To Tree Or Not To Tree
June 2, 2019 4:52 PM Subscribe
The City of Toronto planted a tulip tree, which is one of the largest species of trees native to the eastern U.S., in the tiny front yard of the house that is attached to mine, and they claim it won't be a problem. I'm hoping some of you have the knowledge to tell me whether it will be or not.
After the tree was planted and I researched it and was very concerned about its potential size, my neighbour told me she had no choice in the matter, that she was sent a notice in the mail but that she assumed it was just some flyer and never looked at it, and then when the work crew showed up to plant the tree they told her the tree planting was mandatory.
I first called 311, and then sent this email to my ward councillor (indentifying info is redacted):
Councillor So-and-So,
I live in your ward, at XXX Somewhere Avenue, which is one of a set of three attached houses. Next door to me, at YYY Somewhere Avenue, there used to be a large old Manitoba Maple tree, the roots of which had caused some serious problems with my plumbing. I wound up with a plumbing bill of over $7000 in 2016, which I was forced to borrow as I am really struggling financially at present. According to my neighbour from the third house in the set, ZZZ Somewhere Avenue, the maple tree had also caused thousands of dollars' worth of problems with her plumbing in some year prior to that. It was a relief when the city removed the Manitoba Maple tree in 2018.
Then within this past week, the city planted a tulip tree in the front yard of YYY Somewhere Avenue to replace the Manitoba Maple. I googled "tulip tree" out of curiosity to see what it would look like when full grown as I don't believe I've ever seen one before. My internet research tells me tulip trees are very beautiful... and that they are also huge.
By way of comparison, Manitoba Maples, which proved too large for the front yard of YYY Somewhere, usually grow to be 35 to 80 feet tall with a trunk of 12 to 20 inches in diameter, and sometimes have a trunk as large as 3 feet in diameter. Tulip trees are significantly larger than Manitoba Maples. They ordinarily grow to 70 to 100 feet tall, have been known to grow as high as 191.9 feet tall, and have a trunk 4 to 6 feet in diameter.
(All of these figures are from Wikipedia, and you can check them yourself if you wish by looking at the entries for Manitoba Maples and Tulip trees, respectively.)
I also read this on eHow, in an article about tulip tree root systems:
The tulip tree's large size and narrowly oval shape above ground is mirrored by its root system underground. For example, the crown of a mature tulip tree can be about 100 feet tall and 30 feet wide. The root system would also be 100 feet deep and 30 feet wide, according to the Miami University Department of Botany. For this reason, Ohio State University recommends planting this tree away from house foundations and power lines. It is a tree more suited to parks, forests and open spaces.
(Here is the link to the eHow article I am referencing.)
I have attached two photos of the tulip tree in question to this email. As you can see, the tulip tree is within ten feet of my neighbour's house, and mine. There are also power lines right next to it. This tulip tree is going to be seriously problematic when it matures -- in a worst case scenario, it could potentially damage the foundations of three houses beyond repair. But when I called 311 earlier today, while the operator seemed to be personally persuaded by my research and reasoning, she told me that when she spoke to those in forestry management they insisted the tulip tree was a "mandatory tree" and could not be removed, or replaced with a tree small enough to be suitable for the spot it's in.
I do not understand how those who manage the city's forestry affairs could possibly think it is a good idea to plant such an especially large species of tree, with both a root system and a crown of 30 feet in diameter, that is specifically not recommended for planting close to houses and power lines, so very close to three houses and power lines, especially when it's replacing a smaller tree that was causing serious problems.
I am hoping there is something you can do in your capacity as ward councillor to resolve this matter, or that you can at least advise me on what to do to appeal the planting of this tulip tree.
I can be reached at this email or at the phone number xxx-xxx-xxxx.
Regards,
Orange Swan
After a wait of two weeks, I received this reply:
Hi Orange,
I hope this email finds you well.
Forestry replied to my email, and they explained the following:
-- YYY Somewhere would be subject to the mandatory replacement planting due to the removal of the Maple. A notice of planting was delivered to that address and there are no records of the residents contacting us for further information.
-- The resident at XXX's internet search resulted in some misleading information. The maximum sizes he found do not reflect the realistic growth of the Tulip in Toronto's urban conditions. Toronto's street trees virtually never achieve maximum growth potential, which would certainly be the case here. Additionally, the Tulip's root system is non-aggressive and would not interfere with pipes in good condition. It's behaviour is quite different from the removed Norway Maple, a type of tree which the City no longer plants due to some undesirable characteristics.
-- An image of the Maple before it as removed shows it to be of a good size, but the planted Tulip would take a few decades to reach a similar size, if it ever does. Given the location of the replacement planting and the nature of the Tulip's growth, I do not see cause for concern. As the resident mentioned the Tulip was 'beautiful' (and, indeed, it's a lovely tree), I hope this new information alleviates the concerns and he can enjoy it in the future.
