Can the funny-mean dynamic be healthy?
July 29, 2019 1:01 PM Subscribe
When I hang out with an older group of cishet people, or am in certain parts of the US, I see a lot of that memorabilia like “I traded my wife for a fishing rod” or “I love (it when) my husband (let’s me shop)” or “My wife and I were happy for 20 years. Then we met.”
Is this normal because couples actually find this funny and they can still have a healthy relationship with this rhetoric? Or do married couples secretly hate each other?
I’m just curious because my parents and my older siblings (all married, cis, straight, conservative) all fall into this camp of make fun of your spouse and mention to other people how much they dislike their spouse but then say that it’s all in jest and of course they love each other. Recently, a couple in their 70s who are friends with my parents, commented that my parents are really mean to each other, which they responded “Oh everyone is like this once you’ve been married for 35 years.” It was then that I realized, hmm. Maybe this isn’t the norm?
I’m probably too sensitive, I don’t think I could keep up with the constant ribbing. I get sarcasm and poking fun at each other because occasionally that can be fun. But all the time?
However, from being influenced by family, I sometimes find myself thinking that maybe this is the key to having humor in a relationship. They’re all married and have been for 10-30 years (can’t really speak on how happy they are in their marriages...but they haven’t divorced.)
I guess my questions are this:
1) is it possible to have a healthy, loving relationship with the funny-mean humor of putting each other down, even in front of others? Does this strengthen your bond somehow?
2) or would this be described as contempt?
3) why are those shirts/posters/mugs/sayings etc about hating your husband or wife popular? Is it mostly popular with an older crowd or is this something that’s still popular with younger couples too? (it hasn’t in my case, especially with queer couples, but I also am not friends with everyone in my generation)
If you or someone you know has this dynamic and it works out truly wonderfully, please share your stories! The opposite can be shared as well.
I’m just curious because my parents and my older siblings (all married, cis, straight, conservative) all fall into this camp of make fun of your spouse and mention to other people how much they dislike their spouse but then say that it’s all in jest and of course they love each other. Recently, a couple in their 70s who are friends with my parents, commented that my parents are really mean to each other, which they responded “Oh everyone is like this once you’ve been married for 35 years.” It was then that I realized, hmm. Maybe this isn’t the norm?
I’m probably too sensitive, I don’t think I could keep up with the constant ribbing. I get sarcasm and poking fun at each other because occasionally that can be fun. But all the time?
However, from being influenced by family, I sometimes find myself thinking that maybe this is the key to having humor in a relationship. They’re all married and have been for 10-30 years (can’t really speak on how happy they are in their marriages...but they haven’t divorced.)
I guess my questions are this:
1) is it possible to have a healthy, loving relationship with the funny-mean humor of putting each other down, even in front of others? Does this strengthen your bond somehow?
2) or would this be described as contempt?
3) why are those shirts/posters/mugs/sayings etc about hating your husband or wife popular? Is it mostly popular with an older crowd or is this something that’s still popular with younger couples too? (it hasn’t in my case, especially with queer couples, but I also am not friends with everyone in my generation)
If you or someone you know has this dynamic and it works out truly wonderfully, please share your stories! The opposite can be shared as well.
And this is also a thing with younger couples, since the version of "I love (it when) my husband (lets me shop)" that I have seen is "I love (it when) my girlfriend (lets me play video games.)"
posted by zeusianfog at 1:08 PM on July 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by zeusianfog at 1:08 PM on July 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think this can be a socioeconomic or cultural habit, tied to how people communicate about things they earnestly love and how sincerity is experienced.
In some cultures/families, being open about how meaningful someone or something is to you is safe, and in that context I don't think affection is shown by joking around about the ol' ball and chain. But in some cultures/families, it's almost like the more you really care about or rely on something, the more you have to denigrate it...a bit like warding off the evil eye.
So I would be very hesitant to make a judgement about the health of anyone's relationship without a lot of other context.
As a data point of one, my husband and I generally don't joke about this kind of thing and I feel about it the way you do...except I do sometimes drop this kind of comment around my parents/sibling (habit, because growing up anything I really valued had the potential to become ammunition), and my spouse does the same with one relative of his.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:09 PM on July 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
In some cultures/families, being open about how meaningful someone or something is to you is safe, and in that context I don't think affection is shown by joking around about the ol' ball and chain. But in some cultures/families, it's almost like the more you really care about or rely on something, the more you have to denigrate it...a bit like warding off the evil eye.
So I would be very hesitant to make a judgement about the health of anyone's relationship without a lot of other context.
As a data point of one, my husband and I generally don't joke about this kind of thing and I feel about it the way you do...except I do sometimes drop this kind of comment around my parents/sibling (habit, because growing up anything I really valued had the potential to become ammunition), and my spouse does the same with one relative of his.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:09 PM on July 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
As a queer person that entire genre of "comedy" is utterly toxic and alienating.
Believe me, it's *(&(*&( alienating to us heterosexuals just trying to get by, too.
I think different relationships afford different levels of teasing, but this sort of systematized nastiness? Nope. It's just misogyny, and it's heartbreaking to see in older married couples.
posted by praemunire at 1:10 PM on July 29, 2019 [18 favorites]
Believe me, it's *(&(*&( alienating to us heterosexuals just trying to get by, too.
I think different relationships afford different levels of teasing, but this sort of systematized nastiness? Nope. It's just misogyny, and it's heartbreaking to see in older married couples.
posted by praemunire at 1:10 PM on July 29, 2019 [18 favorites]
There's good-natured ribbing about foibles; I think that just comes from being comfortable with yourselves and each other. And there is absolutely a line between what's said in jest alone and in public.
But then there's the stuff you mention and no, I don't really get it either, unless it's a generational thing that took it's cues from sitcoms and pop-culture of the time: henpecked husband/wife with the rolling-pin sort of tropes. We've passed the 25-year mark and are not like this, nor are any of the couples we know in our circle of friends or larger cohort. But then neither are our parents or grandparents (as far as we can recall). So maybe it's just a weird sort of family-cultural thing.
posted by jquinby at 1:11 PM on July 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
But then there's the stuff you mention and no, I don't really get it either, unless it's a generational thing that took it's cues from sitcoms and pop-culture of the time: henpecked husband/wife with the rolling-pin sort of tropes. We've passed the 25-year mark and are not like this, nor are any of the couples we know in our circle of friends or larger cohort. But then neither are our parents or grandparents (as far as we can recall). So maybe it's just a weird sort of family-cultural thing.
posted by jquinby at 1:11 PM on July 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
I have a friend who had been in a relationship with a dude who seemed to have this kind of opinion about her - he seemed to actively choose to position her in the "nagging wife spoiling his fun" role, and they bickered a whole lot more than I would have tolerated in a relationship. Talking to her, she said she liked that kind of conflict - but about two months after that conversation, he dumped her kind of out of the blue, saying he "wanted to travel." (As far as I know, he never did, but he did take up with the much-younger female lead in a play he was in. His relationship with my friend had absolutely been open, but... *shrug*)
When my friend did find herself in a serious relationship, later, it was with a woman who absolutely does not pull this shit and wouldn't ever think to. So I suspect as much as she might like a little conflict as spice in a relationship, this kind of (very gendered) bullshit did not actually serve the purpose.
(My parents are in their 70s, as far as I know happily married, and while they have their frictions, I would be shocked to see something with this kind of sentiment in it in their house, or in most of their friends' houses.)
posted by restless_nomad at 1:13 PM on July 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
When my friend did find herself in a serious relationship, later, it was with a woman who absolutely does not pull this shit and wouldn't ever think to. So I suspect as much as she might like a little conflict as spice in a relationship, this kind of (very gendered) bullshit did not actually serve the purpose.
(My parents are in their 70s, as far as I know happily married, and while they have their frictions, I would be shocked to see something with this kind of sentiment in it in their house, or in most of their friends' houses.)
posted by restless_nomad at 1:13 PM on July 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
This is where I profess to be surprised that The Lockhorns is still being produced.
I've always found such "humor" dreary and depressing. But clearly there must be some kind of market for it, although I cannot guess whose life is enriched by a regular dose of sneering antipathy and long-outdated gender stereotypes plopped down in the middle of the comics page.
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:14 PM on July 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
I've always found such "humor" dreary and depressing. But clearly there must be some kind of market for it, although I cannot guess whose life is enriched by a regular dose of sneering antipathy and long-outdated gender stereotypes plopped down in the middle of the comics page.
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:14 PM on July 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
3) why are those shirts/posters/mugs/sayings etc about hating your husband or wife popular? Is it mostly popular with an older crowd or is this something that’s still popular with younger couples too?
It's popular with misogynists of all ages and gender expressions.
