Help me figure out what to do with my dad now that my mom has passed.
June 13, 2019 8:41 AM Subscribe
My dad and I have had a turbulent relationship for years. My mom died a few weeks ago. He is struggling and asking for more of me than I am able to provide. Help me with strategy and tactics, please!
My mom died at the end of May, after a year battling pancreatic cancer. My relationship with my dad has been tenuous for a half decade or so, and particularly poor since last summer. The family are trying to work to organize her celebration of life service next month, and Dad is being very needy in a way that is inappropriate to the way that our relationship has been for at least a year. I’m struggling to know how to handle these demands.
Context: My two biggest problems with him are: he makes women in and around my family physically uncomfortable and he centers his own needs and feelings, especially in relation to my dying mom over the last year. There are some other issues with him, but those are the two biggest insofar as I’m concerned. The precipitating incident for our current chilly level of interaction was when I confronted him about the way that he makes my partner feel when he interacts with her, last summer. This conversation was unpleasant and my concerns were not really heard, but the conversation did create a new paradigm of not touching my partner, so that was a kind of success. There was another incident at my civil wedding ceremony last fall, where he told a highly inappropriate story about a regretful missed connection sort of encounter with an old flame, to a group of basically our closest family, on my wedding day. The story occurred at a high school reunion that would have been when I was a young baby at home with my mom. Later in the evening I told him privately that if he ever disrespected me and my mom in that way again, I’d knock him down. He said, “You’re fucking crazy” and that was pretty much that. We haven’t spoken regularly since then; I’ve been in town often to visit my mom, and as she got sicker I have had to interact with him more. He is a ‘time heals all wounds’ sort of person and doesn’t really change behavior or make amends, just waits around for things to fall back into a pattern that works for him, and I think that is what he is expecting in this case. As my mom became too sick to be my main point of contact, and I had to interact with him more, he thought that this approach was working, I think. Most of the women in and around our family have complained to me privately about his behavior, but women in and around the family are skilled at flattering him and deflecting him and he would be utterly shocked to learn what they really think of him, I think. So, he doesn’t really understand what people think of him, and thinks that I (and my partner) are difficult and inscrutable because I am the only person in the family who takes issue with his behavior. The women in the family flatter him; my brother completely checks out from him; my uncles are sales guys and are skilled at navigating unpleasant situations and people in an emotionally disconnected way.
When I was home immediately after my mom’s death, he threw a petulant temper tantrum when I organized the family as a group together to write my mom’s obit. He had been saying that the smallest tasks were seeming so hard and I was just trying to make sure that the things that needed to get done, got done. He didn’t use his words about this; when we started working on the obit, he stomped around and literally pouted in the corner, sulking. No one paid attention to him, half a dozen family members working together on the obit, until he eventually interrupted us with "Why am I not being involved in any of this?" He said a bunch of stuff about how he didn’t feel welcome helping us; how he had already started writing his own obit, just flailing his feelings around, as though the rest of us hadn’t also lost a beloved family member. His anger was centered on me: he was looking for me to apologize? Or, at the least, he wanted me to make sympathetic noises about all of his important feelings. My aunt placated him and flattered him while the rest of us stared into space. This happened right before I left town and we didn’t resolve things before I left to any degree whatsoever.
Anyway, here is a screenshot of the text exchange that prompted this question, our first communication since I left town (Claire is my partner). I have no idea how to respond to this text message. I’m frustrated that my attempt to deflect his neediness by complimenting my partner has failed, resulting in a doubling down on an attempt to get me to center and validate his feelings. I’ll be discussing the whole thing with a therapist, but what should I do here? What I would like to have is a pleasant, distant relationship with him that featured him standing on his own two feet. But, I don’t feel much love for him, and I certainly won’t be providing the kind of emotional validation that my mom provided for forty years. I loved my mom and I miss her, but I’m comfortable with no relationship at all with him-I don’t want or need anything from him, if it comes to that. Strategically and tactically, I’m not sure how to proceed. I guess I’ve landed on saying nothing, since it’s now been more than a day. I feel like I’m sending all the “I’m not the person for this, look elsewhere” signals and they are not being picked up. Thanks!
My mom died at the end of May, after a year battling pancreatic cancer. My relationship with my dad has been tenuous for a half decade or so, and particularly poor since last summer. The family are trying to work to organize her celebration of life service next month, and Dad is being very needy in a way that is inappropriate to the way that our relationship has been for at least a year. I’m struggling to know how to handle these demands.
Context: My two biggest problems with him are: he makes women in and around my family physically uncomfortable and he centers his own needs and feelings, especially in relation to my dying mom over the last year. There are some other issues with him, but those are the two biggest insofar as I’m concerned. The precipitating incident for our current chilly level of interaction was when I confronted him about the way that he makes my partner feel when he interacts with her, last summer. This conversation was unpleasant and my concerns were not really heard, but the conversation did create a new paradigm of not touching my partner, so that was a kind of success. There was another incident at my civil wedding ceremony last fall, where he told a highly inappropriate story about a regretful missed connection sort of encounter with an old flame, to a group of basically our closest family, on my wedding day. The story occurred at a high school reunion that would have been when I was a young baby at home with my mom. Later in the evening I told him privately that if he ever disrespected me and my mom in that way again, I’d knock him down. He said, “You’re fucking crazy” and that was pretty much that. We haven’t spoken regularly since then; I’ve been in town often to visit my mom, and as she got sicker I have had to interact with him more. He is a ‘time heals all wounds’ sort of person and doesn’t really change behavior or make amends, just waits around for things to fall back into a pattern that works for him, and I think that is what he is expecting in this case. As my mom became too sick to be my main point of contact, and I had to interact with him more, he thought that this approach was working, I think. Most of the women in and around our family have complained to me privately about his behavior, but women in and around the family are skilled at flattering him and deflecting him and he would be utterly shocked to learn what they really think of him, I think. So, he doesn’t really understand what people think of him, and thinks that I (and my partner) are difficult and inscrutable because I am the only person in the family who takes issue with his behavior. The women in the family flatter him; my brother completely checks out from him; my uncles are sales guys and are skilled at navigating unpleasant situations and people in an emotionally disconnected way.
When I was home immediately after my mom’s death, he threw a petulant temper tantrum when I organized the family as a group together to write my mom’s obit. He had been saying that the smallest tasks were seeming so hard and I was just trying to make sure that the things that needed to get done, got done. He didn’t use his words about this; when we started working on the obit, he stomped around and literally pouted in the corner, sulking. No one paid attention to him, half a dozen family members working together on the obit, until he eventually interrupted us with "Why am I not being involved in any of this?" He said a bunch of stuff about how he didn’t feel welcome helping us; how he had already started writing his own obit, just flailing his feelings around, as though the rest of us hadn’t also lost a beloved family member. His anger was centered on me: he was looking for me to apologize? Or, at the least, he wanted me to make sympathetic noises about all of his important feelings. My aunt placated him and flattered him while the rest of us stared into space. This happened right before I left town and we didn’t resolve things before I left to any degree whatsoever.
Anyway, here is a screenshot of the text exchange that prompted this question, our first communication since I left town (Claire is my partner). I have no idea how to respond to this text message. I’m frustrated that my attempt to deflect his neediness by complimenting my partner has failed, resulting in a doubling down on an attempt to get me to center and validate his feelings. I’ll be discussing the whole thing with a therapist, but what should I do here? What I would like to have is a pleasant, distant relationship with him that featured him standing on his own two feet. But, I don’t feel much love for him, and I certainly won’t be providing the kind of emotional validation that my mom provided for forty years. I loved my mom and I miss her, but I’m comfortable with no relationship at all with him-I don’t want or need anything from him, if it comes to that. Strategically and tactically, I’m not sure how to proceed. I guess I’ve landed on saying nothing, since it’s now been more than a day. I feel like I’m sending all the “I’m not the person for this, look elsewhere” signals and they are not being picked up. Thanks!
I have no idea how to respond to this text message.
Why would you respond to that second text message? There's nothing else to say. He wanted to "share," he "shared," now it's done. Later on, he was trying to pick some dumb fight at 8:30 at night because he wants some social interaction but is terrible at interacting. You don't have to respond to the "bid for attention" (or in other words, you don't have to take the bait).
Personally, I would change the subject to something else that you need to discuss with him, and if there's nothing else you need to discuss, I would just leave it until there is.
Or, if I were feeling like an asshole and did want to egg him on a little, I might respond with the blandest possible thing, like maybe just "Yup."