I hope this was able to clarify this issue. Please let me know if you have any questions or further concerns.
I'm not entirely reassured. It seems I did get the species of the maple tree slightly wrong, that it was a Norway Maple rather than a Manitoba Maple, and according to the Wikipedia entry, Norway Maples are larger than the Manitoba Maple, and more comparable in size to the Tulip tree. So, perhaps a tree of comparable size with a less invasive root system will be fine. But I would like a second, disinterested opinion before I let the matter drop. Are there any knowledgeable arborist types among you who can speak to whether this tree species is appropriate for such a small space?
After the tree was planted and I researched it and was very concerned about its potential size, my neighbour told me she had no choice in the matter, that she was sent a notice in the mail but that she assumed it was just some flyer and never looked at it, and then when the work crew showed up to plant the tree they told her the tree planting was mandatory.
I first called 311, and then sent this email to my ward councillor (indentifying info is redacted):
Councillor So-and-So,
I live in your ward, at XXX Somewhere Avenue, which is one of a set of three attached houses. Next door to me, at YYY Somewhere Avenue, there used to be a large old Manitoba Maple tree, the roots of which had caused some serious problems with my plumbing. I wound up with a plumbing bill of over $7000 in 2016, which I was forced to borrow as I am really struggling financially at present. According to my neighbour from the third house in the set, ZZZ Somewhere Avenue, the maple tree had also caused thousands of dollars' worth of problems with her plumbing in some year prior to that. It was a relief when the city removed the Manitoba Maple tree in 2018.
Then within this past week, the city planted a tulip tree in the front yard of YYY Somewhere Avenue to replace the Manitoba Maple. I googled "tulip tree" out of curiosity to see what it would look like when full grown as I don't believe I've ever seen one before. My internet research tells me tulip trees are very beautiful... and that they are also huge.
By way of comparison, Manitoba Maples, which proved too large for the front yard of YYY Somewhere, usually grow to be 35 to 80 feet tall with a trunk of 12 to 20 inches in diameter, and sometimes have a trunk as large as 3 feet in diameter. Tulip trees are significantly larger than Manitoba Maples. They ordinarily grow to 70 to 100 feet tall, have been known to grow as high as 191.9 feet tall, and have a trunk 4 to 6 feet in diameter.
(All of these figures are from Wikipedia, and you can check them yourself if you wish by looking at the entries for Manitoba Maples and Tulip trees, respectively.)
I also read this on eHow, in an article about tulip tree root systems:
The tulip tree's large size and narrowly oval shape above ground is mirrored by its root system underground. For example, the crown of a mature tulip tree can be about 100 feet tall and 30 feet wide. The root system would also be 100 feet deep and 30 feet wide, according to the Miami University Department of Botany. For this reason, Ohio State University recommends planting this tree away from house foundations and power lines. It is a tree more suited to parks, forests and open spaces.
(Here is the link to the eHow article I am referencing.)
I have attached two photos of the tulip tree in question to this email. As you can see, the tulip tree is within ten feet of my neighbour's house, and mine. There are also power lines right next to it. This tulip tree is going to be seriously problematic when it matures -- in a worst case scenario, it could potentially damage the foundations of three houses beyond repair. But when I called 311 earlier today, while the operator seemed to be personally persuaded by my research and reasoning, she told me that when she spoke to those in forestry management they insisted the tulip tree was a "mandatory tree" and could not be removed, or replaced with a tree small enough to be suitable for the spot it's in.
I do not understand how those who manage the city's forestry affairs could possibly think it is a good idea to plant such an especially large species of tree, with both a root system and a crown of 30 feet in diameter, that is specifically not recommended for planting close to houses and power lines, so very close to three houses and power lines, especially when it's replacing a smaller tree that was causing serious problems.
I am hoping there is something you can do in your capacity as ward councillor to resolve this matter, or that you can at least advise me on what to do to appeal the planting of this tulip tree.
I can be reached at this email or at the phone number xxx-xxx-xxxx.
Regards,
Orange Swan
After a wait of two weeks, I received this reply:
Hi Orange,
I hope this email finds you well.
Forestry replied to my email, and they explained the following:
-- YYY Somewhere would be subject to the mandatory replacement planting due to the removal of the Maple. A notice of planting was delivered to that address and there are no records of the residents contacting us for further information.
-- The resident at XXX's internet search resulted in some misleading information. The maximum sizes he found do not reflect the realistic growth of the Tulip in Toronto's urban conditions. Toronto's street trees virtually never achieve maximum growth potential, which would certainly be the case here. Additionally, the Tulip's root system is non-aggressive and would not interfere with pipes in good condition. It's behaviour is quite different from the removed Norway Maple, a type of tree which the City no longer plants due to some undesirable characteristics.
