think I'd do in your shoes.

First, your neighbor sucks.

Second. You say your heart says to keep her. I say listen to that. Love, whether it be with people or pets, comes with work. From your description, it sounds like you love this dog and the dog loves you. It's going to be work, you won't be as free as you were pre-dog, but I think the trade off is worth it.

I have four cats, three of them are cats somebody else decided they didn't want. It's tons more work than I wanted, and more vet bills, but when all is done and said, I love them and wouldn't trade them for the world.

Being put in this position sucks, but it sounds like this is a wonderful dog that you already love. You'd regret it if you don't give her a home, I think. You'll probably have periods of time when you feel like having taken her in is a hassle, but I don't think you'll regret it.
posted by jzb at 4:47 AM on August 30, 2019 [7 favorites]


If I were you, I would keep her at least for now, if you think the cost is manageable. Along with the cost of food and vet care, think about the cost of paying someone to come to your house to feed her and make sure she's protected from weather when you go on vacation if the neighbors can't do it. If she gets an ailment or injury that would be expensive to treat, I don't think there would be any shame in simply having her put down. You don't necessarily have to commit to giving her the longest possible life, just making the life she has a decent one.

Having a large, loose frightening dog that could potentially hurt someone is a liability and an unkindness to visitors. That seems like the most significant con. But it's something you're already living with. Up until now, if she bit someone you could point the finger at her actual owner, but by allowing her onto your property I can imagine you might have been opening yourself up to liability as well. But she hasn't hurt anyone in 7 years, so you probably don't need to worry too much, except about annoying people.

If you start feeling like the expense is too much, you're tired of having a dog that frightens people, or taking care of her is too inconvenient, then you can contact a rescue. But if you take over as her owner in the short term, you can make sure she goes to a reputable rescue and doesn't end up chained on a balcony or passed off to someone who won't care for her properly.
posted by Redstart at 5:07 AM on August 30, 2019 [12 favorites]


I think you shouldn’t. It’s a shame, she sounds like a good dog and you like her, but owning a large dangerous animal that you don’t think you can take responsibility for if she frightens or hurts someone is a bad idea (“no real way to control”... “not much we can do”). Admittedly, you sound as if you’d be as good or better than her current owner, but still not safe owners for a big dog.

Let her go to the city with her current owner, help find a committed owner for her, but if you don’t really want her — enough to have a plan for controlling her behavior — don’t keep her.
posted by LizardBreath at 5:29 AM on August 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


Hey Bruce,
We love Flora and agree she would be happiest staying in this area. We hadn’t planned to own a dog at this point in time and the cost is not insignificant. Would you consider making a financial contribution of $1000 (or whatever) for us to start a doggy fund to cover her food and vet bills?
We would agree to keep her for at least x years (and if we need to re home her at some point, to find her a good place).
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:43 AM on August 30, 2019 [8 favorites]


No way. It's not fair to a dog to be kept by folks that don't really care for her. It's not fair to you to bear the potentially thousands of dollars of that vet care and food might cost you, and it is not fair to your neighbors and visitors to be subject to the potentially dangerous behavior of a loose dog.

You might search for rescue groups dedicated to Beaucerons or related breeds (Doberman Pinscher is probably the most popular close relative) and pass that information on to the current owner, but I don't think that adopting a dog that you don't want is a good idea for you or the dog.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:01 AM on August 30, 2019 [1 favorite]


Good food will be about $100-150 a month (my 60 lb dog is about $80-$100/month). Vet bills really depends, they need their shots and things like heartworm, flea, tick medication every year, can be about $500-$1000/year, I've heard country vets tend to be less expensive. I think building a dog run would be a wise idea so she can go in there when you're not around and you could consider a muzzle when she's outside (but this requires training her to not hate the muzzle).

Female dogs fwiw tend to be more protective of their people than property lines, at 7 years her temperament isn't going to change that much so it's unlikely she'll become more aggressive.

I have a dog I didn't intend to have an yes the responsibilities and costs can be a pain in the butt but they know who loves them and they give that love back, ours is a family member now, and my son is just crazy for him.
posted by lafemma at 7:15 AM on August 30, 2019 [1 favorite]


In a case like this, ask yourself, "Why the f*** would I do that?" Start from 'no way,' and see if the pros really benefit you enough to outweigh the many cons. It's truly lovely that you want to help their dog, but you're not the neighbors' only option. Will it make your life better?
posted by wryly at 7:36 AM on August 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


I never thought I’d be someone who said this: Don’t keep dog if you don’t want dog.