You need to get comfortable brushing him off. He can bait you but he can't make you respond. Are there logistical issues that he needs you to take over? Like can he manage his finances and the house, or does he need to move to assisted living or anything?
posted by rue72 at 9:04 AM on June 13, 2019 [23 favorites]
Why would you respond to that second text message? There's nothing else to say. He wanted to "share," he "shared," now it's done. Later on, he was trying to pick some dumb fight at 8:30 at night because he wants some social interaction but is terrible at interacting. You don't have to respond to the "bid for attention" (or in other words, you don't have to take the bait).
Personally, I would change the subject to something else that you need to discuss with him, and if there's nothing else you need to discuss, I would just leave it until there is.
Or, if I were feeling like an asshole and did want to egg him on a little, I might respond with the blandest possible thing, like maybe just "Yup."
You need to get comfortable brushing him off. He can bait you but he can't make you respond. Are there logistical issues that he needs you to take over? Like can he manage his finances and the house, or does he need to move to assisted living or anything?
posted by rue72 at 9:04 AM on June 13, 2019 [23 favorites]
Your father seems uninterested in changing or even recognizing his problems with boundaries and narcissism, so you're likely left with the slow fade being the best option. That means not responding to texts like this and also just addressing logistical matters and leaving the rest hanging. I'm sorry for your loss.
posted by quince at 9:07 AM on June 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by quince at 9:07 AM on June 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
He seems a garden variety narcisst and an oaf. But the text exchanve was an attempt at polite behavior, so I would reward that with diffuse thanks, and a wish that he is getting along OK. Not much more.
He has lost everything, because your mom was the anchor in the situation. Now he has to get on with it. Is he old or is he mid fifites, mid sixties, mid seventies? If he is not too old he will find a new anchor. You can be as far away as you want.
posted by Oyéah at 9:09 AM on June 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
He has lost everything, because your mom was the anchor in the situation. Now he has to get on with it. Is he old or is he mid fifites, mid sixties, mid seventies? If he is not too old he will find a new anchor. You can be as far away as you want.
posted by Oyéah at 9:09 AM on June 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
You have done an excellent job of describing the dynamic with your father - I really recognize similar relationships in my and my wife's lives, and they are so difficult and time-consuming and exhausting to deal with. Overall, I think you're spot on with your instincts to withdraw and redirect. You're standing up for your partner and women in general, you're handling what needs to be handled, and you're working on minimizing contact.
My advice to you is: just for right now, cut him some slack and recognize that he is grieving too. He has lost his life partner just as much as you have lost your mother, regardless of what their relationship was like.
For example, I can see how he could feel left out and miffed by you 'swooping in' and taking over the obit process. His telling you that it was difficult wasn't necessarily saying that he didn't want to do it. Remember that he is already feeling off balance in his position in the world. I'm not saying you did anything wrong - quite the opposite - but I can see how that could make him feel unappreciated and vulnerable.
Re the texts, you don't actually have to respond anything. But you do have an opportunity to simply say 'thank you for telling me how much her help meant to you - I'm glad and I'll be sure to tell her.' It doesn't commit you to anything, but it acknowledges his message in a positive way without pandering.
You have the rest of his life to work on establishing the boundaries you desire, and I think you're doing great. I just think that right now, so soon after his loss, is a time to try to remember and respect that you are both grieving. There is time for the rest later. Good luck! You can do this!
posted by widdershins at 9:13 AM on June 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
My advice to you is: just for right now, cut him some slack and recognize that he is grieving too. He has lost his life partner just as much as you have lost your mother, regardless of what their relationship was like.
For example, I can see how he could feel left out and miffed by you 'swooping in' and taking over the obit process. His telling you that it was difficult wasn't necessarily saying that he didn't want to do it. Remember that he is already feeling off balance in his position in the world. I'm not saying you did anything wrong - quite the opposite - but I can see how that could make him feel unappreciated and vulnerable.
Re the texts, you don't actually have to respond anything. But you do have an opportunity to simply say 'thank you for telling me how much her help meant to you - I'm glad and I'll be sure to tell her.' It doesn't commit you to anything, but it acknowledges his message in a positive way without pandering.
You have the rest of his life to work on establishing the boundaries you desire, and I think you're doing great. I just think that right now, so soon after his loss, is a time to try to remember and respect that you are both grieving. There is time for the rest later. Good luck! You can do this!
posted by widdershins at 9:13 AM on June 13, 2019 [11 favorites]
In this text exchange, I don't love his tone, but I get that what he was hoping for was an acknowledgement of the thanks: "you're welcome" or "I'll pass that on" would have been nice.
Agree with the above that a delay in response is generally a great idea, particularly to someone who pushes your buttons (and nobody can push those like our immediate family of origin!) Delay looking at/listening to messages. Then delay answering. By then your reflexive hostility has dissipated and you can answer dispassionately and strategically.
Anyway, you're doing fine, and this is all super optional for you now that your mom is gone. He's going to find that being a pouty PITA isn't a way to entice a son to stay close. Whether he can change is another question; but the extent to which he can be a problem for you is now under your control in a way it was not while your mother was alive.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:24 AM on June 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
Agree with the above that a delay in response is generally a great idea, particularly to someone who pushes your buttons (and nobody can push those like our immediate family of origin!) Delay looking at/listening to messages. Then delay answering. By then your reflexive hostility has dissipated and you can answer dispassionately and strategically.
Anyway, you're doing fine, and this is all super optional for you now that your mom is gone. He's going to find that being a pouty PITA isn't a way to entice a son to stay close. Whether he can change is another question; but the extent to which he can be a problem for you is now under your control in a way it was not while your mother was alive.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:24 AM on June 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
My advice to you is: just for right now, cut him some slack and recognize that he is grieving too. He has lost his life partner just as much as you have lost your mother, regardless of what their relationship was like.
In theory, of course. But OP, don't feel guilty if you can't handle cutting him extra slack and being especially kind to him right now in practice, especially since he's liable to be extra cold and harsh toward you in his selfishness and grief, and that's going to hurt especially badly right now as you grieve, too. I mean sure, be as kind and empathetic to him as you can, but if that just means taking care of any necessary logistics (like the obit) as efficiently as possible and getting out of there, well, you gotta take care of yourself first. He isn't going to extend you any mercy or care so you have to take it for yourself and be extra kind to yourself.
And just let your partner drop contact with him, there's no reason they need to have a relationship. That he has only just "improved" to the point that he's not actively groping her or whatever is horrible and he needs to not be around her. I also want to add that your feelings about how he treats women make perfect sense and you're not blowing anything out of proportion. He inappropriately sexualizes, degrades and maybe even assaults women right in front of your face, women that you love and identify with like your own mother and partner, and it's not OK for him to be predatory like that, and it is perfectly rational to see him as predatory and to treat him accordingly.
posted by rue72 at 9:36 AM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
In theory, of course. But OP, don't feel guilty if you can't handle cutting him extra slack and being especially kind to him right now in practice, especially since he's liable to be extra cold and harsh toward you in his selfishness and grief, and that's going to hurt especially badly right now as you grieve, too. I mean sure, be as kind and empathetic to him as you can, but if that just means taking care of any necessary logistics (like the obit) as efficiently as possible and getting out of there, well, you gotta take care of yourself first. He isn't going to extend you any mercy or care so you have to take it for yourself and be extra kind to yourself.
And just let your partner drop contact with him, there's no reason they need to have a relationship. That he has only just "improved" to the point that he's not actively groping her or whatever is horrible and he needs to not be around her. I also want to add that your feelings about how he treats women make perfect sense and you're not blowing anything out of proportion. He inappropriately sexualizes, degrades and maybe even assaults women right in front of your face, women that you love and identify with like your own mother and partner, and it's not OK for him to be predatory like that, and it is perfectly rational to see him as predatory and to treat him accordingly.
posted by rue72 at 9:36 AM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
What I would like to have is a pleasant, distant relationship with him that featured him standing on his own two feet
You can control the distant and your end of the pleasant. His end of the pleasant and the independence is on him. Some tips;
- text slow
- call him once a month at a time you choose when you have something after, like this: “hi dad, wanted to check in, just have a few minutes to talk before my spin class” “...okay have to go to spin class”
- don’t visit for now - give him time to adjust
posted by warriorqueen at 9:37 AM on June 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
You can control the distant and your end of the pleasant. His end of the pleasant and the independence is on him. Some tips;
- text slow
- call him once a month at a time you choose when you have something after, like this: “hi dad, wanted to check in, just have a few minutes to talk before my spin class” “...okay have to go to spin class”
- don’t visit for now - give him time to adjust
posted by warriorqueen at 9:37 AM on June 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'll admit that I didn't get the issue with his text message, but now that I've looked again, I see it. You're basically saying that your partner is great at [x] and he is totally redirecting that to himself - no, this isn't about your partner being great at [x] and helping out, this is about HIM appreciating your partner and he's grovelling for some kind of acknowledgement for being appreciative.