Hello, het-married of 20 years here. My parents just celebrated their 50th anniversary. My husband's parents have been married even longer. None of us engage in this kind of thing with our spouses, so it is definitely not a given for long term heterosexual relationships.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:16 PM on July 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
It's popular with misogynists of all ages and gender expressions.
Hello, het-married of 20 years here. My parents just celebrated their 50th anniversary. My husband's parents have been married even longer. None of us engage in this kind of thing with our spouses, so it is definitely not a given for long term heterosexual relationships.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:16 PM on July 29, 2019 [9 favorites]
From morning to night at my office, everyone complains about their spouses, and kids too. (It's a special torture for me as a lonely single person.) "Sorry I didn't bring much to the potluck, but my wife is a vegetarian, which makes me a vegetarian." "I took the van instead of [one of three other vehicles they have], because my husband always insists on checking the oil before it's really necessary." One of my favorites was one time when a guy threw a big piece of beautiful, homemade lasagna, recyclable plastic container and all, into the trash. He saw me watching, and said: "I don't know how many times I've told my wife that I don't want leftovers two days in a row!" They refer to their spouses as an object sometimes too: "gotta go pick up the wife." "The husband was fixing the deck over the weekend, I hate it when he leaves his sweatshirt on the floor." This happens all day, every day, without fail.
I dunno. I think people are just bored doing the same old routine, decade after decade, but marriage vows are taken seriously in this culture, or something. I'll be reading this thread with interest.
posted by Melismata at 1:18 PM on July 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
I dunno. I think people are just bored doing the same old routine, decade after decade, but marriage vows are taken seriously in this culture, or something. I'll be reading this thread with interest.
posted by Melismata at 1:18 PM on July 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
In my experience, this sort of "humor" is popular with people that:
a) don't know how to be alone and end up in relationships/marriages without thinking it through
b) dislike being alone and think that any relationship is preferable to being single
posted by Automocar at 1:20 PM on July 29, 2019 [24 favorites]
a) don't know how to be alone and end up in relationships/marriages without thinking it through
b) dislike being alone and think that any relationship is preferable to being single
posted by Automocar at 1:20 PM on July 29, 2019 [24 favorites]
Oh, and:
c) are in relationships/marriages for economic reasons that they otherwise would get out of
posted by Automocar at 1:22 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
c) are in relationships/marriages for economic reasons that they otherwise would get out of
posted by Automocar at 1:22 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I see this shit all the time on enthusiast subreddits like /r/chefknives and /r/mechanicalkeyboards. It's pretty exhausting.
I don't profess to know what these couples' lives are like, but I suspect the women would get a unanimous chorus of DTMFA responses were they to post any given fight they've had to AskMe.
I mean, every relationship involves friction, but there's a big difference between friction and this kind of "kidding but not really" mutual resentment.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:23 PM on July 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I don't profess to know what these couples' lives are like, but I suspect the women would get a unanimous chorus of DTMFA responses were they to post any given fight they've had to AskMe.
I mean, every relationship involves friction, but there's a big difference between friction and this kind of "kidding but not really" mutual resentment.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:23 PM on July 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
No, it is not okay. It's so anathema to my concept of a healthy, respectful relationship that I hope to whatever power above that it just stops and all those stupid shirts combust. There's a few reasons why it's not okay, but the main one I want to highlight that separates it COMPLETELY from teasing is that it shows public contempt for your partner. Ugh. I feel gross just thinking about those stupid shirts or signs or attitude.
I am super into the Gottman method because it's given me a great framework for meaningful relationships, and I think I'm a pretty engaged and improving partner now. They have four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse: Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling.
Contempt and criticism are the ones being expressed by that stuff.
So in a healthy relationship you thank your partner and are appreciative of them. You focus on the POSITIVE qualities and that minimizes the negative. Everyone has negative qualities. Imagine if you were focused on the positive qualities and your partner did something that annoyed you. In my mind, I'd be more likely to think "That was a mistake. I know they love me, I'll let them know that bothered me." instead of "What the fuck was that? Are you serious? She ALWAYS does (whatever stupid thing irks someone( on purpose because she's (insert negative quality I'm focused on)."
It's gross. It legitimately makes me very upset. Thank you for asking this question though, I think it's important to talk about many ways our culture is fucked up even at a basic people bonding level.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:32 PM on July 29, 2019 [22 favorites]
I am super into the Gottman method because it's given me a great framework for meaningful relationships, and I think I'm a pretty engaged and improving partner now. They have four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse: Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling.
Contempt and criticism are the ones being expressed by that stuff.
So in a healthy relationship you thank your partner and are appreciative of them. You focus on the POSITIVE qualities and that minimizes the negative. Everyone has negative qualities. Imagine if you were focused on the positive qualities and your partner did something that annoyed you. In my mind, I'd be more likely to think "That was a mistake. I know they love me, I'll let them know that bothered me." instead of "What the fuck was that? Are you serious? She ALWAYS does (whatever stupid thing irks someone( on purpose because she's (insert negative quality I'm focused on)."
It's gross. It legitimately makes me very upset. Thank you for asking this question though, I think it's important to talk about many ways our culture is fucked up even at a basic people bonding level.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:32 PM on July 29, 2019 [22 favorites]
I think there are two separate things. Sexist humor, like some of the examples you gave, and partners who express their affection through mutual teasing. I have definitely seen the latter work out - I think some people just like to express love this way, and feel happy and at ease when they can engage in mutual ribbing. I think making sexist jokes about your partner, like the above "I love (it when) my husband (lets me shop)" or "I love (it when) my girlfriend (lets me play video games.)" is more of an issue because it speaks to deeper misogyny/internalized misogyny.
posted by capricorn at 1:33 PM on July 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 1:33 PM on July 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
Is this normal because couples actually find this funny and they can still have a healthy relationship with this rhetoric? Or do married couples secretly hate each other?
Neither. These people are playing off a series of outdated stereotypes that are about as funny and relevant today as Rodney "Please Take My Wife" Dangerfield. And also you should know that this is not normal. Literally not a soul in my family speaks this way about their spouse. Of all of my friends, the partner of just one spoke about his wife this way -- and she is no longer his wife, because that guy is an asshole.
Ball and chain quips, jokes about oral sex ending with marriage, jokes about sex ending with marriage... they are demeaning. Humiliating someone you love is not ever funny.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:37 PM on July 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
Neither. These people are playing off a series of outdated stereotypes that are about as funny and relevant today as Rodney "Please Take My Wife" Dangerfield. And also you should know that this is not normal. Literally not a soul in my family speaks this way about their spouse. Of all of my friends, the partner of just one spoke about his wife this way -- and she is no longer his wife, because that guy is an asshole.
Ball and chain quips, jokes about oral sex ending with marriage, jokes about sex ending with marriage... they are demeaning. Humiliating someone you love is not ever funny.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:37 PM on July 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
I agree with the people who have said it's not normal and demonstrates contempt and misogyny.
I think it's also sometimes people trying to convince themselves that their lives are normal, their relationships are healthy, and "this is as good as it's ever going to get." IME straight conservative culture in the US is all about being unhappy, contemptuous, authoritarian, and convinced you have no better options. See also: all men are pigs, all women are sluts, all politicians are corrupt, etc.
posted by bagel at 1:43 PM on July 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
I think it's also sometimes people trying to convince themselves that their lives are normal, their relationships are healthy, and "this is as good as it's ever going to get." IME straight conservative culture in the US is all about being unhappy, contemptuous, authoritarian, and convinced you have no better options. See also: all men are pigs, all women are sluts, all politicians are corrupt, etc.
posted by bagel at 1:43 PM on July 29, 2019 [27 favorites]
The most successful, long-term couples I know, both straight and gay, do not do this. Since I was a teen, I've had a fascination with how/why couples stay together for 30, 40, 50+ years and I've had the chance to speak with them in a frank way about it and the universal bits that most if not all of the people I've chatted with agree on is sharing a deep and permanent mutual respect. The feelings of being "in love" can come and go in cycles and there will be tremendous challenges in a relationship, but if you never allow your respect for your partner to wane, you make it through tough times and what you build together ends up being strong, beautiful, and mutually fulfilling.
