Am I my brothers' keeper?
June 25, 2019 8:17 PM Subscribe
I need help deciding if/how I should act in a family scenario when remaining neutral feels like siding with the oppressor. The hive mind has given me perspective on previous relations and I expect having anonymous internet strangers give me feedback will help again. Too much beyond the fold.
Back story: I am the youngest girl of a very large Catholic family, so there are many plots and story lines. My parents are both deceased. We are all 40+ in age. I could write series upon series of our lives. It is hard to disentangle from these stories, but this issue has to do with my brother closest in age to me (I’ll call Steve) and my eldest brother (I’ll call Harry).
Steve and I are only one year apart in age. He was very popular in school and girls always tried to be my friend to get to know him. We were never friends growing up and ran in totally different crowds; I didn’t like his friends, he didn’t particularly like mine. I was never jealous of him but rather annoyed that his life impacted mine. After college, one of my closest friends began dating and then married him. More than anything I was annoyed that my friend (I’ll call Polly) married him – I felt like it was a dick move but didn’t want to end the friendship. For the most part Polly and I have remained friends and Steve and I tolerate each other, but I have to admit I am not 100% happy with their partnership and life decisions. I think that Steve is a liar and has no integrity, he consistently lies about money, has declared bankruptcy and takes advantage of people.
About 2 years ago, Steve and Polly bought a house. Polly made a big deal about how she was able to afford the house on her income alone. Then my eldest brother Harry tells me that Steve asked to borrow money for the house. I am not sure if it was closing costs or other expenses, but in any case Harry lent an undisclosed amount of money to Steve. Last year Harry confided in me and told me in confidence that Steve had stopped repaying him on the loan and that he (Harry) was upset as Steve had stopped returning calls. Harry is a very good brother of mine. He is the eldest and many years separate us, but he has always been good to me and we share a special bond. Hearing how heartbroken he was crushed me, but he also told me in confidence.
Fast forward to this year. I live nowhere near my family and so I was in town making the rounds. I mentioned to Harry that Polly and I were meeting up. He casually asked me to let Polly know he wanted her to call him. (I can only assume it is about the house repayment but have no proof). So I did just that. I mentioned it in person to her – ‘hey Harry wants you to call him’ and then when I got home a few days later I sent his text he sent me to her which said ‘hey will you let Polly know I want her to contact me.’ Polly replied to me “I contacted Harry (smiley emoji)”. In the meantime, I had been emailing Harry about other things and told him I told Polly to call you, he replied that he had not gotten any message from her.
So… did she lie to me? I don’t know where to place my frustration. I feel heartbroken (again) for Harry and angry (again) at Steve and Polly. When I choose to hang out with Polly, I feel like I am condoning both her and Steve’s actions and that this is hurting Harry. I want Polly to know I’m angry and Steve to know I think he is a jerk (pay your f'n debts) … but I still want a relationship???? I also don’t want to upset Harry by being friends with Polly. So hivemind, what say you?
Back story: I am the youngest girl of a very large Catholic family, so there are many plots and story lines. My parents are both deceased. We are all 40+ in age. I could write series upon series of our lives. It is hard to disentangle from these stories, but this issue has to do with my brother closest in age to me (I’ll call Steve) and my eldest brother (I’ll call Harry).
Steve and I are only one year apart in age. He was very popular in school and girls always tried to be my friend to get to know him. We were never friends growing up and ran in totally different crowds; I didn’t like his friends, he didn’t particularly like mine. I was never jealous of him but rather annoyed that his life impacted mine. After college, one of my closest friends began dating and then married him. More than anything I was annoyed that my friend (I’ll call Polly) married him – I felt like it was a dick move but didn’t want to end the friendship. For the most part Polly and I have remained friends and Steve and I tolerate each other, but I have to admit I am not 100% happy with their partnership and life decisions. I think that Steve is a liar and has no integrity, he consistently lies about money, has declared bankruptcy and takes advantage of people.
About 2 years ago, Steve and Polly bought a house. Polly made a big deal about how she was able to afford the house on her income alone. Then my eldest brother Harry tells me that Steve asked to borrow money for the house. I am not sure if it was closing costs or other expenses, but in any case Harry lent an undisclosed amount of money to Steve. Last year Harry confided in me and told me in confidence that Steve had stopped repaying him on the loan and that he (Harry) was upset as Steve had stopped returning calls. Harry is a very good brother of mine. He is the eldest and many years separate us, but he has always been good to me and we share a special bond. Hearing how heartbroken he was crushed me, but he also told me in confidence.