I think you're doing great at recognizing his narcissistic and oafish patterns. warriorqueen's suggestions are great. As for what to do with this text message, I wouldn't even bother responding. Or with a cheery "that's great to hear! I'll be sure to let her know. She'll appreciate that." i.e. recentering it back onto your partner. But who knows how he'll react to that though...
posted by foxjacket at 9:55 AM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think you're doing great at recognizing his narcissistic and oafish patterns. warriorqueen's suggestions are great. As for what to do with this text message, I wouldn't even bother responding. Or with a cheery "that's great to hear! I'll be sure to let her know. She'll appreciate that." i.e. recentering it back onto your partner. But who knows how he'll react to that though...
posted by foxjacket at 9:55 AM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I agree that you don’t need to respond.
I read his message as meaning “I want to let you know that I value your partner in an appropriate way. I want to make sure you know this because we’re both aware that I was inappropriate with her and didn’t respond maturely to you discussing it with me. I’m trying to make that water under the bridge by showing that I can act the right way vis a vis your partner.” And maybe “I hope you tell her how much I value her in this appropriate way so she doesn’t just think I’m a handsy old guy.”
But if he doesn’t want to get real and say that, then he might not get the desired response he’s seeking from you, which is some acknowledgment that he’s not just a handsy old guy and you and your partner are both cool with him now. And maybe he doesn’t want to be more explicit because he knows it’s not that simple or easy.
You could be generous and send him a happy smiley emoji or some other thing like that, but he’s already grumpily slapped down your attempt at a pleasant if generic response. So for me, I would not continue humoring him.
posted by sallybrown at 10:00 AM on June 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I read his message as meaning “I want to let you know that I value your partner in an appropriate way. I want to make sure you know this because we’re both aware that I was inappropriate with her and didn’t respond maturely to you discussing it with me. I’m trying to make that water under the bridge by showing that I can act the right way vis a vis your partner.” And maybe “I hope you tell her how much I value her in this appropriate way so she doesn’t just think I’m a handsy old guy.”
But if he doesn’t want to get real and say that, then he might not get the desired response he’s seeking from you, which is some acknowledgment that he’s not just a handsy old guy and you and your partner are both cool with him now. And maybe he doesn’t want to be more explicit because he knows it’s not that simple or easy.
You could be generous and send him a happy smiley emoji or some other thing like that, but he’s already grumpily slapped down your attempt at a pleasant if generic response. So for me, I would not continue humoring him.
posted by sallybrown at 10:00 AM on June 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
My condolences for your loss.
I believe you that his behavior in general sounds troubling.
That specific text, though? Frankly, seems normal to me. He’s lost his wife. Of course he’s a bit self-centered; his world has changed. I’m not saying you should pity him or engage with it, but just that what he sent is actually an example of a very normal message from someone in that situation. He’s trying to be kind when in the middle of the mindfuck of loss.
It’s ok to keep your distance from your dad, and awesome that you’re protecting your partner. I suspect that this and your own grief may be clouding your perspective on your dad interactions, making even innocuous messages seem to have hidden messages. This is something that could happen to anyone and isn’t a bad thing by itself. However, try not to let yourself fall further into the pit of “he sucks” while you’re in this headspace. Yes, he sucks, but his suckiness doesn’t need to impact you that intensely. It’s ok to just ignore it.
posted by samthemander at 10:17 AM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I believe you that his behavior in general sounds troubling.
That specific text, though? Frankly, seems normal to me. He’s lost his wife. Of course he’s a bit self-centered; his world has changed. I’m not saying you should pity him or engage with it, but just that what he sent is actually an example of a very normal message from someone in that situation. He’s trying to be kind when in the middle of the mindfuck of loss.
It’s ok to keep your distance from your dad, and awesome that you’re protecting your partner. I suspect that this and your own grief may be clouding your perspective on your dad interactions, making even innocuous messages seem to have hidden messages. This is something that could happen to anyone and isn’t a bad thing by itself. However, try not to let yourself fall further into the pit of “he sucks” while you’re in this headspace. Yes, he sucks, but his suckiness doesn’t need to impact you that intensely. It’s ok to just ignore it.
posted by samthemander at 10:17 AM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm glad you could be there for your mom in the end, that you have always stuck up for your partner, and that your extended family is pretty much on the same page in terms of how they view your dad.
I think all the advice so far is very good. I especially agree with warriorqueen's specific steps.
Your dad does want a pleasant relationship with you but clearly is unable to take the lead due to his deep-rooted psychological issues. There's a lot of relief in knowing you don't have to ever talk to him again; choosing to do so can be incredibly liberating. I did that eleven years ago with my older brother and am glad every day. It also can be very empowering to have an adult relationship with a difficult parent where you take the lead and set the terms while recognizing they're flawed and stick to boundaries so you can get what you need. A therapist can help with you that because it's a long-term process, and you're already setting that up so it's good! For now, a cordial distance seems best.
Also, emojis are perfect for this kind of thing. Your dad sends you a message like that, and you send a thumbs up or smiley back. You acknowledge his message but also end the back and forth.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:26 AM on June 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think all the advice so far is very good. I especially agree with warriorqueen's specific steps.
Your dad does want a pleasant relationship with you but clearly is unable to take the lead due to his deep-rooted psychological issues. There's a lot of relief in knowing you don't have to ever talk to him again; choosing to do so can be incredibly liberating. I did that eleven years ago with my older brother and am glad every day. It also can be very empowering to have an adult relationship with a difficult parent where you take the lead and set the terms while recognizing they're flawed and stick to boundaries so you can get what you need. A therapist can help with you that because it's a long-term process, and you're already setting that up so it's good! For now, a cordial distance seems best.
Also, emojis are perfect for this kind of thing. Your dad sends you a message like that, and you send a thumbs up or smiley back. You acknowledge his message but also end the back and forth.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:26 AM on June 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm really sorry you lost your mom.
I have one of these parents. He's impossible and I feel your pain about this.
Honestly though? Do nothing.
To me, the "Claire text" is a kind of splitting, where the narcissist exalts one person for wholly selfish reasons and, either deliberately or collaterally, knocks someone else down. You could fight and ask for clarification about the text or try to explain yourself but I think you already know that nothing you say will be interpreted as having honest, kind intent. He'll only interpret an answer as fighting, or insensitivity, or you attacking him, and after HE SAID SUCH NICE THINGS ABOUT CLAIRE and especially while HE'S GRIEVING! (He will not acknowledge your grief, of course, because only his grief exists. This all probably feels familiar.)
For me, in dealing with my own narcissistic parent, all I expect is that he is going to do exactly what he has always done. He's going to expect to be cared for and indulged while contributing exactly nothing and making me miserable and attempting to place me on a permanent guilt trip. He's not a parent. "Parent" is the role a capable person assumes WILLINGLY in the lives of their child/ren. He is your father. But being a father and fathering are not the same thing.
The best thing you can do is to allow your father to flounder around for awhile until he figures out how to care for himself without constant help. If he is able-bodied and of sound mind - such as he can be - he will do this because he now has no other choice.
You don't need to do this work anymore. You're the strong one and that makes him ashamed. It isn't your fault and there's nothing more you can do. Go forth and live your life. If you can make space occasionally to deal with him, great. If you can handle his needs without getting snowed under emotionally, great. If not, you're not obligated to keep on with this relationship. You did your part. I give you permission to move on emotionally from your role as dutiful, rational child to his insane, flailing parent, and encourage you to keep the distance you want so that you can move forward though your own grief and into the future you want for yourself and your partner.
Good luck. Again, my sympathies for the loss of your mom.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:05 PM on June 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
I have one of these parents. He's impossible and I feel your pain about this.
Honestly though? Do nothing.
To me, the "Claire text" is a kind of splitting, where the narcissist exalts one person for wholly selfish reasons and, either deliberately or collaterally, knocks someone else down. You could fight and ask for clarification about the text or try to explain yourself but I think you already know that nothing you say will be interpreted as having honest, kind intent. He'll only interpret an answer as fighting, or insensitivity, or you attacking him, and after HE SAID SUCH NICE THINGS ABOUT CLAIRE and especially while HE'S GRIEVING! (He will not acknowledge your grief, of course, because only his grief exists. This all probably feels familiar.)
For me, in dealing with my own narcissistic parent, all I expect is that he is going to do exactly what he has always done. He's going to expect to be cared for and indulged while contributing exactly nothing and making me miserable and attempting to place me on a permanent guilt trip. He's not a parent. "Parent" is the role a capable person assumes WILLINGLY in the lives of their child/ren. He is your father. But being a father and fathering are not the same thing.
