Managers Pushing Me To Leave Union
May 30, 2019 1:53 PM   Subscribe

I'm being pressured to leave the union by high-level mangers. Freaking out a bit and I'm not sure what to do.

I've been in my current job for about eight months. Recently my direct supervisor left, and there's been no replacement for her as far as I or any of my co-workers can find out.

The other day I received a call from a manager who was my former supervisor's boss. This person is my manager too. I haven't met them in person. We talked for about twenty minutes. The chat was winding down, when they suddenly asked me about my union status. I had been pretty open to this point without any self-consciousness about certain aspects of my job -- including one particular thing I have, a sort of special perk, that my former supervisor approved for me though it's officially against company policy.

This person started asking me how I feel about the union. They told me that I had a choice about whether or not to be in it. This was news to me. When I got hired, my supervisor said I would immediately be joining the union. That's also what the shop steward said, that it's mandatory not optional.

This person said, the dues are a bit high. I agreed, but there are benefits to being in the union. I approve of unions because employees have so few protections otherwise. I see what's been happening to workers at the hands of large corporations. Management has little to no incentive to treat employees fairly unless they're compelled to. I've worked in union jobs before, and unions are not without their own problems. But I'm all for them philosophically -- and since I'm already in one, I can't really come up with a good reason to sever the association.

Some background -- a month ago our union won a raise for employees who were making slightly above minimum wage. I made a bit more than that so it didn't affect me, but I was all for it. We also got a cost of living raise. Not life-changing, but we hadn't been getting those before. I was asked to vote before the negotiations, and I voted for the changes. The union people had asked for more concessions, but the fact that they were able to get these things was a victory, considering the company was known for being none too generous with compensation for non-managers.

I perhaps misinterpreted, but it seems this manager was implying to me that they would take my special perk away if I didn't agree to drop my union status. They want me to decide on this soon.

I worked at a union company before, so I know managers are not supposed to be pressuring employees this way. But I'm a bit intimidated, because I'm new-ish and things had been going well to this point. These people are my managers and will affect my lifespan at the company. Except for this one strange episode, I've been happy overall. And I really need the job.

I was thinking of asking for a raise or promotion in return for leaving the union. A friend of mine on the job is a manager. He told me he's not in the union because he's in management. So if they want to make me a manager, the whole problem would pretty much disappear. I have 20 years' experience in my field and I would be qualified for a better position. I'm thinking of asking to be considered for the job of my supervisor, who just left. Not that I love the idea of working for folks who act like thugs with no qualms about putting me in a super-uncomfortable position, but I really need to stay employed.

I'm not sure how much leverage I have right now. I'm thinking probably zero. I would appreciate the thoughts of anyone with experience in unions. Thanks!
posted by cartoonella to Work & Money (37 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Talk to your rep! Tell them about this: it seems this manager was implying to me that they would take my special perk away if I didn't agree to drop my union status
posted by capricorn at 2:00 PM on May 30, 2019 [50 favorites]


I agree with capricorn. Definitely talk to your rep.
I sort of wonder if he wasn’t feeling you out to see if you’d fit in as the replacement for your departed supervisor?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:08 PM on May 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


The single most important reason you're in a union is to have the protection of solidarity when someone tries to single you out. Speak to your union representative as soon as possible, and discuss what you need to get in writing to them. They don't have to take this any further, but you absolutely want to have a record of your concerns in a proper written form.
posted by howfar at 2:11 PM on May 30, 2019 [8 favorites]


Did you start your job before June 2018? Prior to the supreme court decision in Janus vs ASFCME which was issued then, both members and non-members paid dues under the logic that union protections apply to members and non-members alike. Its possible this is what your shop steward meant?

I was thinking of asking for a raise or promotion in return for leaving the union

Dont do that, for the sake of your coworkers. Leave the union if you join management, but creating a middle tier just plays into their hands.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 2:17 PM on May 30, 2019 [31 favorites]


It's a totally different industry that I am in, but for us (Australian Education Union) it is a myth that management can't be in the union. My boss is in my union. Of course they have to be sensitive to the perceptions, (of staff, since they represent the department) so don't go to the meetings, but the union is there to protect them too.