The phenomenon of disrespecting your partner under the guise of fun teasing is not benign. It erodes bonds over time and creates a habit where the first thing that you go to with your partner is criticism and small bits of cruelty. At the root of it is disrespect. It's also incredibly toxic for children being raised in an environment like this. There's no sanctuary and no safe place when the people closest to you are chipping away at you while claiming it's normal, fun, and hilarious. For me, this dynamic is the most fundamental deal-breaker in romantic relationships and friendships.
posted by quince at 1:54 PM on July 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
The phenomenon of disrespecting your partner under the guise of fun teasing is not benign. It erodes bonds over time and creates a habit where the first thing that you go to with your partner is criticism and small bits of cruelty. At the root of it is disrespect. It's also incredibly toxic for children being raised in an environment like this. There's no sanctuary and no safe place when the people closest to you are chipping away at you while claiming it's normal, fun, and hilarious. For me, this dynamic is the most fundamental deal-breaker in romantic relationships and friendships.
posted by quince at 1:54 PM on July 29, 2019 [16 favorites]
I have two anecdotes.
The first happened within the last year. My wife was travelling for business. I said something about it to a coworker and he said something like "Oh man! Bet you're looking forward to that!" When I said "No. I like having my wife around" he was utterly stumped. Nothing in his life has prepared him for that answer. He later confided that my answer had changed his entire outlook on relationships.
The second happened closer to ten years ago. A friend of mine who happens to be gay was out to lunch with co-workers. He wasn't out at work, and was trying to fit in. The topic of women came up, because his office was some kind of sitcom stereotype, and someone asked him a question about his recent relationships. He told me that he had the following thought: "What would a straight man say? Remember: The more you hate women, the more straight you are." I remember what his answer was, but I think that split-second thought is as problematic as this anecdote needs to be.
The problem, I think, is that people seem to expect relationships to be terrible. They hear that relationships are hard work, and they see things like... well, any sitcom relationship ever, and they think "Oh! I should be in a relationship that makes me low-key hate my life. That's normal!" And because everyone they know is getting the same message, terrible relationships become painfully quotidian. So when someone has a shirt that blames the ol' ball-and-chain for spending all their money and keeping them from fishing (or whatever), many people think "Yes, that is a normal level of animosity to have in a relationship."
I mean, the root of this is actually many layered. I'm just picking this particular bone with sitcom marriages.
posted by Zudz at 1:55 PM on July 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
The first happened within the last year. My wife was travelling for business. I said something about it to a coworker and he said something like "Oh man! Bet you're looking forward to that!" When I said "No. I like having my wife around" he was utterly stumped. Nothing in his life has prepared him for that answer. He later confided that my answer had changed his entire outlook on relationships.
The second happened closer to ten years ago. A friend of mine who happens to be gay was out to lunch with co-workers. He wasn't out at work, and was trying to fit in. The topic of women came up, because his office was some kind of sitcom stereotype, and someone asked him a question about his recent relationships. He told me that he had the following thought: "What would a straight man say? Remember: The more you hate women, the more straight you are." I remember what his answer was, but I think that split-second thought is as problematic as this anecdote needs to be.
The problem, I think, is that people seem to expect relationships to be terrible. They hear that relationships are hard work, and they see things like... well, any sitcom relationship ever, and they think "Oh! I should be in a relationship that makes me low-key hate my life. That's normal!" And because everyone they know is getting the same message, terrible relationships become painfully quotidian. So when someone has a shirt that blames the ol' ball-and-chain for spending all their money and keeping them from fishing (or whatever), many people think "Yes, that is a normal level of animosity to have in a relationship."
I mean, the root of this is actually many layered. I'm just picking this particular bone with sitcom marriages.
posted by Zudz at 1:55 PM on July 29, 2019 [34 favorites]
Hmmm, in the older generations I love (it when) my husband (lets me shop)" or "I love (it when) my wife (lets me fish.)" is also a low-brow joking way of preemptively acknowledging you have a time-consuming hobby that may also be expensive and separate you from your spouse/partner for long'ish periods of time....and that the spouse/partner is ok with that. And these partners may even have matching T-shirts (shopping/fishing). It may be crude but I don't think misogyny/internalized misogyny/disrespect is always the proper viewpoint.
OTOH, "take my wife, please" is always disrespectful as are "I'm with stupid" t-shirts, and "in this house, there are two rules. Rule 1: I'm always right, Rule 2: see rule 1."
posted by beaning at 1:58 PM on July 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
OTOH, "take my wife, please" is always disrespectful as are "I'm with stupid" t-shirts, and "in this house, there are two rules. Rule 1: I'm always right, Rule 2: see rule 1."
posted by beaning at 1:58 PM on July 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
As a counterpoint, I have seen couples where they do this type of ribbing but it’s not taken too seriously and they seem (who can truly know but them) happy, have been together for decades. Generally what seems to make it work is that they don’t take life too seriously, tease themselves and each other, and do in fact conform to gender stereotypes in their behavior which makes the jokes relevant.
On preview, agreed with beaning. It can be a form of mild self-deprecation. I love fishing, maybe sometimes to the neglect of my other responsibilities, but my wife actually wants me to be happy and “lets me.” That kind of thing.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:58 PM on July 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
On preview, agreed with beaning. It can be a form of mild self-deprecation. I love fishing, maybe sometimes to the neglect of my other responsibilities, but my wife actually wants me to be happy and “lets me.” That kind of thing.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:58 PM on July 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Some people -- a lot of people -- grow up without seeing what emotionally supportive relationships look like.
Any communication and connection can feel affirming sometimes, but insult comedy directed at the people you love is a sad way to do that.
They don't know how else to relate to each other. It's something we have to teach each other.
posted by amtho at 1:59 PM on July 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Any communication and connection can feel affirming sometimes, but insult comedy directed at the people you love is a sad way to do that.
They don't know how else to relate to each other. It's something we have to teach each other.
posted by amtho at 1:59 PM on July 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
Some people may do this because that's what they've seen, at home, on tv, and they think it's how people relate. The kindest explanation is that it's passive-aggressive, but I don't think it's very passive. I think most put-down 'humor' is a form of dominance seeking, and I generally think less of people who employ it.
posted by theora55 at 2:02 PM on July 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 2:02 PM on July 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
It sure sells stuff. He buys a bass boat and she buys an embroidery machine because the other person let them/didn't want to let them (and it's therefore not each buyer's fault that the budget was blown? I have been really puzzled overhearing some of these conversations).
Also, personally, at the beginning of my relationship, I did way too much of this because of some cultural programming and a whole lot of `the failure mode of clever is asshole'. And I am so, so glad that my partner didn't double down and do it back to me, because it is far better not to be that person any more.
posted by clew at 2:18 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also, personally, at the beginning of my relationship, I did way too much of this because of some cultural programming and a whole lot of `the failure mode of clever is asshole'. And I am so, so glad that my partner didn't double down and do it back to me, because it is far better not to be that person any more.
posted by clew at 2:18 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm from a family that does the thing warriorqueen described. The more something means to you, the more you're expected to outwardly demonstrate how little it matters.
However, my grandparents were married for 61 years, until my grandpa died in April. I never once heard either one of them say anything denigrating about the other.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 2:22 PM on July 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
However, my grandparents were married for 61 years, until my grandpa died in April. I never once heard either one of them say anything denigrating about the other.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 2:22 PM on July 29, 2019 [4 favorites]
I grew up with parents who frequently put each other down like this and found it confusing and sad as a kid. Now friends my age are starting to do this about their spouses. I notice the topics of these “jokes” are often things the person is uncomfortable about in their relationship and in a way the jokes are like a shield and a sword (my friend putting down her boyfriend’s diet preferences while talking about how she cooks for him every night).
One of my big life promises to myself is I never have to be part of a relationship like this.
posted by sallybrown at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
One of my big life promises to myself is I never have to be part of a relationship like this.
posted by sallybrown at 2:43 PM on July 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
no. i fucking hate this dynamic and will not watch comedians who rely on this type of humor. it's one thing to tease each other a bit, but saying things like "the bitch let me out tonight!" is just not funny. if my partner referred to me so negatively, i would not like it at all.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 2:44 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by misanthropicsarah at 2:44 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
1) is it possible to have a healthy, loving relationship with the funny-mean humor of putting each other down, even in front of others? Does this strengthen your bond somehow?
Yes, absolutely. My SO and I both have a sarcastic sense of humour that often involves saying the opposite of what we mean, or things so ridiculous that they are obviously false. We joke with our very religiously observant friend that he clearly doesn't like religion; we tell my niece that we're only feeding her to fatten her up for the harvest. Our pet name for each other is an insult (one which now only feels sweet). I once joked I would divorce him to marry some bread (oh my g-d, it was such good bread), only bread-marriage isn't legal (and I ate the bread); it was our anniversary and a wonderful evening.
It's all about how it's done and about what. We never insult each other in a way that hits something that actually hurts or that hits some fault we're sensitive about. I'll joke that I married my (brilliant, intellectual, articulate) SO for his beauty, because he has no brains; he jokes that I have him utterly dominated (we both feel very equal, and he's clearly not dominated). Both of us know these are untrue, and so they are funny, not hurtful. It's not funny if it hurts.