The best thing you can do is to allow your father to flounder around for awhile until he figures out how to care for himself without constant help. If he is able-bodied and of sound mind - such as he can be - he will do this because he now has no other choice.
You don't need to do this work anymore. You're the strong one and that makes him ashamed. It isn't your fault and there's nothing more you can do. Go forth and live your life. If you can make space occasionally to deal with him, great. If you can handle his needs without getting snowed under emotionally, great. If not, you're not obligated to keep on with this relationship. You did your part. I give you permission to move on emotionally from your role as dutiful, rational child to his insane, flailing parent, and encourage you to keep the distance you want so that you can move forward though your own grief and into the future you want for yourself and your partner.
Good luck. Again, my sympathies for the loss of your mom.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 12:05 PM on June 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
Your father sounds like a difficult man, and it makes complete sense that you have a troubled relationship with him. But - gently - your reactivity and anger don't seem proportionate to the current incidents and circumstances.
I wonder if you feel as if you are still "under his thumb", and that he has the power to damage you or your life anymore? Because he doesn't. We all tend to regress into our child selves and react from a place of "You're not the boss of me!" when dealing with difficult parents.... But there is no need for us to say that. It's just true. He knows it and you know it. He has no power over you anymore. This is not a battle anymore, you have won, inevitably, by growing up and growing into your own power.
Your positions are now reversed: your father needs you desperately and you don't need him at all. Keeping that in mind, the question I have for you is: what are you going to do with all that power you've got?
One of my sincere beliefs is that even difficult people are entitled (yes, entitled) to kindness and compassion from us when we have power over them. You don't have to agree - but please give the idea a think. This man has lost his wife.
He lost his wife, and then he didn't get to write her obituary -- are you really going to hold it against him that he didn't express his upset in your preferred, polite and calm and emotionally intelligent way?
He lost his wife, and then he is desperately in need of reassurance, closeness, and connection with his adult child -- are you really going to hold his neediness against him? (Not saying you must gratify his need, but to judge him for being needy is very harsh!)
You are probably hurting yourself right now. It's very clear in your post that you cannot stand this man, he only adds to your pain, and that you do not want a relationship with him. That's fine. It's fully okay to not give him what he is asking for. It's okay to disengage from him. It's okay to concentrate on yourself and take care of your own pain right now. You have suffered an immense loss... you have every right to "do you".
But in the name of the power you have over this man (which you did not seek or ask for, I know, but which you have, nevertheless, by dint of him needing you more than you need him), I urge you to BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
- ask one of your aunties or uncles to keep him company.
- gently but directly tell him that you will not be around to support him through this difficult time. He needs to know. You can say, "I need to focus on myself. I know you're going through a difficult time, and I'm sorry I cannot be here for you, but you are surrounded by your family and friends. I hope you use the support they are offering you."
- make sure you don't step on his toes when it comes to remembering your mother and planning her service. Your feelings about him should not make you push him out of the ceremony, planning, etc. even if you can rationalize to yourself that he complained that things are hard.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Be kind to yourself, and be kind to your dad.
posted by MiraK at 12:55 PM on June 13, 2019 [8 favorites]
I wonder if you feel as if you are still "under his thumb", and that he has the power to damage you or your life anymore? Because he doesn't. We all tend to regress into our child selves and react from a place of "You're not the boss of me!" when dealing with difficult parents.... But there is no need for us to say that. It's just true. He knows it and you know it. He has no power over you anymore. This is not a battle anymore, you have won, inevitably, by growing up and growing into your own power.
Your positions are now reversed: your father needs you desperately and you don't need him at all. Keeping that in mind, the question I have for you is: what are you going to do with all that power you've got?
One of my sincere beliefs is that even difficult people are entitled (yes, entitled) to kindness and compassion from us when we have power over them. You don't have to agree - but please give the idea a think. This man has lost his wife.
He lost his wife, and then he didn't get to write her obituary -- are you really going to hold it against him that he didn't express his upset in your preferred, polite and calm and emotionally intelligent way?
He lost his wife, and then he is desperately in need of reassurance, closeness, and connection with his adult child -- are you really going to hold his neediness against him? (Not saying you must gratify his need, but to judge him for being needy is very harsh!)
You are probably hurting yourself right now. It's very clear in your post that you cannot stand this man, he only adds to your pain, and that you do not want a relationship with him. That's fine. It's fully okay to not give him what he is asking for. It's okay to disengage from him. It's okay to concentrate on yourself and take care of your own pain right now. You have suffered an immense loss... you have every right to "do you".
But in the name of the power you have over this man (which you did not seek or ask for, I know, but which you have, nevertheless, by dint of him needing you more than you need him), I urge you to BE KIND AND COMPASSIONATE.
- ask one of your aunties or uncles to keep him company.
- gently but directly tell him that you will not be around to support him through this difficult time. He needs to know. You can say, "I need to focus on myself. I know you're going through a difficult time, and I'm sorry I cannot be here for you, but you are surrounded by your family and friends. I hope you use the support they are offering you."
- make sure you don't step on his toes when it comes to remembering your mother and planning her service. Your feelings about him should not make you push him out of the ceremony, planning, etc. even if you can rationalize to yourself that he complained that things are hard.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Be kind to yourself, and be kind to your dad.
posted by MiraK at 12:55 PM on June 13, 2019 [8 favorites]
You might ask this quesiton over at the Raised By Narcissists sub on reddit too.
I think the techniques you'll want to use here are gray rocking, structured contact and ghosting. Delay your replies to him so that he doesn't get used to immediate responses. Ignore anything he is saying to get a rise out of you or that seems off and call him once a month (or whatever) with a time limit set and excuse to hang up ready to go. When you do talk, gray rock--give bland "uh huh" responses to everything and change the subject to boring stuff whenever he's trying to get your goat or asking nosy questions. (Him: I was so bored this weekend! I just don't know what to do with myself! You: uh huh. How's the weather been?)
In the instance of this text exchange, I don't know that his crap requires you to respond. You could ignore it or just say "Thanks!" (In you mind, think "thanks = whatever.")
I'm sorry for your loss.
posted by purple_bird at 1:29 PM on June 13, 2019
I think the techniques you'll want to use here are gray rocking, structured contact and ghosting. Delay your replies to him so that he doesn't get used to immediate responses. Ignore anything he is saying to get a rise out of you or that seems off and call him once a month (or whatever) with a time limit set and excuse to hang up ready to go. When you do talk, gray rock--give bland "uh huh" responses to everything and change the subject to boring stuff whenever he's trying to get your goat or asking nosy questions. (Him: I was so bored this weekend! I just don't know what to do with myself! You: uh huh. How's the weather been?)
In the instance of this text exchange, I don't know that his crap requires you to respond. You could ignore it or just say "Thanks!" (In you mind, think "thanks = whatever.")
I'm sorry for your loss.
posted by purple_bird at 1:29 PM on June 13, 2019
You do a good job of outlining the situation. I'm so sorry for your loss and that you're dealing with this in the midst of it.
I do also tend to agree with some of the comments that are sharing ways that, in their view, "your reactivity and anger don't seem proportionate to the current incidents and circumstances." It makes total sense that you're highly reactive -- you grew up with the guy, and you're grieving. But as someone who has extra sympathy to go around, I also feel some sympathy for how he might've felt if a group started writing an obituary that he wanted to write (however well meaning they were), even though he didn't express it well at all.
The text felt odd, but not infuriating, though over a few reads I could see why it would be. The text only strikes me as moderately narcissistic. While there is some undertone of "I'm suffering and this helped somewhat," and a focus on his feelings, and an insistence that you recognize that he already knows how great she is, there is also a lot of emphasis on Claire and her helpfulness, and a gratitude that to me is a bit apart from narcissists' sense of entitlement. A response that takes in what he says without excessively reorienting around him might be something like "glad that her help was so useful to you. I'll pass it along."
On a possible tangent, this makes me remember a time when I tried to explain to someone how their relatively minor helpful act had moved mountains in my life and that I was grateful far beyond just the little "hey thanks" that their act of courtesy would normally elicit. Was that narcissistic of me to try to explain? It would've meant a lot to me if they had understood that. So a response that would show that you get it without making his feelings overly central could be something like "sometimes a little act of help can make a big difference, huh?"
So sorry for your loss. I hope others in your community can step up and deal with him so that you can have some space from him.
posted by salvia at 1:30 PM on June 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I do also tend to agree with some of the comments that are sharing ways that, in their view, "your reactivity and anger don't seem proportionate to the current incidents and circumstances." It makes total sense that you're highly reactive -- you grew up with the guy, and you're grieving. But as someone who has extra sympathy to go around, I also feel some sympathy for how he might've felt if a group started writing an obituary that he wanted to write (however well meaning they were), even though he didn't express it well at all.