Together we are stronger. They know this and try to break up unions many different ways, sticks and carrots.

Echoing the above, talk to your rep.
posted by freethefeet at 2:24 PM on May 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


I was thinking of asking for a raise or promotion in return for leaving the union. A friend of mine on the job is a manager. He told me he's not in the union because he's in management. ...Not that I love the idea of working for folks who act like thugs with no qualms about putting me in a super-uncomfortable position, but I really need to stay employed.

I will leave the ethical issues aside, but...you think people you already think "act like thugs" are going to treat you better when you have fewer legal protections? Really???
posted by praemunire at 2:25 PM on May 30, 2019 [33 favorites]


I think people generally overestimate the consequences of saying 'no' to their managers. A good manager will take it in stride, a shitty manager won't, but the shitty manager's latent shittiness was always there lurking under the surface anyway, now you're just aware of it. Either way, it doesn't change the situation that much. All that's removed is the veneer, the ability to deceive yourself into thinking that your manager is somebody they're not (in the case of them proving that they're crap).

So I would push back and just politely decline, and then see what they do.

Since you are in the union, perhaps this is something you want to discuss with your rep or shop steward? It seems like something they might want to know about.

As far as the "taking a raise to leave the union" thing, I would certainly be a bit careful; it sounds like something of a dick move, and I wouldn't want to leave the union only to have the promised raise/promotion not manifest itself, or for that raise to suddenly disappear in the future (in the next "reorg", is the usual way).

If you're going to make a deal with the Devil, be sure you're getting it in writing and reading all the fine print. I won't say that I haven't ever made some iffy deals in my career, but I'd be really careful you're getting something very substantial out of it, not just a few bucks and a meaningless title change.
posted by Kadin2048 at 2:30 PM on May 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


They say our day is over; they say our time is through,
They say you need no union if your collar isn't blue,
Well that is just another lie the boss is telling you,
For the Union makes us strong!


If you think they'd be willing to give you a raise or a promotion to leave the union, they must really hate it. If you're new, they probably wouldn't even offer that deal to keep you from outright quitting. I'd be sticking with the union.
posted by teremala at 2:31 PM on May 30, 2019 [4 favorites]


Getting promoted to management could change the OP's bargaining unit or make them ineligible for their current one - I don't think we have enough information to know.

Talk to your rep (not email or voicemail until you decide you want this documented), about the offer and about the union structure (is it mandatory, can managers be in it). They may also know if other folks are getting these kind of union-busting offers, it may not just be you.

If your manager brings it up again, I'd innocently ask them to email you with the details.
posted by momus_window at 2:47 PM on May 30, 2019 [4 favorites]


I just want to point out that you don’t know whether your manager is taking it upon himself to do this (maybe he had strong negative personal feelings about unions) or whether it’s some company-approved strategy (whether explicitly or more subtly). Because of that he could be doing something that could endanger his own status at the company, and he might not have the ability to give you any particular benefit like a promotion in return for your choice to leave the union. I’d be really really careful dealing with the manager. I also wouldn’t take his or anyone else’s spoken word for it if you did make an agreement to leave the union in return for a benefit. This is a really tricky scenario...
posted by sallybrown at 2:50 PM on May 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


This is a very tricky situation. I do suspect they might be feeling you out to see if you are management material. Some of this line of questioning, though, skirts the boundaries of the TIPS employers must observe. The points he is making are sort of standard-playbook anti-union points, but they are not untrue. However they should probably not be interrogating you at all, and this sounds a bit like interrogation.

I was thinking of asking for a raise or promotion in return for leaving the union.

Bargaining by using the union as a chip is a bad idea for many reasons. For one, any such agreement violates the prohibition on "promises" made by employers as incentive for dropping support of the union. However, you would be safe saying something like "I am a member now as I understand it is required for my position as the position is in the bargaining group, but of course, if I were to become a manager I would leave the union."

The single most important reason you're in a union is to have the protection of solidarity when someone tries to single you out.