-- An image of the Maple before it as removed shows it to be of a good size, but the planted Tulip would take a few decades to reach a similar size, if it ever does. Given the location of the replacement planting and the nature of the Tulip's growth, I do not see cause for concern. As the resident mentioned the Tulip was 'beautiful' (and, indeed, it's a lovely tree), I hope this new information alleviates the concerns and he can enjoy it in the future.
I hope this was able to clarify this issue. Please let me know if you have any questions or further concerns.
I'm not entirely reassured. It seems I did get the species of the maple tree slightly wrong, that it was a Norway Maple rather than a Manitoba Maple, and according to the Wikipedia entry, Norway Maples are larger than the Manitoba Maple, and more comparable in size to the Tulip tree. So, perhaps a tree of comparable size with a less invasive root system will be fine. But I would like a second, disinterested opinion before I let the matter drop. Are there any knowledgeable arborist types among you who can speak to whether this tree species is appropriate for such a small space?
We have quite a few magnolias on our street (it might make you feel better to refer to them by their more common Toronto name). I’ve been here 13 years and they haven’t grown half as much as the red maple in front of my house. I think you’ll be fine.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:31 PM on June 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 5:31 PM on June 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
I am not an arborist. I like the tulip trees I have lived near in the northeastern US, but they were not nearly as big as you describe - maybe 50 feet tall.
The Wikipedia page you linked indicates the genus includes two known species. The Chinese tulip tree is "not as hardy" as the American one, but is used as a street tree in British Columbia. The American tulip tree doesn't grow further north than Rhode Island in the wild, and "a few nurseries in Finland offer this species even though it is not fully hardy there and tends to be held to shrub form." The same page says "The tree's tall and rapid growth is a function of its shade intolerance. Grown in the full sun, the species tends to grow shorter, slower, and rounder, making it adaptable to landscape planting."
It sounds possible you're going to get a gigantic tree, but much more likely that the tree will be a reasonable size.
posted by bagel at 5:36 PM on June 2, 2019
The Wikipedia page you linked indicates the genus includes two known species. The Chinese tulip tree is "not as hardy" as the American one, but is used as a street tree in British Columbia. The American tulip tree doesn't grow further north than Rhode Island in the wild, and "a few nurseries in Finland offer this species even though it is not fully hardy there and tends to be held to shrub form." The same page says "The tree's tall and rapid growth is a function of its shade intolerance. Grown in the full sun, the species tends to grow shorter, slower, and rounder, making it adaptable to landscape planting."
It sounds possible you're going to get a gigantic tree, but much more likely that the tree will be a reasonable size.
posted by bagel at 5:36 PM on June 2, 2019
Do you know if this is a standard tree form or fastigiate \ narrow? I have specified the narrow form in urban sites in past as they are only about 6` canopy diameter.
posted by unearthed at 5:55 PM on June 2, 2019
posted by unearthed at 5:55 PM on June 2, 2019
As this is a mandatory replacement tree and the City received no timely response to the notice of planting, from the City's point of view there's no matter for you to drop. Damage from city trees to underground works inside your property line is always at your cost.
This magnolia's about to become your new favourite tree. If it dies or fails to thrive, City forestry will be on your case. Maples are almost as bad as willows for getting into drains, so I can see why the old one was removed.
posted by scruss at 5:58 PM on June 2, 2019 [7 favorites]
This magnolia's about to become your new favourite tree. If it dies or fails to thrive, City forestry will be on your case. Maples are almost as bad as willows for getting into drains, so I can see why the old one was removed.
posted by scruss at 5:58 PM on June 2, 2019 [7 favorites]
We had a Norway maple in our front yard. It was fairly large, I'd guess 30-40 feet. It was in pretty rough shape and when the city decided to take it down we got a choice of 6-8 options for replacement. My husband ( who is a PhD botanist) wasn't impressed with the options and called a specifically ordered a tulip poplar. It is a species that is standardly in our city's nursery, not sure why it wasn't on the list for us. Anyway it is planted in front of our house, probably twenty feet from the front door and almost immediately on top of our sewer line. It is four or five years old and not very tall yet. I think this will be the first year it has more than one bloom. It is a much much nicer tree than the Norway maple and we haven't had any issues with our pipes. In Milwaukee by the way.
posted by sulaine at 6:36 PM on June 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by sulaine at 6:36 PM on June 2, 2019 [5 favorites]
In Toronto, Tulip Trees do not get anywhere close to the sizes you’ve identified since they are at the very north end of their range. They grow slowly and stay relatively short, and their roots are generally not a problem. In your situation I would not be particularly concerned
They are, in fact, far less problematic than Norway maples, which have a tendency to bind their own roots (one or two roots will circle the others limiting their outward growth), which makes them very unstable and likely to fall.