But we also do have a sense of our own imperfections - and so long as they are ones we don't care about, we'll continue to rib each other about them, and it is bonding.
posted by jb at 3:12 PM on July 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
Yes, absolutely. My SO and I both have a sarcastic sense of humour that often involves saying the opposite of what we mean, or things so ridiculous that they are obviously false. We joke with our very religiously observant friend that he clearly doesn't like religion; we tell my niece that we're only feeding her to fatten her up for the harvest. Our pet name for each other is an insult (one which now only feels sweet). I once joked I would divorce him to marry some bread (oh my g-d, it was such good bread), only bread-marriage isn't legal (and I ate the bread); it was our anniversary and a wonderful evening.
It's all about how it's done and about what. We never insult each other in a way that hits something that actually hurts or that hits some fault we're sensitive about. I'll joke that I married my (brilliant, intellectual, articulate) SO for his beauty, because he has no brains; he jokes that I have him utterly dominated (we both feel very equal, and he's clearly not dominated). Both of us know these are untrue, and so they are funny, not hurtful. It's not funny if it hurts.
But we also do have a sense of our own imperfections - and so long as they are ones we don't care about, we'll continue to rib each other about them, and it is bonding.
posted by jb at 3:12 PM on July 29, 2019 [14 favorites]
I don’t like this tendency at all, but I’ve seen a lot of it as it is practiced amongst my parents’ friends. I agree that it tends to be gender-essentializing bs, but I’m not satisfied with the “jerks are jerks” explanation alone.
I think part of the function of these jokes is to acknowledge and normalize negative thoughts about one’s partner and thereby defuse them. If you can joke about feeling like your spouse “won’t let you” spend money then you’re not so likely to feel isolated by your money fights: they’re not a secret shame. You don’t have to worry that it’s a relationship-killing problem; the laughter you receive when you make the joke is your friend’s way of reassuring you that your feelings and experience are normal
As others have mentioned, this would seem to be an especially important function in relationships in which the partners wouldn’t imagine leaving, even if they were very unhappy.
But if you have previously believed that loving couples are like the ones you see in romance novels and holiday movies, it could be quite a relief to have a balancing story in which hating your spouse sometimes doesn’t mean that you (or they) are defective and have to break up. It’s especially pernicious when genuinely toxic relationship unhappiness is normalized, but I think more commonly it’s just a way of letting people relax about conflicts (since most normal relationship conflicts actually can’t be resolved, anyway).
It also is a kind of acceptable excuse to get out of peer pressure situations: “I would totally have another beer [and am therefore not standing in judgement about the amount *you* are drinking] but the wife would get mad.” It’s okay to blame social noncompliance on one’s partner, because people who value this rhetoric do seem to accept that (mostly heteronormative monogamous) relationships come before other things. So you can disingenuously behave as if you wish you weren’t constrained by your partner, regardless of whether you *actually* are, and thus save face when turning down a friend. It’s very guess culture that way.
It’s also fine to portray your partner as the ruiner of fun because spouses who do this seem rarely to share friends in a substantial way: I see it a lot more in groups that segregate socially by gender, for example. The same people sometimes joke/talk trash about their friends to their partner, too.
Criticizing and complaining expresses some solidarity with the person to whom the complainer is speaking, solidified and proven by their willingness to exclude/vilify the other most important person in their life. I suppose that also expresses faith in the discretion and good sense of the person you’re speaking to: you’re letting them know that *you know* that they’re chill enough not to take such petty jokes seriously, and further, that they can be trusted to laugh rather than narc.
None of this seems great to me—there are healthier modes of talking about relationship dissatisfaction, peer bonding, and boundary setting—but amongst communities that share the same norms around this kind of thing, it’s seen as largely harmless (whether or not that’s correct) because of their “humour” and the bonding it solidifies, and because whined-about relationships are implicitly understood to more than strong enough to stand it. You’d only really worry about your friend’s relationship if they couldn’t joke about it; you’d only worry about your spouse’s behaviour if your friends didn’t laugh when you joked about it. Everyone’s laughing? Okay, we’re all on the same page about how relationships work (which is not always fun, but apparently we all think it’s worth it...?).
posted by Edna Million at 3:22 PM on July 29, 2019 [29 favorites]
I think part of the function of these jokes is to acknowledge and normalize negative thoughts about one’s partner and thereby defuse them. If you can joke about feeling like your spouse “won’t let you” spend money then you’re not so likely to feel isolated by your money fights: they’re not a secret shame. You don’t have to worry that it’s a relationship-killing problem; the laughter you receive when you make the joke is your friend’s way of reassuring you that your feelings and experience are normal
As others have mentioned, this would seem to be an especially important function in relationships in which the partners wouldn’t imagine leaving, even if they were very unhappy.
But if you have previously believed that loving couples are like the ones you see in romance novels and holiday movies, it could be quite a relief to have a balancing story in which hating your spouse sometimes doesn’t mean that you (or they) are defective and have to break up. It’s especially pernicious when genuinely toxic relationship unhappiness is normalized, but I think more commonly it’s just a way of letting people relax about conflicts (since most normal relationship conflicts actually can’t be resolved, anyway).
It also is a kind of acceptable excuse to get out of peer pressure situations: “I would totally have another beer [and am therefore not standing in judgement about the amount *you* are drinking] but the wife would get mad.” It’s okay to blame social noncompliance on one’s partner, because people who value this rhetoric do seem to accept that (mostly heteronormative monogamous) relationships come before other things. So you can disingenuously behave as if you wish you weren’t constrained by your partner, regardless of whether you *actually* are, and thus save face when turning down a friend. It’s very guess culture that way.
It’s also fine to portray your partner as the ruiner of fun because spouses who do this seem rarely to share friends in a substantial way: I see it a lot more in groups that segregate socially by gender, for example. The same people sometimes joke/talk trash about their friends to their partner, too.
Criticizing and complaining expresses some solidarity with the person to whom the complainer is speaking, solidified and proven by their willingness to exclude/vilify the other most important person in their life. I suppose that also expresses faith in the discretion and good sense of the person you’re speaking to: you’re letting them know that *you know* that they’re chill enough not to take such petty jokes seriously, and further, that they can be trusted to laugh rather than narc.
None of this seems great to me—there are healthier modes of talking about relationship dissatisfaction, peer bonding, and boundary setting—but amongst communities that share the same norms around this kind of thing, it’s seen as largely harmless (whether or not that’s correct) because of their “humour” and the bonding it solidifies, and because whined-about relationships are implicitly understood to more than strong enough to stand it. You’d only really worry about your friend’s relationship if they couldn’t joke about it; you’d only worry about your spouse’s behaviour if your friends didn’t laugh when you joked about it. Everyone’s laughing? Okay, we’re all on the same page about how relationships work (which is not always fun, but apparently we all think it’s worth it...?).
posted by Edna Million at 3:22 PM on July 29, 2019 [29 favorites]
I wonder if it's a coping mechanism that's been born out of the rules and acceptable narratives within monogamy?
My partner and I within the past 8 moths moved from a monogamous to a poly relationship and one of the first things that had to go was any kind of sarcasm and gentle ribbing. Everything now is about building and maintaining trust and healthy boundaries so that we can remember that we matter to each other as we pursue our individual crushes for other folks too. Any kind of piss-taking in our relationship will absolutely destruct us under a poly relationship construction, we just can't do it and maintain the safety required.
Now every interaction we have is about maximizing our safety and love while also owning our own shit and not feeling entitled to each other in any way. Perhaps in monogamous relationships the way we feel entitled to the other creates the conditions where the sarcasm is a way to try to reclaim space to be an individual inside the relationship.
Hey if it works, that's great, but I've been really fucking glad to let all that shit go myself.
posted by nikaspark at 3:26 PM on July 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
My partner and I within the past 8 moths moved from a monogamous to a poly relationship and one of the first things that had to go was any kind of sarcasm and gentle ribbing. Everything now is about building and maintaining trust and healthy boundaries so that we can remember that we matter to each other as we pursue our individual crushes for other folks too. Any kind of piss-taking in our relationship will absolutely destruct us under a poly relationship construction, we just can't do it and maintain the safety required.
Now every interaction we have is about maximizing our safety and love while also owning our own shit and not feeling entitled to each other in any way. Perhaps in monogamous relationships the way we feel entitled to the other creates the conditions where the sarcasm is a way to try to reclaim space to be an individual inside the relationship.
Hey if it works, that's great, but I've been really fucking glad to let all that shit go myself.
posted by nikaspark at 3:26 PM on July 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
I have such mixed feelings about this stuff, but it's far more nuanced than a lot of takes here are representing.