While this is true, the downside of unions is that sometimes, you want to be singled out - in a positive way - for promotion or projects, and unfortunately, unions do not always exist to facilitate that sort of growth. Unions do have benefits but it is important to recognize that they are also self-perpetuating organizations that seek to accrue strength and power, just as managements do. If you want a managerial position, you will find at some point that your interests need to go in a different direction than the interests of the union, which are to keep your position unionized, and essentially keep you in that position or another union position.

I have 20 years' experience in my field and I would be qualified for a better position. I'm thinking of asking to be considered for the job of my supervisor

So just ask to be considered. Take the initiative and don't have that conversation in the context of a conversation about the union. Keep the two very separate other than to say you will follow the guidelines in the bargaining agreement that govern which positions are unionized in your workplace and which are not.
posted by Miko at 3:17 PM on May 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


you will find at some point that your interests need to go in a different direction than the interests of the union, which are to keep your position unionized, and essentially keep you in that position or another union position

The union doesn't much care if you, personally, get a promotion to managerial status. The collective bargaining agreement clearly will envision positions that are included or not included, and preventing employees from rising to an existing managerial position will not stop those positions from continuing to exist and being nonunion. The union cares about the position you hold staying unionized. The idea that unions are as a matter of policy out there trying to prevent people from progressing in their careers is some corporate nonsense.
posted by praemunire at 3:44 PM on May 30, 2019 [10 favorites]


National Labor Relations Act (excerpt):
RIGHTS OF EMPLOYEES
Sec. 7. [§ 157.] Employees shall have the right to self-organization, to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection, and shall also have the right to refrain from any or all of such activities except to the extent that such right may be affected by an agreement requiring membership in a labor organization as a condition of employment as authorized in section 8(a)(3) [section 158(a)(3) of this title].

UNFAIR LABOR PRACTICES
Sec. 8. [§ 158.] (a) [Unfair labor practices by employer] It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer--
(1) to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed in section 7 [section 157 of this title];

[…]

(3) by discrimination in regard to hire or tenure of employment or any term or condition of employment to encourage or discourage membership in any labor organization:
You might want to mention that conversation to your union steward since it's getting pretty close to an unfair labor practice.

I'd also say, your union might not be happy with this:

certain aspects of my job -- including one particular thing I have, a sort of special perk, that my former supervisor approved for me though it's officially against company policy

since directly dealing with management on an individual basis about working conditions could be considered a union bypass, especially if that "perk" is not available to other bargaining unit members.
posted by ctmf at 4:32 PM on May 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


The union cares about the position you hold staying unionized.

Well, and not being eliminated when the employee moves up, which would mean the loss of a unionized position. That is one reason unions don’t generally create feeder pathways upward and one reason to curtail direct dealing.
posted by Miko at 4:32 PM on May 30, 2019 [1 favorite]


I was thinking of asking for a raise or promotion in return for leaving the union.

Yikes, no. Or at least, you can't frame it that way. If they offer you that deal, it's a straight-up no brainer unfair labor practice.

Now, if they offer you a promotion, and that promotion makes you ineligible to be in the bargaining unit, that's a different thing. It's not making a deal though, it's just what happens.
posted by ctmf at 4:36 PM on May 30, 2019 [4 favorites]


I was thinking of asking for a raise or promotion in return for leaving the union.

This is literally selling out your coworkers.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 4:43 PM on May 30, 2019 [20 favorites]


Yeah, if you get a raise or promotion (to a position still in the bargaining unit) in return for a promise to leave the union and the union finds out, they will have a spectacular meltdown. The company will get sa-LAMMED with a ULP charge, which they will most likely lose. Even the lately-very-management-friendly NLRB won't be able to justify that. The union will also be none too happy with YOU, thinking exactly like I. J. Reilly. Although there's really nothing they can do officially to you about it, since you have the right to belong or not belong for any reason you want, unofficially...


Either quit the union or don't quit the union, but it's a choice you make on your own, not something you bargain with management about.
posted by ctmf at 5:02 PM on May 30, 2019 [4 favorites]


Response by poster: Thanks so much for your input, guys. I haven't spoken with our shop steward yet because I'm afraid of the manager, and of possible retaliation. I know the shop steward would have a meltdown over this, and he wouldn't be wrong. I don't want to be rapped on the knuckles for having handled this wrong. I'm afraid of the shop steward too!