IANAA (I am not an arborist), but I do have considerable Toronto-specific knowledge of native and non-native tree species.
posted by scrute at 7:42 PM on June 2, 2019 [9 favorites]
They are, in fact, far less problematic than Norway maples, which have a tendency to bind their own roots (one or two roots will circle the others limiting their outward growth), which makes them very unstable and likely to fall.
IANAA (I am not an arborist), but I do have considerable Toronto-specific knowledge of native and non-native tree species.
posted by scrute at 7:42 PM on June 2, 2019 [9 favorites]
I can’t speak to size, but in Minneapolis the local forestry non-profit partners with the city and offers trees to residents at low cost, and this year they had tulip trees as one of their options. They said it was hardy to zone 5 and good for adventurous people looking to try something new in the face of climate change. I don’t think the city forestry department is planting tulip trees anywhere yet as we are still zone 4, but I bet they are interested in seeing how the early adopters do. You can see the tulip tree description if you scroll down a bunch here.
I lost a horrible Norway Maple on our boulevard last week (it had existing root girdling but then decided to completely die over the winter), and the forester and I chose a swamp white oak as a replacement because that corner floods a lot. We also lost 4 ash trees on the boulevard, and I got to choose 3 of the replacements (1 serviceberry and 2 river birches) and then got stuck with a ginkgo tree, which I am not happy about. But in 30 years it will be someone else’s problem, and it’s a tiny stick now. Also, one of the old ash trees was planted within 2 feet of the sewer line to our house, and each time we’ve had sewer line problems the rooter guys have been shocked to find absolutely zero roots in the line. Trees are mysterious.
posted by Maarika at 9:02 PM on June 2, 2019
I lost a horrible Norway Maple on our boulevard last week (it had existing root girdling but then decided to completely die over the winter), and the forester and I chose a swamp white oak as a replacement because that corner floods a lot. We also lost 4 ash trees on the boulevard, and I got to choose 3 of the replacements (1 serviceberry and 2 river birches) and then got stuck with a ginkgo tree, which I am not happy about. But in 30 years it will be someone else’s problem, and it’s a tiny stick now. Also, one of the old ash trees was planted within 2 feet of the sewer line to our house, and each time we’ve had sewer line problems the rooter guys have been shocked to find absolutely zero roots in the line. Trees are mysterious.
posted by Maarika at 9:02 PM on June 2, 2019
I had a big tulip tree in my yard at my last house - maybe 3' in diameter and well taller than the 3 story house - it caused no problems in terms of roots. It did routinely drop branches at any big storm though and its twin in the neighbor's yard fell on their house early one morning - did not have a deep root system. Both of those trees were really huge when we moved in more than 30 years ago so you've got lots of time before dealing with a big tree.
posted by leslies at 6:57 AM on June 3, 2019
posted by leslies at 6:57 AM on June 3, 2019
I live in Virginia, and we used to have a bunch of Tulip Poplars in our yard. I say used to because, though tall, they had shallow root systems that didn't withstand the drenching rain and high winds of a hurricane that blew threw several years ago. On the plus side, the shallow roots meant that we never had any issues with our water lines or other underground utilities. YMMV, of course.
posted by jenny76 at 7:59 AM on June 3, 2019
posted by jenny76 at 7:59 AM on June 3, 2019
I am in New Jersey and have probably 10 or more tulip trees throughout my yard and adjoining woods. I have been in my house for 20 years, and during that time, the trees have grown very, very, very slowly.
While it seems a little close to the house, I think you'll likely be fine. In 20 years, the most mature tree is likely 60-70 feet tall, and it was a pretty decent size when we moved in, maybe 50-60 feet tall.
They grow slowly, and do have nice flowers in the spring. The only thing you may have issue with is the spread once it gets 25-30 feet tall, the lower branches might be wide enough to reach the house. But again - probably not for 10 years from now.
posted by rich at 10:46 AM on June 3, 2019
While it seems a little close to the house, I think you'll likely be fine. In 20 years, the most mature tree is likely 60-70 feet tall, and it was a pretty decent size when we moved in, maybe 50-60 feet tall.
They grow slowly, and do have nice flowers in the spring. The only thing you may have issue with is the spread once it gets 25-30 feet tall, the lower branches might be wide enough to reach the house. But again - probably not for 10 years from now.
posted by rich at 10:46 AM on June 3, 2019
Response by poster: Update: the tulip tree has died.
No, I did not have anything to do with its demise.
posted by orange swan at 11:31 AM on October 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
No, I did not have anything to do with its demise.
posted by orange swan at 11:31 AM on October 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by solotoro at 5:23 PM on June 2, 2019