The text felt odd, but not infuriating, though over a few reads I could see why it would be. The text only strikes me as moderately narcissistic. While there is some undertone of "I'm suffering and this helped somewhat," and a focus on his feelings, and an insistence that you recognize that he already knows how great she is, there is also a lot of emphasis on Claire and her helpfulness, and a gratitude that to me is a bit apart from narcissists' sense of entitlement. A response that takes in what he says without excessively reorienting around him might be something like "glad that her help was so useful to you. I'll pass it along."
On a possible tangent, this makes me remember a time when I tried to explain to someone how their relatively minor helpful act had moved mountains in my life and that I was grateful far beyond just the little "hey thanks" that their act of courtesy would normally elicit. Was that narcissistic of me to try to explain? It would've meant a lot to me if they had understood that. So a response that would show that you get it without making his feelings overly central could be something like "sometimes a little act of help can make a big difference, huh?"
So sorry for your loss. I hope others in your community can step up and deal with him so that you can have some space from him.
posted by salvia at 1:30 PM on June 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
Hm, I'm not sure how to post this. If it should be deleted, that's fine. I lost my father very unexpectedly in late February. I love my mom, and we're close. If I hadn't been there and all of her family and friends (so many friends! she is so loved!), I am not sure she would have survived in a recognizable form.
I'm not saying it should be you or has to be you, but some of these responses don't seem to understand what losing a life partner can do to an older person. It's clear that there is a deep history with your father we can't fully feel and live in like you have, and that sounds like it was very painful over time. That sucks. So knowing I can't fully understand a lifetime of dealing with it... that text message strikes me as him attempting to clarify how much it helped him in a very tough time. If that exchange is viewed so negatively, I'm not sure what there is to salvage.
If my mom had screamed and thrown a tantrum, I would have fully accepted it. She lost everything in her immediate world that mattered and cared and doted on her. I saw it. She loves me, but I'm not there 24/7 like he was.
He said a bunch of stuff about how he didn’t feel welcome helping us; how he had already started writing his own obit, just flailing his feelings around, as though the rest of us hadn’t also lost a beloved family member.
I hope someday you can both find peace, this hurts my soul on a lot of levels. We often translate our emotions about thing A into being about thing B. I don't know how to ask, "Did you ask him if he had started an obituary?" without sounding accusatory. But I'm not accusing you. I know how painful the entire experience is to get it done, keep moving, get it done, don't stop moving because you'll break down.
Anyway, that's all. I wish you peace, whatever form it finds you in.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:16 PM on June 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying it should be you or has to be you, but some of these responses don't seem to understand what losing a life partner can do to an older person. It's clear that there is a deep history with your father we can't fully feel and live in like you have, and that sounds like it was very painful over time. That sucks. So knowing I can't fully understand a lifetime of dealing with it... that text message strikes me as him attempting to clarify how much it helped him in a very tough time. If that exchange is viewed so negatively, I'm not sure what there is to salvage.
If my mom had screamed and thrown a tantrum, I would have fully accepted it. She lost everything in her immediate world that mattered and cared and doted on her. I saw it. She loves me, but I'm not there 24/7 like he was.
He said a bunch of stuff about how he didn’t feel welcome helping us; how he had already started writing his own obit, just flailing his feelings around, as though the rest of us hadn’t also lost a beloved family member.
I hope someday you can both find peace, this hurts my soul on a lot of levels. We often translate our emotions about thing A into being about thing B. I don't know how to ask, "Did you ask him if he had started an obituary?" without sounding accusatory. But I'm not accusing you. I know how painful the entire experience is to get it done, keep moving, get it done, don't stop moving because you'll break down.
Anyway, that's all. I wish you peace, whatever form it finds you in.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:16 PM on June 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Advice that does not appear to consider anything that happened before my mom's death should review that context! And consider the idea that there are many similar incidents over a period of years that I haven't mentioned! He was not a fully supportive ally to her during her illness, it should not surprise you to learn! The minute he left the room, the last time that I saw her that she was strong enough, the only thing that she wanted to do was complain to me about him while she still had the chance. She did all the work and when the time was coming...he still wanted her to do all the work. Now there is no one to do the work and he needs someone to do the work. The issue is not "My mom died and now my dad is being needy and self centered", it is "My mom died and now my dad is pretending that our relationship is not justifiably fractured along a variety of angles"
Everyone close to the situation agrees that my dad's behavior has been problematic independent of my mom's illness. Your advice would be most helpful if it were on board with that idea. Thanks to the advice that has been!
posted by Kwine at 2:52 PM on June 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
Everyone close to the situation agrees that my dad's behavior has been problematic independent of my mom's illness. Your advice would be most helpful if it were on board with that idea. Thanks to the advice that has been!
posted by Kwine at 2:52 PM on June 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
I totally get the thing he’s doing, where on the surface he looks perfectly polite but there’s all this subtext designed to drive you crazy. I hate that shit. My advice is to reply in a blandly polite way, only to the surface communication. I would go with something like “Thank you. I’ll pass your sentiments along to Claire.” Don’t give him the satisfaction of knowing he gets to you. Then ignore him.
posted by Weeping_angel at 2:59 PM on June 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Weeping_angel at 2:59 PM on June 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
There are two separate questions contained in the ur-question you've posted.
1. What do you need to do for your father?
2. How should you feel about your father?
The answer to 1. is, be kind and compassionate. Disengage as much as you need to, but do it kindly (i.e. directly telling him you are disengaging but lying about why, indirectly making some minimal efforts to ensure he has support from others). This answer holds regardless of history and even regardless of the present. He might even yell and scream at you at some point, but this answer will still be true, it will never be right for you to vent your own anger at him. He has no power over you AND he is a recent widow. That means you have to take the high road every time. Protect yourself by disengaging but you don't get to not be kind.
The answer to 2. is, you get to feel however you feel. All this anger you are carrying against your father deserves to be heard, YOU deserve to be validated and empathized with and comforted and cooed at and allowed to vent as much as you need to. You deserve unconditional support in your anger towards your father. Like, the fact that the last thing she spoke of to you was to complain about him? I can't imagine how furious you must be with him, and rightly so! You shouldn't have to carry this anger alone. I hope you will seek the support of your partner, your friends, your pets, and definitely a therapist in order to give yourself the outlet you deserve.
All I'm saying is: just don't vent at your dad. Not now.
posted by MiraK at 3:18 PM on June 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
1. What do you need to do for your father?
2. How should you feel about your father?
The answer to 1. is, be kind and compassionate. Disengage as much as you need to, but do it kindly (i.e. directly telling him you are disengaging but lying about why, indirectly making some minimal efforts to ensure he has support from others). This answer holds regardless of history and even regardless of the present. He might even yell and scream at you at some point, but this answer will still be true, it will never be right for you to vent your own anger at him. He has no power over you AND he is a recent widow. That means you have to take the high road every time. Protect yourself by disengaging but you don't get to not be kind.
The answer to 2. is, you get to feel however you feel. All this anger you are carrying against your father deserves to be heard, YOU deserve to be validated and empathized with and comforted and cooed at and allowed to vent as much as you need to. You deserve unconditional support in your anger towards your father. Like, the fact that the last thing she spoke of to you was to complain about him? I can't imagine how furious you must be with him, and rightly so! You shouldn't have to carry this anger alone. I hope you will seek the support of your partner, your friends, your pets, and definitely a therapist in order to give yourself the outlet you deserve.
All I'm saying is: just don't vent at your dad. Not now.
posted by MiraK at 3:18 PM on June 13, 2019 [3 favorites]
I revise my answer to stop talking to him whenever the celebration of life is done.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 4:13 PM on June 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 4:13 PM on June 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's possible for all of these things to be true:
Your dad is pretty awful in many ways and has a well-established history of poor to wretched behavior towards loved ones.
Your dad was not a great a husband to your mom, including at the end of her life, and had a difficult time centering her needs over his, including when she was dying and could have most used some more care and respect.
Your dad is grieving his life partner in a profound way that's difficult to appreciate if you haven't lost a long-term, intimate partner.
Several years ago I dated and later married a widower. There were lots of people who loved his first wife, who were incredibly close to her. They all got to go home to their partners and stable lives after the funeral. His entire home existence changed. You lost your mom, which is a huge loss. You also still have your intimate partner and your bed and bedroom and house haven't changed as a result of your mom's death. It's a huge loss, but so is his. Not acknowledging that won't serve you.