I think I'll wait to see if management contacts anyone else. I don't think the manager could keep this under wraps indefinitely if they're contacting other employees too.

I'm just feeling a bit sick and hemmed in, because :

- If I stay in the union, management doesn't like me
- If I report this conversation (which was over the phone, making me thing they knew it was underhanded) to the shop steward, then management REALLY doesn't like me
- If I quit the union, I don't like myself -- and I have no protections, and no guarantee of better treatment by management

Thanks for pointing out that dropping my status for a promotion might make me look like a sellout to my co-workers, I hadn't thought of it that.

Definitely leaning toward not falling for this trap.

Thanks again, you guys rock :-)
posted by cartoonella at 5:56 PM on May 30, 2019 [3 favorites]


Did you start your job before June 2018? Prior to the supreme court decision in Janus vs ASFCME which was issued then, both members and non-members paid dues under the logic that union protections apply to members and non-members alike. Its possible this is what your shop steward meant?

Assuming the OP is based in the US - Just want to point out that the Janus decision applies to public sector union workplaces. I do not believe that the outcomes of Janus extend to private sector union workplaces at this time.

OP, thanks for the update. I know this feels really scary, but just remember: united we bargain, divided we beg. I think your instincts are right for not falling into what appears to be a trap. In the long run, unions where the workers stick together have gained more in the long haul for workers than individuals who take a one-off deal. Contracts are far more binding than managers' promises!
posted by mostly vowels at 6:19 PM on May 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


Well, not really a solution to the problem, more like avoidance, but could you just pay your dues for the year right now and then when management asks, say you are already paid up for the year but will be happy to talk about it in 2020. Things will probably have changed by then.
posted by MountainDaisy at 6:22 PM on May 30, 2019 [4 favorites]


I perhaps misinterpreted, but it seems this manager was implying to me that they would take my special perk away if I didn't agree to drop my union status. They want me to decide on this soon.

Maybe I missed something but did your special perk come up at any point in time during the conversation? And also I'm not clear... what are they wanting you to decide on? I would just be stubborn and be like "Just gonna keep things like they are" which is a position that requires, imo, less defending than making a change.

Management, generally speaking, don't like unions and they'll often do whatever they can to weaken them. Trying to please management isn't a really winning strategy. If they want to promote you, then you'd have to leave the union (right?). If it were me I'd be a bit more like "Look, the union protects me in the position I am in now and the cost is not that much. If I were in a different position I might feel differently" which just sort of kicks the can down the field a little ("maybe ask me again later") but also doesn't make you do something you don't want to do right now.
posted by jessamyn at 6:28 PM on May 30, 2019 [5 favorites]


I'm not sure how much leverage I have right now. I'm thinking probably zero.

That's what you have when you're not represented by a union: zero. Luckily, you're in the union. Whether you want to use it or not, don't give away the leverage you do have. (As a manager, let's pretend I never said that)

On the other hand, I'm not sure what the manager thinks he has to gain by getting you to quit the union, since you would still be in the bargaining unit. The union is the exclusive representative for everyone in the bargaining unit, whether or not they are members. Membership lets you vote for officers, etc. but you don't have to be a member to be represented.

The only thing I can think is to try to starve the union of funds by reducing membership. If they think they can get enough people to quit and then get the union decertified, that's unlikely to work.
posted by ctmf at 6:46 PM on May 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


The collective bargaining agreement clearly will envision positions that are included or not included, and preventing employees from rising to an existing managerial position will not stop those positions from continuing to exist and being nonunion. The union cares about the position you hold staying unionized. The idea that unions are as a matter of policy out there trying to prevent people from progressing in their careers is some corporate nonsense.

Yes, but sometimes no, especially when you have a workplace where non-managerial employees may be represented by more than one bargaining unit depending on inclusion criteria or are a combination of unionized and non-unionized. If an employee takes on a new role that leads to a change in bargaining unit status, there's often a risk that their previous role may be eliminated and that bargaining unit loses strength. This is probably more common when moving from one non-managerial position to another (or a supervisory role, which may still be bargaining unit-eligible) within a department.

