Is this an issue we can work through?
May 5, 2019 1:44 PM Subscribe
I think my boyfriend means well and has genuine feelings for me but he seems to put his foot in his mouth a lot and sometimes the comments just seem a little nasty and unsupportive. I really like him and would be super sad if we broke up, but I don't want to continue in a relationship with someone who's potentially emotionally abusive and would value some objectivity here about some of the things he says. Combined with the fact that he finds it hard to express affection, this is really starting to affect me.
I've been seeing my boyfriend for around six months. We had an instant spark, and make eachother laugh a lot. I love lots of things about him. I hear lots of hints from him that he would like to see this relationship flourish. I once got upset about something insensitive he had done and he admitted to me that he had written in his journal that I was his perfect woman and that if he cant make it work with me he can't with anyone (I did have to get upset for him to admit that but still...).
My question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react?
The thing that bothers me....
The crux of the problem is that he quite regularly says things that hurt my feelings. He would describe himself as 'blunt','honest' and 'logical'. But is this just shorthand for being a bit of an insensitive dick?
He said early on that he likes my 'thick skin' because I'm able to laugh off his silly insults and that compared to a lot of the girls he has dated I get his humour. But sometimes he says things which don't feel funny. I feel angry right now as there have been a few comments in the past week (during our first ever weekend away) and I don't know whether to confront him about it and possibly end the relationship (it feels like a potential red flag), just put it down to clumsiness on his part, or try and work it through with him. I have been quite patient already, I feel, although I've never confronted this issue directly.
As an example, whilst drawing my portrait he said that I had a 'featureless face'. I made some sort of sarcastic 'thanks' back (I was quite embarrassed as we were in front of his housemate) and he said he meant I was pretty and it's difficult to draw pretty people as they have 'less obvious features' to draw.
The day before, in a rare moment of vulnerability I said I feel a bit fat at the moment and like I have a belly (it was a big thing for me to admit this). He replied that I wasn't fat, but 'well-fed'. I was clearly offended at this, and he didnt back down or apologise - just repeated it (for context, I'm UK size 10 - hardly a heifer, and not that it matters). It was very awkward, as it was on our first ever little break away together, but I now feel angry about it and like he consciously or unconsciously seemed to want to increase my insecurity instead of soothing it. It's not like I regularly fish for compliments; I was just having one vulnerable moment. He seems generally a bit funny about food - comments that we've eaten enough and don't need dessert, makes me feel a bit self conscious about ordering it (he also regularly doesnt eat much before we see eachother so he can indulge; perhaps he thinks I should do this too).
Reading between the lines, he seems to have offended a lot of girls he's dated - and this is partly why his relationships haven't worked out. One girl who he describes as 'crazy' texted him angry messages for two years after they'd broken up because she was so angry at him still (he mentioned one message which was about his insults).
I looked through our last few interactions by text and many of his replies to me are sarcastic. I sent him a picture of myself in a flower crown at a friend's wedding (I was bridemaid) and he sent me back a smiley face - and a picture of a dog wearing a flower crown. I said I'd meet him when I got back to our home city but that I'd have a little suitcase with me and his reply was 'just one'? It's tiring.
I'll admit that I have mostly found his humour and cheekiness funny, and I can give as good as I get on occasion. This week my responses have been spikier due to feeling tired of it all.
He also seems to bring up his insecurities in a sideways way, so that I can't directly address them. For instance, I once said that if I don't like a book I will stop reading it as I don't see the point in wasting time reading something I don't like, and he joked that I'm like that with men (I'm not, but I can see why he might think so - we've never discussed this in depth).
He also joked TWICE on our first little holiday about my 'future boyfriends'. I find this hurtful and bizarre. Perhaps he wants some sort of reassurance or reaction from me, but I feel blindsided and immaturely joked later about his 'future girlfriend' to give him a taste of his own medicine (as I said, I've gotten spikier in the last week!).
I am finding that he's perhaps slightly cynical and untrusting of people in general. I feel like I've been waiting for him to soften and trust me, which is happening slowly, and he's doing sweet things like making plans for the rest of the year and saying things like I'd be a great mum but with it the jokes are becoming less funny and more like actual insults.
Combined with his real difficulty around verbally expressing affection (unless I do it first), I'n starting to notice this is knocking my confidence in him and our relationship and I'm beginning to be passive-aggressive myself so I need to sort it out.
Context....
I've picked up that he seems to be maybe a little intimidated by my dating experience (as one of a few examples, he's compared his never having had a 'proper' girlfriend to my previous long-term relationship and said I obviously know how to do them etc).
He's also perhaps a little competitive about work stuff. We're both freelance, and I've been very busy since we started dating whereas he's had hardly had any work. He once sarcastically mimicked me when I mentioned I'd won an award for something, along the lines of 'I'm just so good at everything'. It was only once, and he's mostly supportive, but I don't like where it comes from and I notice myself censoring good things that happen to me at work incase they make him feel worse about situation which I know is stressing him out a lot.
I think that underneath he is a good person, and I've noticed he has a very high level of empathy - when I've called him out on stuff before (like his insulting banter) he's looked mortified and upset, and he's displayed real and genuine feeling for me when I've been upset about other things which are unrelated to him.
For context, I'm generally a patient and accomodating person - I can be way too accommodating - and have stayed in relationships that I knew in my heart weren't right for way too long too many times. I'm looking for the person I want to settle down with, and I'm worried about making a mistake again. So perhaps I'm wary.
On the other hand, I can be a picky perfectionist and someone who sees the worst in things people say to me and takes them more to heart than perhaps I should. I have noticed though that many people seem to have enough sensitivity to pretty much never offend me so this isn't a universal issue in my relationships. My ex used to say I was too sensitive a lot as a way of invalidating my feelings. Looking back, I think I had a right to be upset and it has slightly affected my ability to trust myself in situations like this (I believe it could have been gaslighting). Hence why I'd like some second opinions!
Again, my question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react? Do any of you have experience with insensitive husbands / boyfriends, or are you one yourself? Am I just being too sensitive here?
I've been seeing my boyfriend for around six months. We had an instant spark, and make eachother laugh a lot. I love lots of things about him. I hear lots of hints from him that he would like to see this relationship flourish. I once got upset about something insensitive he had done and he admitted to me that he had written in his journal that I was his perfect woman and that if he cant make it work with me he can't with anyone (I did have to get upset for him to admit that but still...).
My question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react?
The thing that bothers me....
The crux of the problem is that he quite regularly says things that hurt my feelings. He would describe himself as 'blunt','honest' and 'logical'. But is this just shorthand for being a bit of an insensitive dick?
He said early on that he likes my 'thick skin' because I'm able to laugh off his silly insults and that compared to a lot of the girls he has dated I get his humour. But sometimes he says things which don't feel funny. I feel angry right now as there have been a few comments in the past week (during our first ever weekend away) and I don't know whether to confront him about it and possibly end the relationship (it feels like a potential red flag), just put it down to clumsiness on his part, or try and work it through with him. I have been quite patient already, I feel, although I've never confronted this issue directly.
As an example, whilst drawing my portrait he said that I had a 'featureless face'. I made some sort of sarcastic 'thanks' back (I was quite embarrassed as we were in front of his housemate) and he said he meant I was pretty and it's difficult to draw pretty people as they have 'less obvious features' to draw.
The day before, in a rare moment of vulnerability I said I feel a bit fat at the moment and like I have a belly (it was a big thing for me to admit this). He replied that I wasn't fat, but 'well-fed'. I was clearly offended at this, and he didnt back down or apologise - just repeated it (for context, I'm UK size 10 - hardly a heifer, and not that it matters). It was very awkward, as it was on our first ever little break away together, but I now feel angry about it and like he consciously or unconsciously seemed to want to increase my insecurity instead of soothing it. It's not like I regularly fish for compliments; I was just having one vulnerable moment. He seems generally a bit funny about food - comments that we've eaten enough and don't need dessert, makes me feel a bit self conscious about ordering it (he also regularly doesnt eat much before we see eachother so he can indulge; perhaps he thinks I should do this too).
Reading between the lines, he seems to have offended a lot of girls he's dated - and this is partly why his relationships haven't worked out. One girl who he describes as 'crazy' texted him angry messages for two years after they'd broken up because she was so angry at him still (he mentioned one message which was about his insults).
I looked through our last few interactions by text and many of his replies to me are sarcastic. I sent him a picture of myself in a flower crown at a friend's wedding (I was bridemaid) and he sent me back a smiley face - and a picture of a dog wearing a flower crown. I said I'd meet him when I got back to our home city but that I'd have a little suitcase with me and his reply was 'just one'? It's tiring.
I'll admit that I have mostly found his humour and cheekiness funny, and I can give as good as I get on occasion. This week my responses have been spikier due to feeling tired of it all.
He also seems to bring up his insecurities in a sideways way, so that I can't directly address them. For instance, I once said that if I don't like a book I will stop reading it as I don't see the point in wasting time reading something I don't like, and he joked that I'm like that with men (I'm not, but I can see why he might think so - we've never discussed this in depth).
He also joked TWICE on our first little holiday about my 'future boyfriends'. I find this hurtful and bizarre. Perhaps he wants some sort of reassurance or reaction from me, but I feel blindsided and immaturely joked later about his 'future girlfriend' to give him a taste of his own medicine (as I said, I've gotten spikier in the last week!).
I am finding that he's perhaps slightly cynical and untrusting of people in general. I feel like I've been waiting for him to soften and trust me, which is happening slowly, and he's doing sweet things like making plans for the rest of the year and saying things like I'd be a great mum but with it the jokes are becoming less funny and more like actual insults.
Combined with his real difficulty around verbally expressing affection (unless I do it first), I'n starting to notice this is knocking my confidence in him and our relationship and I'm beginning to be passive-aggressive myself so I need to sort it out.
Context....
I've picked up that he seems to be maybe a little intimidated by my dating experience (as one of a few examples, he's compared his never having had a 'proper' girlfriend to my previous long-term relationship and said I obviously know how to do them etc).
He's also perhaps a little competitive about work stuff. We're both freelance, and I've been very busy since we started dating whereas he's had hardly had any work. He once sarcastically mimicked me when I mentioned I'd won an award for something, along the lines of 'I'm just so good at everything'. It was only once, and he's mostly supportive, but I don't like where it comes from and I notice myself censoring good things that happen to me at work incase they make him feel worse about situation which I know is stressing him out a lot.
I think that underneath he is a good person, and I've noticed he has a very high level of empathy - when I've called him out on stuff before (like his insulting banter) he's looked mortified and upset, and he's displayed real and genuine feeling for me when I've been upset about other things which are unrelated to him.
For context, I'm generally a patient and accomodating person - I can be way too accommodating - and have stayed in relationships that I knew in my heart weren't right for way too long too many times. I'm looking for the person I want to settle down with, and I'm worried about making a mistake again. So perhaps I'm wary.
On the other hand, I can be a picky perfectionist and someone who sees the worst in things people say to me and takes them more to heart than perhaps I should. I have noticed though that many people seem to have enough sensitivity to pretty much never offend me so this isn't a universal issue in my relationships. My ex used to say I was too sensitive a lot as a way of invalidating my feelings. Looking back, I think I had a right to be upset and it has slightly affected my ability to trust myself in situations like this (I believe it could have been gaslighting). Hence why I'd like some second opinions!
Again, my question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react? Do any of you have experience with insensitive husbands / boyfriends, or are you one yourself? Am I just being too sensitive here?
he's compared his never having had a 'proper' girlfriend
This really jumped out at me. Do you want to be the one to 'train' him on how not to be a self-centered jackass, just for your relationship to eventually end and all that hard work goes to the benefit of somebody else's relationship (his next girlfriend, or the one after that)? I'd move on.
posted by axiom at 1:50 PM on May 5, 2019 [44 favorites]
This really jumped out at me. Do you want to be the one to 'train' him on how not to be a self-centered jackass, just for your relationship to eventually end and all that hard work goes to the benefit of somebody else's relationship (his next girlfriend, or the one after that)? I'd move on.
posted by axiom at 1:50 PM on May 5, 2019 [44 favorites]
He may be fairly young and not have been taught how to be tactful and sensitive to feelings. He may have been taught (by example) that not-very-kind 'kidding' is how people communicate and that it's fine. It may well be okay with some people; I hate it.
Tell him, straight up, that it would mean a lot to you for him to get better at tact and sensitivity and to limit bluntness. That it would feel way better to you and that it would be a very useful life skill for him. A method of behavior modification is to give him attention when he is sensitive and tactful and to mostly ignore insensitive, unkind 'kidding', side-eye or eyeroll is a good response, but no further attention. This article describes mild behavior modification.
Give it some time, and honestly assess if he is going to be able to manage his behavior. In my experience, stuff like this gets worse, not better, without effort.
posted by theora55 at 1:57 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
Tell him, straight up, that it would mean a lot to you for him to get better at tact and sensitivity and to limit bluntness. That it would feel way better to you and that it would be a very useful life skill for him. A method of behavior modification is to give him attention when he is sensitive and tactful and to mostly ignore insensitive, unkind 'kidding', side-eye or eyeroll is a good response, but no further attention. This article describes mild behavior modification.
Give it some time, and honestly assess if he is going to be able to manage his behavior. In my experience, stuff like this gets worse, not better, without effort.
posted by theora55 at 1:57 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
You are trying to rationalise this guy's shitty behaviour and immaturity so hard that your question is difficult to read.
He's not 'intimidated' by you. That is a rationalisation lots of women use as to why a guy might be acting ambivalent. He is immature and doesn't know how to have an adult relationship. You can't teach him this.
Do you really want to be with someone who is a good person 'underneath'? Is that the bar you are setting for yourself, that you have to wade through his passive-aggressive comments, his ambivalence about your future together and his nastiness about the other women he has treated badly, in order to see the good guy underneath? (You must realise that calling exes 'crazy' is a huuuuge red flag and shows he cannot take accountability for his behaviour.)
No, this is not a relationship that you should pursue. I think you should have a careful think about why you are open to accepting this guy into your life when there are so many better men out there . I'm not judging - I was you once and spent 4.5 years in the kind of relationship you have just described, knowing the whole time I should get out of it. It took some hard reflecting and therapy to do so. You've only had 6 months with this guy - leave before you get more enmeshed.
posted by thereader at 1:58 PM on May 5, 2019 [54 favorites]
He's not 'intimidated' by you. That is a rationalisation lots of women use as to why a guy might be acting ambivalent. He is immature and doesn't know how to have an adult relationship. You can't teach him this.
Do you really want to be with someone who is a good person 'underneath'? Is that the bar you are setting for yourself, that you have to wade through his passive-aggressive comments, his ambivalence about your future together and his nastiness about the other women he has treated badly, in order to see the good guy underneath? (You must realise that calling exes 'crazy' is a huuuuge red flag and shows he cannot take accountability for his behaviour.)
