How do people identify themselves in countries without ID cards?
June 21, 2019 1:07 PM Subscribe
I am from a country (UK) in which people don't get issued ID cards. People from countries that do have ID cards are often shocked by this and ask me how people identify themselves, and to be honest I don't really know...
In some countries everyone is issued with an ID card which you use to identify yourself to the police, I suppose for things like getting married, when checking into hotels, and so on.
In the UK we don't have ID cards. I suppose we have passports and driving licences etc. but not everybody does. So if for example you get arrested, how do you prove your identity to the police? What if you don't have a passport or driving licence? Do the police just have to take your word for it?
In some countries everyone is issued with an ID card which you use to identify yourself to the police, I suppose for things like getting married, when checking into hotels, and so on.
In the UK we don't have ID cards. I suppose we have passports and driving licences etc. but not everybody does. So if for example you get arrested, how do you prove your identity to the police? What if you don't have a passport or driving licence? Do the police just have to take your word for it?
For those of us in the US, I remember being fingerprinted when I was in grade (primary) school in the late 80s/early 90s. So for those of us who were too young to have a driver's license and didn't have any other forms of ID that we would carry around with us (a child is not walking around with a birth certificate or social security card for sure!) I would assume the fingerprints would have been enough. I have no idea how widespread that practice was or is. It was likely instituted to help solve cases in crimes against children, but then that also means our fingerprints are already in the database when we become adults.
Edited to clarify: everyone in my class was fingerprinted. Police officers were there to do it.
posted by acidnova at 1:23 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Edited to clarify: everyone in my class was fingerprinted. Police officers were there to do it.
posted by acidnova at 1:23 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Canadians don't need ID unless driving. This goes back to the old common law principle that a person is identified on his own recognizance, although Canada's been inching away from this, particularly in that now you have to show ID to vote, whereas you used to just show up and give your name and address.
In Quebec, people who don't drive usually still have a socialized medicine card (it used to be commonly called the carte soleil, but the more recent version no longer has a sun on it, and looks more like the driver's licence). This often gets pressed into use for ID.
posted by zadcat at 1:28 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
In Quebec, people who don't drive usually still have a socialized medicine card (it used to be commonly called the carte soleil, but the more recent version no longer has a sun on it, and looks more like the driver's licence). This often gets pressed into use for ID.
posted by zadcat at 1:28 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
When I went to apply for my first driver's learning permit (US, New York) one of my forms of ID was, "Here is my mother who will vouch for me."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:28 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:28 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
To clarify a few points made above, the US rules vary state-by-state but the only national level photo ID documents are passports and passport cards.
In much of the country you aren't really able to do anything without a driver's license (these are increasingly standardized across the states, but they still aren't remotely uniform), so that is the de facto ID card in most regions of the US.
A number of states, prominently California, have their own ID requirements such that anyone who doesn't have a driver's license must still carry a photo ID. There are rules about lying to the police, and while there is no federal requirement to carry identification, many states have stop-and-identify rules that let the police demand your truthful identity and put you in custody if you can't provide it (generally only if they're prepared to accuse you of something, but in practice in most places that means *always*).
posted by aspersioncast at 1:29 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
In much of the country you aren't really able to do anything without a driver's license (these are increasingly standardized across the states, but they still aren't remotely uniform), so that is the de facto ID card in most regions of the US.
A number of states, prominently California, have their own ID requirements such that anyone who doesn't have a driver's license must still carry a photo ID. There are rules about lying to the police, and while there is no federal requirement to carry identification, many states have stop-and-identify rules that let the police demand your truthful identity and put you in custody if you can't provide it (generally only if they're prepared to accuse you of something, but in practice in most places that means *always*).
posted by aspersioncast at 1:29 PM on June 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Best answer: UK here, essentially, it's almost always a driving licence. For some non-age related stuff, you can use credit or debit cards with your name on it or student ID. I seem to remember there is also an actual ID card you can apply for to use as ID, if you want to (citizen card I think?). Everyone I know either has a) a driving licence or b) a provisional driving licence to use as ID for everyday stuff, even if they don't drive at all.