Collective bargaining agreements can be structured in ways that inadvertently hurt union membership as the work their members perform changes or becomes more professionalized. Unions that are in this situation will most certainly work to hang onto every position they can.
posted by blerghamot at 7:27 PM on May 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: Great responses, guys. You are helping me A LOT!

Hi Jessamyn -- Sorry, I wasn't clear on the perk . My former supervisor told this manager about it before she left. She told him she granted it as a favor to me, and because it makes me more flexible and available for fill- in (which they constantly need because they're understaffed). So it's a benefit for them as well, though the official policy doesn't permit it.

So the manager wants me to decide about whether to leave the union soon, like by next week.

I do like your response about being open and just saying hey, I've got protections now and it works for me. I can't help feeling that if this manager were a parent of mine, he wouldn't want his kid to accept an offer like this. I feel targeted. Do they take me for an idiot because I'm new? It's so dumb. I mean, it's not even an offer. It's like someone coming up to me and asking me if I want a punch in the face. They're not even pretending there's anything in it for me.
posted by cartoonella at 7:28 PM on May 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: Hi ctmf -- interesting, that's true, I would still be represented by the union even if I stopped paying dues. Good point. Nothing makes sense about this.

Thanks again, and I'm done threadsitting ;-)
posted by cartoonella at 7:32 PM on May 30, 2019


So the manager wants me to decide about whether to leave the union soon, like by next week.

That's the weirdest part to me, like, what's the rush? What happens in a week? I know they aren't trying to imply that's a factor in filling the supervisor position, because that would be an egregious ULP. So much so, I might just straight out ask, are you implying I have a better chance at the supervisor position if I'm not a union member?

Anyway, interesting question, and I'm threadsitting too. If you figure it out, update us! Good luck.
posted by ctmf at 7:47 PM on May 30, 2019 [2 favorites]


So the manager wants me to decide about whether to leave the union soon, like by next week.

Take this to your rep/steward immediately.
posted by praemunire at 10:32 PM on May 30, 2019 [9 favorites]


Any time there is pressure to make the decision in a hurry and no valid reason is given it is a strong arm tactic. It may be that your manager wants your decision before the meeting on the 12th of June, but that's an arbitrary date and not a valid reason. I would RUN to my shop steward.

And I would let my manager know that you would like all further conversations of this nature to be in writing, cc'd to their manager.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:07 AM on May 31, 2019 [4 favorites]


If they have good faith reasons for asking you to leave the union of course they would have no problem with you going to your shop steward for advice. The union has no problem with you leaving the union when you retire or take another job or take a position that is not unionized and might be able to offer good advice on that transition. But if your manager wants you to keep it secret... Keeping it secret puts you in an enormously vulnerable position. Why would keeping it secret EVER be to your advantage? I mean, if Harvey Weinstein asked you to come into his office to discuss a possible future roll but not to tell anyone, would you be flattered and excited about your career being about to take off?
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:13 AM on May 31, 2019 [1 favorite]


It's now sounding extremely shady.

Is this "perk" something you can live with sacrificing? Because if that's the only thing preventing you from reporting the manager's behavior, then you should be prepared to let it go. You are being pressured and it looks to me from what you describe like it could be construed as a violation of labor law. Your manager is exerting pressure and direct dealing. That's not OK, and in a relationship with unionized employees it's actually not legal.

I'm not sure what the manager thinks he has to gain by getting you to quit the union

There are two major possibilities, both already mentioned. One is that they're interested in promoting you, but either the manager, or the managers' managers, are saying "we need to know their position on the union, because we aren't going to promote someone into management who's just going to be a union agent" (not OK but if it's not said in so many words and observes the letter of the law, in practice it happens all the time). The other is that they are undertaking an active effort to break the union by eroding employee support until it can no longer pass a certification vote.

Since you describe the management as "thugs" and don't look forward to joining them even though you are ready for more responsibility, you may want to begin a job search so you can move out of what sounds like a messy and toxic place.

