Should I go with her?
April 21, 2019 8:35 PM Subscribe
My mother is going to try to catch my father in the midst of an affair. Should I accompany her for support?
My mother suspects that my father is having an affair. He has done this before throughout my childhood and teenage years. He goes out in the afternoons to "get some food" (we have food at home) and doesn't return for hours. He returns with food but it's a shop that would take only 15 minutes to do. Yes he is that brazen that he does not really attempt to hide it and has always been. My mother wants to be 100% sure that this is what he is up to by following him once he leaves.
I have always been, rightly or wrongly, a source of emotional support for my mother where my father has not and I am overly concerned for my mother's welfare. I know that if she sees anything she would not be able to handle it. I'm also concerned that when she confronts them he will be belittling and verbally abusive to her, humiliating her in front of whoever this woman is (he's an unpleasant person). Again my mother would break down if this happened.
I feel drained by all of this but I feel very worried about her dealing with these heavy emotions. She is in her mid 70s and he is in his early 80s. She is surprised that he is still behaving like this at his age and suspects he may be visting a sex worker instead. Either way she wants to catch him out.
The question is: should I go along with her? Why/Why not?
I should point out that she does not expect me to but that I really could not forgive myself for not being there for her at least to fight her corner when my father turns abusive (which he will). I also want to mention that she is going to do this so talking her out of it is not an option.
Thanks.
My mother suspects that my father is having an affair. He has done this before throughout my childhood and teenage years. He goes out in the afternoons to "get some food" (we have food at home) and doesn't return for hours. He returns with food but it's a shop that would take only 15 minutes to do. Yes he is that brazen that he does not really attempt to hide it and has always been. My mother wants to be 100% sure that this is what he is up to by following him once he leaves.
I have always been, rightly or wrongly, a source of emotional support for my mother where my father has not and I am overly concerned for my mother's welfare. I know that if she sees anything she would not be able to handle it. I'm also concerned that when she confronts them he will be belittling and verbally abusive to her, humiliating her in front of whoever this woman is (he's an unpleasant person). Again my mother would break down if this happened.
I feel drained by all of this but I feel very worried about her dealing with these heavy emotions. She is in her mid 70s and he is in his early 80s. She is surprised that he is still behaving like this at his age and suspects he may be visting a sex worker instead. Either way she wants to catch him out.
The question is: should I go along with her? Why/Why not?
I should point out that she does not expect me to but that I really could not forgive myself for not being there for her at least to fight her corner when my father turns abusive (which he will). I also want to mention that she is going to do this so talking her out of it is not an option.
Thanks.
What it the goal when she finds out? If he is up to no good, what does she want to happen? Does she want you to confront him? To what effect?
If it were me, I would try to discourage my mother from doing this. I would be unlikely to go with her if she insisted on pursuing it anyway. My parents were divorced. I am not a big fan of a child getting in the middle of a parent's relationship(s). If you are the emotional support for your mother, you can support her when she gets home. What is your relationship with your father?
Again, if it were me and I could afford it, I would pay someone else to follow him.
posted by AugustWest at 8:49 PM on April 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
If it were me, I would try to discourage my mother from doing this. I would be unlikely to go with her if she insisted on pursuing it anyway. My parents were divorced. I am not a big fan of a child getting in the middle of a parent's relationship(s). If you are the emotional support for your mother, you can support her when she gets home. What is your relationship with your father?
Again, if it were me and I could afford it, I would pay someone else to follow him.
posted by AugustWest at 8:49 PM on April 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
I really could not forgive myself for not being there for her at least to fight her corner when my father turns abusive (which he will). I also want to mention that she is going to do this so talking her out of it is not an option.
It seems like you’ve answered your own question. I don’t think either of you should go. She’s unhappy and that should be enough to leave him. But if you truly believe she can’t be dissuaded and you won’t forgive yourself for letting her go alone, your options are limited.
posted by greermahoney at 8:52 PM on April 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
It seems like you’ve answered your own question. I don’t think either of you should go. She’s unhappy and that should be enough to leave him. But if you truly believe she can’t be dissuaded and you won’t forgive yourself for letting her go alone, your options are limited.
posted by greermahoney at 8:52 PM on April 21, 2019 [7 favorites]
Your mother knows her husband is cheating on her, and apparently has been throughout the marriage, in the most disrespectful possible way, but instead of leaving him, she wants to follow him to the brothel or whatever?
I don't want to be unkind about your elderly mother, but she wants a fucked-up dramatic scene. She's an adult. If she insists on having it, you need to leave her to her fucked-up drama. Pick up the pieces afterwards if you feel it's your responsibility. But the further you can separate yourself from this borderline self-martydom, the better. In a very real sense, it's not your business.
posted by praemunire at 8:53 PM on April 21, 2019 [46 favorites]
I don't want to be unkind about your elderly mother, but she wants a fucked-up dramatic scene. She's an adult. If she insists on having it, you need to leave her to her fucked-up drama. Pick up the pieces afterwards if you feel it's your responsibility. But the further you can separate yourself from this borderline self-martydom, the better. In a very real sense, it's not your business.
posted by praemunire at 8:53 PM on April 21, 2019 [46 favorites]
Nope. This is not your issue to deal with. Their marriage is their problem, and they need to sort it out themselves. You get to deal with the drama in your own relationships. You are not responsible for the drama in theirs.