Also, what I think you are missing: your dad is missing his wife, and likely he is seeing in Claire's support of you and him a bit of what he's lost (and maybe didn't fully appreciate). So by complimenting your partner, he's trying to relate to you as a husband. Maybe? I'm not saying he's doing this consciously. But he complimented your partner, even if it wasn't graceful. It's okay to accept the good in what he's said and ignore the rest.
I know you don't have much space for compassion for him right now. Your follow-up indicates that you have a lot of anger at him (which is totally reasonable given his behavior). But there's not much to be gained by punching him while he's down. Sure, you can score a few cheap shots and you might feel a release of anger. But being an asshole is your dad's move, not your move. If you're a jerk to your dad, you're acting like your dad.
Frankly, your follow up reads a bit like your own petulant temper tantrum. You're mad at folks who are suggesting you take his grief into account in your reactions to him.
There's a lot going on here. I think it's really difficult to change our behavior patterns with our parents, especially when they have a history of terrible behavior. I think you have a shit ton to unpack in therapy. Disengage as much as you can from your dad, and spend a lot of time talking about him with a good therapist. Don't be an ass like your dad even if it feels really good.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:01 PM on June 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
Your dad is pretty awful in many ways and has a well-established history of poor to wretched behavior towards loved ones.
Your dad was not a great a husband to your mom, including at the end of her life, and had a difficult time centering her needs over his, including when she was dying and could have most used some more care and respect.
Your dad is grieving his life partner in a profound way that's difficult to appreciate if you haven't lost a long-term, intimate partner.
Several years ago I dated and later married a widower. There were lots of people who loved his first wife, who were incredibly close to her. They all got to go home to their partners and stable lives after the funeral. His entire home existence changed. You lost your mom, which is a huge loss. You also still have your intimate partner and your bed and bedroom and house haven't changed as a result of your mom's death. It's a huge loss, but so is his. Not acknowledging that won't serve you.
Also, what I think you are missing: your dad is missing his wife, and likely he is seeing in Claire's support of you and him a bit of what he's lost (and maybe didn't fully appreciate). So by complimenting your partner, he's trying to relate to you as a husband. Maybe? I'm not saying he's doing this consciously. But he complimented your partner, even if it wasn't graceful. It's okay to accept the good in what he's said and ignore the rest.
I know you don't have much space for compassion for him right now. Your follow-up indicates that you have a lot of anger at him (which is totally reasonable given his behavior). But there's not much to be gained by punching him while he's down. Sure, you can score a few cheap shots and you might feel a release of anger. But being an asshole is your dad's move, not your move. If you're a jerk to your dad, you're acting like your dad.
Frankly, your follow up reads a bit like your own petulant temper tantrum. You're mad at folks who are suggesting you take his grief into account in your reactions to him.
There's a lot going on here. I think it's really difficult to change our behavior patterns with our parents, especially when they have a history of terrible behavior. I think you have a shit ton to unpack in therapy. Disengage as much as you can from your dad, and spend a lot of time talking about him with a good therapist. Don't be an ass like your dad even if it feels really good.
posted by bluedaisy at 7:01 PM on June 13, 2019 [6 favorites]
You're very lucky to still have your partner, from my perspective. Your dad put his hands on her and otherwise made her uncomfortable, more than once. Your family were universally enablers and apologists for this behavior, up until last summer, when you finally got your dad to stop touching her. Not - you went low or no contact with your dad. Not - he stopped bothering her entirely.
You have an obligation to not upset your father. I think you have a much, much greater obligation to not shackle your partner to family dynamics like these, to not ask her or anyone else to tolerate being creeped on.
I feel like it's up to you how you support your partner: draw new lines with him, or let her go.
posted by bagel at 7:19 PM on June 13, 2019
You have an obligation to not upset your father. I think you have a much, much greater obligation to not shackle your partner to family dynamics like these, to not ask her or anyone else to tolerate being creeped on.
I feel like it's up to you how you support your partner: draw new lines with him, or let her go.
posted by bagel at 7:19 PM on June 13, 2019
My father is of a similar flavour and my mother’s passing was also inflected with some of what you have shared here. My father also had a problem with me being involved with my mother’s funeral events and had a similar tantrum. And I also had a problem with being encumbered by my own power struggles with him during this time.
Triangulation is common with problematic people for whom overt lines of inappropriateness are hard to nail down. It’s easy for even those who have complained to you privately to step sideways around the issues. They’ve found their way to deal, ie by you being the Scapegoat. Consider that these same people probably have bitched about you or listened to him bitch about his side of the story. That’s how folks are in this dynamic. That’s the deal with being raised in narcissistic environments. Don’t get drawn in to litigating with third parties. They don’t like something, they deal with it themselves.
Had he been a nicer dad, I would have been more attuned to holding my father’s true needs in mind as we proceeded with funeral arrangements. He lost his partner, and even narcissists get to grieve and have real feelings in such situations.
Part of being raised in narcissism is our desire to be good, to do hard work, to prove publicly that you are good. Drawn in by long experience in the narc dance, we also perform our part - rebellious acts covertly dressed up as social compliance. For example, the dance with the obituary. You had a public struggle for control - you got the reward of his infantile performance in front of your wider family which gives your overall disaffected feelings validity. You get to be right! See, he’s an asshole!
The child, him/herself clothed in the ‘fleas’ of narcissistic raising, is acting out too. This is hard to hear about oneself. As others have said, your job now is to strip the oxygen from this dance, not fan the fire. You see another triangle dance like the one with your partner, your mother’s honour, your family onlookers, you ‘grey rock’ it. Your text back to his is fine. Leave it at that. Don’t let yourself give this more thought and analysis because it gets you nowhere.
In the months after my mother’s death I reached out with ‘I hope you are managing ok dad, thinking of you’ and helped clean up mum’s things. I made myself think of him as any other person who’d lost their life partner. I got drawn in to narc crap sometimes, and avoided it at others. Gradually, and with therapy, I shed many of my ‘fleas’ and learnt not to try to win in this dance. I see an enactment of the dance on the horizon and I don’t chase it. I see it and I let it go.
It’s over twenty years since my mother passed away, and I don’t talk to my father unless placed socially, unavoidably in the same situation like a wedding or a funeral. In those situations I am courteous and cheerful. Other family members want the triangle to continue and will bitch about him, do all kinds of manoeuvres to continue the drama fest. They miss their triangulating tripod and are part of the problem. Stop engaging or listening to them. Say, ‘sounds like that is between you and X’ and step back, feign boredom, change the subject. Repeat after me: bitching relatives are not my problem. Since I have done this with relatives, they have discontinued any meaningful relationship with my father on their own.
You’re doing the right thing in seeing a therapist about this relationship. I believe it’s the main way we, children of narcs, get rid of our fleas and become fully autonomous adults.
posted by honey-barbara at 7:30 PM on June 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
Triangulation is common with problematic people for whom overt lines of inappropriateness are hard to nail down. It’s easy for even those who have complained to you privately to step sideways around the issues. They’ve found their way to deal, ie by you being the Scapegoat. Consider that these same people probably have bitched about you or listened to him bitch about his side of the story. That’s how folks are in this dynamic. That’s the deal with being raised in narcissistic environments. Don’t get drawn in to litigating with third parties. They don’t like something, they deal with it themselves.
Had he been a nicer dad, I would have been more attuned to holding my father’s true needs in mind as we proceeded with funeral arrangements. He lost his partner, and even narcissists get to grieve and have real feelings in such situations.
Part of being raised in narcissism is our desire to be good, to do hard work, to prove publicly that you are good. Drawn in by long experience in the narc dance, we also perform our part - rebellious acts covertly dressed up as social compliance. For example, the dance with the obituary. You had a public struggle for control - you got the reward of his infantile performance in front of your wider family which gives your overall disaffected feelings validity. You get to be right! See, he’s an asshole!
The child, him/herself clothed in the ‘fleas’ of narcissistic raising, is acting out too. This is hard to hear about oneself. As others have said, your job now is to strip the oxygen from this dance, not fan the fire. You see another triangle dance like the one with your partner, your mother’s honour, your family onlookers, you ‘grey rock’ it. Your text back to his is fine. Leave it at that. Don’t let yourself give this more thought and analysis because it gets you nowhere.
In the months after my mother’s death I reached out with ‘I hope you are managing ok dad, thinking of you’ and helped clean up mum’s things. I made myself think of him as any other person who’d lost their life partner. I got drawn in to narc crap sometimes, and avoided it at others. Gradually, and with therapy, I shed many of my ‘fleas’ and learnt not to try to win in this dance. I see an enactment of the dance on the horizon and I don’t chase it. I see it and I let it go.