For getting married, I think a passport is basically mandatory since they require "proof of nationality." Everyone I know has at least one passport even if it's expired, but nobody I know actually carries one about with them because they're expensive and a pain-in-the ass to replace. They're really just for weddings and travel for most people, not carried about as ID just in case.
The majority of people these days have some card with their name on in their wallet. I am sure there are some people who don't have any ID at all, including a debit card, the police just have to take their word for it.
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
For getting married, I think a passport is basically mandatory since they require "proof of nationality." Everyone I know has at least one passport even if it's expired, but nobody I know actually carries one about with them because they're expensive and a pain-in-the ass to replace. They're really just for weddings and travel for most people, not carried about as ID just in case.
The majority of people these days have some card with their name on in their wallet. I am sure there are some people who don't have any ID at all, including a debit card, the police just have to take their word for it.
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:31 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Yeah, in NZ to do anything official you need some form of government photo ID. That's why even people who don't drive will still get their learners as it's the easiest way to achieve this. We have something called an 18+ card but I don't know a single person with one.
You can use your birth certificate for some things, proof of address (letter from the bank etc.) for stuff like getting into the museum for free (woo!). I assume the police might look at your eftpos cards etc. in your wallet and go from there?
posted by BeeJiddy at 2:00 PM on June 21, 2019
You can use your birth certificate for some things, proof of address (letter from the bank etc.) for stuff like getting into the museum for free (woo!). I assume the police might look at your eftpos cards etc. in your wallet and go from there?
posted by BeeJiddy at 2:00 PM on June 21, 2019
UK
Old school: birth certificate, marriage certificate.
Lightweight, current: credit/debit card, drivers licence.
Without a passport, really old school: child benefit book, rent book, Co-op card, NI card, Post Office Card, Girobank card ....
Contemporary, most ID uses: passport
posted by glasseyes at 2:01 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Old school: birth certificate, marriage certificate.
Lightweight, current: credit/debit card, drivers licence.
Without a passport, really old school: child benefit book, rent book, Co-op card, NI card, Post Office Card, Girobank card ....
Contemporary, most ID uses: passport
posted by glasseyes at 2:01 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
A number of states, prominently California, have their own ID requirements such that anyone who doesn't have a driver's license must still carry a photo ID. ... many states have stop-and-identify rules that let the police demand your truthful identity and put you in custody if you can't provide it
Stop-and-identify absolutely, 100% does not mean that you can be arrested simply for not carrying an ID. The one law that appeared to impose a requirement of carrying ID (a CA statute) was overturned for vagueness by the Supreme Court in Kolender v. Lawson in 1983. While the exact contours of permissible stop-and-identify statutes remain a little vague, they definitely concern what information you must give (i.e., name and address only, or destination, or reason for being there) and do not impose requirements (as interpreted) to carry verifying documents.
posted by praemunire at 2:01 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
Stop-and-identify absolutely, 100% does not mean that you can be arrested simply for not carrying an ID. The one law that appeared to impose a requirement of carrying ID (a CA statute) was overturned for vagueness by the Supreme Court in Kolender v. Lawson in 1983. While the exact contours of permissible stop-and-identify statutes remain a little vague, they definitely concern what information you must give (i.e., name and address only, or destination, or reason for being there) and do not impose requirements (as interpreted) to carry verifying documents.
posted by praemunire at 2:01 PM on June 21, 2019 [5 favorites]
Some (extremely) intricate details on best practice for ID verification in the UK.
Seems that, since National Registration was repealed in 1952, the onus has been on individual bodies to set their own standards of proof.
I can't find any specific info on a UK arrest ID check in the absence of a passport, driving license, bank cards etc. At a guess document ID proof would ultimately fall back to a birth certificate.
Bear in mind that a check can be done to test information that's suspected to be false as well as verify information that's presented as true - i.e. does the full name / dob / place of birth provided by a suspect match any passport / driving license / birth certificate records.
posted by protorp at 2:02 PM on June 21, 2019
Seems that, since National Registration was repealed in 1952, the onus has been on individual bodies to set their own standards of proof.
I can't find any specific info on a UK arrest ID check in the absence of a passport, driving license, bank cards etc. At a guess document ID proof would ultimately fall back to a birth certificate.