This sounds like a super messed-up family dynamic, and it is ok for you to refuse to play your assigned role. Tell your mother that you will help her leave your father, but you are not going to enable this terrible plan that she has.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:55 PM on April 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
This sounds like a super messed-up family dynamic, and it is ok for you to refuse to play your assigned role. Tell your mother that you will help her leave your father, but you are not going to enable this terrible plan that she has.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:55 PM on April 21, 2019 [11 favorites]
If you absolutely can't talk her out of this, could you talk her into hiring a private investigator? I don't know if financially that's feasible, and I really think the best answer is that she should just leave her husband, but if she insists on wanting visual proof, maybe it would be better to hire a PI for that.
Either way, I agree that you shouldn't go. I spent way too many years getting in the middle of my own parents' marriage problems, and letting my mother use me as her primary emotional support, and the best thing I ever did for myself was step back from all of that.
Even if your mother does go through with this and confronts your father and it ends badly, it's not your responsibility. Any repercussions are not your fault. None of this on you. Parents protect their children (or should) not the other way around. Repeat this over and over until it starts to sink in.
It is very hard to learn new habits when you grow up in this kind of dynamic, but you can break out of it. Start now.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:55 PM on April 21, 2019 [19 favorites]
Either way, I agree that you shouldn't go. I spent way too many years getting in the middle of my own parents' marriage problems, and letting my mother use me as her primary emotional support, and the best thing I ever did for myself was step back from all of that.
Even if your mother does go through with this and confronts your father and it ends badly, it's not your responsibility. Any repercussions are not your fault. None of this on you. Parents protect their children (or should) not the other way around. Repeat this over and over until it starts to sink in.
It is very hard to learn new habits when you grow up in this kind of dynamic, but you can break out of it. Start now.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:55 PM on April 21, 2019 [19 favorites]
What does she want to happen?
posted by amtho at 9:13 PM on April 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 9:13 PM on April 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
No. For the reasons other people wrote. I'm sorry your Mother set you up to be her emotional support person. Especially, that it has to do with your other parent...very poor personal boundaries on Mom's part. And Dad's too apparently.
posted by DixieBaby at 9:13 PM on April 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by DixieBaby at 9:13 PM on April 21, 2019 [4 favorites]
No no no, you don't want to get any of this on you. Don't go with her and do try to discourage her. Their dynamics are toxic, long-established and never-resolved. Should it lead to her being able to disengage from your abusive father, you can help then. There's not much chance here for rapprochement so you (and she) should discuss what the best thing that could happen (for her)?
posted by lois1950 at 9:15 PM on April 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by lois1950 at 9:15 PM on April 21, 2019 [1 favorite]
This sounds terrible and I would not do it, but as has been mentioned, I think you've answered your own question already.
Could you print this off and show it to a therapist or psychologist?
posted by easy, lucky, free at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2019
Could you print this off and show it to a therapist or psychologist?
posted by easy, lucky, free at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2019
Your choices are not only reduced to “abandon mom” or “support her by riding shotgun in a harebrained scheme.” This confrontation sounds like a bad idea - real life is not a soap opera. You can support her by taking her out for coffee, or helping her make an appointment to see a lawyer or therapist or doctor - something responsible and adult and constructive. You can support her by doing something that is focused on nurturing your relationship to her outside of this conflict, like going to the zoo or movies.
posted by cricketcello at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by cricketcello at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2019 [12 favorites]
I'm not going to tell you to go or not to go. That's not a topic about which I can really give you any decent advice.
What I do want to do is offer you my support. I feel a lot of the answers are a bit unrealistic and present a Polllyanna-ish view of the world. I don't see the world that way. In the world I know, people who are emotionally upset (especially about an issue has festered for years) most often can't be talked out of things they have set their mind on doing. Sitting down with your mom for a coffee and rationally explaining to her that this is a very bad idea isn't likely to work. I mean feel free to try, and I honestly and sincerely wish you luck in changing her mind. I just wouldn't bet the house on it happening.
If your mother feels she needs to see the act, in order to give herself the courage/blessing/push to finally leave her husband (or make some other change in her life), a private investigator might be the way to go. Seeing pictures might shield her from a nasty confrontation with your dad, but given the age of your parents, I could very well envision her not wanting to take her troubles to an outsider or having an inability to trust somebody to do this kind of deed for her.
No matter what you decide, please be kind to yourself. I know that's easier said than done. If you don't go and something happens to your mom, you'll likely beat yourself up with guilt. If you do go and get involved in your parents relationship, that will probably cause all kinds of issues for you as well.
You're in a terrible position, and you have my sympathy. I wish you the best of luck in resolving this that causes the least amount of harm to you and to your mother.
posted by sardonyx at 9:54 PM on April 21, 2019 [17 favorites]
What I do want to do is offer you my support. I feel a lot of the answers are a bit unrealistic and present a Polllyanna-ish view of the world. I don't see the world that way. In the world I know, people who are emotionally upset (especially about an issue has festered for years) most often can't be talked out of things they have set their mind on doing. Sitting down with your mom for a coffee and rationally explaining to her that this is a very bad idea isn't likely to work. I mean feel free to try, and I honestly and sincerely wish you luck in changing her mind. I just wouldn't bet the house on it happening.
If your mother feels she needs to see the act, in order to give herself the courage/blessing/push to finally leave her husband (or make some other change in her life), a private investigator might be the way to go. Seeing pictures might shield her from a nasty confrontation with your dad, but given the age of your parents, I could very well envision her not wanting to take her troubles to an outsider or having an inability to trust somebody to do this kind of deed for her.
No matter what you decide, please be kind to yourself. I know that's easier said than done. If you don't go and something happens to your mom, you'll likely beat yourself up with guilt. If you do go and get involved in your parents relationship, that will probably cause all kinds of issues for you as well.