It’s over twenty years since my mother passed away, and I don’t talk to my father unless placed socially, unavoidably in the same situation like a wedding or a funeral. In those situations I am courteous and cheerful. Other family members want the triangle to continue and will bitch about him, do all kinds of manoeuvres to continue the drama fest. They miss their triangulating tripod and are part of the problem. Stop engaging or listening to them. Say, ‘sounds like that is between you and X’ and step back, feign boredom, change the subject. Repeat after me: bitching relatives are not my problem. Since I have done this with relatives, they have discontinued any meaningful relationship with my father on their own.
You’re doing the right thing in seeing a therapist about this relationship. I believe it’s the main way we, children of narcs, get rid of our fleas and become fully autonomous adults.
posted by honey-barbara at 7:30 PM on June 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think some people analyzing the text have no idea of the back history that informs Kwine‘s reaction. The text appears to fit neatly into a long history of button pushing behaviour. In isolation it sounds benign, but Kwine rightly spells out what the subtext is and what it‘s designed to do.
Kwine, you sound thoughtful and extremely competent in analysing your relationship with your father. My two thoughts are:
1) There‘s no point in wasting MORE time and emotion on him. You say you want a distanced but positive relationship. The „grey rock“ type advice is good for that. But...is there a reason why you can‘t just stop talking to him at all? Make a break? I mean, maybe that gives you more trouble with your enabling family than it‘s worth. Or maybe you fear he‘ll become so clingy you won‘t be able to drop him without significant mental stress. Or maybe you‘re thinking „not yet, bad timing“. All of these are valid reasons, I‘d just encourage you to think about why you are holding on to this relationship at all and whether the reasons outweigh the cost. Both on you and your partner, who you are exposing to this guy.
2) Yes, he‘s grieving, but so are you. I think that given his past behaviour you owe him nothing. A significant part of his grief is not for his wife but for the social life, emotional and physical labour, the life she provided for him. Right now he’s going to be pretty bewildered that good things (like food and company) are things that are no longer automatically provided to him. He won’t have figured out that for the rest of his life he is going to have to work hard to get them! Soon, your father is going to turn on you, expecting you and your partner to fill the gap and becoming aggrieved if you don‘t. Dude, you don‘t need this. You are grieving. It‘s okay to slam that door.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:48 PM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Kwine, you sound thoughtful and extremely competent in analysing your relationship with your father. My two thoughts are:
1) There‘s no point in wasting MORE time and emotion on him. You say you want a distanced but positive relationship. The „grey rock“ type advice is good for that. But...is there a reason why you can‘t just stop talking to him at all? Make a break? I mean, maybe that gives you more trouble with your enabling family than it‘s worth. Or maybe you fear he‘ll become so clingy you won‘t be able to drop him without significant mental stress. Or maybe you‘re thinking „not yet, bad timing“. All of these are valid reasons, I‘d just encourage you to think about why you are holding on to this relationship at all and whether the reasons outweigh the cost. Both on you and your partner, who you are exposing to this guy.
2) Yes, he‘s grieving, but so are you. I think that given his past behaviour you owe him nothing. A significant part of his grief is not for his wife but for the social life, emotional and physical labour, the life she provided for him. Right now he’s going to be pretty bewildered that good things (like food and company) are things that are no longer automatically provided to him. He won’t have figured out that for the rest of his life he is going to have to work hard to get them! Soon, your father is going to turn on you, expecting you and your partner to fill the gap and becoming aggrieved if you don‘t. Dude, you don‘t need this. You are grieving. It‘s okay to slam that door.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:48 PM on June 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
This whole situation is so horribly familiar from my own mother's death & my father's reaction to it.
My mother died two years ago, also from cancer. She had been separated from my father for a couple of years at that point - after surviving close to a lifetime of domestic abuse & manipulative control, she was able to leave him in her mid-70s, when she was already gravely ill. Even as she left him, he was unable to recognise that it was his own abusive behaviour that she was escaping.
Around the time of her death & funeral, he made quite a show of his grief - which at some level was real, but so much mixed with his self-pity and self-involvement that it was impossible to separate them. My mother had made careful plans for her own funeral, and he tried, and nearly succeeded, to crap all over them & re-make them into a fantasy of his own devising, whereby he'd eventually be buried in the same plot. Between us siblings, we stared him down & insisted that her life be celebrated in exactly the way that she'd chosen for herself.
immediately afterwards, I thought I could continue an arms-length relationship of pretty much the same nature that we'd had for the past several years - but in time, a year or so later, I found that I couldn't bear even that. Now, he plays no part in my life. I'll send him a card on his birthday, and I hear how he is via my siblings, but I don't seek out his company.
You don't have to engage with your father, or to placate his needs. He'll figure out a way to live in the world, as we all do. Maybe he'll make it as a whole human being all on his own, or maybe he'll do what my dad has done, and recruit another partner asap so that he can dump his needs on them instead. Either way, his life is his, and your life is yours. He's made his choices.
Kwine, I'm very sorry for your loss & I wish you strength & love to recover from it.
posted by rd45 at 2:53 AM on June 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
My mother died two years ago, also from cancer. She had been separated from my father for a couple of years at that point - after surviving close to a lifetime of domestic abuse & manipulative control, she was able to leave him in her mid-70s, when she was already gravely ill. Even as she left him, he was unable to recognise that it was his own abusive behaviour that she was escaping.
Around the time of her death & funeral, he made quite a show of his grief - which at some level was real, but so much mixed with his self-pity and self-involvement that it was impossible to separate them. My mother had made careful plans for her own funeral, and he tried, and nearly succeeded, to crap all over them & re-make them into a fantasy of his own devising, whereby he'd eventually be buried in the same plot. Between us siblings, we stared him down & insisted that her life be celebrated in exactly the way that she'd chosen for herself.
immediately afterwards, I thought I could continue an arms-length relationship of pretty much the same nature that we'd had for the past several years - but in time, a year or so later, I found that I couldn't bear even that. Now, he plays no part in my life. I'll send him a card on his birthday, and I hear how he is via my siblings, but I don't seek out his company.
You don't have to engage with your father, or to placate his needs. He'll figure out a way to live in the world, as we all do. Maybe he'll make it as a whole human being all on his own, or maybe he'll do what my dad has done, and recruit another partner asap so that he can dump his needs on them instead. Either way, his life is his, and your life is yours. He's made his choices.
Kwine, I'm very sorry for your loss & I wish you strength & love to recover from it.
posted by rd45 at 2:53 AM on June 14, 2019 [3 favorites]
I have a relationship in my life that has a lot of the same feel even though the details are very different. One of the things that I've been very grateful for lately is that I can ask my husband for perspective and help with a socially acceptable but still really neutral response. I totally know I get reactive to the tiniest comments from this person because they have a looooong history of subtle (and overt) criticism and selfishness. My husband knows the person is difficult but also doesn't have the emotional baggage. I also do a few of the things people mentioned above - limiting conversational channels to text since that's easier for me, taking my time to respond or not responding at all if I don't feel like it (whoops, I missed that message!). It's taken a long time to absorb that I don't HAVE to respond because for so long everything felt like an attack where I had to defend myself. I get why folks are counseling attempting to be patient and charitable but WOW do I know what it feels like to not have a drop of it left after years of trying.
I'm sorry for your loss and I hope some of this is helpful.
posted by brilliantine at 6:28 AM on June 14, 2019
I'm sorry for your loss and I hope some of this is helpful.
posted by brilliantine at 6:28 AM on June 14, 2019
For whatever it may be worth, you don't owe your dad anything at all. It sounds like your relationship with your mom was the only reason you were in more than absolutely minimal contact with him, and her death isn't a reason for you to welcome him and his terrible behavior back into your life. I've dealt with narcissists previously - not either of my parents, but an ex-turned-friend (guess who did the emotional labor on that) and I just don't think there's a way to have the interaction you want. You don't owe him this, not in general or in his grief, because to a narcissist their own feelings are the only thing in the world. The episode with the obituary strikes me as telling - it seems to me that what he wanted was to be the center of attention, and to have someone there look over what he'd written, give him a bunch of credit for making a good start, and then fix it up in a way that kept the focus on him, both in the room and in the obituary itself. He could have participated with everyone else on equal footing, but that wasn't what he wanted.
I wish I had more concrete advice here, but I think the advice other people have had about putting communication on your terms is good. Don't get caught up in trying to help him get on his feet, because if he has you to lean on he will just keep doing that. He will not change unless he has no other choice.
I wish you the best, and I am terribly sorry for your loss.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:01 AM on June 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I wish I had more concrete advice here, but I think the advice other people have had about putting communication on your terms is good. Don't get caught up in trying to help him get on his feet, because if he has you to lean on he will just keep doing that. He will not change unless he has no other choice.
