how to figure out how much of a raise you want? (NYC, tech)
July 25, 2019 6:24 AM Subscribe
My wife is one of these fancy web programmers (Google on her resume, etc.) and her boss actually approached her to ask how much of a promotion and raise she would like. She told him she'd think about it, but she doesn't actually know how to go about thinking about it. We've read generic advice on the internet (e.g., Ask A Manager) but that doesn't account for some recent changes in management, very generous PTO, and recent personal-life issues. Hope us?
Some recent history:
Her current company has unlimited vacation and actually allows her to exercise it. She values this because New York is too much of a city for her and too far from her family, so she visits them often. She's also been using the time out and the work-from-home policy to deal with some chronic (and recently worse) medical issues which require daytime appointments.
Despite all this time out, she's apparently regarded as extremely productive. By their internal salary tables, she's already paid the middle of the range for the next title up, hence the concomitant offer of a promotion.
The company is also hiring aggressively, and going through some growing pains. The last few months, she's been weirdly between managers, because she transferred teams and at least one if not both those teams got new managers at the same time. So she's very much been neglected for a while, and it sounds like her boss realizes this.
All this is to say, it sounds like she's in a strong position, but we're not sure how quite how far we can push it. I have no relevant experience with this level of internet-company money and norms. My first thought would be to collect salary data from others in her office and in her field. Is there any reasonable way to to do that? If not, what else would you recommend?
We're mostly looking to rule out the possibility that this company publishes below-market salary bands, and to stay on track for future promotions and raises. We're making enough to live on (by my standards incredibly more than we need to live on, but that's tech for you), so there's (fortunately) not as simple a calculation as, I need this much more to make rent reliably.
She's been at this company about a year and a half now. She'd ideally like to stay longer, so that she doesn't have to start a new job with these health issues, but she says she'll start looking if this raise doesn't come through, because she has to stay competitive with the market.
Some recent history:
Her current company has unlimited vacation and actually allows her to exercise it. She values this because New York is too much of a city for her and too far from her family, so she visits them often. She's also been using the time out and the work-from-home policy to deal with some chronic (and recently worse) medical issues which require daytime appointments.
Despite all this time out, she's apparently regarded as extremely productive. By their internal salary tables, she's already paid the middle of the range for the next title up, hence the concomitant offer of a promotion.
The company is also hiring aggressively, and going through some growing pains. The last few months, she's been weirdly between managers, because she transferred teams and at least one if not both those teams got new managers at the same time. So she's very much been neglected for a while, and it sounds like her boss realizes this.
All this is to say, it sounds like she's in a strong position, but we're not sure how quite how far we can push it. I have no relevant experience with this level of internet-company money and norms. My first thought would be to collect salary data from others in her office and in her field. Is there any reasonable way to to do that? If not, what else would you recommend?
We're mostly looking to rule out the possibility that this company publishes below-market salary bands, and to stay on track for future promotions and raises. We're making enough to live on (by my standards incredibly more than we need to live on, but that's tech for you), so there's (fortunately) not as simple a calculation as, I need this much more to make rent reliably.
She's been at this company about a year and a half now. She'd ideally like to stay longer, so that she doesn't have to start a new job with these health issues, but she says she'll start looking if this raise doesn't come through, because she has to stay competitive with the market.
Get to glassdoor to start to get a basic understanding of the salaries for her position and city. What you need to make rent reliably or any other metric like that isn't relevant to this discussion - what would she (actually, an equivalent he) be paid elsewhere for the same job? Make dang sure you're asking for at least this, and maybe even add a small percentage as the cost to replace her from her company's point of view is non-trivial. And think about the entire compensation package - salary, 401k contributions, spending accounts, health care, annual bonuses, stock options if relevant, etc
At some point though, the money isn't as nearly important as other quality life things. Generally developers in the US are paid well, so it's the extra things that it sounds like she already has (vacation, location flexibility) plus working hours/week (how hard are devs pushed to work long hours?), etc that are very much a part of the equation. Those are harder to research unfortunately. Is there more you would want here?
You say promotion is in the cards as well - what does a promotion mean here? Doing the same job, but at a different salary band? Or more responsibility - mentoring junior developers, owning/responsible for projects/features increasing in complexity/importance? Increasing influence in the (dev) org, or just increased expectations as an individual contributor? Product ownership? Project management? These are things she should ask her manager, and then should think about where she wants her career to go. What you actually do now has a lot of influence on what you'll likely to be hired to do next in a different company, so if there's opportunity she's looking for now's the time to speak up.