Bear in mind that a check can be done to test information that's suspected to be false as well as verify information that's presented as true - i.e. does the full name / dob / place of birth provided by a suspect match any passport / driving license / birth certificate records.
posted by protorp at 2:02 PM on June 21, 2019
I am in Ontario, Canada, where we don't have national ID cards. When clients come in to my office I will get 2 pieces of ID from them. One of them will be a government issued photo ID such as a passport, citizenship card, permanent resident card, driver's licence, or provincial photo ID card (a non-mandatory card which is basically a driver's licence for people who don't have driver's licences and you can only get it if you don't have a driver's licence). The other will be a lot more flexible and could be a second photo ID, a credit card or bank card with their name on it, SIN card, or a student or employer card.
If I was walking and was stopped by the police I wouldn't have to show them any ID. If we get to the point that they've arrested me for something then I'm going to the police station regardless and at that point if I truly didn't have ID then I'd have to get some critical mass of people who knew me to satisfy the police that I was who I was claiming to be.
I lived in Japan for a while and over there I was supposed to keep my ID card with me at all times. It was a minor stress because even if I was going out for a run I would take it with me just in case I was stopped.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:22 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
If I was walking and was stopped by the police I wouldn't have to show them any ID. If we get to the point that they've arrested me for something then I'm going to the police station regardless and at that point if I truly didn't have ID then I'd have to get some critical mass of people who knew me to satisfy the police that I was who I was claiming to be.
I lived in Japan for a while and over there I was supposed to keep my ID card with me at all times. It was a minor stress because even if I was going out for a run I would take it with me just in case I was stopped.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:22 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
Kids in the US were fingerprinted in the 80s and 90s because of the panic over child kidnapping that existed then. This did not occur for earlier generations and was not related to a general need for identification.
posted by FencingGal at 3:11 PM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 3:11 PM on June 21, 2019 [10 favorites]
In Australia, similar to what BeeJiddy says about NZ, a driver's license is the most commonly used form of photo ID. In order to enter any licensed (alcohol selling) venue you need government issued photo ID, so most people get a driver's license or 18+ photo card (if they can't get a driver's license for some reason). A Medicare card is also a common form of ID, but doesn't have a photo on it, and can't be used for age verification.
For verifying identity, a "points" system is commonly employed where you need to produce 100 points of ID - a passport, driver's license or photo card is 70 points, with a Medicare card, credit/debit card, birth certificate and similar 30 points. The 100 point check usually requires at least one piece that has a photo.
posted by cholly at 4:11 PM on June 21, 2019
For verifying identity, a "points" system is commonly employed where you need to produce 100 points of ID - a passport, driver's license or photo card is 70 points, with a Medicare card, credit/debit card, birth certificate and similar 30 points. The 100 point check usually requires at least one piece that has a photo.
posted by cholly at 4:11 PM on June 21, 2019
My partner does not have a driving licence or passport. For identification it's usually 3 documents, including birth certificate plus official correspondence (eg council tax letter, bank statement).
I don't know about if someone is arrested, but this man's story suggests that ID verification is definitely not foolproof.
posted by plonkee at 4:13 PM on June 21, 2019
I don't know about if someone is arrested, but this man's story suggests that ID verification is definitely not foolproof.
posted by plonkee at 4:13 PM on June 21, 2019
An important special case of needing ID is for voting. Many democracies function just fine without any sort of voter ID.
In the US, in most jurisdictions all you need to vote is to be registered and then present yourself at the polling place. You tell them who you are, they believe you, and you vote. It sounds a little strange to people with strict ID systems but it seems to work very; voter fraud by impersonation is pretty much unheard of in the US. Sometimes a politician will suggest requiring ID to vote. In every case I know of these voter ID laws are nakedly partisan and often racist. ACLU has more context on voter ID including some statistics; 11% of US citizens don't have photo ID.