In the meantime, DO: dodge the conversation as best as possible, ask for all communications in writing, and consider whether you could live without your non-standard benefit. If you can, it's time to mention this to the shop steward. You may discover other employees are experiencing the same thing (which is not something you would necessarily know until disclosure).
posted by Miko at 5:02 AM on May 31, 2019


Any manager who makes this kind of approach and doesn't expect the employee concerned to talk to their shop steward about it is a fucking idiot. There are undoubtedly games being played here, but you going straight to your shop steward is still your safest move.
posted by flabdablet at 5:30 AM on May 31, 2019


Are you scared that the shop steward will get mad? Remember that they probably aren't mad at you, but at the unfair work practices.

Go to your shop steward!
posted by freethefeet at 5:34 AM on May 31, 2019 [3 favorites]


- If I stay in the union, management doesn't like me
- If I report this conversation (which was over the phone, making me thing they knew it was underhanded) to the shop steward, then management REALLY doesn't like me


Management doesn't "like" you anyway. This sounds like exactly the kind of management that will betray you at a moment's notice. Never, ever trust people who are trying to convince you to leave the union.

Believe it or not, the union actually protects managers from their own short-sightedness - issues that would otherwise be lawsuit territory can be handled through the grievance process, saving both sides from legal fees and legal hazard.

I'm afraid of the shop steward too!

Why? Do you feel they are too aggressive in their confrontations? I can understand that you wouldn't like confrontation, but believe me when I tell you that cutting a deal with this kind of management is a classic deal with the devil. You can count on them to betray you as soon as it's convenient.

Stick with the union. Management is never your friend.

I don't think they take you for an idiot because you're new, but if you've given anybody the impression that you don't like confrontation - which I'm certainly seeing here - they think you're weak and can be manipulated. So they're attempting to do exactly that.
posted by Strudel at 3:08 PM on May 31, 2019


Believe it or not, the union actually protects managers from their own short-sightedness - issues that would otherwise be lawsuit territory can be handled through the grievance process, saving both sides from legal fees and legal hazard.

This x 1000. Also, having the image of an irate union in my mind works as a great deterrent factor to prompt me to not be lazy and go for the easy (but employee-abusing) answer, but to think a little harder about the right answer instead.

It might not be that "management" collectively is shady and union-busting here. It's possible that it's just this one manager who personally dislikes the concept of unions and doesn't know what he's doing (legality-wise). Lord knows I didn't get any training in this kind of stuff before I became a supervisor. Even after, I'm only lucky that I got a special national-level course in Labor Relations and union contract negotiation that almost nobody else gets.

All the more reason not to trust a thing he says about your options. If your company is big enough to have a LR section in HR, you might ask some "innocent" questions in there, like "is it really true that it's better for me to leave the union to make me a stronger candidate for a supervisor position?" (exaggerate a bit for effect) See if they recoil in horror at hearing those words. They should, and they should be very interested who told you that, because that person represents a legal threat to the company.
posted by ctmf at 4:35 PM on May 31, 2019 [1 favorite]


If you can get the HR director wanting this manager's head on a plate, well there's some more leverage you have without even involving the union.
posted by ctmf at 4:57 PM on May 31, 2019


Yikes!! I've been on both sides of the union line - represented and also manager of those represented. What you are describing sounds illegal to me based on all of the training I have received as both a manager of union employees and a represented employee. You need to write down everything you remember with dates and times, and report it immediately.
posted by Toddles at 8:20 PM on May 31, 2019 [3 favorites]


Many years ago, I was temporarily in a union. The company I worked for would hire the college bound children of their employees (like me) as summer help to earn money for college and we would be in the union and pay the dues, etc. The company had a 3-4 month probationary period for new employees and could fire then pretty much for any reason within the probationary period. After the probationary period the union protections made it much harder to fire new employees. So it worked out for the company to have temporary employees during their busy season that would voluntarily leave at the end of summer.

Could something like that be going on? Does union job protection or an automatic raise or some other perk kick in at or after 9 months on the job at your company?
posted by Blue Genie at 9:29 AM on June 2, 2019 [1 favorite]


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