Source - I, a woman in tech, who leads, hires and otherwise deals with a non-small group of software developers as a middle manager in a large company, although not your company or city. I've come up through the software developer ranks to this role and learning and dealing with how the company deals with all this stuff has been an interesting experience.
posted by cgg at 7:09 AM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
At some point though, the money isn't as nearly important as other quality life things. Generally developers in the US are paid well, so it's the extra things that it sounds like she already has (vacation, location flexibility) plus working hours/week (how hard are devs pushed to work long hours?), etc that are very much a part of the equation. Those are harder to research unfortunately. Is there more you would want here?
You say promotion is in the cards as well - what does a promotion mean here? Doing the same job, but at a different salary band? Or more responsibility - mentoring junior developers, owning/responsible for projects/features increasing in complexity/importance? Increasing influence in the (dev) org, or just increased expectations as an individual contributor? Product ownership? Project management? These are things she should ask her manager, and then should think about where she wants her career to go. What you actually do now has a lot of influence on what you'll likely to be hired to do next in a different company, so if there's opportunity she's looking for now's the time to speak up.
Source - I, a woman in tech, who leads, hires and otherwise deals with a non-small group of software developers as a middle manager in a large company, although not your company or city. I've come up through the software developer ranks to this role and learning and dealing with how the company deals with all this stuff has been an interesting experience.
posted by cgg at 7:09 AM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
IME, giving ranges never works in your favor. Just say “how much you think is appropriate for my contributions.” I’ve always done my research though my school and Glassdoor, and every time it’s come in higher than I would have asked for. Because then the numbers are on them and they always give the higher band.
So, do the research but don’t give them numbers. Only do that when it comes
in lower than expected which hasn’t happened to me three separate times (again maybe lucky).
posted by pando11 at 8:05 AM on July 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
So, do the research but don’t give them numbers. Only do that when it comes
in lower than expected which hasn’t happened to me three separate times (again maybe lucky).
posted by pando11 at 8:05 AM on July 25, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yes, standard negotiating tactics apply here. Do your research so you know what you are worth, but don't be the first one to mention a number.
posted by OrangeDisk at 8:08 AM on July 25, 2019
posted by OrangeDisk at 8:08 AM on July 25, 2019
I prepared myself for negotiations on my recent temp-to-perm job offer (tech industry) by having a chat with a trusted male colleague at my level to get his perspective on what I could reasonably expect. (I am a woman.) The offer was exactly what my colleague predicted it would be. She should ask for 10% more than whatever number she comes up with, but settle for the number if necessary.
The only other thing I can think of is ask colleagues who have been hired in the last couple years - long-timers might be underpaid if their raises haven’t kept up with the market.
I’m an avid AAM reader so I get all my techniques from there.
posted by matildaben at 8:13 AM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
The only other thing I can think of is ask colleagues who have been hired in the last couple years - long-timers might be underpaid if their raises haven’t kept up with the market.
I’m an avid AAM reader so I get all my techniques from there.
posted by matildaben at 8:13 AM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Oh, yes, and also I didn’t name a number up front. I asked “what is the range you would normally offer for someone at this level”. But I had been prepared and wasn’t surprised by their answer.
posted by matildaben at 8:14 AM on July 25, 2019
posted by matildaben at 8:14 AM on July 25, 2019
Everyone's talking about the raise and the money (which is important) but equally important is positioning yourself with the promotion. If your company has banded salary ranges (which it looks like they do), and you're able to leapfrog the next position up (where you're already at the median level) into a higher one, but lower in that band, it'll give you significantly more room to receive increases without hitting the upper end of the band in the future. Of course, there's likely more responsibilities in that higher position, but you may want to consider pushing for the promotion to be higher as well.
posted by splen at 8:23 AM on July 25, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by splen at 8:23 AM on July 25, 2019 [4 favorites]
My wife is one of these fancy web programmers (Google on her resume, etc.)
Like, an actual L4/L5 SWE at Google in NYC? If so, she's should better at the promotion game than most people on this website, since (according to Blind anyway) everyone at GOOG seems to spend 80% of their energy towards getting promoted.
If she's already on the "maybe I'll walk if the number isn't right" side of things, just start interviewing now and start the negotiate with her current job with hard numbers from offers in hand. It's a sellers market these days for engineers, and there is no reason to be coy with compensation requirements.
posted by sideshow at 12:36 PM on July 25, 2019
Like, an actual L4/L5 SWE at Google in NYC? If so, she's should better at the promotion game than most people on this website, since (according to Blind anyway) everyone at GOOG seems to spend 80% of their energy towards getting promoted.