In other countries without ID like India the fact you voted is recorded by making a mark on the person with election ink, such as dipping the finger in purple ink. This prevents double voting; it's not so much a form of ID as it is a marker that you have voted. The mark lasts a few days, hopefully the length of the election.
posted by Nelson at 4:16 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
In the US, in most jurisdictions all you need to vote is to be registered and then present yourself at the polling place. You tell them who you are, they believe you, and you vote. It sounds a little strange to people with strict ID systems but it seems to work very; voter fraud by impersonation is pretty much unheard of in the US. Sometimes a politician will suggest requiring ID to vote. In every case I know of these voter ID laws are nakedly partisan and often racist. ACLU has more context on voter ID including some statistics; 11% of US citizens don't have photo ID.
In other countries without ID like India the fact you voted is recorded by making a mark on the person with election ink, such as dipping the finger in purple ink. This prevents double voting; it's not so much a form of ID as it is a marker that you have voted. The mark lasts a few days, hopefully the length of the election.
posted by Nelson at 4:16 PM on June 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
In much of the country you aren't really able to do anything without a driver's license (these are increasingly standardized across the states, but they still aren't remotely uniform)
This is less true these with the REAL ID stuff coming online, all the various states are starting to follow the same set of standards.
Although right now (well in Oct 2020) the only restriction on states not getting on board with it are that you can't get on an airplane with just a non-REAL ID form of identification.
posted by sideshow at 4:29 PM on June 21, 2019
This is less true these with the REAL ID stuff coming online, all the various states are starting to follow the same set of standards.
Although right now (well in Oct 2020) the only restriction on states not getting on board with it are that you can't get on an airplane with just a non-REAL ID form of identification.
posted by sideshow at 4:29 PM on June 21, 2019
REAL ID is what I meant by increasingly standardized actually.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:43 PM on June 21, 2019
posted by aspersioncast at 4:43 PM on June 21, 2019
> if for example you get arrested, how do you prove your identity to the police?
You beg the question here. Why should it be the case that a person must prove their identity to the police? It goes against the presumption of innocence and the privacy of the individual. If the police have good reason to stop you, that reason should be independent of your presence or absence on some central database of ID numbers.
ID cards have been resisted in the UK (so far) because they lead to authoritarianism and the idea that citizens have to prove something to the authorities in order to go about their day to day lives.
https://www.no2id.net
posted by richb at 5:10 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
You beg the question here. Why should it be the case that a person must prove their identity to the police? It goes against the presumption of innocence and the privacy of the individual. If the police have good reason to stop you, that reason should be independent of your presence or absence on some central database of ID numbers.
ID cards have been resisted in the UK (so far) because they lead to authoritarianism and the idea that citizens have to prove something to the authorities in order to go about their day to day lives.
https://www.no2id.net
posted by richb at 5:10 PM on June 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don't have to show ID to vote in New York, but I do have to sign in a book next to the signature they have on file.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:39 PM on June 21, 2019
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:39 PM on June 21, 2019
I am not sure if OP is mainly interested in ID and arrest by police, or the more general question.
But briefly I will add that for a while there (here in the USA) I was being asked by doctor's offices to let them scan my driver's license. I said I was willing to let them see it, compare it to my face and name/address and if absolutely necessary photocopy it, but digitally scan it, no. Usually it went to the office manager when I continued to refuse, they asked why, I said identity theft, then the office manager said it just meant I wouldn't be able to get pain meds and they waived the requirement.
posted by forthright at 5:58 PM on June 21, 2019
But briefly I will add that for a while there (here in the USA) I was being asked by doctor's offices to let them scan my driver's license. I said I was willing to let them see it, compare it to my face and name/address and if absolutely necessary photocopy it, but digitally scan it, no. Usually it went to the office manager when I continued to refuse, they asked why, I said identity theft, then the office manager said it just meant I wouldn't be able to get pain meds and they waived the requirement.
posted by forthright at 5:58 PM on June 21, 2019
In the U.S., the ID is almost always a driver's license, to the point where people inspecting and issuing (!) ID are unaware of alternatives.
The first time I tried to get a state-issued ID, some state employee told me that he could issue me a driver's license if I met the criteria for licensure, or I could go apply to the county for a non-driver's ID. He was apparently unaware that the state issued non-driver ID.