My mom got cat, then dad’s allergies got bad and I took cat. I didn’t want third cat, but I liked cat, so fine. Mom said it would not be permanent.

That cat peed on everything for four years. She fought with one of my cats for four years. She created so much chaos and in a very slight way contributed to the death of the one cat who got along with them both. It was heartbreaking.

I think she would have been fine as a solo cat.

I know there are a million stories of people changing their mind. But this is a dog who already has some habits that make you nervous. Will that change? Do you have any kind of bond after knowing dog so well?

To me, that’s the dealbreaker. I wish I was still a person who said OF COURSE! But after a bad experience, I’m more wary.
posted by crankyrogalsky at 7:43 AM on August 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


This seems really low-burden, I'm honestly not seeing the problem besides "we never wanted a dog." Well, now you have one. Congrats!
posted by DarlingBri at 7:49 AM on August 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


This seems really low-burden, I'm honestly not seeing the problem
Oh, sure, the downside can be tough to tease out. Let me assist:

She's loose outside, no real way to control if she did charge at someone

LAWSUIT! GOODBYE, MONEY!

We can attach her to a chain for short periods
What? No. Somebody notices, gets to bleeding from the heart, calls ASPCA/RSPCA/equivalent. Local govt. gets involved; they have to fence in the dog (GOODBYE, MONEY!); dog is smart, dog learns to jump the fence or dig under it; dog is loose outside; somebody thinks she "charged at" them.
LAWSUIT! GOODBYE, MONEY!

She's getting older and I assume vet bills will start adding up.

Assumption is correct. GOODBYE, MONEY!

She also eats like a big active dog
She sure does! And in order to stave off vet and give dog bestlife, they need to find low-carboyhdrate food for the dog, which is priceypricey. GOODBYE, MONEY!

***

If the dog shivering with glee at the mere sight of you does not cause you to ignore the downside and race joyfully toward a dogful future, chances are excellent you'll resent the dog for the pain-in-the-ass it can't help being, because it is a dog and a dog is, first and foremost, a giant pain in the ass. That would suck for you and the dog.

If the thought of letting the dog go to the city or a shelter causes your heart to break, though, walk in eyes open, prepared to happily shell out buttloads of money. The dog can learn to walk on a leash, and you can fence in a portion of your property for it. None of the problems are insurmountable, they're all just really expensive, so you should know going in and be okay with that, and okay with the fact that the neighbor is an irresponsible tool and not resent the dog for any of it.

Finally, and this should probably not figure in to the decision making process, but:
Wow! If that dog looks anything like the wikipedia picture? That's a gorgeous dog.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:41 AM on August 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


She sounds like a sweet dog. I think that breed needs a lot of exercise, so it would probably be very unhappy stuck in an apartment (especially if the irresponsible owner doesn't walk it...and if it hasn't been trained to walk on a leash around lots of people etc, that would also be a challenge). It's not your problem, but it would be kind of you to take the dog at least temporarily and try to find another home for it in the country...maybe on a farm, if someone needs a herding dog.
posted by pinochiette at 9:22 AM on August 30, 2019


I would take her on and see how you feel about it in a few months. If nothing else, if she does need to be rehomed it sounds like you'll be a lot more responsible about it than your neighbor.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:27 AM on August 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


I am also leaning toward try it, since you even bothered to type this question? I mean, maybe you just wanted a chorus of "no, you don't have to" but maybe you wanted to be convinced to give it a shot? I feel like you might get more attached and get more out of a dog relationship when it becomes YOUR dog (and your kids' dog)? The upsides sound pretty great - protection for your belongings and the cats, you and the kids like her, she is familiar and happy being outside and nearby. Your heart says keep her!

It's understandable to worry about a big dog that sounds like she means it when she barks! But, there is no indication that she has any aggressive tendencies. Plus, she listens to you. She sounds pretty great. Maybe request the current owner get her checked out at the vet before you take her on?

And if it doesn't work out, after a few months, a Doberman rescue is a great next plan. And you will have tried, which is all you can do.
posted by Glinn at 9:46 AM on August 30, 2019


Team "keep the dog!" over here.
Just because you never wanted a dog before doesn't mean you can't have one now.
Yes, it's crummy of your neighbor to not make a better plan. Yes, a dog is a big commitment. But it sounds like this dog, who you already know and like, is a good fit for your family and lifestyle. An even-tempered adult dog is the perfect choice for a "we've never had a dog before" family. Dogs take work, but it's the kind of work that becomes part of your daily routine, absorbed into family life.