Fast forward to this year. I live nowhere near my family and so I was in town making the rounds. I mentioned to Harry that Polly and I were meeting up. He casually asked me to let Polly know he wanted her to call him. (I can only assume it is about the house repayment but have no proof). So I did just that. I mentioned it in person to her – ‘hey Harry wants you to call him’ and then when I got home a few days later I sent his text he sent me to her which said ‘hey will you let Polly know I want her to contact me.’ Polly replied to me “I contacted Harry (smiley emoji)”. In the meantime, I had been emailing Harry about other things and told him I told Polly to call you, he replied that he had not gotten any message from her.
So… did she lie to me? I don’t know where to place my frustration. I feel heartbroken (again) for Harry and angry (again) at Steve and Polly. When I choose to hang out with Polly, I feel like I am condoning both her and Steve’s actions and that this is hurting Harry. I want Polly to know I’m angry and Steve to know I think he is a jerk (pay your f'n debts) … but I still want a relationship???? I also don’t want to upset Harry by being friends with Polly. So hivemind, what say you?
Yikes, yeah stay out of this. Nothing here involves you.
posted by Toddles at 8:33 PM on June 25, 2019 [40 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 8:33 PM on June 25, 2019 [40 favorites]
This sounds like a challenging and complicated set of overall dynamics, but with respect to your immediate question, you don't need to be in the middle of this. It's not going to solve Harry's problem (if they wanted to repay him, they know where to find him). It's clear you side with Harry, and it makes sense to say sympathetic things to him. So far, all he has asked is for you to ask her to call him, which you did. You don't have to defriend her, and you can't force her to call him. I'd stay out of this as much as you possibly can. You can decide to stop being their friend if you want, but don't blow up the relationship out of loyalty to Harry. That won't help things and could make them worse.
posted by salvia at 8:35 PM on June 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by salvia at 8:35 PM on June 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
I totally agree with arnicae; don't get in the middle of this. You already let Harry know that you passed on his message to Polly; whether she lied or not is moot. Don't pass on any more messages for anyone. I understand you feel bad for Harry, but you shouldn't involve yourself in their business any further. If Harry wants, he can take Steve to court and settle this, but there's nothing you can do to help.
Just curious -- why did you think it was a dick move of Polly to marry Steve after they had been dating? Is there more to this than you've said?
posted by LuckySeven~ at 8:44 PM on June 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
Just curious -- why did you think it was a dick move of Polly to marry Steve after they had been dating? Is there more to this than you've said?
posted by LuckySeven~ at 8:44 PM on June 25, 2019 [3 favorites]
Harry messed up by loaning money to family in the first place. It's always a bad idea. The three of them made a mistake and if Harry never gets paid back well he made his own bed. His relationship with Polly and Steve is his business and he also messed up by putting you in the middle of it. You should just stay out of the whole thing. It's none of your business.
Furthermore do you even want to be friends with Polly? It seems like you never forgave your friend for marrying your brother (which, also seems strange to me - shouldn't that have been a happy occasion? Your friend becoming your sister?)
Anyway for the sake of family cohesion you can decide to forget any of this happened and encourage everyone to do the same. That's what I'd do.
posted by bleep at 9:08 PM on June 25, 2019 [4 favorites]
Furthermore do you even want to be friends with Polly? It seems like you never forgave your friend for marrying your brother (which, also seems strange to me - shouldn't that have been a happy occasion? Your friend becoming your sister?)
Anyway for the sake of family cohesion you can decide to forget any of this happened and encourage everyone to do the same. That's what I'd do.
posted by bleep at 9:08 PM on June 25, 2019 [4 favorites]
Harry is a grown man who made his own decisions with respect to a younger brother. Unless there is something about this dynamic you haven't mentioned, there is no "oppressor" here. Leave it be.
As a side point, entirely independent of the merits here, the less time you spend with people you don't respect, the better for your own character. I'm not suggesting that you cut Steve or Polly out of your life entirely, but you don't have to go out of your way to spend time with either of them.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 PM on June 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
As a side point, entirely independent of the merits here, the less time you spend with people you don't respect, the better for your own character. I'm not suggesting that you cut Steve or Polly out of your life entirely, but you don't have to go out of your way to spend time with either of them.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 PM on June 25, 2019 [5 favorites]
As far as your involvement, the matter sounds settled. You passed on a message and that’s it. What’s up with getting the ladies involved anyway? If brothers can do money deals together then they can talk it out or get legal advice. If I were Polly, I’d probably go with “polite fiction,” too. It’s not clear to me that she knows of the loan or its stipulations or its current state of repayment. And I don’t think you do either. For your own peace of mind, just put this whole thing out of your mind. If you otherwise like Polly, be a friend, but if you can’t then better to keep your distance.
posted by amanda at 10:07 PM on June 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by amanda at 10:07 PM on June 25, 2019 [6 favorites]
Polly isn't the problem, Steve is. She may not have even known about the loan.