I wish you the best, and I am terribly sorry for your loss.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:01 AM on June 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
So your father’s wife of 40 years died, and he’s flailing around trying to cope with this, and it’s making you unhappy?
At a time like this, his history doesn’t matter. His pain and loneliness trumps yours by two or three orders of magnitude. You need to suck it up and support him. You don’t have to love him - I believe the Bible uses the word “honor”[1] - but he’s recently lost his wife[2]. You may have had a troubled relationship with him, but now is a completely shitty time to consider cutting him off, so that he effectively loses his wife *and* his child?
To me, the text message conversation sounds like he’s trying to make nice. Maybe he’s not good at it - sorta understandable under the circumstances - but he’s trying.
Getting everyone but Dad together to write an obit on his recently passed wife? Here’s a hint: in the future, ask Dad if he’d like to be involved. In everything.
You mentioned going to see a therapist, and I sincerely hope you do, soon, and I hope they are good at their job, and can help you put away the anger and resentment that still torments you.
[1] I don’t believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and I’m not a Bible scholar. But I believe it is significant that the commandment does not say “*love* thy father”.
[2] his wife of 40(!) years. I’ve been married for 25 years - I literally cannot imagine losing someone after 40 years.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:29 PM on June 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
At a time like this, his history doesn’t matter. His pain and loneliness trumps yours by two or three orders of magnitude. You need to suck it up and support him. You don’t have to love him - I believe the Bible uses the word “honor”[1] - but he’s recently lost his wife[2]. You may have had a troubled relationship with him, but now is a completely shitty time to consider cutting him off, so that he effectively loses his wife *and* his child?
To me, the text message conversation sounds like he’s trying to make nice. Maybe he’s not good at it - sorta understandable under the circumstances - but he’s trying.
Getting everyone but Dad together to write an obit on his recently passed wife? Here’s a hint: in the future, ask Dad if he’d like to be involved. In everything.
You mentioned going to see a therapist, and I sincerely hope you do, soon, and I hope they are good at their job, and can help you put away the anger and resentment that still torments you.
[1] I don’t believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, and I’m not a Bible scholar. But I believe it is significant that the commandment does not say “*love* thy father”.
[2] his wife of 40(!) years. I’ve been married for 25 years - I literally cannot imagine losing someone after 40 years.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:29 PM on June 14, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm going to be a little tougher than doctor tough love: by my read you essentially parachuted in and asserted control of everything after having estranged yourself for some time. I think you were rude not to involve him in the obit. I can't imagine how awful that scene was for him.
Most of the women in and around our family have complained to me privately about his behavior, but women in and around the family are skilled at flattering him and deflecting him
Is it possible they were also shining you on? Your brother also has some issue, and since he's not a woman there appears to be something else (not necessarily the same thing) going on here. I think it's significant that the major issues are with (possibly only) his children, so is it possible that Everybody Else just sees your family having dramatic issues and they've gotten good at dealing with all of you in the same way? FWIW, I don't read "put hands on" in your vague descriptions of his prior behavior.
I’m frustrated that my attempt to deflect his neediness by complimenting my partner has failed, resulting in a doubling down on an attempt to get me to center and validate his feelings.
Why couldn't you just let him compliment your partner? I don't think his second text is "centering" so much as reiterating his appreciation, but you have...a strategy you're executing.
The issue is not "My mom died and now my dad is being needy and self centered", it is "My mom died and now my dad is pretending that our relationship is not justifiably fractured along a variety of angles"
Why would he be pretending? He's a "time heals all wounds" guy by your own description! Again, your descriptions of his behavior are vague, so by "wanted her to do all the work," I don't know if this is emotional work, "injecting the medicine" work, or "mowing the lawn" work. All in all, maybe he was simply breaking down the whole way, which you couldn't see because of your distance from the day-to-day.
In an attempt to end on a high note: he isn't going to change, so you can continue to stay away after all of this is over and be happy with your chosen family. Everything will probably just fall back into well-established patterns and routines.
posted by rhizome at 10:46 AM on June 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Most of the women in and around our family have complained to me privately about his behavior, but women in and around the family are skilled at flattering him and deflecting him
Is it possible they were also shining you on? Your brother also has some issue, and since he's not a woman there appears to be something else (not necessarily the same thing) going on here. I think it's significant that the major issues are with (possibly only) his children, so is it possible that Everybody Else just sees your family having dramatic issues and they've gotten good at dealing with all of you in the same way? FWIW, I don't read "put hands on" in your vague descriptions of his prior behavior.
I’m frustrated that my attempt to deflect his neediness by complimenting my partner has failed, resulting in a doubling down on an attempt to get me to center and validate his feelings.
Why couldn't you just let him compliment your partner? I don't think his second text is "centering" so much as reiterating his appreciation, but you have...a strategy you're executing.
The issue is not "My mom died and now my dad is being needy and self centered", it is "My mom died and now my dad is pretending that our relationship is not justifiably fractured along a variety of angles"
Why would he be pretending? He's a "time heals all wounds" guy by your own description! Again, your descriptions of his behavior are vague, so by "wanted her to do all the work," I don't know if this is emotional work, "injecting the medicine" work, or "mowing the lawn" work. All in all, maybe he was simply breaking down the whole way, which you couldn't see because of your distance from the day-to-day.
In an attempt to end on a high note: he isn't going to change, so you can continue to stay away after all of this is over and be happy with your chosen family. Everything will probably just fall back into well-established patterns and routines.
posted by rhizome at 10:46 AM on June 16, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wow this is a frustrating situation, and there's a lot of people it seems in this thread that are making it worse. I'm not really going to respond to anyone, but as a stranger I giver you permission to ignore the other strangers that aren't being helpful and just don't seem to get it. It's okay that they dont. You don't have to listen to them.
My mother is very needy in this way and by god is it infuriating. There is a lot of good advice (despite the bad) up thread. Don't respond to that text. Don't visit anytime soon again, don't give him a false sense of superiority by thinking he was able to manipulate you into a different dynamic. And, yeah, his version of "time heals all wounds" is manipulative. He doesn't want to change or apologize or even think about you in this situation, he just wants routine back to suit his own needs. It doesn't matter that his wife died. (Your mother just died!!) He seemed to be a shitty husband and a shitty father and the way things are (thankfully) going these days, we're no longer in charge of shitty people's feelings regardless of the amount of shared DNA. the level of self-centeredness of these people is astounding. Regarding the text - it wasn't even good enough for you to say he was right, he wanted to be praised or applauded for noticing someone else did something nice. You don't need this in your life
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:54 AM on June 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
My mother is very needy in this way and by god is it infuriating. There is a lot of good advice (despite the bad) up thread. Don't respond to that text. Don't visit anytime soon again, don't give him a false sense of superiority by thinking he was able to manipulate you into a different dynamic. And, yeah, his version of "time heals all wounds" is manipulative. He doesn't want to change or apologize or even think about you in this situation, he just wants routine back to suit his own needs. It doesn't matter that his wife died. (Your mother just died!!) He seemed to be a shitty husband and a shitty father and the way things are (thankfully) going these days, we're no longer in charge of shitty people's feelings regardless of the amount of shared DNA. the level of self-centeredness of these people is astounding. Regarding the text - it wasn't even good enough for you to say he was right, he wanted to be praised or applauded for noticing someone else did something nice. You don't need this in your life
posted by FirstMateKate at 9:54 AM on June 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
A belated addition: one of the rabbinic interpretations of "honoring one's parents" and "pursuing peace" is not having a million irritating little fights, but reacting in ways that minimize ongoing harm. If you cannot share a peaceful home with your father because he treats your partner very badly, honor him by getting out of his life, for good.
Culturally xtian abuse apologists love, love, love to pretend scripture means "let this guy hurt people, forgive, and forget," and imo they are all jerks I wouldn't knowingly give the time of day to, either.
posted by bagel at 12:51 PM on June 23, 2019
Culturally xtian abuse apologists love, love, love to pretend scripture means "let this guy hurt people, forgive, and forget," and imo they are all jerks I wouldn't knowingly give the time of day to, either.
posted by bagel at 12:51 PM on June 23, 2019
Response by poster: This thread has been very helpful, thank you all for your contributions. There is a lot of really good advice here from a lot of different perspectives, and even the completely terrible advice has been useful in its way. I'm having a hard time picking 'best' answers and I'm just going to let everything stand together.
posted by Kwine at 8:02 AM on June 25, 2019
posted by Kwine at 8:02 AM on June 25, 2019
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posted by xingcat at 9:02 AM on June 13, 2019 [13 favorites]