I think that in most long term marriages - defined here as 25+, there are times when people are more or less happy with each other, or with the institution of marriage, or how it impacts their lives. This is particularly the case when people are under a certain income level. Higher income often acts, from what I've seen, as a sort of insulating factor - the ability to travel, to be separate, to have separate hobbies and rooms in a house, all of these are essentially functions of having financial flexibility. One of the top reasons married couples fight is over money - a sense of scarcity.
These jokes aren't about hating your spouse. They're about, broadly, unmet desires, often under the financial system we live under, which cannot be avoided. Sometimes those unmet desires manifest in some sexist or misogynist ways, because we live in a sexist/misogynist society. But these jokes are about scarcity, not about hate.
"I'd trade my wife for a fishing rod" is not "I hate my wife" - there are definitely other jokes that would be - but a "I wish I had the money to buy more fishing rods. I wish I had more time to spend on my hobby that makes me happy." "I love it when my husband lets me shop" is the cri de coeur of a woman without financial independence, who wants more out of her life -specifically, in material goods - than she has. "My wife and I were happy" - because children and youths are happy in a way that people married without enough resources could not ever be in their entire lives, no matter how strong the relationship is.
Edna Million is getting at a bit of this there - these things, shared, create solidarity. For men, it creates solidarity that they aren't, alone, a failure for being unable to provide for their family to the standard that they would wish, that still allows them all the hobby money they like or the bachelor life they enjoyed. For women, it creates solidarity that no one married a prince, that they all live together under this economic situation where money is doled out at the husband's whim and there's nothing they can do about it but laugh.
It is super gendered, but so is the patriarchy we live under, right?
posted by corb at 3:28 PM on July 29, 2019 [35 favorites]
I think that in most long term marriages - defined here as 25+, there are times when people are more or less happy with each other, or with the institution of marriage, or how it impacts their lives. This is particularly the case when people are under a certain income level. Higher income often acts, from what I've seen, as a sort of insulating factor - the ability to travel, to be separate, to have separate hobbies and rooms in a house, all of these are essentially functions of having financial flexibility. One of the top reasons married couples fight is over money - a sense of scarcity.
These jokes aren't about hating your spouse. They're about, broadly, unmet desires, often under the financial system we live under, which cannot be avoided. Sometimes those unmet desires manifest in some sexist or misogynist ways, because we live in a sexist/misogynist society. But these jokes are about scarcity, not about hate.
"I'd trade my wife for a fishing rod" is not "I hate my wife" - there are definitely other jokes that would be - but a "I wish I had the money to buy more fishing rods. I wish I had more time to spend on my hobby that makes me happy." "I love it when my husband lets me shop" is the cri de coeur of a woman without financial independence, who wants more out of her life -specifically, in material goods - than she has. "My wife and I were happy" - because children and youths are happy in a way that people married without enough resources could not ever be in their entire lives, no matter how strong the relationship is.
Edna Million is getting at a bit of this there - these things, shared, create solidarity. For men, it creates solidarity that they aren't, alone, a failure for being unable to provide for their family to the standard that they would wish, that still allows them all the hobby money they like or the bachelor life they enjoyed. For women, it creates solidarity that no one married a prince, that they all live together under this economic situation where money is doled out at the husband's whim and there's nothing they can do about it but laugh.
It is super gendered, but so is the patriarchy we live under, right?
posted by corb at 3:28 PM on July 29, 2019 [35 favorites]
I don't have enough experience to know how other people feel, but I can say I enjoyed my relationship so much more when my ex told me to cut out the mean jokes I was used to with my friends and family and replaced it with a very conscious, "wow, my boyfriend is awesome! i get to date him!" mindset. Flipside, when he started wanting out of the relationship is when the "nagging wife" jokes started slipping out.
For me, the jokes were kind of self-deprecation but expanded to him? Like I saw us as a unit, so in my mind, he was fair game to talk about like I talked about myself. Which, uh, isn't good either, but is what was happening. Plus definitely some "I don't enjoy this about him but I haven't learned I can talk about problems so I joke about it passive aggressively? I guess? I assign us aggressively heterosexual gender roles so I can make us fit in with everyone else?"
posted by gaybobbie at 4:11 PM on July 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
For me, the jokes were kind of self-deprecation but expanded to him? Like I saw us as a unit, so in my mind, he was fair game to talk about like I talked about myself. Which, uh, isn't good either, but is what was happening. Plus definitely some "I don't enjoy this about him but I haven't learned I can talk about problems so I joke about it passive aggressively? I guess? I assign us aggressively heterosexual gender roles so I can make us fit in with everyone else?"
posted by gaybobbie at 4:11 PM on July 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
1) is it possible to have a healthy, loving relationship with the funny-mean humor of putting each other down, even in front of others? Does this strengthen your bond somehow?
No, it's shitty.
2) or would this be described as contempt?
Yeah.
3) why are those shirts/posters/mugs/sayings etc about hating your husband or wife popular? Is it mostly popular with an older crowd or is this something that’s still popular with younger couples too? (it hasn’t in my case, especially with queer couples, but I also am not friends with everyone in my generation)
Lets people complain without taking any action, investing any emotion in building their relationship, cementing social norms within regions. Makes unhappiness within a relationship normal and okay; something neighbors experience.
I have a whole essay pending in my head on the subject of 'ice fishing' coupled with 'man caves' and ffs 'she sheds'.
In short, you're right to expect better within your personal life and it's sad that these people don't.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:12 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I guess I should add: gentle ribbing and teasing are not okay in my house.
They're okay in a lot of houses and that's fine, it's just something we actively discussed and we never do. For example, 'Shut up' is not something anyone gets to say. It's hurtful. BUT we all get that in a lot of households, that's just funny horsing around and we have to respect other people's family cultures.
That's just our deal.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:16 PM on July 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
They're okay in a lot of houses and that's fine, it's just something we actively discussed and we never do. For example, 'Shut up' is not something anyone gets to say. It's hurtful. BUT we all get that in a lot of households, that's just funny horsing around and we have to respect other people's family cultures.
That's just our deal.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:16 PM on July 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
I suspect that these are an artifact of a particular time and place, to wit: the point in the late twentieth century where marriage ceased to be an obligation. The WWII generation still felt tremendous societal pressure to get (and stay) married. They didn't always get to choose their partners, and even when they did, they didn't always choose based on love. It was/is common for people to be married to spouses they no longer love, or whom they never loved in the first place. After the majority of them had kids, divorce became common, and their boomer kids grew up in an atmosphere where a) they were familiar with unhappy relationships, and b) they had permission to acknowledge their own unhappiness in relationships.
I suspect the reason you see this so often in older people is because today's older people are from in between those two generations. They have the firsthand experience of unhappiness in marriage, but haven't gotten divorced for whatever reason. To the extent that the phenomenon is seen in younger people, I'd bet it's either in this in-between geberation's kids, or disillusioned children of divorce. I bet it's going to be less common as that historical moment fades and people have an expectation of love in relationships.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:35 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
I suspect the reason you see this so often in older people is because today's older people are from in between those two generations. They have the firsthand experience of unhappiness in marriage, but haven't gotten divorced for whatever reason. To the extent that the phenomenon is seen in younger people, I'd bet it's either in this in-between geberation's kids, or disillusioned children of divorce. I bet it's going to be less common as that historical moment fades and people have an expectation of love in relationships.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:35 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
The mainstream narrative (which does seem to be changing, thank goodness) is that women only have sex with men to trap them into providing for them and that men are obsessed with sex but don't get to have it unless they put up with a nagging wife. It's framed in a variety of ways ranging from romantic to pure nastiness, but that's the basic narrative. So the "jokes" play on that narrative since we all "know" that it's true, and I think they also (as people have said) function as a release valve for couples who thought that it was true and so ended up in shitty relationships, which reinforces the "truth" of the cultural narrative. It's basically a way of normalizing misogyny.
posted by lazuli at 6:15 PM on July 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 6:15 PM on July 29, 2019 [7 favorites]
For what it's worth, I wouldn't necessarily assume the audience for all of these shirts and mugs etc is married couples. “My wife and I were happy for 20 years. Then we met." is a Rodney Dangerfield joke, and I think it's supposed to be about his *ex*-wife. Dangerfield suffered from depression and substance abuse and was divorced twice, both times from the same woman. When looked at from that perspective it's more like dark humor than it is contempt...
posted by phoenixy at 6:21 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by phoenixy at 6:21 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
It’s complicated but it’s also cultural. And there’s a class dynamic at work here too.
Here’s an example from county music, where these tropes are canonical.
“You’re the Reason Our Kids Are Ugly.” -Conway Twitty and Loretta Lynn
I can find plenty of examples from R & B too.
posted by spitbull at 6:30 PM on July 29, 2019
Here’s an example from county music, where these tropes are canonical.