You're in a terrible position, and you have my sympathy. I wish you the best of luck in resolving this that causes the least amount of harm to you and to your mother.
posted by sardonyx at 9:54 PM on April 21, 2019 [17 favorites]
I don't think you should go with her. I don't think she should go, but you said that "talking her out of it is not an option." I assume you've tried?
I'm biased here because I'm a sex worker (stripper). I realize that sex workers are often unwelcome in emotionally charged discussions about infidelity. Still, I think having a sex worker's perspective could be helpful here.
What would success look like here—for your mom, and for you? She catches him, and then what? You say that she will "not be able to handle it" and that she will "break down." What does that mean? Will she cry, scream, punch him, pass out from shock? You say that he will become "verbally abusive to her, humiliating her in front of whoever this woman is." So you stand by here and defend her verbally? It won't be a conversation, just a shouting match. There won't be a winners anymore than there will be a "successful" defense.
If your father is visiting a sex worker, the sex worker probably already knows that he is an "unpleasant person" who verbally abuses the woman he is in a relationship with. Maybe he's the same to the sex worker, maybe not. But men who are shitty to women they've made vows to rarely stop being shitty to women when they're paying the women for intimacy. Once in a blue moon, these men act better—though even in those cases, as a sex worker, I can tell clear as day that I'm getting the better end of the treatment (and I detest them for it). More often that not, though, the men are even worse to the sex workers. Because (1) who believes a sex worker? And (2) who cares? In practically every analysis of situations involving sex work, the well-being of sex workers is an afterthought—if it's thought of at all.
I also don't think your mother has fully considered physical safety. Catching someone "in the act" is a classic example of when things can get heated enough to become physical. Normal people can feel violent urges under such pressure. Maybe your mother, maybe your father, maybe this other woman. People get in each others' faces. People push other people away. It escalates from there. Even people who are good or reasonable or quiet or meek or whatever. And with due respect, I don't think most people can say for sure that they wouldn't become violent under those circumstances unless they've been through it.
If this other woman is a sex worker, depending on the circumstances surrounding the confrontation, she might fear being outed. Most sex workers I know are good and reasonable people, and I love them deeply. But do I know some who could become violent in an emotionally charged situation? Yeah. It's an industry that attracts desperate people. And even a non-desperate person can feel inclined to shove away an angry stranger who steps onto their turf. Also, if you spend enough time as a sex worker, you'll get a death threat from a customer's significant other. So a confrontation like this could easily feel like you're a few seconds away from being killed if you don't make a Big Move Right Now to stop it from happening.
I worry that by pointing this out, you'll be more inclined to go (to protect her physically). I still don't think you should. Nothing good can come of this soap-opera confrontation. By accompanying your mother, you are still supporting the spectacle, even if you state otherwise.
Instead, if you have to be involved, focus all of your efforts on trying to give your mother whatever emotional validation she thinks she would get from this encounter. She wants to confirm her suspicions with her own eyes, probably because your father has been gaslighting her for decades. She wants to prove that she's not crazy. And she's not! You know that she's not. So tell your mother that you believe her, 100%, and that you will not believe her any more or any less if she catches him in the act, and that you will back her up to others who might not believe her. (I know that this is a simplification, and that it is so hard to actually convince someone in a scenario like this, and you have my empathy there. But in terms of providing active support to your mother, I do think this is the least-shitty of your shitty options.)
In toxic relationships like this, catching someone "in the act" rarely makes people feel as good as they think it will—short term or long term. Leaving almost always does—frequently short term, and always long term.
I'm so sorry that you and your mother are in this terrible situation.
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 10:15 PM on April 21, 2019 [40 favorites]
I'm biased here because I'm a sex worker (stripper). I realize that sex workers are often unwelcome in emotionally charged discussions about infidelity. Still, I think having a sex worker's perspective could be helpful here.
What would success look like here—for your mom, and for you? She catches him, and then what? You say that she will "not be able to handle it" and that she will "break down." What does that mean? Will she cry, scream, punch him, pass out from shock? You say that he will become "verbally abusive to her, humiliating her in front of whoever this woman is." So you stand by here and defend her verbally? It won't be a conversation, just a shouting match. There won't be a winners anymore than there will be a "successful" defense.
If your father is visiting a sex worker, the sex worker probably already knows that he is an "unpleasant person" who verbally abuses the woman he is in a relationship with. Maybe he's the same to the sex worker, maybe not. But men who are shitty to women they've made vows to rarely stop being shitty to women when they're paying the women for intimacy. Once in a blue moon, these men act better—though even in those cases, as a sex worker, I can tell clear as day that I'm getting the better end of the treatment (and I detest them for it). More often that not, though, the men are even worse to the sex workers. Because (1) who believes a sex worker? And (2) who cares? In practically every analysis of situations involving sex work, the well-being of sex workers is an afterthought—if it's thought of at all.
I also don't think your mother has fully considered physical safety. Catching someone "in the act" is a classic example of when things can get heated enough to become physical. Normal people can feel violent urges under such pressure. Maybe your mother, maybe your father, maybe this other woman. People get in each others' faces. People push other people away. It escalates from there. Even people who are good or reasonable or quiet or meek or whatever. And with due respect, I don't think most people can say for sure that they wouldn't become violent under those circumstances unless they've been through it.