No, this is not a relationship that you should pursue. I think you should have a careful think about why you are open to accepting this guy into your life when there are so many better men out there . I'm not judging - I was you once and spent 4.5 years in the kind of relationship you have just described, knowing the whole time I should get out of it. It took some hard reflecting and therapy to do so. You've only had 6 months with this guy - leave before you get more enmeshed.
posted by thereader at 1:58 PM on May 5, 2019 [54 favorites]
Is this an issue we can work through?
Definitely! And it would look like this:
You: I'd love Thai for dinner.
Him: Eating again? Don't you think you should skip a few meals?
You:
You: Do you want to see Avengers?
Him: So you can think about your pretend boyfriend Captain America? He'd never look at you.
You:
You: Let's go see my mom.
Him: And see where you learned how to nag?
You:
So no. There's nice normal stuff you say, then there's hostile jackass stuff he says. What is there to work through? There's him being a real nasty piece of work and you tying yourself into knots making excuses for him and explaining this away.
Again, my question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react?
It doesn't matter what we think. Could you imagine if everyone here said it's totally super to have a partner who's mean? Would that really make you reconsider this? No, right? It's enough that it bothers you, so tell this guy thanks and no thanks.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:58 PM on May 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
Definitely! And it would look like this:
You: I'd love Thai for dinner.
Him: Eating again? Don't you think you should skip a few meals?
You:
You: Do you want to see Avengers?
Him: So you can think about your pretend boyfriend Captain America? He'd never look at you.
You:
You: Let's go see my mom.
Him: And see where you learned how to nag?
You:
So no. There's nice normal stuff you say, then there's hostile jackass stuff he says. What is there to work through? There's him being a real nasty piece of work and you tying yourself into knots making excuses for him and explaining this away.
Again, my question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react?
It doesn't matter what we think. Could you imagine if everyone here said it's totally super to have a partner who's mean? Would that really make you reconsider this? No, right? It's enough that it bothers you, so tell this guy thanks and no thanks.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:58 PM on May 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
The things you describe would be major to me. He sounds insecure and unable to be vulnerable with you. For some reason this would bother me the most—
whilst drawing my portrait he said that I had a 'featureless face'.
I can’t imagine ever thinking that about the face of someone I care about. All I want to do is look at those people’s faces, they are so dear to me. That was just cruel to say, regardless of whether it stems from his own insecurity or not.
But I think you should work on your own confidence as well. I don’t think it’s healthy to express that you feel fat if you’re then so insulted by a partner trying to make something hurtful you said about yourself into a nice thing / silver lining. He was probably confused about what you wanted to hear there.
posted by sallybrown at 2:05 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
whilst drawing my portrait he said that I had a 'featureless face'.
I can’t imagine ever thinking that about the face of someone I care about. All I want to do is look at those people’s faces, they are so dear to me. That was just cruel to say, regardless of whether it stems from his own insecurity or not.
But I think you should work on your own confidence as well. I don’t think it’s healthy to express that you feel fat if you’re then so insulted by a partner trying to make something hurtful you said about yourself into a nice thing / silver lining. He was probably confused about what you wanted to hear there.
posted by sallybrown at 2:05 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
There’s a famous quote to the effect that when people show you who they are, believe them. He is undermining and childish.
posted by matildaben at 2:13 PM on May 5, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by matildaben at 2:13 PM on May 5, 2019 [24 favorites]
Being a good person is in your actions. There is no such thing as being a “good person underneath.” You wrote a wall of text on how badly he makes you feel. Whether or not he can mature is up to him. He likes your “thick skin” so he can be shifty and you'll just take it and he won’t have to work on being better and growing. That’s not a healthy relationship. How you proceed is up to you but you need to take off these rose-colored glasses you’ve got on so you can see the red flags.
posted by acidnova at 2:14 PM on May 5, 2019 [34 favorites]
posted by acidnova at 2:14 PM on May 5, 2019 [34 favorites]
I am a picky perfectionist too and sensitive and think people should be kind and nice all of the time and "I would never be mean or say something unkind, why would they?" I cut people out all of the time. It's a flaw. People do say things they do not mean and they say things because they are insecure and yes, logical. I don't think your boyfriend's comments belong in the mean and unkind category.
Especially the first two comments about the featureless face and being well fed. He clarified and stated you were pretty. He most likely finds you attractive -- he is dating you after all.
One thing I learned about growing older and being married for 20+ years is to not expect your partner to make you feel better about your weight or appearance. Sure, we all occasionally want assurance and approval, yet we do not need it. We look like what we look like. I pretty much know my husband finds me attractive. Physical appearance insecurities are best sorted out on your own. I found the best thing to do is to not talk about my appearance with my spouse, or anyone really. I will say I'm stuffed, or feeling bloated, or heavy, however I do not expect a compliment from my husband. If I put it out there that I feel bloated and my husband said something about being well fed I might shrug it off because I'm usually complaining about feeling heavy after indulgent eating and that would be a "logical" response.
The other stuff is him being insecure. He wants reassurance. You want reassurance. Oftentimes all we are doing is using our significant others to boost our egos, to parent us, to heal us, and to reassure us. Sure, that's part of what makes coupledom appealing. We get to be vulnerable and we get reassurance and support. We get to be stroked and told we are wonderful. We are needy little creatures. That's fine but it can never replace the work we must do on our own. The good stuff comes when we are healed and comfortable enough in our skin to give rather than always needing and wanting. Nobody can say the right things all of the time. If your overall feeling is that your boyfriend is a good guy and a kind and considerate person, you might stay and chalk it up to him being logical.
posted by loveandhappiness at 2:18 PM on May 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
Especially the first two comments about the featureless face and being well fed. He clarified and stated you were pretty. He most likely finds you attractive -- he is dating you after all.
One thing I learned about growing older and being married for 20+ years is to not expect your partner to make you feel better about your weight or appearance. Sure, we all occasionally want assurance and approval, yet we do not need it. We look like what we look like. I pretty much know my husband finds me attractive. Physical appearance insecurities are best sorted out on your own. I found the best thing to do is to not talk about my appearance with my spouse, or anyone really. I will say I'm stuffed, or feeling bloated, or heavy, however I do not expect a compliment from my husband. If I put it out there that I feel bloated and my husband said something about being well fed I might shrug it off because I'm usually complaining about feeling heavy after indulgent eating and that would be a "logical" response.
The other stuff is him being insecure. He wants reassurance. You want reassurance. Oftentimes all we are doing is using our significant others to boost our egos, to parent us, to heal us, and to reassure us. Sure, that's part of what makes coupledom appealing. We get to be vulnerable and we get reassurance and support. We get to be stroked and told we are wonderful. We are needy little creatures. That's fine but it can never replace the work we must do on our own. The good stuff comes when we are healed and comfortable enough in our skin to give rather than always needing and wanting. Nobody can say the right things all of the time. If your overall feeling is that your boyfriend is a good guy and a kind and considerate person, you might stay and chalk it up to him being logical.
posted by loveandhappiness at 2:18 PM on May 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
You said there are many people in this world that seem to be able to be friends with you without offending on a regular basis. So, this is not all about you being too sensitive.If you are looking to settle down, why not pick someone who makes you feel good about yourself instead of someone is sounds like a lot of work.
posted by metahawk at 2:36 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by metahawk at 2:36 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
Okay, so this guy rips on you constantly. You won’t tell him about your accomplishments because it will make him feel bad, and he’ll express that by making a shitty comment about you to your face. Regardless of the mood of the things you say (a loving comment, a victory lap, a serious comment, plans for getting together), he responds with an insult. He’s had several relationships fizzle out almost immediately because he can’t stop insulting the women he dates. Yeah, because nobody wants to put up with someone who constantly needles them and shoots them down all the time.
Regardless WHY he does it (is he an emotional abuser, or is he just mentally 12 and thinks that 4chan humor gets the ladies? It’s a mystery), you don’t have to try to make a relationship work with a guy who makes you feel like shit all the time. There’s literally no benefit to you—what are you going to do, be 5 years down the road and have the skin of a rhino because of all the insults you’ve had to bear from him? What’s the wedding going to be like? You write your own vows and his are, “Roses are red, violets are blue, I guess if I have to marry someone, it may as well be you”? He makes a toast at the reception about how fat your ass looks in your dress, hahaha? And then what, you have kids, and he takes his shit out on the kids every single day of their lives so they grow up with zero self-esteem?
Walk away. This is the best it’s ever going to be, and it’s just a bunch of potshots and bullshit already. Why bother?
posted by Autumnheart at 2:46 PM on May 5, 2019 [61 favorites]
Regardless WHY he does it (is he an emotional abuser, or is he just mentally 12 and thinks that 4chan humor gets the ladies? It’s a mystery), you don’t have to try to make a relationship work with a guy who makes you feel like shit all the time. There’s literally no benefit to you—what are you going to do, be 5 years down the road and have the skin of a rhino because of all the insults you’ve had to bear from him? What’s the wedding going to be like? You write your own vows and his are, “Roses are red, violets are blue, I guess if I have to marry someone, it may as well be you”? He makes a toast at the reception about how fat your ass looks in your dress, hahaha? And then what, you have kids, and he takes his shit out on the kids every single day of their lives so they grow up with zero self-esteem?
Walk away. This is the best it’s ever going to be, and it’s just a bunch of potshots and bullshit already. Why bother?
posted by Autumnheart at 2:46 PM on May 5, 2019 [61 favorites]
Maybe he's basically a jerk, or maybe he's a more-or-less decent guy who just hasn't learned yet how to have a real relationship or the importance of considering other people's feelings before you open your mouth.
But even if the latter is true, it sounds like it will take a good deal of work and time to get him to the stage where he's a good partner. You've only spent 6 months with this guy; how much more of your time and energy are you willing to spend acting as this guy's remedial human interaction tutor, in the hope that one day he'll maybe be able to meet what for most of us would be a minimum standard for a relationship partner? 6 more months? A year? 5 years? Forever?
posted by Meow Face at 2:48 PM on May 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
But even if the latter is true, it sounds like it will take a good deal of work and time to get him to the stage where he's a good partner. You've only spent 6 months with this guy; how much more of your time and energy are you willing to spend acting as this guy's remedial human interaction tutor, in the hope that one day he'll maybe be able to meet what for most of us would be a minimum standard for a relationship partner? 6 more months? A year? 5 years? Forever?
posted by Meow Face at 2:48 PM on May 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
I would not continue to date this person. IME, that kind of 'sense of humor' (being charitable, here) has never come along with the kind of generous spirit needed for a supportive and healthy relationship.
There is someone else out there who you will get on with AND will treat you with kindness and respect. Make space in your life for that.
ETA: the plural 'you' can only work through relationship problems if both of the singular yous want to. There's no evidence here that he wants to do that.
posted by PaulaSchultz at 2:50 PM on May 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
There is someone else out there who you will get on with AND will treat you with kindness and respect. Make space in your life for that.
ETA: the plural 'you' can only work through relationship problems if both of the singular yous want to. There's no evidence here that he wants to do that.
posted by PaulaSchultz at 2:50 PM on May 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think he is not only a dick, but also sets the stage to pre-excuse himself to be a dick in the future. He's blunt, honest and logical, he likes your thick skin (by implication, would not like you if your feelings got hurt), he has a sarcastic sense of humor... this is not a guy who intends to change.
I stopped putting up with mean sarcasm as a form of humor a long time ago. Have the guts to say what you mean or say something genuinely nice. None of this (mean thing) ha ha, now you have to wonder what I meant. You can do this too, and maybe he can work with that framework.
Probably he can't though.
posted by ctmf at 2:51 PM on May 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
I stopped putting up with mean sarcasm as a form of humor a long time ago. Have the guts to say what you mean or say something genuinely nice. None of this (mean thing) ha ha, now you have to wonder what I meant. You can do this too, and maybe he can work with that framework.
Probably he can't though.
posted by ctmf at 2:51 PM on May 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
Again, my question: would the behaviour I describe bother you, and how would you react?
I wouldn’t find most of this stuff horribly bothersome (maybe with the exclusion of his ‘crazy ex’ story which is kind of a red flag in my experience...) - but then I don’t quite get how that matters. His behavior pretty consistently bothers you. Don’t waste your time one a guy who’s already annoying you so much in the first stage of your relationship. Really. It’s super ok not to get along with sarcastic people.
posted by The Toad at 2:52 PM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
I wouldn’t find most of this stuff horribly bothersome (maybe with the exclusion of his ‘crazy ex’ story which is kind of a red flag in my experience...) - but then I don’t quite get how that matters. His behavior pretty consistently bothers you. Don’t waste your time one a guy who’s already annoying you so much in the first stage of your relationship. Really. It’s super ok not to get along with sarcastic people.
posted by The Toad at 2:52 PM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
Ditch this guy.
He doesn’t “mean well”. He’s an insensitive jerk with shit relationship skills who takes no ownership of this fact. He does not deserve sex.
Multiple women have quit him, and he’s explicitly said he’s looking for a girlfriend who puts up with his bullshit and doesn't ask him to change. And if you stay, nothing will change and he will be shit to you the whole time and smile, patting himself on the back.
You are not a relationship gym, where he takes his slack-ass self to maybe, some day “work on himself”. Fuck this Stand By Your Man I’m-a-doormat-who-doesn't-deserve-respect bullshit.
“You call it a sense of humor. I call it not being nice or kind or sympathetic. And I’m not interested in that in a relationsip. This is not a discussion, this is over.”
The female bower bird does not look at the male bower bird with a ratty-ass bower, insipid dance moves, and a sharp, condescending tone and think “He means well.” She says “This loser isn’t even trying”.
Take a lesson from the female bower bird. Go find a guy who sounds like he’s happy to be with you when using his outside voice. A dude with dance moves, too.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:58 PM on May 5, 2019 [53 favorites]
He doesn’t “mean well”. He’s an insensitive jerk with shit relationship skills who takes no ownership of this fact. He does not deserve sex.
Multiple women have quit him, and he’s explicitly said he’s looking for a girlfriend who puts up with his bullshit and doesn't ask him to change. And if you stay, nothing will change and he will be shit to you the whole time and smile, patting himself on the back.
You are not a relationship gym, where he takes his slack-ass self to maybe, some day “work on himself”. Fuck this Stand By Your Man I’m-a-doormat-who-doesn't-deserve-respect bullshit.
“You call it a sense of humor. I call it not being nice or kind or sympathetic. And I’m not interested in that in a relationsip. This is not a discussion, this is over.”