And it was extremely inappropriate for Harry to try to get Polly to call him without going through Steve. What is he going to say to her? -- 'I loaned Steve money for your house but he won't pay it back. Now it's up to you.'
Is he actively trying to break up their marriage, or will that just be an unfortunate side effect of an almost certainly fruitless attempt to get his money back?
If Harry is facing some kind of disaster unless he gets that money, I think it would be appropriate to go to the more prosperous members of your huge family to raise some money to help Harry out -- not loans but an outright gift.
Because I don't think your family realizes how lucky you are that Polly has taken Steve off your hands; if his marriage fails, he will be your problem again, and more angry, embittered, resentful and destructive than you've ever seen him.
posted by jamjam at 11:18 PM on June 25, 2019 [4 favorites]
And it was extremely inappropriate for Harry to try to get Polly to call him without going through Steve. What is he going to say to her? -- 'I loaned Steve money for your house but he won't pay it back. Now it's up to you.'
Is he actively trying to break up their marriage, or will that just be an unfortunate side effect of an almost certainly fruitless attempt to get his money back?
If Harry is facing some kind of disaster unless he gets that money, I think it would be appropriate to go to the more prosperous members of your huge family to raise some money to help Harry out -- not loans but an outright gift.
Because I don't think your family realizes how lucky you are that Polly has taken Steve off your hands; if his marriage fails, he will be your problem again, and more angry, embittered, resentful and destructive than you've ever seen him.
posted by jamjam at 11:18 PM on June 25, 2019 [4 favorites]
Stay as you are and do nothing. Both Harry and Polly have made the good choice of not dumping this on you (although Harry is inching close to the line with the “pass on a message for me”). Either could have said “can you believe X family member is doing ABC!” to make you feel like you need to choose or that you’re condoning someone’s actions—none of these people did that. So go about your business without worrying about this.
It sounds like you’re still holding grudges against Polly and Steve for marrying after all these years. I think it would give you more peace of mind to do whatever you need to do to drop this resentment. Their money problems, irresponsible or not, are not some personal insult to you. I’m from a big Catholic family as well and letting go of grudges can be done, I promise.
posted by sallybrown at 3:29 AM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you’re still holding grudges against Polly and Steve for marrying after all these years. I think it would give you more peace of mind to do whatever you need to do to drop this resentment. Their money problems, irresponsible or not, are not some personal insult to you. I’m from a big Catholic family as well and letting go of grudges can be done, I promise.
posted by sallybrown at 3:29 AM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Let them talk to each other. You have nothing to do with this and don't even have to play messenger. Step out.
posted by Miko at 4:13 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Miko at 4:13 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't think you should get involved in the situation, but I will say that it does sound like you don't like or respect Polly very much (or Steve, but we're clear on that), so the one action you could and maybe should take is to quietly pull back on your friendship with Polly. You don't seem to care a lot for her--I wouldn't make a big thing of it, but I would cool the friendship.
posted by gideonfrog at 4:58 AM on June 26, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by gideonfrog at 4:58 AM on June 26, 2019 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I agree and disagree with other posters in this thread. I see a lot of victim blaming of Harry that I don't agree with. He's harmed by Steve. He didn't choose to be ripped off.
I also think that Polly should know that she has a debt and her ownership of her home may be legally encumbered by that debt. But you are not responsible for letting Polly know about it. You are neither the lender, the lender's agent, nor a process server. Hopefully, there is signed evidence of the debt. If there is, he has a variety of ways to handle the debt, none of which need involve you.
You can't fix the problems that caused this problem. If you don't want to be involved, you don't have to be.
You can tell Harry that you asked Polly to contact him. You aren't responsible to do any more. If he asks again, "No" is a complete sentence as they say. That may damage your relationship with Harry, but that's his choice.
If you want to remain friends with Polly, you can. However, you seem to bring a lot of resentment to the relationship. That's on you. Feeling betrayed because she married him doesn't seem reasonable but we don't have the whole backstory.
To very specifically answer the questions:
Seems likely that Polly lied to you about contacting Harry. If that's a dealbreaker for you, then I guess you can't be friends with her. I don't think you are condoning her/Steve's actions by maintaining a relationship with them. It's Harry's choice about how to react to your relationship to Polly.
posted by jclarkin at 5:35 AM on June 26, 2019
I also think that Polly should know that she has a debt and her ownership of her home may be legally encumbered by that debt. But you are not responsible for letting Polly know about it. You are neither the lender, the lender's agent, nor a process server. Hopefully, there is signed evidence of the debt. If there is, he has a variety of ways to handle the debt, none of which need involve you.