If this other woman is a sex worker, depending on the circumstances surrounding the confrontation, she might fear being outed. Most sex workers I know are good and reasonable people, and I love them deeply. But do I know some who could become violent in an emotionally charged situation? Yeah. It's an industry that attracts desperate people. And even a non-desperate person can feel inclined to shove away an angry stranger who steps onto their turf. Also, if you spend enough time as a sex worker, you'll get a death threat from a customer's significant other. So a confrontation like this could easily feel like you're a few seconds away from being killed if you don't make a Big Move Right Now to stop it from happening.
I worry that by pointing this out, you'll be more inclined to go (to protect her physically). I still don't think you should. Nothing good can come of this soap-opera confrontation. By accompanying your mother, you are still supporting the spectacle, even if you state otherwise.
Instead, if you have to be involved, focus all of your efforts on trying to give your mother whatever emotional validation she thinks she would get from this encounter. She wants to confirm her suspicions with her own eyes, probably because your father has been gaslighting her for decades. She wants to prove that she's not crazy. And she's not! You know that she's not. So tell your mother that you believe her, 100%, and that you will not believe her any more or any less if she catches him in the act, and that you will back her up to others who might not believe her. (I know that this is a simplification, and that it is so hard to actually convince someone in a scenario like this, and you have my empathy there. But in terms of providing active support to your mother, I do think this is the least-shitty of your shitty options.)
In toxic relationships like this, catching someone "in the act" rarely makes people feel as good as they think it will—short term or long term. Leaving almost always does—frequently short term, and always long term.
I'm so sorry that you and your mother are in this terrible situation.
posted by Peppermint Snowflake at 10:15 PM on April 21, 2019 [40 favorites]
My first worry would be that OP's father would turn physically violent if caught in flagrante delicto.
posted by alidarbac at 10:17 PM on April 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by alidarbac at 10:17 PM on April 21, 2019 [3 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks for the responses so far. I just wanted to address a few things.posted by taz (staff) at 12:13 AM on April 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
1. I do not know for sure that my father is cheating. He cheated some 20 years ago and so we are both suspicious because of that and his current behaviour. I do not trust him, he lies a lot about everything even the very miniscule. We have no relationship to speak of. I don't like him. I think she just wants to see it with her own eyes to know for sure so she can stop wondering rather than to be dramatic. My guess (just a guess) is if you have been cheated on before and stayed with the person then you will always worry about the whereabouts of your partner.
2. My parents are from different cultural backgrounds (one Mediterranean, one African) and we live in England. My mother is Catholic and my father is Christian which at their age means they will not divorce. Ever. That's not happening. My mother's biggest fear is that he will bring another woman to the family home to live there.
3. The culture of getting a lawyer, seeing a therapist etc. is just not theirs. It's not even mine. I don't even understand what getting a lawyer means. It's alien to me. We are not middle class people.
4. My mother is not financially independent. She could not survive on her own. At her age this will not change. She has no one. No friends, no other family.
5. Considering all these things I hope you understand that my question is more along the lines of "Should I go along with her to provide her with physical safety and emotional support or should I leave her to face shock and humiliation on her own?" She needs my support. I find it draining but I love her deeply and I want to do what I can to ease the pain.
I get that an adult, as your collective demographic sees it, supports themselves emotionally but this is not her background. At all. I know it's healthier but I cannot erase her cultural background from her psyche.
Thanks.
Well, this is a terrible idea -- both for her and for you. But like sardonyx, I subscribe to the "people do things that are terrible ideas all the time" school of thought. And you write that you "really could not forgive myself for not being there for her at least to fight her corner when my father turns abusive." I want to try to talk you out of this opinion -- what good does it do for you to get in the middle of this? what could possibly be "won" by fighting in her corner? could you not just say to her "mom, you know he's just going to say a bunch of mean things that aren't true" or "I'll be waiting here in the car to cheer you up and tell you that all the awful things he said aren't true?" But if you really couldn't forgive yourself for not going, then yeah, go. But you really shouldn't go. This is a terrible dynamic, and putting yourself in the middle just drags you into the muck of it as well. Better to stay a bit apart from it -- then you'll be better able to help your mom pull herself out of the muck, to hand her a clean towel, and so on. If you go and participate in the argument and just get really upset yourself, then you're another wrestler in the ring, someone who is also really upset and needs support. Better to be on the sidelines of the fight, focused on supporting her as her coach / cheerleader / helper.
posted by salvia at 12:19 AM on April 22, 2019
posted by salvia at 12:19 AM on April 22, 2019
With regards to this part of your update - "She has no one. No friends, no other family" - this isn't what you asked, but it seems like a really important thing to work on regardless of anything else. Is there no local Catholic community she can be part of that could offer support in general and support in this particular situation?
Have you worked out the specifics of how following your father would happen? Would you be following him on foot, or by car? If he pulls up to some apartment building and goes inside, would that be proof for you, or would you need to see who he was actually visiting?
Have you talked about what you would do if you did find out he was cheating? Or is your mother really hoping that following him will prove his innocence? The question of what to do in the aftermath seems like the most important one to work out, even more than the question of whether to follow him in the first place or not.
You asked whether going with her was a good idea, but provided many reasons why you think you need to. What concerns prompted your doubts, then?
posted by trig at 1:58 AM on April 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
Have you worked out the specifics of how following your father would happen? Would you be following him on foot, or by car? If he pulls up to some apartment building and goes inside, would that be proof for you, or would you need to see who he was actually visiting?
Have you talked about what you would do if you did find out he was cheating? Or is your mother really hoping that following him will prove his innocence? The question of what to do in the aftermath seems like the most important one to work out, even more than the question of whether to follow him in the first place or not.