The female bower bird does not look at the male bower bird with a ratty-ass bower, insipid dance moves, and a sharp, condescending tone and think “He means well.” She says “This loser isn’t even trying”.
Take a lesson from the female bower bird. Go find a guy who sounds like he’s happy to be with you when using his outside voice. A dude with dance moves, too.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:58 PM on May 5, 2019 [53 favorites]
Response by poster: That bird comment made me laugh. On a slightly related note, he is AMAZING and very generous, shall we say, in bed. He can do things that no man has done before, and there's been a few. This may be slightly clouding my judgement.
On the ownership point, he has actually said that every single one of his previous girlfriends has had very good reason to be angry with him. And when I did call him out on being insensitive one time. he said that he agrees and I do not deserve that behaviour. He asked me specifically what good looked like, and what I wanted to change about the relationship. I think he actively wanted guidance, and would be open to a talk about this.
I also think that because I'm also quite sarcastic and -- well, British in the sense that piss-taking is the way that my family express humour -- I don't think he quite realises that this is not doing it for me anymore. On the outside i kind of pretend that it's water off a duck's back most of the time. It's not like I'm just sitting there visibly upset... perhaps I should modify this and stop pretending to have no vulnerabilities. He clearly thinks I'm very confident, from comments he's made before.
posted by starstarstar at 3:02 PM on May 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
On the ownership point, he has actually said that every single one of his previous girlfriends has had very good reason to be angry with him. And when I did call him out on being insensitive one time. he said that he agrees and I do not deserve that behaviour. He asked me specifically what good looked like, and what I wanted to change about the relationship. I think he actively wanted guidance, and would be open to a talk about this.
I also think that because I'm also quite sarcastic and -- well, British in the sense that piss-taking is the way that my family express humour -- I don't think he quite realises that this is not doing it for me anymore. On the outside i kind of pretend that it's water off a duck's back most of the time. It's not like I'm just sitting there visibly upset... perhaps I should modify this and stop pretending to have no vulnerabilities. He clearly thinks I'm very confident, from comments he's made before.
posted by starstarstar at 3:02 PM on May 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
some of his individual comments don't seem terribly bad to me, but the overall picture you give of him is just awful.
believe he has a secret storehouse of goodness somewhere inside him, if you like, though I don't see that it matters. but one thing you should not do is construct a castle of delusion where he's just ignorant and "blunt" and unsubtle and doesn't know he's doing anything wrong. you describe a deliberate and practiced manipulator, though not a creative one. telling you that you're special and different from other girls because they were weak and sensitive but you're strong and can take an insult, and he loves that about you? someday you will remember feeling flattered by that line and just be sick about it. He is not saying something nice and he is not saying something true.
and the bit about how if he can't make it work with you, he can't make it work with anyone, it's you or nobody? a scary and melodramatic piece of fantasy, but you don't sound scared of him, so you probably don't take it seriously. and shouldn't.
but if he were serious, all he'd have to do to "make it work" is be nice to you, and yet he's not. instead, he's stepping up the meanness because if you, the perfect one, keep taking it and don't leave, he never did anything wrong to other women either -- it was just a mismatch because they weren't as perfect for him as you. he doesn't want to be nice to you, he wants to use your tolerance to prove to himself that there's nothing wrong with being mean.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:05 PM on May 5, 2019 [29 favorites]
believe he has a secret storehouse of goodness somewhere inside him, if you like, though I don't see that it matters. but one thing you should not do is construct a castle of delusion where he's just ignorant and "blunt" and unsubtle and doesn't know he's doing anything wrong. you describe a deliberate and practiced manipulator, though not a creative one. telling you that you're special and different from other girls because they were weak and sensitive but you're strong and can take an insult, and he loves that about you? someday you will remember feeling flattered by that line and just be sick about it. He is not saying something nice and he is not saying something true.
and the bit about how if he can't make it work with you, he can't make it work with anyone, it's you or nobody? a scary and melodramatic piece of fantasy, but you don't sound scared of him, so you probably don't take it seriously. and shouldn't.
but if he were serious, all he'd have to do to "make it work" is be nice to you, and yet he's not. instead, he's stepping up the meanness because if you, the perfect one, keep taking it and don't leave, he never did anything wrong to other women either -- it was just a mismatch because they weren't as perfect for him as you. he doesn't want to be nice to you, he wants to use your tolerance to prove to himself that there's nothing wrong with being mean.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:05 PM on May 5, 2019 [29 favorites]
He’s negging you. Could be his own insecurity making him feel bad but it’s a flag, call it out. If he can’t take your concerns and validate your feelings then take that as a signal that you may want to start making an exit plan.
posted by nikaspark at 3:11 PM on May 5, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 3:11 PM on May 5, 2019 [23 favorites]
I'm not a fan of the "thick skin" comment. It's like he is a test you have so far passed, in contrast to other people. He is constantly going to have the edge in this relationship if he can make you think you are either being successful or unsuccessful in responding to his comments. He may well be insecure and doing this sort of silly serve and volley type of conversation because he feels he doesn't actually have anything to say. People have been known to give that up in order for a relationship to deepen. But it's been six months now.
posted by BibiRose at 3:23 PM on May 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by BibiRose at 3:23 PM on May 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
He's never had a "proper" girlfriend because he acts like this.
A lot of shitty people want to play their abusive behavior as "oh I'm just blunt, I'm just being honest" or "I'm joking, come on, it was obviously a joke" and it's still abusive behavior. It ultimately doesn't matter why he's doing it.
DTMFA.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:26 PM on May 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
A lot of shitty people want to play their abusive behavior as "oh I'm just blunt, I'm just being honest" or "I'm joking, come on, it was obviously a joke" and it's still abusive behavior. It ultimately doesn't matter why he's doing it.
DTMFA.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:26 PM on May 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
He clearly thinks I'm very confident, from comments he's made before.
so you can see underneath his nasty exterior to his good heart, but you don't think he can see past your illusion of confidence to your obvious pain. and you blame yourself for not being more obvious about it, instead of blaming him for not using logic or paying attention.
what if he felt just as responsible for studying your patterns and discerning your true sentiments as you do for him?
the other thing is from his reported behavior, he does not like the confidence he thinks he sees. when he mocks your successes and makes you hesitant to share good news, he is influencing you to be more timid and deferential to his feelings. that is not the way to bolster anyone's alleged confidence.
anyway it's very weird how he asks for instructions on how to be good. you're not, if I understand you, asking him to change his entire sensibility and joke style, just for him to not target you with it. there's a whole world of things and people to be sarcastic and dismissive about that aren't your girlfriend. tell him that, see if it works or if he finds a way to be confused about it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:28 PM on May 5, 2019 [23 favorites]
You sound like you like him enough that it might be worth seeing if he can figure out what he’s doing wrong and if he does want to stop it.
Can you have a quick talk with him and tell him “when you say hostile things to me it hurts my feelings. It doesn’t matter if you don’t mean to hurt me, I want you to stop.” And then when he says something nasty, give him a deadpan look and say, flatly “Please don’t talk to me like that.” And end the conversation and leave if possible. Don’t get angry, just tell him not to talk like that and withdraw.
If he’s genuinely clueless about how unpleasant he’s being, that’s all the information he needs and it should work very quickly — two or three nasty remarks, not more. If it doesn’t work immediately (which is what I’d guess is probably going to happen), or if he’s miserable about your asserting yourself, he’s hopeless and you should get away from him. (Hopeless for you, for now. Might get better, might do better with someone else. But he’ll just make you unhappy.)
Particularly if anything about the interaction makes you feel as if you’re the bad guy for being mean to him, break up. If you can’t defend yourself without being in the wrong, it doesn’t matter what an objective observer would say about who behaved badly: the two of you should not be together.
posted by LizardBreath at 3:30 PM on May 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
Can you have a quick talk with him and tell him “when you say hostile things to me it hurts my feelings. It doesn’t matter if you don’t mean to hurt me, I want you to stop.” And then when he says something nasty, give him a deadpan look and say, flatly “Please don’t talk to me like that.” And end the conversation and leave if possible. Don’t get angry, just tell him not to talk like that and withdraw.
If he’s genuinely clueless about how unpleasant he’s being, that’s all the information he needs and it should work very quickly — two or three nasty remarks, not more. If it doesn’t work immediately (which is what I’d guess is probably going to happen), or if he’s miserable about your asserting yourself, he’s hopeless and you should get away from him. (Hopeless for you, for now. Might get better, might do better with someone else. But he’ll just make you unhappy.)
Particularly if anything about the interaction makes you feel as if you’re the bad guy for being mean to him, break up. If you can’t defend yourself without being in the wrong, it doesn’t matter what an objective observer would say about who behaved badly: the two of you should not be together.
posted by LizardBreath at 3:30 PM on May 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
He sounds like he’s insecure and defensive, and doesn’t know how to handle that maturely. He sounds pretty clueless in what it is precisely that angers other people, and how he should handle things differently. That’s on him. But apparently, you’re not telling him it bothers you either, so how should he know? This isn’t very mature of you either.
I think it’s absolutely worth it to have a discussion with him where you tell him about the things that bother you, but it’s also necessary that you call him out whenever he says something that upsets you. Just stay calm and say something along the lines of “That’s not a nice thing to say.” or “I actually don’t think that’s funny; I’m a bit offended.” or whatever. And being able to do this is something useful for you anyway, whether or not you end up leaving him or not.
On preview: what LizardBreath said.
posted by eierschnee at 3:32 PM on May 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I think it’s absolutely worth it to have a discussion with him where you tell him about the things that bother you, but it’s also necessary that you call him out whenever he says something that upsets you. Just stay calm and say something along the lines of “That’s not a nice thing to say.” or “I actually don’t think that’s funny; I’m a bit offended.” or whatever. And being able to do this is something useful for you anyway, whether or not you end up leaving him or not.
On preview: what LizardBreath said.
posted by eierschnee at 3:32 PM on May 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
Seek a partner who can lift you up instead of leave you wondering,
posted by Riverine at 3:36 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Riverine at 3:36 PM on May 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
If you break up with him expect him to say he thought you were different and you're too sensitive just like all the others, and don't let him make you feel humorless and uptight. Don't let him cajole you back with sex. I speak from experience.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 3:38 PM on May 5, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 3:38 PM on May 5, 2019 [23 favorites]
You say you’ve never confronted this issue directly. So do that. Tell him he hurts your feelings and you want it to stop. Tell him you don’t have a thick skin (because you don’t, nor should you). Tell him you need him to stop policing your food. See how he responds.
If his excuse is that he’s honest and direct, then lose him. That’s an adolescent cover for not wanting to think of other people’s feelings.
If he’s willing to change what he’s doing, it doesn’t seem terrible to give him another chance. But not a lot of chances. He can 100% control this if he really wants to.
posted by FencingGal at 3:38 PM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
If his excuse is that he’s honest and direct, then lose him. That’s an adolescent cover for not wanting to think of other people’s feelings.
If he’s willing to change what he’s doing, it doesn’t seem terrible to give him another chance. But not a lot of chances. He can 100% control this if he really wants to.
posted by FencingGal at 3:38 PM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
One girl who he describes as 'crazy'
DANGER DANGER
Any guy who says this about an ex immediately makes my antennae go way up. It's a misogynist trope of the most insidious sort, most often used to describe an extremely angry woman who was wronged and, instead of politely slinking off and probably apologizing the entire time, has made her anger and hurt known in a way the guy can't ignore.
Are there some troubled people out there who are probably someone's ex? Yes, but that's like .05% of all women described as being a "crazy ex girlfriend."
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:38 PM on May 5, 2019 [31 favorites]
DANGER DANGER
Any guy who says this about an ex immediately makes my antennae go way up. It's a misogynist trope of the most insidious sort, most often used to describe an extremely angry woman who was wronged and, instead of politely slinking off and probably apologizing the entire time, has made her anger and hurt known in a way the guy can't ignore.
Are there some troubled people out there who are probably someone's ex? Yes, but that's like .05% of all women described as being a "crazy ex girlfriend."
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:38 PM on May 5, 2019 [31 favorites]
My take: uh-oh. You need to move on. Obviously, from your description, he is not going to change in order for you to get the results that will make you feel better.
Since you ask, no, personally I wouldn't break up with your boyfriend; but everyone has different levels of intimacy and trust. However, any situation that so strongly consists of "If he were different in these ways I wouldn't get my feelings hurt" is doomed, because your feelings come from you, not him. Of course we all react to discomfort, emotional and otherwise, but it does sound like neither of you knows how to dance with each other.
Find somebody else who's a better fit, and stop torturing yourself. Good luck.
posted by kestralwing at 3:39 PM on May 5, 2019
Since you ask, no, personally I wouldn't break up with your boyfriend; but everyone has different levels of intimacy and trust. However, any situation that so strongly consists of "If he were different in these ways I wouldn't get my feelings hurt" is doomed, because your feelings come from you, not him. Of course we all react to discomfort, emotional and otherwise, but it does sound like neither of you knows how to dance with each other.
Find somebody else who's a better fit, and stop torturing yourself. Good luck.
posted by kestralwing at 3:39 PM on May 5, 2019
Don't get involved with someone like this unless you enjoy being embarrassed in front of your family & friends and then 100x embarrassed by having an SO you can't trust not to embarrass you. Granted he probably learned how to behave this way from too much tv because characters like this live their whole tv lives treating people this way but that's his problem and NOT yours.
posted by bleep at 3:56 PM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:56 PM on May 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
There is no one correct answer here. Some people like banter with a bite to it and insert mildly insulting sarcasm into fliratious relationships. There's almost a big brotherly-teasing quality in the way he's teasing you, and he seems constantly surprised that you don't like it. Some men do this to be playful. Some women sling it back, roll their eyes, slap the guy lightly on the shoulder, whatever.
But you don't have to like having your pigtails dipped in the inkwell. It doesn't seem you do like it. (I wouldn't, fwiw.)
But if you like him in all other ways and do feel he's a good, empathic guy in ways that might not come across in this question, it costs you nothing but a few weeks to give him the kind of talk people often have around the 6 month mark: "There is this thing you do, it makes me feel crappy, it's a dealbreaker." See how seriously he addresses changing how he talks to you.
Not all partners come out of the box in perfect working order. It's OK to tinker a bit. It sounds more tiring and kind of distancing than deeply hurtful. You don't have to stay with someone who makes you feel that way, but you can see if he'll cut it out, if you want to give him a chance. But only give him one chance. Tell him one time in a serious way that it's a dealbreaker and if he doesn't rigorously change his ways, you;ll have your answer that it's deeper than a habit of banter.
posted by nantucket at 3:59 PM on May 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
But you don't have to like having your pigtails dipped in the inkwell. It doesn't seem you do like it. (I wouldn't, fwiw.)