“You’re the Reason Our Kids Are Ugly.” -Conway Twitty and Loretta Lynn
I can find plenty of examples from R & B too.
posted by spitbull at 6:30 PM on July 29, 2019
Like a lot of other Mars/Venus, battle-of-the-sexes tropes, I see this one most from people who are insecure about their own masculinity or femininity, and who have grown up with the idea that said masculinity or femininity is essential to their character and desirability.
“Well, I’m not athletic or a breadwinner, and when no one’s around I listen to showtunes, so I’ll buy this ‘game over’ happy-bride/sad-groom t-shirt to prove I’m a man.”
posted by armeowda at 7:10 PM on July 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
“Well, I’m not athletic or a breadwinner, and when no one’s around I listen to showtunes, so I’ll buy this ‘game over’ happy-bride/sad-groom t-shirt to prove I’m a man.”
posted by armeowda at 7:10 PM on July 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Some people may do this because that's what they've seen, at home, on tv, and they think it's how people relate
This is absolutely some of it. This has been driven home for me over and over again by spending time with different groups of genuinely kind and loving people at work and in family settings who talk in cliches they have heard on TV and from their friends because they think that's how they're supposed to talk. Many of those cliches come from this territory. It breaks my heart, because while it doesn't start out as an expression of genuine contempt, it does become ingrained and normalized, and what they were once just parroting eventually becomes "this is just how it is" and this is how everyday sexism and racism just perpetuates forever.
There are definitely also people who talk like this because they have genuine contempt for their partners, too, though.
posted by rhiannonstone at 8:03 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
This is absolutely some of it. This has been driven home for me over and over again by spending time with different groups of genuinely kind and loving people at work and in family settings who talk in cliches they have heard on TV and from their friends because they think that's how they're supposed to talk. Many of those cliches come from this territory. It breaks my heart, because while it doesn't start out as an expression of genuine contempt, it does become ingrained and normalized, and what they were once just parroting eventually becomes "this is just how it is" and this is how everyday sexism and racism just perpetuates forever.
There are definitely also people who talk like this because they have genuine contempt for their partners, too, though.
posted by rhiannonstone at 8:03 PM on July 29, 2019 [5 favorites]
there's plenty of this shit that is no better and no worse than the standard jokes about selling your kids to the local ethnic stereotypes / lolling over your dumb senile mother who doesn't understand computers, both of which are very common around here albeit in updated form, denuded of offensive terminology while leaving the basic offensive (?) structure intact.
you can argue that it's funny to joke about hating your kids because obviously you don't (even though we all know there are people who do) or funny to joke about hating your parents, because either obviously you don't, or obviously you do but they deserve it. but those arguments are the same ones these t-shirt wearers and mug-havers would make.
the main difference is the misogyny. and so arguments that don't centralize the misogyny, but nevertheless attempt to prove that no marriage whose inhabitants enjoy a tiresome cliche written on their midsections can be happy, tend to ring very hollow. they can be people you don't like to be around without being people who don't love each other, necessarily.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:23 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
you can argue that it's funny to joke about hating your kids because obviously you don't (even though we all know there are people who do) or funny to joke about hating your parents, because either obviously you don't, or obviously you do but they deserve it. but those arguments are the same ones these t-shirt wearers and mug-havers would make.
the main difference is the misogyny. and so arguments that don't centralize the misogyny, but nevertheless attempt to prove that no marriage whose inhabitants enjoy a tiresome cliche written on their midsections can be happy, tend to ring very hollow. they can be people you don't like to be around without being people who don't love each other, necessarily.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:23 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
3) why are those shirts/posters/mugs/sayings etc about hating your husband or wife popular? Is it mostly popular with an older crowd or is this something that’s still popular with younger couples too?
As lazuli (and others) point out above, this is absolutely an old patriarchal cultural trope - that marriage is a best an occasionally pleasant (although mostly not) but necessary alliance between two people who have entirely different and mutually incomprehensible goals and desires for life. (With the additional underlying assumption that these differing attitudes and goals are the "natural" order of things, rather than the result of cultural influences and social attitudes.) It's very gender-essentialist and simplistic, but it was the dominant cultural narrative for many many years.
So yes, very generally speaking, older folks do tend to go for this more than younger folks, although there is undoubtedly an element of social conservatism and probably an urban/rural divide at play too. Younger folks in rural areas - which tend to be more socially conservative - may well buy into this kind of "humor."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
As lazuli (and others) point out above, this is absolutely an old patriarchal cultural trope - that marriage is a best an occasionally pleasant (although mostly not) but necessary alliance between two people who have entirely different and mutually incomprehensible goals and desires for life. (With the additional underlying assumption that these differing attitudes and goals are the "natural" order of things, rather than the result of cultural influences and social attitudes.) It's very gender-essentialist and simplistic, but it was the dominant cultural narrative for many many years.
So yes, very generally speaking, older folks do tend to go for this more than younger folks, although there is undoubtedly an element of social conservatism and probably an urban/rural divide at play too. Younger folks in rural areas - which tend to be more socially conservative - may well buy into this kind of "humor."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:32 PM on July 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
Wow. Lots of us have lots of opinions about other people's relationships.
I suggest reading some of the work of John Gottman. He followed dozens of relationships in depth for more than 20 years. The strength of the relationship wasn't necessarily how they treated each other, but whether they agreed with each other about what was okay. It's truly just between the two of them. By doing long term observation with no judgmental bias, he was able to learn not just what other people thought of a marriage, but whether they were still married 20 years later, and drew his conclusions from that.
(full disclosure: Mr. K and I were some of the earliest test subjects; still married at 39 years. And have seen enough relationships to know that even the nature of an "I'm with stupid" shirt depends on how the two people feel about it.)
posted by kestralwing at 10:41 PM on July 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I suggest reading some of the work of John Gottman. He followed dozens of relationships in depth for more than 20 years. The strength of the relationship wasn't necessarily how they treated each other, but whether they agreed with each other about what was okay. It's truly just between the two of them. By doing long term observation with no judgmental bias, he was able to learn not just what other people thought of a marriage, but whether they were still married 20 years later, and drew his conclusions from that.
(full disclosure: Mr. K and I were some of the earliest test subjects; still married at 39 years. And have seen enough relationships to know that even the nature of an "I'm with stupid" shirt depends on how the two people feel about it.)
posted by kestralwing at 10:41 PM on July 29, 2019 [8 favorites]
I have met lots of people who buy and wear these t-shirts (used to work on Brighton Pier, now I’m a hospital doctor, you meet a wide cross-section of society).
People buy them because they read the slogan and think it’s funny. Often no relationship between the t-shirt and their marriage - I’ve had patients show me the T-shirt, carefully explain the joke, and then say “but of course my Belinda’s nothing like that, she’s wonderful, we’ve been together 47 years this May and never a cross word”. Plenty of couples buy them together as a shared joke. It wouldn’t be funny if it was true. The discordance is the joke. Equally plenty of people buy the “My mum went to London and all I got was this lousy T-shirt ” T-shirts for themselves, not for their children, just because they’ve heard of it.
It’s like the man who says “cheer up love it might never happen!” and thinks he’s a wit referencing a common saying, and not just a man acting like a knob. Some people are easily amused, and they are on holiday, in a good mood, so they buy an amusing t-shirt. That’s it, no further introspection. The slogans date back to 1970s mother in law jokes but in the same way that knock knock jokes are still funny, people still like stupid “Take my wife” jokes regardless of the state of their own actual marriages.
Very few actual long term marriages are like that, no. I’ve known one or two, but they were clearly totally dysfunctional to even a casual observer and the couple themselves were under no illusions whatsoever.
posted by tinkletown at 12:07 AM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
People buy them because they read the slogan and think it’s funny. Often no relationship between the t-shirt and their marriage - I’ve had patients show me the T-shirt, carefully explain the joke, and then say “but of course my Belinda’s nothing like that, she’s wonderful, we’ve been together 47 years this May and never a cross word”. Plenty of couples buy them together as a shared joke. It wouldn’t be funny if it was true. The discordance is the joke. Equally plenty of people buy the “My mum went to London and all I got was this lousy T-shirt ” T-shirts for themselves, not for their children, just because they’ve heard of it.
It’s like the man who says “cheer up love it might never happen!” and thinks he’s a wit referencing a common saying, and not just a man acting like a knob. Some people are easily amused, and they are on holiday, in a good mood, so they buy an amusing t-shirt. That’s it, no further introspection. The slogans date back to 1970s mother in law jokes but in the same way that knock knock jokes are still funny, people still like stupid “Take my wife” jokes regardless of the state of their own actual marriages.