You asked whether going with her was a good idea, but provided many reasons why you think you need to. What concerns prompted your doubts, then?
posted by trig at 1:58 AM on April 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
Also, is your father part of a religious community and is she connected to it, or could she become connected to it, in any way? If her greatest fear is really that he would bring someone else into the home, and if religion really is a powerful force in your father's life, then it seems like her best insurance against that is having a connection to the leaders of his religious community such that everyone can count on their disapproval if your father does ever do such a thing.
If your father has ties to a religious community and she does not currently have any connection with it, then maybe you could put off the surveillance plan in favor of first laying a groundwork with the leaders of this community.
posted by trig at 2:07 AM on April 22, 2019
If your father has ties to a religious community and she does not currently have any connection with it, then maybe you could put off the surveillance plan in favor of first laying a groundwork with the leaders of this community.
posted by trig at 2:07 AM on April 22, 2019
You're in the UK, that means there are some resources for you locally. The local churches should have some parish marriage resources for wives in difficult situations and there is women's refuge and legal advice. It's patchwork and not well funded but compared to many countries, it's pretty good and can be reasonably culturally sensitive if it's in a local area. Your mum and you need a bigger support network. I had to dig up some advice for a runaway in her twenties recently and was surprised how much was available comparatively. Mumsnet was a useful starting point for figuring out how the systems worked but maybe a UK mefite can give you better advice on specifics.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:41 AM on April 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:41 AM on April 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
"Should I go along with her to provide her with physical safety and emotional support or should I leave her to face shock and humiliation on her own?"
The way you have framed it here sounds like you have already made up your mind, but I urge you to listen to the answers here and reconsider. If she is not going to leave him, not going to see a therapist, not going to reach out to anyone but you for support, why bother following him? Just assume the worst and then make decisions based on that.
For what it is worth, my grandfather started doing stuff like this when he had taken up smoking again after quitting for most of his life, and didn't want his wife to know.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:21 AM on April 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
The way you have framed it here sounds like you have already made up your mind, but I urge you to listen to the answers here and reconsider. If she is not going to leave him, not going to see a therapist, not going to reach out to anyone but you for support, why bother following him? Just assume the worst and then make decisions based on that.
For what it is worth, my grandfather started doing stuff like this when he had taken up smoking again after quitting for most of his life, and didn't want his wife to know.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:21 AM on April 22, 2019 [1 favorite]
I second posting this question to mumsnet, on the relationships forum. (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships) I would include the info you added in your update here.
There are lots of wise and supportive women on there, who have been through what you and your mum are going through. Although you'll also get some similar replies to those here, there are more likely to be other women from the UK who come from similar cultural backgrounds.
posted by EllaEm at 5:40 AM on April 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
There are lots of wise and supportive women on there, who have been through what you and your mum are going through. Although you'll also get some similar replies to those here, there are more likely to be other women from the UK who come from similar cultural backgrounds.
posted by EllaEm at 5:40 AM on April 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
This situation is pretty much like a situation where someone is being catfishes or falling for a mail order bride - it’s a fantasy in your mother’s head that this proof or confrontation will change things. It might, if she were going to leave or your dad were going to change. But it won’t. Unless there isn’t an affair, in which case it will be a happy ending?
I can tell that from some inaccuracies in your answer - the Catholic Church doesn’t prohibit civil divorce, it prohibits adultery and so civilly divorced Catholics can be in communion, just not date anyone else. Also, in a divorce she could look for social supports (pension/welfare) as well as spousal support.
So, what we know is that your mother is unhappy and has a fantasy that this confrontation will change something. When you have a family member fantasizing like that, you can ask them questions, genuine ones. What does she want out of it? To feel different? What else could she do in her life that would make her feel better? The one thing she may learn is that she really is miserable.
Should you go along? This will sound cold, but I wouldn’t. Providing a shield from the reality of her choices and situation will only prolong the fantasy that this step is going to change anything that couldn’t be changed without it. Definitely be there for the aftermath but you’re not required to pretend that this is a rational step.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:49 AM on April 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
I can tell that from some inaccuracies in your answer - the Catholic Church doesn’t prohibit civil divorce, it prohibits adultery and so civilly divorced Catholics can be in communion, just not date anyone else. Also, in a divorce she could look for social supports (pension/welfare) as well as spousal support.
So, what we know is that your mother is unhappy and has a fantasy that this confrontation will change something. When you have a family member fantasizing like that, you can ask them questions, genuine ones. What does she want out of it? To feel different? What else could she do in her life that would make her feel better? The one thing she may learn is that she really is miserable.
Should you go along? This will sound cold, but I wouldn’t. Providing a shield from the reality of her choices and situation will only prolong the fantasy that this step is going to change anything that couldn’t be changed without it. Definitely be there for the aftermath but you’re not required to pretend that this is a rational step.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:49 AM on April 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
If someone wanted to do something I completely disagreed with, I would not go along with them as support. That's enabling, in my mind.
posted by Pig Tail Orchestra at 7:01 AM on April 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Pig Tail Orchestra at 7:01 AM on April 22, 2019 [4 favorites]
My mother's biggest fear is that he will bring another woman to the family home to live there.
If he's that kind of person, what does she think is going to happen if she goes and stages a scene at whatever place outside the home he's cheating on her at?