But if you like him in all other ways and do feel he's a good, empathic guy in ways that might not come across in this question, it costs you nothing but a few weeks to give him the kind of talk people often have around the 6 month mark: "There is this thing you do, it makes me feel crappy, it's a dealbreaker." See how seriously he addresses changing how he talks to you.
Not all partners come out of the box in perfect working order. It's OK to tinker a bit. It sounds more tiring and kind of distancing than deeply hurtful. You don't have to stay with someone who makes you feel that way, but you can see if he'll cut it out, if you want to give him a chance. But only give him one chance. Tell him one time in a serious way that it's a dealbreaker and if he doesn't rigorously change his ways, you;ll have your answer that it's deeper than a habit of banter.
posted by nantucket at 3:59 PM on May 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
He said early on that he likes my 'thick skin' because I'm able to laugh off his silly insults and that compared to a lot of the girls he has dated I get his humour. But sometimes he says things which don't feel funny.
This is the equivalent of "oh, you don't mind, do you?" as somebody takes advantage of you and it would bother me more than the individual comments you mention.
If you are so inclined, you can reply along the lines of "yeah I get your sense of humour but that comment was not funny..." every time this dude says something stupid. Or, you can set him free and find someone who has already figured this stuff out, and wish this guy well on his journey to become a more enlightened person and a better partner. (My informal estimate would be he has about 5-6 more years, and a few annoyed exes, to go.)
posted by rpfields at 4:08 PM on May 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
This is the equivalent of "oh, you don't mind, do you?" as somebody takes advantage of you and it would bother me more than the individual comments you mention.
If you are so inclined, you can reply along the lines of "yeah I get your sense of humour but that comment was not funny..." every time this dude says something stupid. Or, you can set him free and find someone who has already figured this stuff out, and wish this guy well on his journey to become a more enlightened person and a better partner. (My informal estimate would be he has about 5-6 more years, and a few annoyed exes, to go.)
posted by rpfields at 4:08 PM on May 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
My partner is clever and can be sarcastic and have biting humor, but it’s never directed at me personally and it’s never punching down. Your boyfriend sounds like a jerk who wants to put you in your place via a thousand little cutting remarks. The “blunt”, “thick skin”, and “logical” stuff is a smokescreen he uses to cover for the fact that he has no problem treating you cruelly. He already knows it’s not appealing to women because so many women have rejected him for this behavior. He knows better, he just doesn’t care enough to change. I assure you that there are men out there who are great in bed and know how to treat someone that they care about. You don’t have to train a grown man to behave properly. You can move on and find someone who deserves you and already knows how to treat you well.
posted by quince at 4:13 PM on May 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by quince at 4:13 PM on May 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
Sounds similar to an ex I had, talented in many ways, including good in bed, but day-to-day stuff, the jokes, minor insults, not just at me, but at other people, it got old after a while.
Guess what? 6 months is not that much of an investment. You can consider it a sunk cost. The whole career/jealousy thing is somewhat comparable to my situation, whenever I had a success, or friends, etc., it was met with a put down.
Also: the whole relationship, as yours seems to be right now, became about him and his issues and his feelings, and analyzing why he was behaving the way he was, and me trying to figure it out. Guess what? It doesn't matter.
There are lots of nice guys who are also good in bed, are supportive, and don't make snide comments. Nobody's perfect, but you have to draw the line somewhere, tons of good advice above, especially in regards to what if you had children with him, interacting with your family, etc. It's not your job to raise him into some enlightened man: many men know the right way to treat a woman, as a human being, and enjoy being intimate emotionally and having a best friend who is also a great lover.
Personally, I'd chalk it up to a learning experience, and wish him well, and move on to greener pastures. Set your bar higher, for someone who is more emotionally mature, it sounds like you two are incompatible.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:15 PM on May 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
Guess what? 6 months is not that much of an investment. You can consider it a sunk cost. The whole career/jealousy thing is somewhat comparable to my situation, whenever I had a success, or friends, etc., it was met with a put down.
Also: the whole relationship, as yours seems to be right now, became about him and his issues and his feelings, and analyzing why he was behaving the way he was, and me trying to figure it out. Guess what? It doesn't matter.
There are lots of nice guys who are also good in bed, are supportive, and don't make snide comments. Nobody's perfect, but you have to draw the line somewhere, tons of good advice above, especially in regards to what if you had children with him, interacting with your family, etc. It's not your job to raise him into some enlightened man: many men know the right way to treat a woman, as a human being, and enjoy being intimate emotionally and having a best friend who is also a great lover.
Personally, I'd chalk it up to a learning experience, and wish him well, and move on to greener pastures. Set your bar higher, for someone who is more emotionally mature, it sounds like you two are incompatible.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:15 PM on May 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
He can do things that no man has done before, and there's been a few.
there are 3 billion men in the world and i bet plenty of them can do whatever that thing is, and probably some of them won't be a dumb piece of shit to you the rest of the time.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:23 PM on May 5, 2019 [53 favorites]
there are 3 billion men in the world and i bet plenty of them can do whatever that thing is, and probably some of them won't be a dumb piece of shit to you the rest of the time.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:23 PM on May 5, 2019 [53 favorites]
Ah ok so he’s a great lover and you don’t want to DTMFA because of that. Ok, so why not keep him around for the sex and “downgrade” him to being a FWB? Dan Savage recently gave similar advice (though the LW’s situation was pretty different, but I see quite a few similarities with yours). If this is what you really want to do, then say something like, “It’s been 6 months, and I think that’s a long enough time to determine if we want to continue for the long haul. I’m sorry to say that I don’t think things can work that way. However, you’re the best lover I’ve ever had and I still want to have sex if you’re into that.” It may sound like you’re saying he’s good enough to fuck, but not be in a relationship and in a way that’s true. However, the truth is that you’re not compatible emotionally and for a long term relationship but the sexual chemistry is undeniable. Whether he'll go for it and whether it'll work well this way is anyone's guess.
Either go that route, or breakup OR put in a *ton* of work to teach him How To Be In A Relationship And Good Partner. And to do that, you have to have it out with him. Definitely stop pretending to not have vulnerabilities (why are *you* doing that?). You’re not ok with the undercutting comments, the food comments; these things actually hurt, what is he trying to get at? Where is he coming from? No, it’s not him being “blunt, direct and logical” - he can make a choice to say mean things or not and right now he IS making a choice to say mean things. Ask if he’s actually willing to work on being a better partner, and if he is, maybe have some kind of verbal shorthand that whenever he makes a comment that hurts you, you say, “that was a mean comment and hurt my feelings.” He needs to apologize, mean it, and commit to doing the work to reflect on his behaviour and change it. It’s simple, but not easy. However, if he gives you backlash about it (he might be good for a couple of days/weeks/months then go back to his old ways, watch out for that), like “you’re too sensitive. I can’t be me around you. What happened to you? You used to be so confident” it’s really time to pack it in. This is someone who can’t see you for who you are and respect you. You can tell him he can go ahead and find someone who will put up with the meanness and newsflash: he won’t. If you get that response, ask him, why is he so invested in making those comments at the expense of someone that he supposedly likes and cares about? Then tell him to see a therapist to work out why he does this and how he can change.
A few more scattered thoughts:
I was his perfect woman and that if he cant make it work with me he can't with anyone
Putting you on a pedestal is never good.
Featureless face comment: On the one hand, I feel like this is him being REALLY clumsy because then he turns around and says that he means that you are pretty. Pretty people don’t have featureless faces? I think this is coming from a place of insecurity - maybe he felt incapable of doing a good portrait of you so he blamed it on you and insulted you. It’s really clumsy and actually pretty fucked up.
he seems to have offended a lot of girls he's dated
Have a conversation about this too. Again, why does he do this? Where is it coming from? What has he learned from these relationships? If he hasn’t learned anything, that’s a HUGE red flag. Ask him why he hasn’t reflected on these relationships. If he blames all his exes, that is really, really bad.
So he’s insecure about his work and (supposedly) his capability of being a good partner. We all have our insecurities, the key part is what is doing about them? Is he expecting that just by being with you things are going to be better for him? That if you don’t talk about your work successes, then he’s ok? And that because you’re so confident and can supposedly take his BS, that he doesn’t have to change?
I have no idea if he’ll change, I don’t think he will without therapy because this seems pretty deep seated, but what do I know. I think that downgrading him to a FWB is the best way to go IF you want to keep having sex with him, but I understand that this is not everyone’s cup of tea. Good luck figuring out what to do.
posted by foxjacket at 4:32 PM on May 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Either go that route, or breakup OR put in a *ton* of work to teach him How To Be In A Relationship And Good Partner. And to do that, you have to have it out with him. Definitely stop pretending to not have vulnerabilities (why are *you* doing that?). You’re not ok with the undercutting comments, the food comments; these things actually hurt, what is he trying to get at? Where is he coming from? No, it’s not him being “blunt, direct and logical” - he can make a choice to say mean things or not and right now he IS making a choice to say mean things. Ask if he’s actually willing to work on being a better partner, and if he is, maybe have some kind of verbal shorthand that whenever he makes a comment that hurts you, you say, “that was a mean comment and hurt my feelings.” He needs to apologize, mean it, and commit to doing the work to reflect on his behaviour and change it. It’s simple, but not easy. However, if he gives you backlash about it (he might be good for a couple of days/weeks/months then go back to his old ways, watch out for that), like “you’re too sensitive. I can’t be me around you. What happened to you? You used to be so confident” it’s really time to pack it in. This is someone who can’t see you for who you are and respect you. You can tell him he can go ahead and find someone who will put up with the meanness and newsflash: he won’t. If you get that response, ask him, why is he so invested in making those comments at the expense of someone that he supposedly likes and cares about? Then tell him to see a therapist to work out why he does this and how he can change.
A few more scattered thoughts:
I was his perfect woman and that if he cant make it work with me he can't with anyone
Putting you on a pedestal is never good.
Featureless face comment: On the one hand, I feel like this is him being REALLY clumsy because then he turns around and says that he means that you are pretty. Pretty people don’t have featureless faces? I think this is coming from a place of insecurity - maybe he felt incapable of doing a good portrait of you so he blamed it on you and insulted you. It’s really clumsy and actually pretty fucked up.
he seems to have offended a lot of girls he's dated
Have a conversation about this too. Again, why does he do this? Where is it coming from? What has he learned from these relationships? If he hasn’t learned anything, that’s a HUGE red flag. Ask him why he hasn’t reflected on these relationships. If he blames all his exes, that is really, really bad.
So he’s insecure about his work and (supposedly) his capability of being a good partner. We all have our insecurities, the key part is what is doing about them? Is he expecting that just by being with you things are going to be better for him? That if you don’t talk about your work successes, then he’s ok? And that because you’re so confident and can supposedly take his BS, that he doesn’t have to change?
I have no idea if he’ll change, I don’t think he will without therapy because this seems pretty deep seated, but what do I know. I think that downgrading him to a FWB is the best way to go IF you want to keep having sex with him, but I understand that this is not everyone’s cup of tea. Good luck figuring out what to do.
posted by foxjacket at 4:32 PM on May 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
So you’re dating an asshole, he’s basically acknowledged that he is one and that’s why he hasn’t been able to maintain a real relationship with other women and that he’s with you because you have thick skin (ie, you put up with it.)
I don’t know why you’re imagining that there’s some secret stash of ‘decent person’ hiding underneath. If there was, you’d know about it and he clearly has no intention of changing his ways, because a) he’s deliberately found someone who will put up with it so he doesn’t have to b) he knows he treats women badly and hasn’t changed for them, why would he change for you?
Basically he’s showing and telling you that what you have with him is all you’ll ever have. You’re not going to be the one to rehabilitate the bad boy, so either decide you’re ok with being with an immature jackass who gets off on insulting you or if you’re not ok with it, you know what to do.
posted by Jubey at 4:53 PM on May 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
I don’t know why you’re imagining that there’s some secret stash of ‘decent person’ hiding underneath. If there was, you’d know about it and he clearly has no intention of changing his ways, because a) he’s deliberately found someone who will put up with it so he doesn’t have to b) he knows he treats women badly and hasn’t changed for them, why would he change for you?
Basically he’s showing and telling you that what you have with him is all you’ll ever have. You’re not going to be the one to rehabilitate the bad boy, so either decide you’re ok with being with an immature jackass who gets off on insulting you or if you’re not ok with it, you know what to do.
posted by Jubey at 4:53 PM on May 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
I have dealt with people like this. They are often very insecure, fearful people, with incredibly negative interior monologues. They compensate for their fear and insecuirty by lashing out, demeaning others in a kind of "first strike" mentality. I find people like this occur on a spectrum and depending on how secure they feel, the behaviour can disappear almost entirely and only re-emerge when they're stressed etc. Others obviously always feel stressed all the time.
You seem to like this guy, and you haven't mentioned anything, so I would bring it up in a constructive way and see what he says, and what behaviours change etc. If he's genuinely willing and enthusiastic to change.
Otherwise, meh, I'm an old(er) bastard now, and honestly I can't be bothered with this crap in my late thirties. There's plenty of people who have their shit sorted out, I'll spend most of my time with them.
posted by smoke at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2019 [12 favorites]
You seem to like this guy, and you haven't mentioned anything, so I would bring it up in a constructive way and see what he says, and what behaviours change etc. If he's genuinely willing and enthusiastic to change.
Otherwise, meh, I'm an old(er) bastard now, and honestly I can't be bothered with this crap in my late thirties. There's plenty of people who have their shit sorted out, I'll spend most of my time with them.
posted by smoke at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2019 [12 favorites]
Your boyfriend is supposed to love you as you are, not make you feel like shit all the time.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:03 PM on May 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:03 PM on May 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
There are a lot of red flags here - hurt exes, calling a woman crazy, praising you for having "thick skin" (thus making it hard for you to speak up when he says hurtful things.... You sound like a smart, thoughtful person, and you can and should make accepting and supporting you completely a prerequisite for any guy to date you.
posted by thelastpolarbear at 5:08 PM on May 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by thelastpolarbear at 5:08 PM on May 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Here's the thing, if a guy can be empathetic, responsive and intuitive enough to read the very subtleties of body language enough to be a fucking amazing lover and please you fully there, he sure as fuck does NOT have difficulty doing that in regards to not negging the living shit out of you in simple conversation. Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey said it best:
“This loser isn’t even trying”.
posted by OnefortheLast at 6:01 PM on May 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
“This loser isn’t even trying”.
posted by OnefortheLast at 6:01 PM on May 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
...he admitted to me that he had written in his journal that I was his perfect woman and that if he cant make it work with me he can't with anyone...