You can't fix the problems that caused this problem. If you don't want to be involved, you don't have to be.
You can tell Harry that you asked Polly to contact him. You aren't responsible to do any more. If he asks again, "No" is a complete sentence as they say. That may damage your relationship with Harry, but that's his choice.
If you want to remain friends with Polly, you can. However, you seem to bring a lot of resentment to the relationship. That's on you. Feeling betrayed because she married him doesn't seem reasonable but we don't have the whole backstory.
To very specifically answer the questions:
Seems likely that Polly lied to you about contacting Harry. If that's a dealbreaker for you, then I guess you can't be friends with her. I don't think you are condoning her/Steve's actions by maintaining a relationship with them. It's Harry's choice about how to react to your relationship to Polly.
posted by jclarkin at 5:35 AM on June 26, 2019
Best answer: From the outside, your feelings don’t make much sense here. Your older brother lent your younger brother money and your younger brother is being a duck about it - that’s between the brothers.
It looks to me like Harry is trying to offload the emotional labour onto you and Polly. It’s interesting to me that you felt like you had to monitor Polly’s behaviour after you passed the message on.
Polly obviously benefitted from the loan and I can see how the “bragging” (since you already resent her it’s a bit hard to tell if this is a bitch eating crackers thing) would be annoying especially in the context of a loan, but it’s still not really your business. I have an in law who brags a lot about all possessions and it’s tiring but it has precisely zero to do with anything...I try to treat it like he’s boring me with details of a hobby.
I would treat her lie like a white lie. She’s being dumb about it but the idea that she has to answer to you about it would actually lead me to lie, in her place.
In short, you are neither the money nor the truth police. I’d just focus on my own joyful life and let those guys work it out.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:36 AM on June 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
It looks to me like Harry is trying to offload the emotional labour onto you and Polly. It’s interesting to me that you felt like you had to monitor Polly’s behaviour after you passed the message on.
Polly obviously benefitted from the loan and I can see how the “bragging” (since you already resent her it’s a bit hard to tell if this is a bitch eating crackers thing) would be annoying especially in the context of a loan, but it’s still not really your business. I have an in law who brags a lot about all possessions and it’s tiring but it has precisely zero to do with anything...I try to treat it like he’s boring me with details of a hobby.
I would treat her lie like a white lie. She’s being dumb about it but the idea that she has to answer to you about it would actually lead me to lie, in her place.
In short, you are neither the money nor the truth police. I’d just focus on my own joyful life and let those guys work it out.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:36 AM on June 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Alternatively you could ignore the “I’m confidence” and just go to Steve and say “hey, heard you’re not fulfilling your side of a loan, what’s up with that?”
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 AM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by warriorqueen at 6:42 AM on June 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
You can't really know other people's thoughts and motivations, you can only control your own behavior. You have been open and honest, as, to the best of your knowledge, Polly is behaving reasonably. Now it seems Polly has been less than honest. I would continue acting as if things are legit,so you could reply saying Huh, weird, he said he hadn't heard from you.
Steve is known to be irresponsible about money; I hope Harry was smart enough to document the loan, so that he may have some legal recourse.
You have some tangles in your feelings. Why was it not okay for your friend to marry your brother? You are judgmental about Polly and Steve, why are you and Polly still friends?
I am from a medium-sized (Catholic, though that's incidental) family, lots of twisted relationships, lies, and manipulation, mostly because our Mom had untreated bi-polar and alcoholism. Therapy helps. I had a big crash in my life that re-opened old wounds, and that family crap is poison. Work on your own stuff, be honest, be a good sister if you can, don't engage in other people's drama. You can be sympathetic to Harry. If Polly lied to you, you can call her on it or not, you can limit the friendship or not. How much energy do you want to put in to this? Family drama will try to pull you in, but you don't have to accept the invitation. Visiting the old home town tends to reive old feelings, but it's the past, they will fade.
posted by theora55 at 6:52 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Steve is known to be irresponsible about money; I hope Harry was smart enough to document the loan, so that he may have some legal recourse.
You have some tangles in your feelings. Why was it not okay for your friend to marry your brother? You are judgmental about Polly and Steve, why are you and Polly still friends?