No one gets to the point your mom is at (in a relatively free country for women, anyway) without choosing to participate for many years in a dynamic that is extremely toxic but nonetheless gives them something. Your mother staging what apparently both of you know will be an episode of shock and humiliation for her is just another chapter in that dynamic. It will give her another hit of whatever her secondary gain is. It won't change his behavior, except maybe for the worse. The more you participate in this, the more charged it becomes and the more it's validated as a way to live. The kindest thing to do is to focus your energies on helping your mom engage outside the home socially in ways that seem culturally appropriate (many older Christian ladies live for their church-based socializing) and seek other forms of support as suggested above. Loving and supporting people sometimes means not facilitating their worst impulses.
I have a family member who is a compulsive nonstop liar and I know how maddening it can be, but nothing, nothing will change that behavior or get you the satisfaction of "catching them out." They will lie in the face of all evidence and, as a backup line of defense, they will do their best to shift the blame to you. Unless your goal is to change your own behavior by giving yourself the confirmation you need to get out of that person's life, it's a futile endeavor. And it doesn't sound like your mom is at that stage.
posted by praemunire at 7:48 AM on April 22, 2019 [7 favorites]
If he's that kind of person, what does she think is going to happen if she goes and stages a scene at whatever place outside the home he's cheating on her at?
No one gets to the point your mom is at (in a relatively free country for women, anyway) without choosing to participate for many years in a dynamic that is extremely toxic but nonetheless gives them something. Your mother staging what apparently both of you know will be an episode of shock and humiliation for her is just another chapter in that dynamic. It will give her another hit of whatever her secondary gain is. It won't change his behavior, except maybe for the worse. The more you participate in this, the more charged it becomes and the more it's validated as a way to live. The kindest thing to do is to focus your energies on helping your mom engage outside the home socially in ways that seem culturally appropriate (many older Christian ladies live for their church-based socializing) and seek other forms of support as suggested above. Loving and supporting people sometimes means not facilitating their worst impulses.
I have a family member who is a compulsive nonstop liar and I know how maddening it can be, but nothing, nothing will change that behavior or get you the satisfaction of "catching them out." They will lie in the face of all evidence and, as a backup line of defense, they will do their best to shift the blame to you. Unless your goal is to change your own behavior by giving yourself the confirmation you need to get out of that person's life, it's a futile endeavor. And it doesn't sound like your mom is at that stage.
posted by praemunire at 7:48 AM on April 22, 2019 [7 favorites]
I would completely go along but I'm not saying that's right. I would be there to witness with her and I would stop her doing anything beyond having her witness. Then I would take her out for coffee/tea vent and debrief. but first I would call a domestic violence line and get counselling. My worry is that your father would harm your mother. I would also encourage her to talk to her priest. it may give her comfort or advice in a way she would be receptive to.
posted by biggreenplant at 7:51 AM on April 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by biggreenplant at 7:51 AM on April 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
I really could not forgive myself for not being there for her at least to fight her corner when my father turns abusive (which he will).
Then go.
Yes, your mother shouldn't do this, but you've already said there's no way to talk her out of it. Yes, it's common, especially in western cultures, not to get involved in stupid things family members do and to just wash your hands of them, but that doesn't mean it's the best decision for you. If she's going into a building, at the very least, you can stand outside in case she needs help or you need to call the police if the situation gets violent. If that happens, you don't want to be living with knowing you could have been there and you decided to let her handle it. Regret is a terrible thing.
I am overly concerned for my mother's welfare.
You love your mom and want to help her. Unfortunately, that often gets defined as pathological, and maybe in some situations it is, but it's a mistake to assume that's the case.
posted by FencingGal at 8:00 AM on April 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
Then go.
Yes, your mother shouldn't do this, but you've already said there's no way to talk her out of it. Yes, it's common, especially in western cultures, not to get involved in stupid things family members do and to just wash your hands of them, but that doesn't mean it's the best decision for you. If she's going into a building, at the very least, you can stand outside in case she needs help or you need to call the police if the situation gets violent. If that happens, you don't want to be living with knowing you could have been there and you decided to let her handle it. Regret is a terrible thing.
I am overly concerned for my mother's welfare.
You love your mom and want to help her. Unfortunately, that often gets defined as pathological, and maybe in some situations it is, but it's a mistake to assume that's the case.
posted by FencingGal at 8:00 AM on April 22, 2019 [9 favorites]
I get that an adult, as your collective demographic sees it, supports themselves emotionally but this is not her background. At all. I know it's healthier but I cannot erase her cultural background from her psyche.
I mean, geez, why'd you ask us, then? Why even pose this question without any cultural background?
If you don't want to take the advice of our collective demographic, then my suggestion to you is to ask someone of your mother's cultural background this question. Does she attend a church? Can you talk to her priest?
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:05 AM on April 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
I mean, geez, why'd you ask us, then? Why even pose this question without any cultural background?
If you don't want to take the advice of our collective demographic, then my suggestion to you is to ask someone of your mother's cultural background this question. Does she attend a church? Can you talk to her priest?
posted by chainsofreedom at 8:05 AM on April 22, 2019 [8 favorites]
I can tell that from some inaccuracies in your answer - the Catholic Church doesn’t prohibit civil divorce, it prohibits adultery and so civilly divorced Catholics can be in communion, just not date anyone else.