Hey so you seem to be framing this as a good/sweet thing and I just want to gently suggest that it's actually... not. If I said "this is my perfect job; if I can't make it work here, I can't make anything work," it'd be because the job was so easy and/or well-suited to me that I couldn't possibly mess it up. Right? It's not actually the same as saying "I'll do whatever it takes to make it work," which I think is how you're interpreting his words. Instead this is just another variant on him telling you that he sees you as being invulnerable to his insults and endlessly willing to put up with bullshit. That's why, if he can't even make it work with that imaginary "you," he surely can't make it work with anyone else. Unfortunately, that "anyone else" includes the real-world you who is hurt by his remarks and can't keep pretending everything's okay forever.
posted by teremala at 6:34 PM on May 5, 2019 [14 favorites]
Hey so you seem to be framing this as a good/sweet thing and I just want to gently suggest that it's actually... not. If I said "this is my perfect job; if I can't make it work here, I can't make anything work," it'd be because the job was so easy and/or well-suited to me that I couldn't possibly mess it up. Right? It's not actually the same as saying "I'll do whatever it takes to make it work," which I think is how you're interpreting his words. Instead this is just another variant on him telling you that he sees you as being invulnerable to his insults and endlessly willing to put up with bullshit. That's why, if he can't even make it work with that imaginary "you," he surely can't make it work with anyone else. Unfortunately, that "anyone else" includes the real-world you who is hurt by his remarks and can't keep pretending everything's okay forever.
posted by teremala at 6:34 PM on May 5, 2019 [14 favorites]
He sounds exhausting, and I would start by asking him why he's so cool with hurting a lot of people with what he says. Because he is.
Funny story about the featureless face -- I used to model for artists, and once was sitting for some clients when one of them burst out with "Ugh, this is so hard, you're too pretty!" She was laughing and kind and explained what she meant warmly and was careful of how I felt. It's a real thing -- regular features are kind of dull to paint. (I mostly got popular because I could hold difficult poses for a long time.) But did you see how my client introduced the idea? It was on her -- she was having trouble, it wasn't my fault in any way. And she introduced the concept with a compliment, not by being a dick. Why did your boyfriend lead with a comment that wasn't kind?
It sounds like he would take a lot of work. I would in no way be willing to put that work in, but only you can answer for you. I'd at least start with my initial question -- why is he sticking with this style of communicating, when it hurts other people, who he presumably cares about?
posted by kalimac at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
Funny story about the featureless face -- I used to model for artists, and once was sitting for some clients when one of them burst out with "Ugh, this is so hard, you're too pretty!" She was laughing and kind and explained what she meant warmly and was careful of how I felt. It's a real thing -- regular features are kind of dull to paint. (I mostly got popular because I could hold difficult poses for a long time.) But did you see how my client introduced the idea? It was on her -- she was having trouble, it wasn't my fault in any way. And she introduced the concept with a compliment, not by being a dick. Why did your boyfriend lead with a comment that wasn't kind?
It sounds like he would take a lot of work. I would in no way be willing to put that work in, but only you can answer for you. I'd at least start with my initial question -- why is he sticking with this style of communicating, when it hurts other people, who he presumably cares about?
posted by kalimac at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
just my two cents, but - you shouldn't have to work this hard to tolerate a romantic partner, nor should you have to train him in "how to human 101." dump this immature sourpuss and find an actual adult who actually adores you. life's too short.
posted by the thought-fox at 7:22 PM on May 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by the thought-fox at 7:22 PM on May 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
You have spent more effort on describing him diplomatically to us than he has spent on being kind or tactful to you.
You deserve better. He is not doing you a favour by warning you of his dickishness in advance; he is printing a coupon for himself to use later.
posted by armeowda at 7:47 PM on May 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
You deserve better. He is not doing you a favour by warning you of his dickishness in advance; he is printing a coupon for himself to use later.
posted by armeowda at 7:47 PM on May 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
It's been 6 months, and this is really starting to affect you.
I knew a man almost exactly as you've described and I'll tell you what happens as time goes on...
You spend every time with him reassuring him that he's not fat or ugly, you assure him that he's perfect and sexy and hot as fuck, you make sure to give him extra thoughtful compliments and demonstrate how attracted you are to him.
The one single time you're feeling really down about weight you gained and mention to him how badly you feel, he just says yeah you did (gain weight)and gives you an off look and then proceeds to ignore you.
And it starts to affect you.
You excitedly share your progress at the gym with him, because you worked your fucking ass off, learned all you could, hit all your milestones and lifting standards, all so you could look hot just for him.
And he says, big fucking deal. Who cares.
And it starts to affect you.
You are so proud to return to school after dropping out 20 years ago, you actually get administrative recognition on your pretesting for admissions. You can't wait to share your news. You want to make him proud to be with you and be able to meanfully contribute to a life together.
He says, how in the fuck can you even think you could ever do school, you can't even manage your life as it is.
And it starts to affect you.
You can count on one hand every nice thing he's ever said and compliment he's given you. You remember each time and you get a bit of a sad pain in your stomach and keep trying desperately harder and harder to be fully perfect to earn a new one to add to that hand.
And it starts to affect you.
After a while longer, you realize you no longer want to reach out, to initiate, to try and get 9r be close with them, to share good news or something you think they'd find interesting, say good night, or make plans. Because you know you're going to get that biting remark in return. That one that makes your stomach hurt and your heart ache. That one that makes you wonder if he even actually likes you at all.
And it starts to affect you.
One day you'll look back and realize you yourself have become bitter and angry all the time and make them right back at him. And others in your life; it seems normal now to be an asshole really. You'll realize your confidence is gone, your self worth non existent. You realize it's been a long time since you felt happy and or excited about him.
Because it affected you.
And you stayed thinking it wouldn't.
posted by OnefortheLast at 8:13 PM on May 5, 2019 [29 favorites]
I knew a man almost exactly as you've described and I'll tell you what happens as time goes on...
You spend every time with him reassuring him that he's not fat or ugly, you assure him that he's perfect and sexy and hot as fuck, you make sure to give him extra thoughtful compliments and demonstrate how attracted you are to him.
The one single time you're feeling really down about weight you gained and mention to him how badly you feel, he just says yeah you did (gain weight)and gives you an off look and then proceeds to ignore you.
And it starts to affect you.
You excitedly share your progress at the gym with him, because you worked your fucking ass off, learned all you could, hit all your milestones and lifting standards, all so you could look hot just for him.
And he says, big fucking deal. Who cares.
And it starts to affect you.
You are so proud to return to school after dropping out 20 years ago, you actually get administrative recognition on your pretesting for admissions. You can't wait to share your news. You want to make him proud to be with you and be able to meanfully contribute to a life together.
He says, how in the fuck can you even think you could ever do school, you can't even manage your life as it is.
And it starts to affect you.
You can count on one hand every nice thing he's ever said and compliment he's given you. You remember each time and you get a bit of a sad pain in your stomach and keep trying desperately harder and harder to be fully perfect to earn a new one to add to that hand.
And it starts to affect you.
After a while longer, you realize you no longer want to reach out, to initiate, to try and get 9r be close with them, to share good news or something you think they'd find interesting, say good night, or make plans. Because you know you're going to get that biting remark in return. That one that makes your stomach hurt and your heart ache. That one that makes you wonder if he even actually likes you at all.
And it starts to affect you.
One day you'll look back and realize you yourself have become bitter and angry all the time and make them right back at him. And others in your life; it seems normal now to be an asshole really. You'll realize your confidence is gone, your self worth non existent. You realize it's been a long time since you felt happy and or excited about him.
Because it affected you.
And you stayed thinking it wouldn't.
posted by OnefortheLast at 8:13 PM on May 5, 2019 [29 favorites]
There is a guy out there for you. But this guy is so clearly not that guy.
And it’s not because of what you specifically described. It’s the fact that you just wrote a long, detailed, comprehensive description of everything that’s wrong with your relationship and I have no sense that there’s anything really right with it. Someone who is at the beginning of a truly long-term, happy, loving, committed relationship with a true partner doesn’t write questions like this.
The only thing you can do is put some of this to him directly. You can’t just hope for it together because it never will. Believe me, unless he knows exactly how this makes you feel, he’ll think everything is fine.. Tell him how his comments are making you feel, make him really understand it. And if he adapts, awesome! You might have something to work with. But if he doesn’t change his behavior (and he doesn’t sound like the kind of guy with the wherewithal), why on earth would you stay with him and allow yourself to be treated like that for the rest of your life? Because you will always feel this way if you stay with him and he doesn’t hear you.
Who you marry is probably the most consequential decision you will ever make. It changes your life. And that’s why you shouldn’t short change yourself when choosing a partner. It’s too important and we all deserve to find the right person.
posted by fso at 8:57 PM on May 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
And it’s not because of what you specifically described. It’s the fact that you just wrote a long, detailed, comprehensive description of everything that’s wrong with your relationship and I have no sense that there’s anything really right with it. Someone who is at the beginning of a truly long-term, happy, loving, committed relationship with a true partner doesn’t write questions like this.
The only thing you can do is put some of this to him directly. You can’t just hope for it together because it never will. Believe me, unless he knows exactly how this makes you feel, he’ll think everything is fine.. Tell him how his comments are making you feel, make him really understand it. And if he adapts, awesome! You might have something to work with. But if he doesn’t change his behavior (and he doesn’t sound like the kind of guy with the wherewithal), why on earth would you stay with him and allow yourself to be treated like that for the rest of your life? Because you will always feel this way if you stay with him and he doesn’t hear you.
Who you marry is probably the most consequential decision you will ever make. It changes your life. And that’s why you shouldn’t short change yourself when choosing a partner. It’s too important and we all deserve to find the right person.
posted by fso at 8:57 PM on May 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
Crediting your comments on his good points, he’s still not ready to be good to you or right for you. Maybe it’s permanent, maybe it’s temporary and related to work, maybe he’s got a lot of growth left to accomplish. In any event, that he says he thinks you’re great and can’t see making it work with anyone if he can’t with you, is not your problem.
Consider seeing other people, if you’re comfortable with that, so you can compare the way he treats you with how others do (but be alert for him cleaning up his act only so much as the competition requires). After all, he prophecized your future boyfriends.
If he can’t tolerate that, I’d move on. He’s not treating you well enough to expect to expect different.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:11 PM on May 5, 2019
Consider seeing other people, if you’re comfortable with that, so you can compare the way he treats you with how others do (but be alert for him cleaning up his act only so much as the competition requires). After all, he prophecized your future boyfriends.
If he can’t tolerate that, I’d move on. He’s not treating you well enough to expect to expect different.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:11 PM on May 5, 2019
there are 3 billion men in the world and i bet plenty of them can do whatever that thing is
There's probably some form of vibrator that can do whatever that thing is, and for less than $150.
posted by praemunire at 9:41 PM on May 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
There's probably some form of vibrator that can do whatever that thing is, and for less than $150.
posted by praemunire at 9:41 PM on May 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
If your man can’t outperform (who can) but still will not enthusiastically employ a Hitachi magic wand and a plug in lamp dimmer, trade him in for a newer model.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:50 PM on May 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:50 PM on May 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
as a man who used to be enough of this fellow to comment, i have a hunch how things are going to go if you stay with him: that is, eventually his bullshit will add up to the point where you literally won't want to do anything but get away from him. at that point, the one thing you'll hope and pray for is that he leaves you the fuck alone. he doesn't know what he wants, he doesn't know who he is, he doesn't really see you as a human, but an object through which he might understand himself. to be very honest, he's actually dangerous to you. you sound nice, and you deserve a person who doesn't speak until they consider whether or not what they're going to say might hurt you. in ten or twenty years, maybe this guy, MAYBE, this guy will be in a place where he can be a full partner in a relationship. but this doesn't have anything to do with you, to be real. please stop wasting your time with him, and begin the arduous but ultimately profoundly rewarding search for someone who actually wants to be your partner!
posted by rotten at 10:45 PM on May 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by rotten at 10:45 PM on May 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
Alas, The Best Ever in bed is frequently not the same as The Best Ever in life.
If only it were!
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:41 PM on May 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
If only it were!
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:41 PM on May 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Don't fall in love with someone's potential to not be an asshole.
posted by ananci at 1:01 AM on May 6, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by ananci at 1:01 AM on May 6, 2019 [11 favorites]
He asked me specifically what good looked like, and what I wanted to change about the relationship. I think he actively wanted guidance, and would be open to a talk about this.
Decide how much of this emotional labor you are willing to provide and for how long, and what results you expect to see in that time. Please don't negotiate this with him, but decide for yourself.
I also think that because I'm also quite sarcastic and -- well, British in the sense that piss-taking is the way that my family express humour --
He is not your brother or cousin or whoever. You can let him know that while this may be the dynamic of your (and his?) family of origin, you are looking for something different in a primary relationship.
posted by jaruwaan at 4:20 AM on May 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
Decide how much of this emotional labor you are willing to provide and for how long, and what results you expect to see in that time. Please don't negotiate this with him, but decide for yourself.
I also think that because I'm also quite sarcastic and -- well, British in the sense that piss-taking is the way that my family express humour --
He is not your brother or cousin or whoever. You can let him know that while this may be the dynamic of your (and his?) family of origin, you are looking for something different in a primary relationship.
posted by jaruwaan at 4:20 AM on May 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
If I sent my SO a photo of myself in a pretty dress and flower crown (where obvs I sent it because in that moment I felt like I looked especially cute or even beautiful) and he replied with a photo of a DOG?!?! I. Would. Go. Off. That alone makes me livid on your behalf.
Yes, some may say, "Oh, by sending that picture, you are fishing for compliments, you were setting him up, trying to get him to compliment you, and he was refusing to play along/enable you..." etc.
Perhaps there is always a little bit of that involved, any time we take a selfie and share it... I get that. I do. But in context, this would be a symptom of something I would not be able to ignore or let go. It's a microcosm of the overall situation, IMO.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:38 AM on May 6, 2019 [10 favorites]
Yes, some may say, "Oh, by sending that picture, you are fishing for compliments, you were setting him up, trying to get him to compliment you, and he was refusing to play along/enable you..." etc.
Perhaps there is always a little bit of that involved, any time we take a selfie and share it... I get that. I do. But in context, this would be a symptom of something I would not be able to ignore or let go. It's a microcosm of the overall situation, IMO.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 4:38 AM on May 6, 2019 [10 favorites]
My husband and I are also slightly sarcastic, jokey people. We do make fun of each other a lot. The big difference is, we make a big effort not to hurt each other or use jokes in a passive aggressive way.
For example, if my husband makes a joke that actually makes me feel bad, I'm comfortable saying 'that one was mean' and he'll apologise and reassure me. And then not go there again. He never makes jokes about anything he knows I'm insecure about. He is always, always supportive and thrilled for me when I succeed. He never tells me I'm too sensitive. Hell, sometimes I'll say 'you made fun of me a lot today, now you have to say five nice things about me' and he does.