I am from a medium-sized (Catholic, though that's incidental) family, lots of twisted relationships, lies, and manipulation, mostly because our Mom had untreated bi-polar and alcoholism. Therapy helps. I had a big crash in my life that re-opened old wounds, and that family crap is poison. Work on your own stuff, be honest, be a good sister if you can, don't engage in other people's drama. You can be sympathetic to Harry. If Polly lied to you, you can call her on it or not, you can limit the friendship or not. How much energy do you want to put in to this? Family drama will try to pull you in, but you don't have to accept the invitation. Visiting the old home town tends to reive old feelings, but it's the past, they will fade.
posted by theora55 at 6:52 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think that there are some other possible scenarios here that you are not considering, which are as follows:
Scenario One: Steve is the liar not Polly.
Assume that when you told Polly about Harry's request that Polly contact him, Polly told Steve to contact Harry, since Harry is Steve's brother, Steve is the one who took out the loan, and Polly is not, in fact, Steve's secretary. Steve (the man you say is a chronic liar) lied to Polly and told her that he had spoken to Harry. Polly chose to believe him, and, in your texts, Polly condensed this entire story to "I contacted Harry :)"
Scenario Two: Polly did lie to you, but not because she is inherently dishonest-- because she, like you, feels caught in the middle of a family dispute that is not of her making, and could not see another way out.
Assume that Polly (because her husband, Steve, is a liar) does not know about the loan or is misinformed about the amount and terms involved. When you told Polly to contact Harry, Polly panicked, because Steve has told her that he and Harry have a dispute (that Steve, a liar, has likely painted as Harry's fault) and has told her that he does not want to speak to Harry. Just like you, Polly does not want to get in the middle of this dispute between two brothers. Polly also already knows that you disapprove-- and have ALWAYS disapproved-- of her relationship with your brother, Steve, and therefore does not feel that you are are likely to feel sympathy for her position.
Polly feels that she can't contact Harry because it will make Steve angry. Polly feels that she can't tell you why she can't contact Harry because she feels that will make YOU angry. Polly is caught in the middle of her husband's fight with her in-laws and there is no way she can win; any choice she makes will make someone angry. So she lies and tells you that she has contacted Harry.
Scenario Three: Steve (a liar, who borrows money from friends and family and does not pay it back) is financially abusive toward Polly, and Polly lied to you to cover up the abuse.
Assume that Steve-- who has a history of deceiving family about his finances-- has also been deceiving his wife, not just about this loan, but about MANY financially irresponsible decisions he has made. Assume that he has been taking out multiple loans and/or creating large credit card balances behind Polly's back-- and possibly even going the extra mile to hide this from her by not allowing her to see certain bills, deleting phone messages etc. As a consequence Polly and Steve are in much deeper debt than they have let anyone realize. Polly has only recently realized what a bad financial position he has put her in, and feels trapped, terrified, and embarrassed by Steve's behavior. She feels that, even though Steve is the one who created this financial situation, she will be held responsible for fixing it, and she will be the one people will call stupid for "letting" her husband put her in this spot.
She is especially, especially afraid that you will call her stupid, because you have made it clear since day one that you thought her marrying Steve was a mistake and she feels sure that you continue to hold it against her. So when you ask her to contact Harry, instead of saying, "I'm so sorry-- Steve has ruined us behind my back-- we are deeply in debt and I am barely holding on to our house and he's still spending and I'm drowning and I don't know how I will ever pay off all of these debts, and I know Harry wants the money back from Steve, but honestly I have to prioritize keeping the lights on right now over paying back Steve's debt to Harry," she says, "I contacted Harry :)"
There are other scenarios I can think of too, that involve varying levels of guilt or lack of guilt for Polly, but the point is, you don't know what is going on with Polly, or why she said what she said. And because of your history with Polly, and your negative feelings about her marrying Steve, Polly is unlikely to tell you the whole story even if it exonerates her.
In any case it is not your job-- or Polly's job-- to resolve the dispute between Harry and Steve.
Harry is a responsible adult who is capable of handling this situation himself-- without using multiple other family members as intermediaries to try to get a message through to his brother. The next time that Harry asks you to ask Polly to talk to Steve, you might consider telling Harry that while you are very sympathetic to the situation Steve has put Harry in, if Harry wants to talk to Steve, Harry should find a way to address Steve directly without going through you and Polly.
posted by BlueJae at 6:53 AM on June 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
Scenario One: Steve is the liar not Polly.
Assume that when you told Polly about Harry's request that Polly contact him, Polly told Steve to contact Harry, since Harry is Steve's brother, Steve is the one who took out the loan, and Polly is not, in fact, Steve's secretary. Steve (the man you say is a chronic liar) lied to Polly and told her that he had spoken to Harry. Polly chose to believe him, and, in your texts, Polly condensed this entire story to "I contacted Harry :)"
Scenario Two: Polly did lie to you, but not because she is inherently dishonest-- because she, like you, feels caught in the middle of a family dispute that is not of her making, and could not see another way out.