This is technically true, but a lot of older Catholics still interpret the rules as meaning you absolutely can't get divorced. When I was a child in the 60s, a friend of my grandmother's was told by her priest that she had to stay in her abusive marriage, but in the 70s, a friend of my mom's was advised by her priest to get a divorce (and asked how she had endured the situation for so long). It's very possible the OP's mom believes divorce is out of the question because she's Catholic.
posted by FencingGal at 8:11 AM on April 22, 2019
This is technically true, but a lot of older Catholics still interpret the rules as meaning you absolutely can't get divorced. When I was a child in the 60s, a friend of my grandmother's was told by her priest that she had to stay in her abusive marriage, but in the 70s, a friend of my mom's was advised by her priest to get a divorce (and asked how she had endured the situation for so long). It's very possible the OP's mom believes divorce is out of the question because she's Catholic.
posted by FencingGal at 8:11 AM on April 22, 2019
Given your update, I'd suggest that you offer to be your mom's private investigator and follow him, or get a friend to follow him, or attach an electronic tag to his satchel, and report back to her. My guess is that he's not having an affair, but is idling at the pub, on sitting on a park bench, and being coy as a power ploy.
posted by at at 8:35 AM on April 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by at at 8:35 AM on April 22, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think you should try and explore with her what would happen after she follows your father to wherever he goes. Fairly often people haven't really thought of anything after the confrontation and the emotions that they are expecting to have (although their actual emotions may be different).
And then, if you are set on going with her, what will you do after you've both followed your father? If it turns out that he's having an affair with a woman, or with a man, or he's taken up drinking or drugs, or he's doing something completely harmless? Think it through in advance including all the worst case scenarios, have a way of getting both you and your mum out of there, have some place in mind to go if you don't want to go back to your parent's place (eg a cafe, or perhaps your place or a friends), under what circumstances would you call the police?
You'll probably get more practical advice from the mumsnet relationship board as recommended. I would still strongly encourage you to think about your own role in this. You describe it all as an inevitable set of things happening to you. You may well not be able to change the events. But you have power over the way you interact with them, it might be helpful to be honest with yourself about the tradeoffs you are making.
posted by plonkee at 8:38 AM on April 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
And then, if you are set on going with her, what will you do after you've both followed your father? If it turns out that he's having an affair with a woman, or with a man, or he's taken up drinking or drugs, or he's doing something completely harmless? Think it through in advance including all the worst case scenarios, have a way of getting both you and your mum out of there, have some place in mind to go if you don't want to go back to your parent's place (eg a cafe, or perhaps your place or a friends), under what circumstances would you call the police?
You'll probably get more practical advice from the mumsnet relationship board as recommended. I would still strongly encourage you to think about your own role in this. You describe it all as an inevitable set of things happening to you. You may well not be able to change the events. But you have power over the way you interact with them, it might be helpful to be honest with yourself about the tradeoffs you are making.
posted by plonkee at 8:38 AM on April 22, 2019 [5 favorites]
My mother's biggest fear is that he will bring another woman to the family home to live there.
I am pretty sure that's not allowed in either the Catholic or Christian faiths... And - well, civilly you can only legally have one spouse at a time. Perhaps she doesn't understand that she has rights within her home - even if your parents do not own it, it is her residence just as much as it is his.
She wants closure, she wants absolute proof - I can understand why she wants to do this, I think it's a bad idea to go, but she will need support. Can't you both just go and take some pictures from a distance? Does she really need the dramatic scene and stress this will cause? (might even need to do this a couple times)
And - she has members of her faith community - her priest - and you - that is a start. And financially, there could be spousal support - but there is also government assistance, and I am pretty sure that while it could be considered "horrible" and stigmatizing, staying in an abusive relationship where she even fears that he will bring another woman into the home is also stigmatizing.
posted by jkaczor at 1:00 PM on April 22, 2019
I am pretty sure that's not allowed in either the Catholic or Christian faiths... And - well, civilly you can only legally have one spouse at a time. Perhaps she doesn't understand that she has rights within her home - even if your parents do not own it, it is her residence just as much as it is his.
She wants closure, she wants absolute proof - I can understand why she wants to do this, I think it's a bad idea to go, but she will need support. Can't you both just go and take some pictures from a distance? Does she really need the dramatic scene and stress this will cause? (might even need to do this a couple times)
And - she has members of her faith community - her priest - and you - that is a start. And financially, there could be spousal support - but there is also government assistance, and I am pretty sure that while it could be considered "horrible" and stigmatizing, staying in an abusive relationship where she even fears that he will bring another woman into the home is also stigmatizing.
posted by jkaczor at 1:00 PM on April 22, 2019
My bet is that he's not having an affair, just going out, maybe some flirting with waitresses, etc., doing unnecessary errands, and just basically feeling independent and out of the rut. Having some part of his life that's private and his own. Lots of people need that. But I don't know him.
Anyway, is there some reason your mom can't just, you know, ask? And tell her own feelings? Like, I'm concerned you're having an affair. Are you? Where do you go when you "go out for food"?
posted by ctmf at 2:32 PM on April 22, 2019
Anyway, is there some reason your mom can't just, you know, ask? And tell her own feelings? Like, I'm concerned you're having an affair. Are you? Where do you go when you "go out for food"?
posted by ctmf at 2:32 PM on April 22, 2019
my question is more along the lines of "Should I go along with her to provide her with physical safety and emotional support or should I leave her to face shock and humiliation on her own?" She needs my support. I find it draining but I love her deeply and I want to do what I can to ease the pain.