If you tell him he's being mean when he's mean, do you think he'll feel bad and apologise? Or will he get defensive and act like you're too sensitive or overreacting? Do you ever feel like he's trying to make you feel bad on purpose? Because I would dump that guy in a heartbeat.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:54 AM on May 6, 2019 [11 favorites]
For example, if my husband makes a joke that actually makes me feel bad, I'm comfortable saying 'that one was mean' and he'll apologise and reassure me. And then not go there again. He never makes jokes about anything he knows I'm insecure about. He is always, always supportive and thrilled for me when I succeed. He never tells me I'm too sensitive. Hell, sometimes I'll say 'you made fun of me a lot today, now you have to say five nice things about me' and he does.
If you tell him he's being mean when he's mean, do you think he'll feel bad and apologise? Or will he get defensive and act like you're too sensitive or overreacting? Do you ever feel like he's trying to make you feel bad on purpose? Because I would dump that guy in a heartbeat.
posted by stillnocturnal at 4:54 AM on May 6, 2019 [11 favorites]
There are three major criteria for joking like this in relationships:
Is this the right time?
Is this the right place? (For example: are other people around and it might be embarrassing in front of others)
Is this the right subject matter? (For example: is it on a topic that’s off limits to my partner? And more to the point, do I know which topics are off limits?)
What would it be like to lay this out for your boyfriend? Do you think he’d be receptive? Does the idea of talking about this stress you out or fill you with dread? I think if you think about these questions, you’ll have your answer.
posted by CMcG at 5:36 AM on May 6, 2019
Is this the right time?
Is this the right place? (For example: are other people around and it might be embarrassing in front of others)
Is this the right subject matter? (For example: is it on a topic that’s off limits to my partner? And more to the point, do I know which topics are off limits?)
What would it be like to lay this out for your boyfriend? Do you think he’d be receptive? Does the idea of talking about this stress you out or fill you with dread? I think if you think about these questions, you’ll have your answer.
posted by CMcG at 5:36 AM on May 6, 2019
Someone with the username traqqot on Instagram posted:
"Imo the 'bad boy who's only nice secretly/after you get through his layers" trope in media functions as propaganda designed to get you to second guess yourself and your experiences in order to give bad men a chance. Some things need to be taken at face value and if he treats people like shit he is in fact a bad person even if he's nice to you sometimes. Stop looking for hidden meaning and depth in his actions. He's not misunderstood he's just an asshole and it's not your job to shovel through the shit to get to the disappointing 'good' parts"
I just love it. It's so true.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 5:46 AM on May 6, 2019 [21 favorites]
"Imo the 'bad boy who's only nice secretly/after you get through his layers" trope in media functions as propaganda designed to get you to second guess yourself and your experiences in order to give bad men a chance. Some things need to be taken at face value and if he treats people like shit he is in fact a bad person even if he's nice to you sometimes. Stop looking for hidden meaning and depth in his actions. He's not misunderstood he's just an asshole and it's not your job to shovel through the shit to get to the disappointing 'good' parts"
I just love it. It's so true.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 5:46 AM on May 6, 2019 [21 favorites]
I have dealt with people like this. They are often very insecure, fearful people, with incredibly negative interior monologues. They compensate for their fear and insecuirty by lashing out, demeaning others in a kind of "first strike" mentality.
I was one of these, and even after having been confronted by several people, it took a long time of reflection before I figured out what I was doing, and why, and resolved to change. The very first step in that process was to stop dumping my rage onto the people around me. (If I couldn't bring myself to confront the people who were hurting me, the very least I could do was stop passing it on.)
That's something he has to do himself, and it can only start when he truly realizes he has a problem, and chooses to change. You can't help him start the journey. It's all his.
Final point: there's a difference between sarcastic joking and intentional or uncaring cruelty. The latter are not signs of cluelessness, but indicators of contempt. It's actually not difficult to just shut up. He's not trying to hold his hostility back, he's choosing to give it to you. IOW, he's showing/telling you that he doesn't think enough of you to protect your feelings. Let him go.
posted by Lunaloon at 6:04 AM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was one of these, and even after having been confronted by several people, it took a long time of reflection before I figured out what I was doing, and why, and resolved to change. The very first step in that process was to stop dumping my rage onto the people around me. (If I couldn't bring myself to confront the people who were hurting me, the very least I could do was stop passing it on.)
That's something he has to do himself, and it can only start when he truly realizes he has a problem, and chooses to change. You can't help him start the journey. It's all his.
Final point: there's a difference between sarcastic joking and intentional or uncaring cruelty. The latter are not signs of cluelessness, but indicators of contempt. It's actually not difficult to just shut up. He's not trying to hold his hostility back, he's choosing to give it to you. IOW, he's showing/telling you that he doesn't think enough of you to protect your feelings. Let him go.
posted by Lunaloon at 6:04 AM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Further, Dressed To Kill, most of those media tropes were written by men!!
posted by amanda at 6:06 AM on May 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by amanda at 6:06 AM on May 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
He sounds like my ex-husband in the early days, so this may be a message to me-of-the-past rather than you-of-the-present: English humour doesn't mean jabs designed to put you "in your place". Being "amazing" in bed doesn't excuse a "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" mentality. When my lovely husband-of-the-present says or does something that hurts my feelings, he apologises and he makes an honest attempt to avoid hurting me in that way again. And when he hurts my feelings in a different way (because I am a sensitive person), he apologises and gives me a cuddle. He chose me because of my sensitivity - not because he saw me as someone he could break down over time (as my ex-husband slowly did, eventually destroying my confidence for years), but because he appreciates and values my sensitivity.
My ex-husband chose me because I was a bit overweight, very sensitive, and professionally accomplished. He bullied me - subtly at first - into starvation diets which were never enough for him, having a violent temper when (after marriage) I "defied" him. He enjoyed breaking me down. He showed me just enough vulnerability (subtly making me feel that my encouragement was what he needed, that I just needed to love him enough to break through his insecurities) to keep me in the relationship. That little voice in your head that says maybe he's amping up your emotional pain on purpose? Listen to it.
I am not you, your mileage may vary, but I felt I had to say this. You deserve emotional safety.
posted by pammeke at 6:10 AM on May 6, 2019 [13 favorites]
My ex-husband chose me because I was a bit overweight, very sensitive, and professionally accomplished. He bullied me - subtly at first - into starvation diets which were never enough for him, having a violent temper when (after marriage) I "defied" him. He enjoyed breaking me down. He showed me just enough vulnerability (subtly making me feel that my encouragement was what he needed, that I just needed to love him enough to break through his insecurities) to keep me in the relationship. That little voice in your head that says maybe he's amping up your emotional pain on purpose? Listen to it.
I am not you, your mileage may vary, but I felt I had to say this. You deserve emotional safety.
posted by pammeke at 6:10 AM on May 6, 2019 [13 favorites]
A good relationship should never require such massive amounts of self-editing. A healthy, good relationship means being able to share joy, accomplishments, and vulnerability without fear of mental injury. You should be free and comfortable to be you. He’s casually cruel and when called out, he wants YOU to show him how to be a decent caring human being. Do you want to be stuck carrying responsibility for him for the rest of your life? Do you want children?
I married someone clever and insecure and insensitive. YMMV — but I was exhausted by year two and wondering if life could be better. I’m now with someone who is reflexively kind and clever and sensitive. It’s nice.
posted by lemon_icing at 6:38 AM on May 6, 2019 [6 favorites]
I married someone clever and insecure and insensitive. YMMV — but I was exhausted by year two and wondering if life could be better. I’m now with someone who is reflexively kind and clever and sensitive. It’s nice.
posted by lemon_icing at 6:38 AM on May 6, 2019 [6 favorites]
A lot of people find barbed banter romantic, and it can be when it's a stand-in for romantic or sexual tension at the beginning of a relationship, but once that tension is punctured it can congeal into...just being mean to each other out of habit. I wouldn't want to come home every day feeling like I needed to be prepared for a roast battle. If you don't want to, either, it is totally okay to break up over this.
posted by superfluousm at 8:26 AM on May 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by superfluousm at 8:26 AM on May 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
Yes, some may say, "Oh, by sending that picture, you are fishing for compliments, you were setting him up, trying to get him to compliment you, and he was refusing to play along/enable you..."
YOU'RE ALLOWED TO WANT COMPLIMENTS FROM YOUR BOYFRIEND. TO SOLICIT THEM, EVEN.
Jeepers!!!!
posted by praemunire at 10:00 AM on May 6, 2019 [14 favorites]
YOU'RE ALLOWED TO WANT COMPLIMENTS FROM YOUR BOYFRIEND. TO SOLICIT THEM, EVEN.
Jeepers!!!!
posted by praemunire at 10:00 AM on May 6, 2019 [14 favorites]
You are not overreacting. Your feelings are valid. Your boyfriend is an asshole and you deserve better. Fucking dump him.
posted by a strong female character at 10:10 AM on May 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by a strong female character at 10:10 AM on May 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
The point at which, in hindsight, every single person who ends up in an abusive relationship comes to fully regret, is the point at which they stopped listening to their own bad/off feelings at things that were affecting them, and started listening to their SO, their friends/family, internet advice, "logic/honesty", rationalizing and justifying, focusing on the positives!, dismissing and making excuses for and away... all of their own initial instincts that This Thing may not in fact be a Good Thing.
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:58 AM on May 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by OnefortheLast at 10:58 AM on May 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yes, some may say, "Oh, by sending that picture, you are fishing for compliments, you were setting him up, trying to get him to compliment you, and he was refusing to play along/enable you..." etc.
those people are stupid. you send the people that you love photos of yourself (or of things you like) because you love them and, perhaps foolishly, believe that they love you as well, and are happy to see photos of you, no matter how you look in them. it's not a game of oneupmanship for anyone but stupid assholes.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:20 AM on May 6, 2019 [12 favorites]
those people are stupid. you send the people that you love photos of yourself (or of things you like) because you love them and, perhaps foolishly, believe that they love you as well, and are happy to see photos of you, no matter how you look in them. it's not a game of oneupmanship for anyone but stupid assholes.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:20 AM on May 6, 2019 [12 favorites]
Yes, some may say, "Oh, by sending that picture, you are fishing for compliments, you were setting him up, trying to get him to compliment you, and he was refusing to play along/enable you..." etc.
Not to mention... setting him up for what exactly? Playing along with what? Enabling what?
Like... setting up.... an opportunity for positive engagement? An opportunity to see your SO and recieve a nice picture of them to have on your phone? An opportunity to make your SO feel good about themselves?
Playing along with... basic, even playful relationship turn taking intimacy and bond building interactions?
Enabling what... a normal healthy relationship? Good feelings? Appreciation of a reciprocating SO who wants to be a kind person who says nice things?
The blasphemy!
"Some may say..." ignore those people. Fully. They're clearly extremely paranoid, mentally unwell and assume malicious intent and motive in every goddamn thing and nothing you ever do will please them as they're too busy playing armchair psycholgist analyzing your every move and looking for opportunities to declare warfare on their opponent. I mean their SO.
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:39 AM on May 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
Not to mention... setting him up for what exactly? Playing along with what? Enabling what?
Like... setting up.... an opportunity for positive engagement? An opportunity to see your SO and recieve a nice picture of them to have on your phone? An opportunity to make your SO feel good about themselves?
Playing along with... basic, even playful relationship turn taking intimacy and bond building interactions?
Enabling what... a normal healthy relationship? Good feelings? Appreciation of a reciprocating SO who wants to be a kind person who says nice things?
The blasphemy!
"Some may say..." ignore those people. Fully. They're clearly extremely paranoid, mentally unwell and assume malicious intent and motive in every goddamn thing and nothing you ever do will please them as they're too busy playing armchair psycholgist analyzing your every move and looking for opportunities to declare warfare on their opponent. I mean their SO.
posted by OnefortheLast at 11:39 AM on May 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
Like... setting up.... an opportunity for positive engagement? An opportunity to see your SO and recieve a nice picture of them to have on your phone? An opportunity to make your SO feel good about themselves?
Playing along with... basic, even playful relationship turn taking intimacy and bond building interactions?
Enabling what... a normal healthy relationship? Good feelings? Appreciation of a reciprocating SO who wants to be a kind person who says nice things?
This EXACTLY. Like, I know these guys that don't like to respond to (god forbid) whomen who might be "FISHING" for "COMPLIMENTS" - why?!? What is this weird thing?
First I thought it was "insecurity" reasons, then "freedom" reasons, then some kind of "I don't like to be MAN-IP-U-LATED" reasons... none of these reasons are good enough. Resisting the most basic opportunity for genuine positive interaction and building your partner up....?? that's a red flag... it means he's going to (whatever his reasons) wear you down by not giving you want you need.
Your needs are WORTHY. You are WORTHY.
And GEEZUS H. CHRISTINACHICKENBASKET - there are FABULOUS lovers out there that are not trash people!! Many!! Go out and enjoy yourself finding them because they totally exist and they'll blow this wet-blanket out of the water.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:59 AM on May 6, 2019 [9 favorites]
Playing along with... basic, even playful relationship turn taking intimacy and bond building interactions?
Enabling what... a normal healthy relationship? Good feelings? Appreciation of a reciprocating SO who wants to be a kind person who says nice things?
This EXACTLY. Like, I know these guys that don't like to respond to (god forbid) whomen who might be "FISHING" for "COMPLIMENTS" - why?!? What is this weird thing?
First I thought it was "insecurity" reasons, then "freedom" reasons, then some kind of "I don't like to be MAN-IP-U-LATED" reasons... none of these reasons are good enough. Resisting the most basic opportunity for genuine positive interaction and building your partner up....?? that's a red flag... it means he's going to (whatever his reasons) wear you down by not giving you want you need.
Your needs are WORTHY. You are WORTHY.
And GEEZUS H. CHRISTINACHICKENBASKET - there are FABULOUS lovers out there that are not trash people!! Many!! Go out and enjoy yourself finding them because they totally exist and they'll blow this wet-blanket out of the water.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:59 AM on May 6, 2019 [9 favorites]
Yes it would bother me. I think I’d end up responding in kind and then having big arguments after I intentionally insulted him just to even the score. Then we’d break up bc who has time for that shit.