It's reasonable for the neighbor to offer a rehoming/intake fee, as he would have to with a rescue group or shelter. Ask him to purchase a couple months' worth of food before he moves, and to contribute, say, the cost of two or three vet visits--$500 total, maybe? And get full vet records and any pertinent behavioral history from him.

If it would be irresponsible to take on the expense, then sure, consider fostering her while you get in touch with breed rescues (although really, her original owner should be the one doing that work). But if you can fit pet care into your budget, then this seems like a pretty gentle introduction to the world of dogs.

Extra unsolicited advice:
Let her sleep inside at night. Give her a bed in the laundry room or on the porch. It'll keep her out of trouble and help improve the bond with your family.
Your kids will get bigger and you can pay them a dime a poop to clean up the yard.
Don't chain her up -- it's not very nice and can be pretty dangerous. You can buy or build an enclosed outdoor dog run with a covered shelter for not too much money. Put her in there when you leave the property.
posted by adastra at 10:12 AM on August 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


I wrote a comment but on preview, adastra has it: Keep her, let her sleep inside at night, and contain her when guests are visiting unless you're 100% certain about her behavior. It sounds like you already love her.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:16 AM on August 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


Those big dogs can be a real pain. The perfect solution is to tire them out...daily. Imagine going from the life of wondering through nature to a cramped city life. If you can't seem to get the dog outside for long vigorous walks, get a dog treadmill. When you get home from work, or in the morning put that dog on it. Just introduce the dog to it, by giving a toy or a treat a few times while they walk on the lowest setting. Increase speed or elevation in time, and then bang.. your dog is calmer and way more manageable. Please don't get rid of the dog, who knows if they could enter a kill shelter or be abused by someone else. You may grow to really love that dog.
posted by Jim844 at 10:46 AM on August 30, 2019


There's so much kindness and compassion in your words.

If pragmatism overrides, there may be moments in years ahead, when something reminds you of her, and you wonder what happened to her, and wish that you had taken her after all, since she had nobody else in the world. There will be that twinge of sadness that hits you, maybe once or twice a year, that you could have done more, you wish you had done more. Ask me how I know.

If you feel the love already in your heart, take her, or you will always wonder.
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:47 AM on August 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


Consult the other neighbors. She's a free-roaming community dog already; her (unworthy) owner may have approached you thinking "growing family needs a good dog," but maybe she'd be best settled with an empty-nesting retiree.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:29 PM on August 30, 2019 [6 favorites]


We took in a big dog that had been basically an unsocialized yard dog with some basic (come, sit, etc) training. She was terrible on a leash when we got her, but she was also in terrible physical shape, so we managed to get her to stop pulling around the time she was healthy enough to be too strong to overpower. She had the best couple months of her life with us, that summer - lots of attention (which she loved), lots of off-leash walks in appropriate areas (we were lucky to have them,) and she got to be a house dog for a while.

But... she bit a puppy. And then she bit my wife while trying to bite another dog. And then she almost killed my cat. And we realized that because she had never been properly socialized, she had zero bite inhibition and solved all of her interpersonal problems with her (massive) jaws. She was older, not super healthy, and not purebred, and no rescue would take her with a history of aggression, period. We got in touch with her original owner, who couldn't take her (no space, no way to keep her separate from the houseful of cats) and we had to put her down.

It was a hard decision, but it was unequivocally the right one. My wife still grieves; I still have flashbacks to the circle of bruises on her upper inner thigh and the chilling realization that if Smudge hadn't pulled the bite when she tasted monkey instead of dog, she could have crippled or killed my wife. By accident.

I think you *can* take this dog, if you feel like you want to, but you need to be really, really aware that all the potential problems with a big dog that has strong guarding instincts carries with it. And I'd look up breed rescues first (especially if it's a purebred dog and not just a Dog With Orange Eyebrows that someone decided to pin a name to) so that you have a backup plan, since it's not clear that this owner is going to do any work at all around rehoming the dog.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:06 PM on August 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


Keep her and pick up a free dog run off Craigslist for her to sit in when you expect company. Put a nice dog house in the run and put it out back where she can't see the comings and goinga so she knows it's a place to relax.