Very few actual long term marriages are like that, no. I’ve known one or two, but they were clearly totally dysfunctional to even a casual observer and the couple themselves were under no illusions whatsoever.
posted by tinkletown at 12:07 AM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
No.
It all depends on what you decide is a healthy relationship. It's your choice to tell them - or not tell them - that you don't like what they're saying.
If you like don't like the funny-mean jokes then say so. Set your boundaries with what YOU are comfortable with and if a person refuses to fit into your boundaries - or compromise to do so - then they don't respect YOUR boundaries and they don't respect you.
posted by bendy at 1:23 AM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
It all depends on what you decide is a healthy relationship. It's your choice to tell them - or not tell them - that you don't like what they're saying.
If you like don't like the funny-mean jokes then say so. Set your boundaries with what YOU are comfortable with and if a person refuses to fit into your boundaries - or compromise to do so - then they don't respect YOUR boundaries and they don't respect you.
posted by bendy at 1:23 AM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
Just a datapoint- my parents, now in their sixties, have been married nearly 40 years and do this funny-mean dynamic (mostly Mum does it to Dad) a lot. Their relationship is not one I would want to emulate - between them there has been domestic violence, gambling issues and emotional abuse for some or all of my life. I think they have no idea how it looks to other people when they behave like that. But in their case at least it is the tip of the iceberg.
posted by EatMyHat at 3:44 AM on July 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by EatMyHat at 3:44 AM on July 30, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think you can make the distinction that it's normalized, while not being healthy.
This dynamic was foreign to me as a child because my parents respected one another, so I had a very puzzled time reading Sunday comics (another data point, last year we celebrated my parents' 50th anniversary, and they have never done this). But I have come to understand this as a retreat to safe roles and tropes, though I really would have expected it to die out by now. People feel at home in this stuff, feel like it legitimizes their relationship as something that fits a classic pattern and that they're doing it "right" in some way that gives them belonging within a tribe.
At a minimum I'd say couples that do this might love one another and get along really well, but they are probably not relating to one another as full and complex human beings.
Why don't you ask your relatives how they feel about it - I mean deeply, getting beyond "We're just having fun/it's just a joke."
posted by Miko at 5:55 AM on July 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
This dynamic was foreign to me as a child because my parents respected one another, so I had a very puzzled time reading Sunday comics (another data point, last year we celebrated my parents' 50th anniversary, and they have never done this). But I have come to understand this as a retreat to safe roles and tropes, though I really would have expected it to die out by now. People feel at home in this stuff, feel like it legitimizes their relationship as something that fits a classic pattern and that they're doing it "right" in some way that gives them belonging within a tribe.
At a minimum I'd say couples that do this might love one another and get along really well, but they are probably not relating to one another as full and complex human beings.
Why don't you ask your relatives how they feel about it - I mean deeply, getting beyond "We're just having fun/it's just a joke."
posted by Miko at 5:55 AM on July 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
I've seen this in deeply committed couples who love each other very much, but who are working around the fact that other people are flawed and hard to live with. I am thinking particularly of a couple where the wife is an absolute control freak. Her spouse defers to her constantly because if there is a dirty spoon on the counter she can't relax until it is washed, dried, polished and put away in the right part of the tray the right way up.
Now they run the local children's lunch program and her mad kitchen skills are the bedrock that keeps it going. She can get a gang of volunteers in and out of the kitchen in an hour and fifteen minutes, feeding eighty kids a hot lunch and finish with the kitchen so clean and put away that you can't convince anyone that we even have a lunch program. Her failing is the same as her primary strength. Her spouse loves her and cherishes her for it - among other strengths. And they talk about when he had his heart attack and she thought she had lost him, and he talks about how he feels he survived that heart attack so that they can keep the lunch program going, and they both talk about how they adore the kids.
But they also mention that the kids will not eat chicken noodle soup that has carrots in it, and never ever serve chicken noodle soup with carrots. Can you believe a kid would refuse to eat lunch because of one quarter inch cube of carrot? And the guy breaks into an absolute beam when the kids come into the building.
And sometimes he makes quips about how she rules him. Because sometimes it is hard to keep working around her weakness, and sometimes when she won't let him have more than one leftover cookies at their coffee break because he is a diabetic and the doctor told him one cookie max, he quips about that. He really would like to have a second cookie. Ball and chain, I tell you...
There is a parallel about how guys who rib each other talk to each other. There's an old joke about four women who go out to lunch and their four husbands who go out to lunch. Part of it runs something like, "Linda, Kate, Paula and Janice go out for lunch. They call each other Linda, Kate, Paula and Janice. Fred, Luke, Bradley, and Jeff go out for lunch. They will refer to each other as Fatso, Farts, Four-eyes and the Dumb One..."
We will sometimes treat the ones we love the most badly, simply because we know they understand us, accept us, will forgive us and know that we love them and need them and will understand, accept and forgive them when they too do these things.
There was a woman who always complained about her husband snoring and even made a recording of him sleeping to prove to him that he snored. When he died the only way she could sleep was to play the recording.
I absolutely do not think that saying hateful things about your partner is healthy. But "mean" things can be said as an acknowledgement that we have to accommodate each other in a healthy relationship. Any good relationship will require some submission to each other. Nobody gets their own way all the time in a good relationship. Yes, sometimes these quips are the leakage of dysfunctional enmeshment and true hate. Sometimes these quips are just letting off a little steam. And sometimes these quips can even be gratitude, words that mean thank God there is someone who cares enough to want me to stay on my diet and who would throw herself in front of a truck to save my life - but still can't stop herself from exclaiming, "Who left that there!" when they see a dirty spoon left on a counter.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:57 AM on July 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Now they run the local children's lunch program and her mad kitchen skills are the bedrock that keeps it going. She can get a gang of volunteers in and out of the kitchen in an hour and fifteen minutes, feeding eighty kids a hot lunch and finish with the kitchen so clean and put away that you can't convince anyone that we even have a lunch program. Her failing is the same as her primary strength. Her spouse loves her and cherishes her for it - among other strengths. And they talk about when he had his heart attack and she thought she had lost him, and he talks about how he feels he survived that heart attack so that they can keep the lunch program going, and they both talk about how they adore the kids.
But they also mention that the kids will not eat chicken noodle soup that has carrots in it, and never ever serve chicken noodle soup with carrots. Can you believe a kid would refuse to eat lunch because of one quarter inch cube of carrot? And the guy breaks into an absolute beam when the kids come into the building.
And sometimes he makes quips about how she rules him. Because sometimes it is hard to keep working around her weakness, and sometimes when she won't let him have more than one leftover cookies at their coffee break because he is a diabetic and the doctor told him one cookie max, he quips about that. He really would like to have a second cookie. Ball and chain, I tell you...
There is a parallel about how guys who rib each other talk to each other. There's an old joke about four women who go out to lunch and their four husbands who go out to lunch. Part of it runs something like, "Linda, Kate, Paula and Janice go out for lunch. They call each other Linda, Kate, Paula and Janice. Fred, Luke, Bradley, and Jeff go out for lunch. They will refer to each other as Fatso, Farts, Four-eyes and the Dumb One..."
We will sometimes treat the ones we love the most badly, simply because we know they understand us, accept us, will forgive us and know that we love them and need them and will understand, accept and forgive them when they too do these things.
There was a woman who always complained about her husband snoring and even made a recording of him sleeping to prove to him that he snored. When he died the only way she could sleep was to play the recording.
I absolutely do not think that saying hateful things about your partner is healthy. But "mean" things can be said as an acknowledgement that we have to accommodate each other in a healthy relationship. Any good relationship will require some submission to each other. Nobody gets their own way all the time in a good relationship. Yes, sometimes these quips are the leakage of dysfunctional enmeshment and true hate. Sometimes these quips are just letting off a little steam. And sometimes these quips can even be gratitude, words that mean thank God there is someone who cares enough to want me to stay on my diet and who would throw herself in front of a truck to save my life - but still can't stop herself from exclaiming, "Who left that there!" when they see a dirty spoon left on a counter.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:57 AM on July 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
1) Yep. I call this the 'grumpy obligation' relationship model (I don't think I made that term up) and some people do seem to thrive on it, or at least expect it so much that they seek it out.
2) Yep.
Only the participants know for sure. And, well, they may think they know different things.
3) Gender policing.
My parents (cishet couple) were married for 50+ years (until 1 died), quite happily, and they did not speak to/about each other like that in my hearing. Which I must say I'm glad about!
posted by inexorably_forward at 6:41 AM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
2) Yep.
Only the participants know for sure. And, well, they may think they know different things.
3) Gender policing.