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 12:05 PM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 12:05 PM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
This EXACTLY. Like, I know these guys that don't like to respond to (god forbid) whomen who might be "FISHING" for "COMPLIMENTS" - why?!? What is this weird thing
Right??!! Like what in the damn hell do these people even DO in a relationship if making each other feel good, supporting and building each other up, appeciating and admiring one another, responding and interacting favorably, and just being plain kind is just totally off the table.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
Right??!! Like what in the damn hell do these people even DO in a relationship if making each other feel good, supporting and building each other up, appeciating and admiring one another, responding and interacting favorably, and just being plain kind is just totally off the table.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
JEEPERS indeed! May I say- I am NOT accusing the OP of compliment-fishing. At all. You guys are so quick to slam. I guess I really failed in how I wrote that comment.
Please know that I believe to the Nth degree that it's OK to send cute selfies all damn day! And NEVER should you get a dog picture in reply, no matter what motivates you.
I also think the OP might benefit from this: Sick Systems: How to Keep Someone With You Forever
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 12:19 PM on May 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
Please know that I believe to the Nth degree that it's OK to send cute selfies all damn day! And NEVER should you get a dog picture in reply, no matter what motivates you.
I also think the OP might benefit from this: Sick Systems: How to Keep Someone With You Forever
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 12:19 PM on May 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for your comments. So many great ones. I am definitely keen to listen to your collective wisdom and act on it too. They gave me ammo to talk to him. I pretty much told him I was ending it, and he got very upset and said that I had every right to be upset about his comments, that I am not being over sensitive and that he agrees he needs to change and that this has been an issue before that he has been working on (!). He said he would never want to hurt me, and that I have only bought happiness to his life etc. Also that I am the only person he really wants to make a go of things with. He asked if I would give him one more chance... I am thinking about it.
We spoke about why he does this, and I suggested that he is defensive and taking a ‘first strike approach’. He cried a bit saying he doesn’t know why he would do that. Then we spoke about it coming from fear. And he admitted he’s terrified of ending up a lonely old man but also convinced he will and that maybe that’s where the ‘future girlfriend’ comments came from. I said he will end up alone if he keeps doing this as it will be self fulfilling prophecy.
He seemed shaken and like he was listening, and I know this is the first time he’s cried in front of a woman like this. I think he even hid his tears from his parents growing up. He is a very private and introverted person and he has told me before that he has let me get closer than anyone has before. Maybe this is a red flag, but maybe it is also a nice thing?
However, it was a long and protracted conversation and he also said things like he worries he is ‘not enough’ for me in terms of the emotions he feels, that he should be further along, that he should want to see me all the time, that he worries he is not able to have a normal close relationship. I said that in that case he is pretty much telling me the answer (that we should break up) and he then said that he isn’t saying he can’t, but that he’s afraid he can’t. I’m a bit torn.
I haven’t gone on about his nice qualities but I’m 34 and it’s rare I like someone this much. I think I could really love him. And, it’s strange to say in the context of my above message, but most of the time I can feel and see that he has feelings for me, which is also why these comments don’t always bother me. I can also see that he tries to express affection and complement me on a regular basis, even he is shy about it.
I am wondering whether there’s a slight cultural clash here which could be adding to this. He’s half italian and half Swiss, and grew up in France till he was 12. He only learnt English at 12 which is really quite late. His grasp of the language is excellent, but I do think that perhaps he can be clumsy with it too.
I don’t want to discount the effort people have gone to to help on this forum, and I do want to act on it. A few people (though not the majority) have said that I should perhaps confront him and give him a chance if he admits there is a problem. He has so far passed that test with flying colours. And because of my strength of feeling, I may see how things go for a month or two more. However, I will keep alert to the things people have warned me about, and be ready to act if I don’t see things drastically change. I hope this doesn’t come off as a cop out on my part. It’s just rare I feel this way about someone. I’ve dated so much over the past year or two and have filtered out a lot of men. One who makes me laugh like him - and who I can make laugh so much too - feels like gold dust. I hope this makes sense.
posted by starstarstar at 3:41 PM on May 6, 2019 [8 favorites]
We spoke about why he does this, and I suggested that he is defensive and taking a ‘first strike approach’. He cried a bit saying he doesn’t know why he would do that. Then we spoke about it coming from fear. And he admitted he’s terrified of ending up a lonely old man but also convinced he will and that maybe that’s where the ‘future girlfriend’ comments came from. I said he will end up alone if he keeps doing this as it will be self fulfilling prophecy.
He seemed shaken and like he was listening, and I know this is the first time he’s cried in front of a woman like this. I think he even hid his tears from his parents growing up. He is a very private and introverted person and he has told me before that he has let me get closer than anyone has before. Maybe this is a red flag, but maybe it is also a nice thing?
However, it was a long and protracted conversation and he also said things like he worries he is ‘not enough’ for me in terms of the emotions he feels, that he should be further along, that he should want to see me all the time, that he worries he is not able to have a normal close relationship. I said that in that case he is pretty much telling me the answer (that we should break up) and he then said that he isn’t saying he can’t, but that he’s afraid he can’t. I’m a bit torn.
I haven’t gone on about his nice qualities but I’m 34 and it’s rare I like someone this much. I think I could really love him. And, it’s strange to say in the context of my above message, but most of the time I can feel and see that he has feelings for me, which is also why these comments don’t always bother me. I can also see that he tries to express affection and complement me on a regular basis, even he is shy about it.
I am wondering whether there’s a slight cultural clash here which could be adding to this. He’s half italian and half Swiss, and grew up in France till he was 12. He only learnt English at 12 which is really quite late. His grasp of the language is excellent, but I do think that perhaps he can be clumsy with it too.
I don’t want to discount the effort people have gone to to help on this forum, and I do want to act on it. A few people (though not the majority) have said that I should perhaps confront him and give him a chance if he admits there is a problem. He has so far passed that test with flying colours. And because of my strength of feeling, I may see how things go for a month or two more. However, I will keep alert to the things people have warned me about, and be ready to act if I don’t see things drastically change. I hope this doesn’t come off as a cop out on my part. It’s just rare I feel this way about someone. I’ve dated so much over the past year or two and have filtered out a lot of men. One who makes me laugh like him - and who I can make laugh so much too - feels like gold dust. I hope this makes sense.
posted by starstarstar at 3:41 PM on May 6, 2019 [8 favorites]
You definitely don't owe a bunch of strangers on the internet any justification, or reasons for the decisions you make in your life. That said, your feeling the need to do so - justify not breaking up - may be something for you to think about and explore.
I will say that I have never once seen a relationship with these kinds of problems go well and become good and healthy. I have, however, witnessed a lot of women in your position spend a lot of really good years of their short, precious lives struggling trying to provide therapeutic support to their boyfriends. I was once one of those women. I did this for and with a lot of men. It was not worth it. Your mileage may vary, but your life is short. You do not have to spend it playing handmaid to some dude's emotional stuntedness, especially when it manifests as cruelty and meanness.
Take care of yourself and best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 4:21 PM on May 6, 2019 [19 favorites]
I will say that I have never once seen a relationship with these kinds of problems go well and become good and healthy. I have, however, witnessed a lot of women in your position spend a lot of really good years of their short, precious lives struggling trying to provide therapeutic support to their boyfriends. I was once one of those women. I did this for and with a lot of men. It was not worth it. Your mileage may vary, but your life is short. You do not have to spend it playing handmaid to some dude's emotional stuntedness, especially when it manifests as cruelty and meanness.
Take care of yourself and best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 4:21 PM on May 6, 2019 [19 favorites]
Best answer: Most of the advice you're getting here is spot on. This is one of those questions that shows me what an amazing group of people we have here on the green.
The commenters here who are saying you just need to communicate with the guy? They're trying to be helpful, but this is not what you need to hear. Before I met my husband I dated scores of people. I couldn't figure out why I was only meeting hostile guys. "My aunt likes you because you're not thin." "You have big ears." "What are you going to do when you're old and nobody wants you?" "There's a bump on your forehead. No, it's not a zit, it's probably cancer. You should really get it checked out." "Your hair is sticking up!" "You have a terrible fitness regime." "Why do you line your trash cans with plastic, don't you realize your killing the environment?" "You're a gamer? You mean you just play solitaire all the time?" "You have the widest feet I've ever seen." "You're pretty, but you're not pinup material." "When I said you're not beautiful, I meant I didn't think other people would think you're beautiful."
Okay, you get the gist? This shit went on and on and on for years, with a jillion different guys. I spent years in therapy, agonizing over what am I doing wrong? It MUST BE MY FAULT! I had a string of underwhelming therapists who subscribed to the super-sunny theory that all people mean well, and if they're not treating you right, you just have to teach them how to do that! See? It's easy!
Yeah, that would be a no.
The longest I ever stayed with a guy who treated me like dreck on a stick was three years. Pretty soon I was getting really good at smelling this stuff a mile away. And I got down to three minutes. I started walking out on dates who negged and dissed me. Yeah, I left guys sitting alone at restaurants. I cut things off before I'd waste further time with them. I felt powerful. And something about doing that tells you, deep down in your unconscious mind where your heart lives, that someone cares about your welfare. And that someone is you.
You can't control the world. You might get offered poison by openly abusive jerks as well as charming, sly manipulators. But you're no longer going to put your fingers around the cup and drink it down voluntarily.
I tried to do what those therapists told me. Hey, Dirk? It makes me feel bad when you say those things. I realize it's just a joke, but since it makes me uncomfortable, would you please just stop? Because, well, you love me and as a person who loves me, you probably don't want to do anything that would hurt me, even unintentionally. Right? Right?
They swore up and down they would change, but they didn't. They didn't change, because this issue you're posting today isn't about poor communication. Look, forget communication, there's no such thing. When you love someone and you're loved in return, communication happens. You don't have to take a course in it or get a stack of relationship books about it.
The reason some guys treat women like shit is that they're insecure and full of rage. Americans don't like to talk about rage. All we ever seem to do is try to cover it up, and the problem with it. But it's there. This guy's rage doesn't have anything to do with you. He' may not be trying to hurt you deliberately. But you still need to get out of the way. Maybe there's a guy unloading a shotgun in your yard. He might be upset at something or someone else. That doesn't matter to you.
What you need to do, is get out of the way.
You'll find someone who loves you and gives you great sex. The two aren't mutually exclusive. But you'll never find that person if you keep hanging out with this pathetic schmuck and making excuses for him.
Best of luck!
posted by cartoonella at 4:24 PM on May 6, 2019 [26 favorites]
The commenters here who are saying you just need to communicate with the guy? They're trying to be helpful, but this is not what you need to hear. Before I met my husband I dated scores of people. I couldn't figure out why I was only meeting hostile guys. "My aunt likes you because you're not thin." "You have big ears." "What are you going to do when you're old and nobody wants you?" "There's a bump on your forehead. No, it's not a zit, it's probably cancer. You should really get it checked out." "Your hair is sticking up!" "You have a terrible fitness regime." "Why do you line your trash cans with plastic, don't you realize your killing the environment?" "You're a gamer? You mean you just play solitaire all the time?" "You have the widest feet I've ever seen." "You're pretty, but you're not pinup material." "When I said you're not beautiful, I meant I didn't think other people would think you're beautiful."
Okay, you get the gist? This shit went on and on and on for years, with a jillion different guys. I spent years in therapy, agonizing over what am I doing wrong? It MUST BE MY FAULT! I had a string of underwhelming therapists who subscribed to the super-sunny theory that all people mean well, and if they're not treating you right, you just have to teach them how to do that! See? It's easy!
Yeah, that would be a no.
The longest I ever stayed with a guy who treated me like dreck on a stick was three years. Pretty soon I was getting really good at smelling this stuff a mile away. And I got down to three minutes. I started walking out on dates who negged and dissed me. Yeah, I left guys sitting alone at restaurants. I cut things off before I'd waste further time with them. I felt powerful. And something about doing that tells you, deep down in your unconscious mind where your heart lives, that someone cares about your welfare. And that someone is you.
You can't control the world. You might get offered poison by openly abusive jerks as well as charming, sly manipulators. But you're no longer going to put your fingers around the cup and drink it down voluntarily.
I tried to do what those therapists told me. Hey, Dirk? It makes me feel bad when you say those things. I realize it's just a joke, but since it makes me uncomfortable, would you please just stop? Because, well, you love me and as a person who loves me, you probably don't want to do anything that would hurt me, even unintentionally. Right? Right?
They swore up and down they would change, but they didn't. They didn't change, because this issue you're posting today isn't about poor communication. Look, forget communication, there's no such thing. When you love someone and you're loved in return, communication happens. You don't have to take a course in it or get a stack of relationship books about it.
The reason some guys treat women like shit is that they're insecure and full of rage. Americans don't like to talk about rage. All we ever seem to do is try to cover it up, and the problem with it. But it's there. This guy's rage doesn't have anything to do with you. He' may not be trying to hurt you deliberately. But you still need to get out of the way. Maybe there's a guy unloading a shotgun in your yard. He might be upset at something or someone else. That doesn't matter to you.
What you need to do, is get out of the way.
You'll find someone who loves you and gives you great sex. The two aren't mutually exclusive. But you'll never find that person if you keep hanging out with this pathetic schmuck and making excuses for him.
Best of luck!
posted by cartoonella at 4:24 PM on May 6, 2019 [26 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, sockermom. That hit home.
I’m going to keep my distance but not completely end it for the next two weeks. Then I’ll be on holiday on my own for two weeks which will give me some proper space. It may well be that I decide on that holiday that I don’t want to risk myself any more than I already have. Even if I don’t decide then, if he doesn’t substantially improve very soon and keep it going I promise - to myself, now - I will end it.
posted by starstarstar at 4:26 PM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
I’m going to keep my distance but not completely end it for the next two weeks. Then I’ll be on holiday on my own for two weeks which will give me some proper space. It may well be that I decide on that holiday that I don’t want to risk myself any more than I already have. Even if I don’t decide then, if he doesn’t substantially improve very soon and keep it going I promise - to myself, now - I will end it.
posted by starstarstar at 4:26 PM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Oh wow, cartoonella. Your comment is just... so spot on and so rarely said. I actually have been feeling like I’m going mad, as so many friends have said that he’s insecure and just need training etc - there’s this trope that men are clueless bumbling children that need to be trained which really annoys me. a couple of these friends are in relationships with people that have needed training and have improved on the surface but that I don’t trust to be good enough people enough of the time. One got married on the weekend to him and I think this really increased my anxiety (I was bridesmaid and have been heavily involved in the wedding). I kept thinking, if she’s ok with x and seemingly very happy, why am I so unhappy with y?
It’s interesting bringing up the gender thing. I have to agree, but it is so deeply entrenched most people don’t realise. Last year I dated three men who all said insulting things. One said I had ‘tiny nipples’. Another said my breasts ‘needed support’ etc. These were both older, disappointed men with a history of failed relationships. Luckily I let it get me down for a short time then told them to go away (there were other behaviours too).