It sounds like you've made up your mind already , but have you considered that this might not be the best way to ease her pain? Both of you might be seriously underestimating how difficult it could be for her, and for you, if her suspicions are proven right. That's why a more neutral party, like a private investigator, would be a good idea.
posted by rpfields at 8:10 PM on April 22, 2019
It sounds like you've made up your mind already , but have you considered that this might not be the best way to ease her pain? Both of you might be seriously underestimating how difficult it could be for her, and for you, if her suspicions are proven right. That's why a more neutral party, like a private investigator, would be a good idea.
posted by rpfields at 8:10 PM on April 22, 2019
Hi OP, this is hard. I kind of understand the position you're in, and have a cultural background that I don't know is similar to yours (Chinese, born in Canada, parents were immigrants). I want to speak to the role of playing emotional support to your mom for your entire life. Given your parents' ages, I'm thinking you're 30s or 40s? Either way it's a loooong time to be in this role and it's not something you can snap out of overnight. My older sister (mid 40s) was in a similar position for our mom since she was 12. (Dad was abusive to our mom.) I only learned of this a couple of years ago and it suddenly explained a lot for me. She never realized it was wrong until I pointed it out to her, once she mentioned what mom was doing. Now she's in the position of having to deal with the emotions/grief around that on top of living with cancer (diagnosed a couple of years ago) and it's pretty rough.
Anyway, what I've observed about my sister and mom's codependent relationship is that my sister would definitely act protective of her, speak on her behalf, act as her agent. Of course she would - mom was putting her in that position and telling her everything, emotionally dumping on her. I would always wonder why my sister would know all this stuff (and be hurt that mom wasn't also telling me these things - now I realize that I was spared. :/ ) My sister would also act like she would know what was going to happen and most of the time, it turned out that she was wrong. So that's what I'm seeing you do there: "I know that if she sees anything she would not be able to handle it. I'm also concerned that when she confronts them he will be belittling and verbally abusive to her, humiliating her in front of whoever this woman is (he's an unpleasant person). Again my mother would break down if this happened." You're managing her emotions for her and that's not ok - for you or her. On the one hand, I don't want to question what you know, because you know her, and yourself, better than me. At the same time, I really wonder if your "prediction" will really come true? I also understand being on tenterhooks and thinking, "What if I'm right and it really happens? Then I'll have to clean up the mess when she comes home." It's a terrible position to be in.
All you can really do is save yourself. You say that you are drained by this. Totally understandable. So was my sister, yet she never learned how to put in those boundaries. At some point, you have to tell mom, no. And the rest is up to her. You telling her no is a really healthy thing for you, and that could have positive effects on her, in that she does something healthy for herself as a result. No guarantees of course.
You also say that she doesn't expect you to go - so don't go. You say you're concerned he will turn abusive - does she have this concern too?
OP, this is really complex and I don't really have an answer for you. None of us can answer your question of whether or not you should go with her. At some point you need to decide how long you'll continue this role for - until she dies? I don't know if this is or isn't the right time to decide this now (with your mom wanting to catch him out) but you need to focus on YOU and less on your mom. Captain Awkward is a really great blog to learn about putting in boundaries. Also the books Codependent No More and Beyond Codependency.
posted by foxjacket at 9:53 AM on April 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
Anyway, what I've observed about my sister and mom's codependent relationship is that my sister would definitely act protective of her, speak on her behalf, act as her agent. Of course she would - mom was putting her in that position and telling her everything, emotionally dumping on her. I would always wonder why my sister would know all this stuff (and be hurt that mom wasn't also telling me these things - now I realize that I was spared. :/ ) My sister would also act like she would know what was going to happen and most of the time, it turned out that she was wrong. So that's what I'm seeing you do there: "I know that if she sees anything she would not be able to handle it. I'm also concerned that when she confronts them he will be belittling and verbally abusive to her, humiliating her in front of whoever this woman is (he's an unpleasant person). Again my mother would break down if this happened." You're managing her emotions for her and that's not ok - for you or her. On the one hand, I don't want to question what you know, because you know her, and yourself, better than me. At the same time, I really wonder if your "prediction" will really come true? I also understand being on tenterhooks and thinking, "What if I'm right and it really happens? Then I'll have to clean up the mess when she comes home." It's a terrible position to be in.
All you can really do is save yourself. You say that you are drained by this. Totally understandable. So was my sister, yet she never learned how to put in those boundaries. At some point, you have to tell mom, no. And the rest is up to her. You telling her no is a really healthy thing for you, and that could have positive effects on her, in that she does something healthy for herself as a result. No guarantees of course.
You also say that she doesn't expect you to go - so don't go. You say you're concerned he will turn abusive - does she have this concern too?
OP, this is really complex and I don't really have an answer for you. None of us can answer your question of whether or not you should go with her. At some point you need to decide how long you'll continue this role for - until she dies? I don't know if this is or isn't the right time to decide this now (with your mom wanting to catch him out) but you need to focus on YOU and less on your mom. Captain Awkward is a really great blog to learn about putting in boundaries. Also the books Codependent No More and Beyond Codependency.
posted by foxjacket at 9:53 AM on April 23, 2019 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I wouldn’t go because I think this is such a monumentally bad idea I wouldn’t want anything to do with it. Look, she knows he’s having an affair, he knows she knows, he isn’t bothering to hide it and hasn’t hidden any of the others. Whatever she would do if she followed him and found him with a mistress? She should just do that now. Whatever she finds isn’t going to change the underlying problem, which is that she’s married to a verbally abusive unfaithful husband. If she wants to leave him she can already do that. If she wants proof so he has to admit what he’s done, she’s on a hiding to nothing because she already knows he’ll lie about it when she catches him. If she just wants to feel like she’s been vindicated, well she already has been hasn’t she? Everyone knows what he’s up to.
She is still trying to “win” at his game. But she never will, because he’s making the rules up to suit himself as he goes along. The only way for her to win is to stop playing.
posted by tinkletown at 8:47 PM on April 21, 2019 [36 favorites]