My parents (cishet couple) were married for 50+ years (until 1 died), quite happily, and they did not speak to/about each other like that in my hearing. Which I must say I'm glad about!
posted by inexorably_forward at 6:41 AM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
Not to get too far into the weeds, but yes, I believe a couple can spar without it being representative of misogyny or abuse. I wouldn't make that the default interpretation of such behavior by any means, but it is possible.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 7:10 AM on July 30, 2019
posted by DrAstroZoom at 7:10 AM on July 30, 2019
a couple can spar without it being representative of misogyny or abuse
Yes, that's true that people can "spar" and still share love, but when they use this specific kind of language/joke, they are recruiting the tropes of misogyny or abuse into the interaction. Those are culturally available to them, and when they use them, it is representative of those things - it can't not be - whether or not you think those people really feel or believe those things at a deep level.
posted by Miko at 8:13 AM on July 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
Yes, that's true that people can "spar" and still share love, but when they use this specific kind of language/joke, they are recruiting the tropes of misogyny or abuse into the interaction. Those are culturally available to them, and when they use them, it is representative of those things - it can't not be - whether or not you think those people really feel or believe those things at a deep level.
posted by Miko at 8:13 AM on July 30, 2019 [6 favorites]
So, one of the common themes of The Onion's editorial comics is a satire of this sort of Lockhorns-style "grumpy obligation" (Great term, inexorably_forward!) relationship by turning the subtext into text. Today's was a pretty good example.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:57 AM on July 30, 2019
posted by tobascodagama at 10:57 AM on July 30, 2019
I think this is popular almost entirely because of TV and movies, which can have a big influence on what we view as normal or ideal in relationships.
Banter and mean quips can be an effective way of building romantic/sexual tension in a narrative, but a relationship isn't a narrative. A lot of these types of stories end in the resolution of the will they/won't they tension, but in real life, once you've gotten married or otherwise agreed to a mutual level of commitment that usually signals the end of a narrative, you have years and years of partnership left, which would be deeply unpleasant to spend locked in a roast battle with your own partner. That's why it can be so pleasing to watch a Taming of the Shrew-style rom com, but that dynamic mapped onto a real relationship quickly curdles into contempt.
posted by superfluousm at 11:28 AM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
Banter and mean quips can be an effective way of building romantic/sexual tension in a narrative, but a relationship isn't a narrative. A lot of these types of stories end in the resolution of the will they/won't they tension, but in real life, once you've gotten married or otherwise agreed to a mutual level of commitment that usually signals the end of a narrative, you have years and years of partnership left, which would be deeply unpleasant to spend locked in a roast battle with your own partner. That's why it can be so pleasing to watch a Taming of the Shrew-style rom com, but that dynamic mapped onto a real relationship quickly curdles into contempt.
posted by superfluousm at 11:28 AM on July 30, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think it's a symptom of a relationship that doesn't value respect over scoring a point at the other person's expense. In our >45 years long relationship, we don't do this kind of disrespect/teasing/scoring points publicly at the expense of the other person like, ever.
posted by Lynsey at 1:41 PM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Lynsey at 1:41 PM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have a pretty strong sense that it filtered down from the sit-coms that all seemed to move hard in that direction in the early 70s. People started aping shows like All in the Family in real life. I’m aware that there were plenty of antecedents in pop culture but I felt that there was a wave of shows that swept my relatives along. Suddenly every verbal exchange was a series of "put downs" ....but this was the impression on the mind of an overly sensitive kid, so I'd be interested in the perspectives of people over 60.
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:58 PM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by bonobothegreat at 4:58 PM on July 30, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have a pretty strong sense that it filtered down from the sit-coms that all seemed to move hard in that direction in the early 70s.
And a lot of the realism in those was reflecting a particular thing: untreated PTSD from WWII and Korea, and the generational dynamic it contributed to.
posted by Miko at 6:12 PM on July 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
And a lot of the realism in those was reflecting a particular thing: untreated PTSD from WWII and Korea, and the generational dynamic it contributed to.
posted by Miko at 6:12 PM on July 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Oh, for that matter, it turns up (same jokes different nouns) in nineteenth-century cartoons and eighteenth-century plays and Punch and Judy and probably Plautus.
posted by clew at 7:19 PM on July 30, 2019
posted by clew at 7:19 PM on July 30, 2019
The Facebook group Why get married if you hate your spouse? is dedicated to mocking this dynamic.
posted by daybeforetheday at 4:28 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by daybeforetheday at 4:28 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
My mom and her partner with do this all the time. Their social media looks more or less like what you'd expect if Al Bundy were a pair of 70 year old queer women. I find it strange and uncomfortable, but they seem to enjoy it. They always hold back just a bit and never go all the way for a killing blow. It's usually, "take my wife, please" level humor. But, from the outside, it looks really mean and uneccesisary.
They're fiercely independent people who started dating each other late in life after each putting up with decades of undeniably shitty relationships. They genuinely seem far happier together than apart. If it's internalized patriarchy - which isn't impossible - the influence is pretty subtle and indirect. They came of age in the '60s, but spent their youth largely rebelling against sitcom culture and hanging out in gay bars. I wouldn't want to live with either of them, but I can't see any reason to argue that they ought not to bicker as they do or that they don't genuinely care about each other. I do find it hard to figure out how to respond when it happens in person, though. I've gone with a super-exaggerated "I'm not taking sides" shtick so far. It seems to work.
In my marriage, we pretty much only make fun of geeky things the other person is actually a bit proud of. ("How the fuck can you possibly know when Pertinax died? Nobody knows that. I think you're cheating.") Mostly we get our mean humor kicks by judging other people and works of art when out of earshot.
As someone who experiences no natural disgust response and finds the idea intriguing, I used to get a kick out of thinking up the most calculatedly horrifying image related to the topic of conversation and watching my spouses' skin crawl. She told me to cut it out. I did. Except once a year or so when it's overwhelmingly obvious and impossible to resist.
posted by eotvos at 3:30 PM on July 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
They're fiercely independent people who started dating each other late in life after each putting up with decades of undeniably shitty relationships. They genuinely seem far happier together than apart. If it's internalized patriarchy - which isn't impossible - the influence is pretty subtle and indirect. They came of age in the '60s, but spent their youth largely rebelling against sitcom culture and hanging out in gay bars. I wouldn't want to live with either of them, but I can't see any reason to argue that they ought not to bicker as they do or that they don't genuinely care about each other. I do find it hard to figure out how to respond when it happens in person, though. I've gone with a super-exaggerated "I'm not taking sides" shtick so far. It seems to work.
In my marriage, we pretty much only make fun of geeky things the other person is actually a bit proud of. ("How the fuck can you possibly know when Pertinax died? Nobody knows that. I think you're cheating.") Mostly we get our mean humor kicks by judging other people and works of art when out of earshot.
As someone who experiences no natural disgust response and finds the idea intriguing, I used to get a kick out of thinking up the most calculatedly horrifying image related to the topic of conversation and watching my spouses' skin crawl. She told me to cut it out. I did. Except once a year or so when it's overwhelmingly obvious and impossible to resist.
posted by eotvos at 3:30 PM on July 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
My mom and her partner with do this all the time. Their social media looks more or less like what you'd expect if Al Bundy were a pair of 70 year old queer women
I think there can be a different dynamic when queer people use the language or tropes of cis-het people. Sometimes, yes, it is an unconscious reproduction of the phenomena, but there are also queer people who consciously chose to use these ideas and in doing so are subtly or not-so-subtly subverting them. Simply by not being a heterosexual couple, there is an element of subversion because mainstream culture is built around heteronormative assumptions, and queer couples sometimes deliberately use or transform the ideas. Not saying this is necessarily the case above, just that queer relationships are not always (ever?) working on the same baseline that the average heterosexual relationship in the same cultural & locale is.
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:32 AM on August 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think there can be a different dynamic when queer people use the language or tropes of cis-het people. Sometimes, yes, it is an unconscious reproduction of the phenomena, but there are also queer people who consciously chose to use these ideas and in doing so are subtly or not-so-subtly subverting them. Simply by not being a heterosexual couple, there is an element of subversion because mainstream culture is built around heteronormative assumptions, and queer couples sometimes deliberately use or transform the ideas. Not saying this is necessarily the case above, just that queer relationships are not always (ever?) working on the same baseline that the average heterosexual relationship in the same cultural & locale is.
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:32 AM on August 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I also feel this discussion is not always making a distinction between the bickering/giving a hard time dynamic and the reliance on sexist notions of partnership as an obligation undertaken reluctantly are muddying things a bit. I think razzing your partner in a non-gendered way is one thing, but "the ol' ball and chain" type stuff is another.
posted by Miko at 9:23 AM on August 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 9:23 AM on August 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
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