The amount of well meaning people that have told me that ‘no one is perfect’ and I’m too sensitive... if it wasn’t for the fact that I grew up with a loving father who never said a cruel word to me in his life, perhaps I would believe them and allow this to happen. But when it keeps happening you do wonder whether it’s you and you’re just a bit mad and picky. I look back at the relationships I’ve had with kind and loving men though (therehave been a couple in particular) and I know in my heart of hearts that the problem is not me, even if it is SO much easier in many ways to think it is. Because it seems the good men are scarce.
I’m so sorry those things were said to you and I’m so glad you took your power back. I actually felt quite excited about going to talk to this guy today and like sticking up for myself felt right.
I need to think harder.
posted by starstarstar at 4:38 PM on May 6, 2019 [13 favorites]
It’s interesting bringing up the gender thing. I have to agree, but it is so deeply entrenched most people don’t realise. Last year I dated three men who all said insulting things. One said I had ‘tiny nipples’. Another said my breasts ‘needed support’ etc. These were both older, disappointed men with a history of failed relationships. Luckily I let it get me down for a short time then told them to go away (there were other behaviours too).
The amount of well meaning people that have told me that ‘no one is perfect’ and I’m too sensitive... if it wasn’t for the fact that I grew up with a loving father who never said a cruel word to me in his life, perhaps I would believe them and allow this to happen. But when it keeps happening you do wonder whether it’s you and you’re just a bit mad and picky. I look back at the relationships I’ve had with kind and loving men though (therehave been a couple in particular) and I know in my heart of hearts that the problem is not me, even if it is SO much easier in many ways to think it is. Because it seems the good men are scarce.
I’m so sorry those things were said to you and I’m so glad you took your power back. I actually felt quite excited about going to talk to this guy today and like sticking up for myself felt right.
I need to think harder.
posted by starstarstar at 4:38 PM on May 6, 2019 [13 favorites]
I don’t know you but I promise you that you aren’t the problem here.
Have you ever been in a situation where you think something mean or even just catty about someone, or you can just smell someone’s particular insecurity, and it would be really easy to say something that would sting them? But you choose not to, because that’s not nice and it’s not the kind of person you want to be, and it’s not pleasant to make someone feel bad? Then you know how easy it is to just not say that hurtful thing. It’s really pretty easy. It’s really almost harder to be actively mean! For some reason I can’t fathom a lot of men do the hurtful thing anyway. And you’re not picky to say that’s not good enough.
posted by sallybrown at 4:48 PM on May 6, 2019 [10 favorites]
Have you ever been in a situation where you think something mean or even just catty about someone, or you can just smell someone’s particular insecurity, and it would be really easy to say something that would sting them? But you choose not to, because that’s not nice and it’s not the kind of person you want to be, and it’s not pleasant to make someone feel bad? Then you know how easy it is to just not say that hurtful thing. It’s really pretty easy. It’s really almost harder to be actively mean! For some reason I can’t fathom a lot of men do the hurtful thing anyway. And you’re not picky to say that’s not good enough.
posted by sallybrown at 4:48 PM on May 6, 2019 [10 favorites]
Im just going to repeat what praemunire here mentioned...
>there are 3 billion men in the world and i bet plenty of them can do whatever that thing is
There's probably some form of vibrator that can do whatever that thing is, and for less than $150.
There's no such thing as not being able to find another partner who can't do better, and there's just as likely no such thing as a partner who can do better than a $150 vibe.
Do not ever put up with bullshit just for sex.
posted by OnefortheLast at 5:45 PM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
>there are 3 billion men in the world and i bet plenty of them can do whatever that thing is
There's probably some form of vibrator that can do whatever that thing is, and for less than $150.
There's no such thing as not being able to find another partner who can't do better, and there's just as likely no such thing as a partner who can do better than a $150 vibe.
Do not ever put up with bullshit just for sex.
posted by OnefortheLast at 5:45 PM on May 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Mod note: OP, moderator here. AskMe isn't a place for back-and-forth discussion between you and commenters, or ongoing comments with a lot of expanding on your story. The way it works here is: you've asked your question, people will answer; you can consider the answers to yourself, and optionally mark the ones you find most useful. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:26 PM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:26 PM on May 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
I 100% agree with Cartoonella.
Also, I think in your follow-ups you are still making excuses for this guy. Like, my husband is Brazilian and only learnt to speak English as a teenager. That doesn't cause him to say weird, insensitive stuff.
It is true that nobody is perfect, but many of us are in relationships with someone we feel is perfect for us. That doesn't mean that things are good all the time, but it does mean that we don't need to write these kinds of long, analytical questions about our relationships.
The number of times I had conversations with friends analysing my ex-boyfriend's behaviour during the relationship: hundreds.
The number of times I have had a conversation analysing my husband: literally not once. I just have never, ever needed to because he has always been exactly who he is and I have always known where I stand with him.
posted by thereader at 10:15 PM on May 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also, I think in your follow-ups you are still making excuses for this guy. Like, my husband is Brazilian and only learnt to speak English as a teenager. That doesn't cause him to say weird, insensitive stuff.
It is true that nobody is perfect, but many of us are in relationships with someone we feel is perfect for us. That doesn't mean that things are good all the time, but it does mean that we don't need to write these kinds of long, analytical questions about our relationships.
The number of times I had conversations with friends analysing my ex-boyfriend's behaviour during the relationship: hundreds.
The number of times I have had a conversation analysing my husband: literally not once. I just have never, ever needed to because he has always been exactly who he is and I have always known where I stand with him.
posted by thereader at 10:15 PM on May 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
This guy reminds me a bit of myself in high school (secondary). I was pretty blunt and sarcastic, not from want of confidence per se, but really falling into a "works for me" pattern as far as social interactions went. Maturity requires time and experience, so I would say that things between you and this fellow can be improved, but it could take years.
posted by Standard Orange at 1:58 AM on May 7, 2019
posted by Standard Orange at 1:58 AM on May 7, 2019
Hey OP, it’s great you were able to talk to him and get somewhere. However, that somewhere reveals how far he has to go and it’s not looking good.
He really, really just needs to grow up and it’s up to you whether you want to stick around and help him through that. He’s crying because he’s scared and ashamed of himself - but he should be doing that with a therapist, not dumping that on you. Him saying that he’s let you be closer than anyone else is not necessarily a good thing - it’s a lot for you to take on, to be that special person that he’s only ever let in. It could end up leading to, “how could you leave me? I was so open and honest with you! You’re the only one that listened and cared!” YES, it’s a red flag. But it’s one of those sneaky ones that appears as a compliment at first glance.
I said that in that case he is pretty much telling me the answer (that we should break up)
Yup. Listen to your inner voice. Please.
he then said that he isn’t saying he can’t, but that he’s afraid he can’t.
The technicalities don’t matter. He can’t. When people tell you about themselves, LISTEN.
I can feel and see that he has feelings for me, which is also why these comments don’t always bother me. I can also see that he tries to express affection and complement me on a regular basis, even he is shy about it.
Ok so you’re basically saying, “it’s ok that he says things that hurt me, because he does try to be affectionate and complement me, but he’s shy about it.” OP, c’mon. Seriously. Sorry to be harsh, but you’re really falling for this hook, line and sinker and I want you to want better for yourself.
This isn’t a cultural issue. He could still be Italian/Swiss and grew up in France until he was 12 and not say this shit and be this way. He could be British going back generations and say this shit and be this way.
Ok, so he’s admitted he has a problem. That’s great! However, there’s still a loooong way to go. What I don’t see in your follow ups is responsibility and accountability on his part. I see him feeling bad and crying about it once you’ve confronted him, but does he actually want to change? What is he willing to do in order to change? Will he go through with those actions? If he was serious about change, the responsible thing to do would be to break up with you and go and do the work. He’s not capable of being in a healthy relationship. His track record proves it and he’s also saying that, though not in those exact words. He wouldn’t cry and say some BS like “he’s afraid he can’t” and ask for another chance.
I kept thinking, if she’s ok with x and seemingly very happy, why am I so unhappy with y?
Because you’re a different person and have different needs and standards.
And about your friends and all these people telling you no one’s perfect and you’re too sensitive… All I can do is sigh and shake my head. I see a lot of OPs saying similar things about their friends and I’m just like, why is the world so invested in giving these manchildren a chance and not supporting and uplifting the women in these shitty relationships? Why are the friends’ advice always “give him a chance! You’re so X” and not “You deserve better. DTMFA.” Oh right, patriarchy.
you do wonder whether it’s you and you’re just a bit mad and picky.
BE A BIT MAD AND PICKY. Be more than a bit mad! Embrace your madness and pickiness! Once you’re comfortable in your own skin, you’ll attract a great guy who will love your madness and pickiness. And even if all those guys are gone and unavailable, you’ll be comfortable in your own skin. Win-win.
And I SO understand the feeling of thinking that the problem is oneself. It is so hard to get out of that mindset.
At the end of the day OP, you know what you want. It doesn’t matter what others think, be it your friends, internet strangers or this guy. You just need to believe more in what you already know.
posted by foxjacket at 6:00 PM on May 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
He really, really just needs to grow up and it’s up to you whether you want to stick around and help him through that. He’s crying because he’s scared and ashamed of himself - but he should be doing that with a therapist, not dumping that on you. Him saying that he’s let you be closer than anyone else is not necessarily a good thing - it’s a lot for you to take on, to be that special person that he’s only ever let in. It could end up leading to, “how could you leave me? I was so open and honest with you! You’re the only one that listened and cared!” YES, it’s a red flag. But it’s one of those sneaky ones that appears as a compliment at first glance.
I said that in that case he is pretty much telling me the answer (that we should break up)
Yup. Listen to your inner voice. Please.
he then said that he isn’t saying he can’t, but that he’s afraid he can’t.
The technicalities don’t matter. He can’t. When people tell you about themselves, LISTEN.
I can feel and see that he has feelings for me, which is also why these comments don’t always bother me. I can also see that he tries to express affection and complement me on a regular basis, even he is shy about it.
Ok so you’re basically saying, “it’s ok that he says things that hurt me, because he does try to be affectionate and complement me, but he’s shy about it.” OP, c’mon. Seriously. Sorry to be harsh, but you’re really falling for this hook, line and sinker and I want you to want better for yourself.
This isn’t a cultural issue. He could still be Italian/Swiss and grew up in France until he was 12 and not say this shit and be this way. He could be British going back generations and say this shit and be this way.
Ok, so he’s admitted he has a problem. That’s great! However, there’s still a loooong way to go. What I don’t see in your follow ups is responsibility and accountability on his part. I see him feeling bad and crying about it once you’ve confronted him, but does he actually want to change? What is he willing to do in order to change? Will he go through with those actions? If he was serious about change, the responsible thing to do would be to break up with you and go and do the work. He’s not capable of being in a healthy relationship. His track record proves it and he’s also saying that, though not in those exact words. He wouldn’t cry and say some BS like “he’s afraid he can’t” and ask for another chance.
I kept thinking, if she’s ok with x and seemingly very happy, why am I so unhappy with y?
Because you’re a different person and have different needs and standards.
And about your friends and all these people telling you no one’s perfect and you’re too sensitive… All I can do is sigh and shake my head. I see a lot of OPs saying similar things about their friends and I’m just like, why is the world so invested in giving these manchildren a chance and not supporting and uplifting the women in these shitty relationships? Why are the friends’ advice always “give him a chance! You’re so X” and not “You deserve better. DTMFA.” Oh right, patriarchy.
you do wonder whether it’s you and you’re just a bit mad and picky.
BE A BIT MAD AND PICKY. Be more than a bit mad! Embrace your madness and pickiness! Once you’re comfortable in your own skin, you’ll attract a great guy who will love your madness and pickiness. And even if all those guys are gone and unavailable, you’ll be comfortable in your own skin. Win-win.
And I SO understand the feeling of thinking that the problem is oneself. It is so hard to get out of that mindset.
At the end of the day OP, you know what you want. It doesn’t matter what others think, be it your friends, internet strangers or this guy. You just need to believe more in what you already know.
posted by foxjacket at 6:00 PM on May 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
Somewhere out there is a man who isn’t afraid he can’t do it, who doesn’t need handholding and endless discussion or therapy or arguing or tears to become a decent, kind human being who treats you like you matter. He just does it. Every second you stay with this guy who treats you like crap is a second you’re missing out on being with the right man. Go find him.
posted by Jubey at 8:42 PM on May 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 8:42 PM on May 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
and I know this is the first time he’s cried in front of a woman like this.
This jumped out at me. My first take was that it’s a huge lie intended to make you feel like he’s some kind of tragic hero you can save and redeem by getting him in touch with his emotions and vulnerability, it’s a pop culture trope, its fucking Reylo fanfiction. It’s bullshit.
Then there’s the possibility that this is actually true, and he really does have enough serious problems with women that he has NEVER cried in front of a female member of the species, in addition to sending you “you look like a dog” texts and spamming you with lame, generic misogynist jokes like “har har women need 10 suitcases to go on a weekend vacation” and the joke about you treating relationships like trashy books— like seriously, all of the examples you list arent just about him being mean, they’re all about him really disliking and disrespecting women, and dumping bizarre stereotypes on you. If this guy has never cried in front of any woman before, that doesn’t mean you are special, it means he sees women as so taboo, so inherently inhuman and other, that he is just 1000%, not fit or ready to be in a relationship. This guy hates women and still has old partners contacting him to confront him about being verbally abusive. Please take care of yourself here.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:53 PM on May 8, 2019 [7 favorites]
This jumped out at me. My first take was that it’s a huge lie intended to make you feel like he’s some kind of tragic hero you can save and redeem by getting him in touch with his emotions and vulnerability, it’s a pop culture trope, its fucking Reylo fanfiction. It’s bullshit.
Then there’s the possibility that this is actually true, and he really does have enough serious problems with women that he has NEVER cried in front of a female member of the species, in addition to sending you “you look like a dog” texts and spamming you with lame, generic misogynist jokes like “har har women need 10 suitcases to go on a weekend vacation” and the joke about you treating relationships like trashy books— like seriously, all of the examples you list arent just about him being mean, they’re all about him really disliking and disrespecting women, and dumping bizarre stereotypes on you. If this guy has never cried in front of any woman before, that doesn’t mean you are special, it means he sees women as so taboo, so inherently inhuman and other, that he is just 1000%, not fit or ready to be in a relationship. This guy hates women and still has old partners contacting him to confront him about being verbally abusive. Please take care of yourself here.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:53 PM on May 8, 2019 [7 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
He would describe himself as 'blunt','honest' and 'logical'. But is this just shorthand for being a bit of an insensitive dick?
Yes it is.
Break up with him. Tell him not to be a jerk. Then maybe he won't be a jerk to his next girlfriend.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:47 PM on May 5, 2019 [27 favorites]