Assume that Polly (because her husband, Steve, is a liar) does not know about the loan or is misinformed about the amount and terms involved. When you told Polly to contact Harry, Polly panicked, because Steve has told her that he and Harry have a dispute (that Steve, a liar, has likely painted as Harry's fault) and has told her that he does not want to speak to Harry. Just like you, Polly does not want to get in the middle of this dispute between two brothers. Polly also already knows that you disapprove-- and have ALWAYS disapproved-- of her relationship with your brother, Steve, and therefore does not feel that you are are likely to feel sympathy for her position.
Polly feels that she can't contact Harry because it will make Steve angry. Polly feels that she can't tell you why she can't contact Harry because she feels that will make YOU angry. Polly is caught in the middle of her husband's fight with her in-laws and there is no way she can win; any choice she makes will make someone angry. So she lies and tells you that she has contacted Harry.
Scenario Three: Steve (a liar, who borrows money from friends and family and does not pay it back) is financially abusive toward Polly, and Polly lied to you to cover up the abuse.
Assume that Steve-- who has a history of deceiving family about his finances-- has also been deceiving his wife, not just about this loan, but about MANY financially irresponsible decisions he has made. Assume that he has been taking out multiple loans and/or creating large credit card balances behind Polly's back-- and possibly even going the extra mile to hide this from her by not allowing her to see certain bills, deleting phone messages etc. As a consequence Polly and Steve are in much deeper debt than they have let anyone realize. Polly has only recently realized what a bad financial position he has put her in, and feels trapped, terrified, and embarrassed by Steve's behavior. She feels that, even though Steve is the one who created this financial situation, she will be held responsible for fixing it, and she will be the one people will call stupid for "letting" her husband put her in this spot.
She is especially, especially afraid that you will call her stupid, because you have made it clear since day one that you thought her marrying Steve was a mistake and she feels sure that you continue to hold it against her. So when you ask her to contact Harry, instead of saying, "I'm so sorry-- Steve has ruined us behind my back-- we are deeply in debt and I am barely holding on to our house and he's still spending and I'm drowning and I don't know how I will ever pay off all of these debts, and I know Harry wants the money back from Steve, but honestly I have to prioritize keeping the lights on right now over paying back Steve's debt to Harry," she says, "I contacted Harry :)"
There are other scenarios I can think of too, that involve varying levels of guilt or lack of guilt for Polly, but the point is, you don't know what is going on with Polly, or why she said what she said. And because of your history with Polly, and your negative feelings about her marrying Steve, Polly is unlikely to tell you the whole story even if it exonerates her.
In any case it is not your job-- or Polly's job-- to resolve the dispute between Harry and Steve.
Harry is a responsible adult who is capable of handling this situation himself-- without using multiple other family members as intermediaries to try to get a message through to his brother. The next time that Harry asks you to ask Polly to talk to Steve, you might consider telling Harry that while you are very sympathetic to the situation Steve has put Harry in, if Harry wants to talk to Steve, Harry should find a way to address Steve directly without going through you and Polly.
posted by BlueJae at 6:53 AM on June 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
What's happening to you is, I believe, called triangulation, a very common occurrence in families where a dispute between two (or more) people brings in a third party who ostensibly has no skin in the game to help resolve their problems. The upside for either party is that they get to unload a lot of the stress and conflict that's in existence with one another onto this other person, who's possibly going to side with them. The downside for the person in the center of the triangle is that they are called to be a mediator when they really shouldn't be, and it can ruin the relationships you have with those other two.
It's best to extricate yourself from a triangulated position as quickly as possible. A good thing to keep in mind is that adults can fight their own battles, for the most part, and whenever you're brought into a fight that doesn't directly involve you, you can easily be left as collateral damage. It's perfectly okay to stay friends with Polly, to love both your brothers, to have opinions on all three, and to do absolutely zilch to relay communications among them.
posted by xingcat at 7:06 AM on June 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
It's best to extricate yourself from a triangulated position as quickly as possible. A good thing to keep in mind is that adults can fight their own battles, for the most part, and whenever you're brought into a fight that doesn't directly involve you, you can easily be left as collateral damage. It's perfectly okay to stay friends with Polly, to love both your brothers, to have opinions on all three, and to do absolutely zilch to relay communications among them.
posted by xingcat at 7:06 AM on June 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
So, Harry made a mistake. The golden rule of lending money to family and friends is: don't lend them any amount you wouldn't genuinely be happy to give them. Because they wouldn't be asking for the money if they really had a good chance of paying it back, and if it's important to you to get the money back it will likely ruin the relationship.