So I got a county-issued non-driver's ID, which looked like I had printed it out on a $50 inkjet from Office Depot because the county clerk had printed it out on a $50 inkjet from Office Depot. It had a smudged fingerprint where he took it out of the printer too early. The TSA let me onto airplanes with that for years, including after 9/11.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:04 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
The first time I tried to get a state-issued ID, some state employee told me that he could issue me a driver's license if I met the criteria for licensure, or I could go apply to the county for a non-driver's ID. He was apparently unaware that the state issued non-driver ID.
So I got a county-issued non-driver's ID, which looked like I had printed it out on a $50 inkjet from Office Depot because the county clerk had printed it out on a $50 inkjet from Office Depot. It had a smudged fingerprint where he took it out of the printer too early. The TSA let me onto airplanes with that for years, including after 9/11.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:04 PM on June 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
In the U.S., the ID is almost always a driver's license, to the point where people inspecting and issuing (!) ID are unaware of alternatives.
I think the DMV in every state will give you either.
Massachusetts's isn't even called a state ID, but rather a Liquor ID. Yep, that's (at least of a few years ago) printed proudly at the top of every Massachusetts state non-driver ID. Keeps it classy.
posted by praemunire at 12:35 AM on June 22, 2019
I think the DMV in every state will give you either.
Massachusetts's isn't even called a state ID, but rather a Liquor ID. Yep, that's (at least of a few years ago) printed proudly at the top of every Massachusetts state non-driver ID. Keeps it classy.
posted by praemunire at 12:35 AM on June 22, 2019
Here in Denmark you don't have to carry any ID, but you need ID for a few things, like buying tobacco or alcohol, opening a bank account. Kids use their student ID until they get a drivers license. I guess people who never get a drivers license carry their passports around.
If you are stopped by the police while walking or riding your bike, they can ask for your ID, but you don't have to hand it over. I live in an area where the police are sometimes given extra powers because of gang violence, and I just checked: even in these areas, which are limited in time and space, you are not obliged to carry any ID. (But it can be smart).
TBH, I spent a lot of time in Germany once, and I always found the ID requirement very uncomfortable. I was surprised by myself over it.
posted by mumimor at 4:02 AM on June 22, 2019
If you are stopped by the police while walking or riding your bike, they can ask for your ID, but you don't have to hand it over. I live in an area where the police are sometimes given extra powers because of gang violence, and I just checked: even in these areas, which are limited in time and space, you are not obliged to carry any ID. (But it can be smart).
TBH, I spent a lot of time in Germany once, and I always found the ID requirement very uncomfortable. I was surprised by myself over it.
posted by mumimor at 4:02 AM on June 22, 2019
As a British non-driver I actually do carry my passport around with me (safely zipped into an inside pocket of my handbag, along with my £6k train season ticket and my work ID). It's a hangover from living abroad and being required by law to carry it, but it's sometimes been useful.
Because it doesn't have my address on it, I also have to maintain constant vigilance to make sure at least some of my utility bills and bank statements get sent to me on paper. Everyone wants you to go paperless nowadays... except the people demanding multiple original-document proofs of identity and address.
Like winterhill, I wish we could just have ID cards.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:46 AM on June 22, 2019
Because it doesn't have my address on it, I also have to maintain constant vigilance to make sure at least some of my utility bills and bank statements get sent to me on paper. Everyone wants you to go paperless nowadays... except the people demanding multiple original-document proofs of identity and address.
Like winterhill, I wish we could just have ID cards.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:46 AM on June 22, 2019
A partial answer is that systems are devised that don't require ID. If I hire a boat or a bike in the local park, I leave a cash deposit. If I book into a hotel, they take a pre-authorisation swipe of a credit card. Rather than the system being "we need ID so that if it all goes wrong, we can take the person responsible to court" it works along the lines of "if it all goes wrong, we have the money anyway so it doesn't matter".
posted by Jabberwocky at 7:41 AM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Jabberwocky at 7:41 AM on June 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
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People who are arrested and booked are fingerprinted, but I suppose if you had no identification on you and it was your first time it would be difficult to prove your identity.
posted by OrangeVelour at 1:22 PM on June 21, 2019