Don't underestimate the value of a known guard dog in a rural area. She'll likely pay for herself by preventing theft and keeping other loose animals/ people dumping animals away from your property.

At 7 years old she doesn't have a lot of time left. That's an older middle aged lady you've got here, this is a 3-4 year commitment likely. When an outdoor dog gets sick there is a limit to the vet care you can do, even if you want to.
posted by fshgrl at 3:57 PM on August 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


I'd keep her. she only has a few years left and it would suck to go from being a free-roaming dog to being contained in a balcony.

Stuff to consider though:
- you say the neighbor doesnt wanna pay for anything, you think he'd spring for a general check up at the vet (make sure shots etc are up-to-date?)
- ground rules for how the kids interact with dog (dont leave them unattended!)
- i wouldn't necessarily bring her in for the night (unless your neighbor does), the breed has a double coat and can deal with the weather just fine. also, guarding is part of her makeup so she's good to go. or do you guys have a cool porch or something?
- at 7, dogs are considered senior citizens, so you dont have to tire her out much with activities etc. but for extra bonding, games, goodies and TLC are always a bonus
- I'd just generally read up on the dog's temperament etc (theres also pretty good youtube videos, I checked!) so you know what youre dealing with. contrary to the saying, you def. can teach an old dog new tricks! especially if you want her to go to an assigned place while your delivery guy or whoever comes for a visit. generally, working dogs are a bit more standoffish with strangers, but that's normal and a-ok - it doesnt automatically mean aggressive. I get that big dogs are big dogs (we own a 40 kg mutt), but peeps forget that dogs have evolved over a long time with people so they kinda do know what's up.
posted by speakeasy at 10:21 AM on August 31, 2019 [1 favorite]


It sounds to me like you want to keep the dog, even if you are upset that your neighbor is giving her up. I think all of your listed concerns can be addressed if the need arises.
posted by bananana at 2:30 PM on August 31, 2019


I'm also on team keep the dog. She's not an unknown quantity, she practically lives in your yard already. She sounds like a good dog.
posted by selfmedicating at 8:39 PM on August 31, 2019


Thanks for all of the thoughtful answers! We still aren’t totally decided, but you’ve given us things to think about. I marked as best answers those that brought up points we hadn’t fully appreciated. These are primarily that we can actively look for rescues or a more appropriate home if it isn’t working for us, and that she’s old enough that the commitment would be fairly time limited. I also learned what a dog run is!

I agree with those who said that I’ll regret not helping her. She’s a sweetheart and has been good to our family. She’s doing her best, guarding the house and playing with the kids. I can’t just say no, even if it’s not fair to put us in this position.
posted by ohio at 11:55 PM on August 31, 2019 [8 favorites]


Her owner is a complete asshat. However, that is not your fault. Don't keep a dog that you don't want, but for that sweet dog's sake, if you don't keep her, please take her and find her a safe, responsible rescue organization who will get her a good home. She deserves that, and you will feel badly about abandoning her for a long time afterwards, if you don't. Poor, sweet thing, if I didn't already have two dogs I'd take her myself in a heartbeat.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 9:25 PM on September 1, 2019


If you decide to keep the dog and you are worried about vet bills, I would recommend Trupanion pet insurance. Unlike some plans that have max payouts which mean the insurance is virtually useless, Trupanion pays a 90% of everything after the deductible with no ceiling. Obviously it is priced so that, on average, they make money but you are exchanging a reasonable monthly payment to avoid the difficult choices that come with the prospect of a sudden, very large vet bill.

It is set up to encourage you sign up your dog early and keep the coverage in place. First, it is a level fee that doesn't increase as the dog gets older. Second, it doesn't cover pre-existing conditions. To start the policy, you need to get a check up and anything that is found on the initial check up will never be covered.

So, it is not right for every pet owner but for us, as our dog has aged, it has meant that we can do all reasonable treatments without fretting about the cost, including things like a CT Scan under sedation for liver problems and monthly pain meds for arthritis.
posted by metahawk at 12:43 PM on September 2, 2019


I am in Maine and would cheerfully adopt a dog who is well-behaved and a good guard. Sounds like she earns her keep.
posted by theora55 at 4:58 PM on September 2, 2019 [1 favorite]


Update in case anyone comes back here: we kept her, at least for now. We’re doing a lot of training and it turns out she’s really smart! She already know like 5 new commands.

Thanks for the advice!
posted by ohio at 6:25 AM on March 15 [8 favorites]


Awesome!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:08 AM on March 15


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