If Steve isn't paying the money back, it's probably because he's not in a position to do so. Moreover, unless Harry and Steve executed a legal instrument, there is really no way for Harry to make Steve repay him. And, of course, if Harry were to act to make Steve pay him back, it would likely ruin their relationship.
This is all moot insofar as you are concerned. The relationship between Harry and Steve, both personal and financial, is not your responsibility. You listened to Harry express his frustrations with Steve and you passed along a reach-out message for Harry that may or may not be connected to the loan repayment issue. That is more than sufficient for a sister. At this point, if Harry asks you to do anything more, I think you can say with a good conscience that you are aware of the issue and sympathize with Harry's position but are uncomfortable being the go-between with respect to a matter that exists between your brothers and doesn't include you.
There are certainly some occasions in which it could be appropriate and beneficial for a sibling to attempt to bridge the gap between other siblings. But this isn't it.
posted by slkinsey at 7:58 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
If Steve isn't paying the money back, it's probably because he's not in a position to do so. Moreover, unless Harry and Steve executed a legal instrument, there is really no way for Harry to make Steve repay him. And, of course, if Harry were to act to make Steve pay him back, it would likely ruin their relationship.
This is all moot insofar as you are concerned. The relationship between Harry and Steve, both personal and financial, is not your responsibility. You listened to Harry express his frustrations with Steve and you passed along a reach-out message for Harry that may or may not be connected to the loan repayment issue. That is more than sufficient for a sister. At this point, if Harry asks you to do anything more, I think you can say with a good conscience that you are aware of the issue and sympathize with Harry's position but are uncomfortable being the go-between with respect to a matter that exists between your brothers and doesn't include you.
There are certainly some occasions in which it could be appropriate and beneficial for a sibling to attempt to bridge the gap between other siblings. But this isn't it.
posted by slkinsey at 7:58 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
I could (and have) see this happening in my family and I would stay alllllllllllllllllllll the way out of it.
Just politely decline to be in any way the go between. Decline to report any tidbits of news you have or think you have to either party.
Be allergic to this.
posted by French Fry at 9:06 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Just politely decline to be in any way the go between. Decline to report any tidbits of news you have or think you have to either party.
Be allergic to this.
posted by French Fry at 9:06 AM on June 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Scenario Four Polly did contact Harry. She used the e-mail that she last contacted him with six years ago, because it was easy to find, but unfortunately Harry no longer checks that e-mail.
The thing about drama is that once it gets into the picture every little glitch becomes reason for suspicion. If someone is half an hour late they did it on purpose to offend. Or if someone calls you Honey, they are being patronizing. Or if someone serves breadsticks they did it only because they know you are gluten intolerant. But this is the perspective you are going to take when you are already feeling angry and offended. However it's perfectly possible that there is a message on Harry's voice mail giving Polly's current number, but Harry hasn't found it.
What you suspect is that Polly is lying to you, and is evading Harry. This is extremely possible but it absolutely doesn't matter. You already don't trust Polly anymore because she married Steve. You used to like Polly, but you can't possibly really like anyone who marries Steve, until after they divorce him and are no longer teamed up with the bad guy. So maybe she is lying, probably she is lying, but being mad at her for lying, or calling her out on it is not going to help Harry collect on his debt.
I suspect you would like to help Harry collect on his debt, which is why you are upset about all this. You'd like to grab Polly, shake her, and make Steve and Polly stammer apologies and turn over every chunk of available cash they can scrape up, to the point where they are living on bread and peanut butter and nothing else and taking the bus to work for the next six months. But you can't do that. You can only make Polly and Steve stop returning your calls.
Or just possibly you can make Polly very, very upset when she finds out through you that Steve borrowed money behind her back again, and has put her in the situation where she will be fielding calls from collection agencies again. But even doing that is not going to get Harry's money back, because Polly is probably smart enough to realise that if she sells her car, gives the money to Harry as a payment on the debt and takes the bus to work from hereon, Steve will borrow money from Frank and Rebecca too, and she will have made no headway whatsoever on getting her family out of debt.
What you should do, is go on being as friendly with Polly as before, which is to say, not very, and wait and see if Polly will ever talk to Harry. She's almost certainly dreading it, and almost certainly has Steve's version of the situation, but she may or may not do so; if she does it will be because she is willing to communicate with Harry. You can't make her more willing.