If she's already on the "maybe I'll walk if the number isn't right" side of things, just start interviewing now and start the negotiate with her current job with hard numbers from offers in hand. It's a sellers market these days for engineers, and there is no reason to be coy with compensation requirements.
posted by sideshow at 12:36 PM on July 25, 2019
Don't trust glassdoor, its salary ranges aren't very accurate in my experience. Start interviewing and talk to peers. A lot depends on what kind of company she's at, though.
posted by 168 at 4:14 PM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by 168 at 4:14 PM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
Jumping in here to say that engineer compensation has changed a lot in SF and NYC in the last year. Recent numbers are very very much more useful than older ones. Blind is a cesspool, but good for getting numbers.
posted by thebigdeadwaltz at 4:58 PM on July 25, 2019
posted by thebigdeadwaltz at 4:58 PM on July 25, 2019
Levels.fyi is the place to go if she's a software engineer doing tech company compensation research. If she previously worked at Google, she's already probably familiar with their levels, but these resources might be helpful as well to interpret those datapoints: Facebook Levels, Levels Linklist
+1 to cgg's point that it's important to sort out whether she's expected to do more at the next level. Most tech companies promote engineers after they're operating at the next level of impact, but now is an excellent opportunity to discuss what the level after that looks like in terms of impact and expectations if she wants to move in that direction.
posted by asphericalcow at 5:18 PM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
+1 to cgg's point that it's important to sort out whether she's expected to do more at the next level. Most tech companies promote engineers after they're operating at the next level of impact, but now is an excellent opportunity to discuss what the level after that looks like in terms of impact and expectations if she wants to move in that direction.
posted by asphericalcow at 5:18 PM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don't know the NYC market specifically. The senior devs I know tend to make somewhere between $120-200K base plus somewhere between $20-100K in bonuses and stock grants. The higher end of that range is generally people in the Bay area where cost of living is high but I do know people good enough to command that while telecommuting.
posted by Candleman at 6:10 PM on July 25, 2019
posted by Candleman at 6:10 PM on July 25, 2019
> If she's already on the "maybe I'll walk if the number isn't right" side of things, just start interviewing now and start the negotiate with her current job with hard numbers from offers in hand. It's a sellers market these days for engineers, and there is no reason to be coy with compensation requirements.
i agree with sideshow. maybe i'm jaded, but one way to play this is to think through: "suppose $current_employer is not willing to make a reasonable offer. so what? will i just accept it? maybe i'll just accept it because i like the other conditions (unlimited vacation, etc)". put a bit of energy into cultivating acceptable alternatives -- is there a competitor that would offer a 30% raise and match the vacation benefits? you don't need to rub your current employer's face in the fact that you have alternative options. then open negotiations knowing this market data.
that said, if you are at an org which understands the value of productive employees who know the current org and systems, and have enough experience with systems and how stuff gets done, you are likely worth more to the current employer than to a new employer where you would need to ramp up over a few months. but that does not necessarily meant that your current employer is willing to pay accordingly. if you signed on with an initially low offer, they might try to play the game of "HR policy says we can only give a max raise of _blah_", and use this to anchor future raises well below what other employees delivering similar output who joined at a higher salary point are getting paid.
posted by are-coral-made at 2:53 AM on July 26, 2019
i agree with sideshow. maybe i'm jaded, but one way to play this is to think through: "suppose $current_employer is not willing to make a reasonable offer. so what? will i just accept it? maybe i'll just accept it because i like the other conditions (unlimited vacation, etc)". put a bit of energy into cultivating acceptable alternatives -- is there a competitor that would offer a 30% raise and match the vacation benefits? you don't need to rub your current employer's face in the fact that you have alternative options. then open negotiations knowing this market data.
that said, if you are at an org which understands the value of productive employees who know the current org and systems, and have enough experience with systems and how stuff gets done, you are likely worth more to the current employer than to a new employer where you would need to ramp up over a few months. but that does not necessarily meant that your current employer is willing to pay accordingly. if you signed on with an initially low offer, they might try to play the game of "HR policy says we can only give a max raise of _blah_", and use this to anchor future raises well below what other employees delivering similar output who joined at a higher salary point are getting paid.
posted by are-coral-made at 2:53 AM on July 26, 2019
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posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:44 AM on July 25, 2019 [1 favorite]