What you want to do is help Harry collect on his debt. Wanting and actually being able to help are two different things. You could talk to Harry about ways of getting the debt collection enforced, or think about ways of going to the family and getting them to cough up on Steve's behalf. For example if there is an inheritance coming, perhaps the family would be willing to divert Steve's share to Harry. Not that this is likely, as it is doubtful that there is an aunt with money who was planning on leaving sizeable even shares to all your sibling group and would change that after hearing that Steve has robbed Harry.
Unfortunately there is probably nothing you can do here, and even though you want to help him, it is Harry that has to do the leg work of taking Steve to small claims court. Probably you can't help Harry at all. So instead of helping him with the debt, just help him and show him love and support in any way you can. Take him out for dinner. Help him paint the back bedroom. Loan him your car. Just make sure he knows that he matters to you.
Rather than being negative and attacking Polly or Steve, try and find positive that you can do for Harry. But as much as you can, you could also try to maintain a charitable mindset towards Polly, (even while you do not in anyway try to be supportive to her and her dishonest husband) because it is not impossible that out of everyone in this story, she is the one who is the most unhappy and ashamed and troubled. After all, she has to live with Steve.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:25 PM on June 26, 2019
The thing about drama is that once it gets into the picture every little glitch becomes reason for suspicion. If someone is half an hour late they did it on purpose to offend. Or if someone calls you Honey, they are being patronizing. Or if someone serves breadsticks they did it only because they know you are gluten intolerant. But this is the perspective you are going to take when you are already feeling angry and offended. However it's perfectly possible that there is a message on Harry's voice mail giving Polly's current number, but Harry hasn't found it.
What you suspect is that Polly is lying to you, and is evading Harry. This is extremely possible but it absolutely doesn't matter. You already don't trust Polly anymore because she married Steve. You used to like Polly, but you can't possibly really like anyone who marries Steve, until after they divorce him and are no longer teamed up with the bad guy. So maybe she is lying, probably she is lying, but being mad at her for lying, or calling her out on it is not going to help Harry collect on his debt.
I suspect you would like to help Harry collect on his debt, which is why you are upset about all this. You'd like to grab Polly, shake her, and make Steve and Polly stammer apologies and turn over every chunk of available cash they can scrape up, to the point where they are living on bread and peanut butter and nothing else and taking the bus to work for the next six months. But you can't do that. You can only make Polly and Steve stop returning your calls.
Or just possibly you can make Polly very, very upset when she finds out through you that Steve borrowed money behind her back again, and has put her in the situation where she will be fielding calls from collection agencies again. But even doing that is not going to get Harry's money back, because Polly is probably smart enough to realise that if she sells her car, gives the money to Harry as a payment on the debt and takes the bus to work from hereon, Steve will borrow money from Frank and Rebecca too, and she will have made no headway whatsoever on getting her family out of debt.
What you should do, is go on being as friendly with Polly as before, which is to say, not very, and wait and see if Polly will ever talk to Harry. She's almost certainly dreading it, and almost certainly has Steve's version of the situation, but she may or may not do so; if she does it will be because she is willing to communicate with Harry. You can't make her more willing.
What you want to do is help Harry collect on his debt. Wanting and actually being able to help are two different things. You could talk to Harry about ways of getting the debt collection enforced, or think about ways of going to the family and getting them to cough up on Steve's behalf. For example if there is an inheritance coming, perhaps the family would be willing to divert Steve's share to Harry. Not that this is likely, as it is doubtful that there is an aunt with money who was planning on leaving sizeable even shares to all your sibling group and would change that after hearing that Steve has robbed Harry.
Unfortunately there is probably nothing you can do here, and even though you want to help him, it is Harry that has to do the leg work of taking Steve to small claims court. Probably you can't help Harry at all. So instead of helping him with the debt, just help him and show him love and support in any way you can. Take him out for dinner. Help him paint the back bedroom. Loan him your car. Just make sure he knows that he matters to you.
Rather than being negative and attacking Polly or Steve, try and find positive that you can do for Harry. But as much as you can, you could also try to maintain a charitable mindset towards Polly, (even while you do not in anyway try to be supportive to her and her dishonest husband) because it is not impossible that out of everyone in this story, she is the one who is the most unhappy and ashamed and troubled. After all, she has to live with Steve.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:25 PM on June 26, 2019
Scenario five - if Polly messaged Harry on Facebook messenger and they're not friends it may have gone into a hidden folder without notifying him. He should be sure to check message requests if this is the case!
posted by Mistress at 5:33 PM on June 26, 2019
posted by Mistress at 5:33 PM on June 26, 2019
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posted by arnicae at 8:30 PM on June 25, 2019 [19 favorites]